Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Shivan Hunter on September 03, 2010, 07:55:30 pm
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[20:43:21] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> you tevs suck
[20:43:36] <@Axem> :o
[20:43:40] <@Axem> they do not!
[20:43:54] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> CIVILIAN MURDERERS
[20:43:58] <@Axem> they blow hot hot plasma
[20:44:06] <@Axem> if you know what i mean
[20:44:23] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> YOU WILL ANSWER FOR YOU WAR CRIMES
[20:44:26] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> your*
[20:44:27] <Ravenholme> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war
[20:44:35] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> YOU FRAKKERS KILLED A FRAKKING ELDER
[20:44:38] <@Axem> my only crime
[20:44:40] <@Axem> is caring
[20:44:47] <Ravenholme> Oh noes
[20:44:50] <Ravenholme> We killed one of your leaders
[20:44:52] <Ravenholme> My my
[20:44:58] <Ravenholme> That never happens in war
[20:45:14] <Ravenholme> You know, the whole concept of a decapitation strike clearly doesn't exist
[20:45:16] <Ravenholme> My bad
[20:45:47] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> The Shivans attack the destroyers. WELL GUESS WHAT YOU ARE, TEV BASTARDS
[20:46:11] <@Axem> shivans could supernova sol
[20:46:12] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> YOU'LL BRING THE SHIVAN WRATH ONTO THE ENTIRE TERRAN RACE
[20:46:16] <@Axem> thatll show those punks
[20:46:26] <Ravenholme> Yes, we could. So surrender now and make things easy
[20:46:37] <@Axem> surrunder to the shivans?
[20:46:48] <Ravenholme> If you just gave up your illegitimate government and accepted GTVA rule, none of this would have happened
[20:47:05] <Ravenholme> But then, what can you expect from self-centered hippy terrorists
[20:47:22] <@Axem> :<
[20:47:51] <Ravenholme> No one to blame but yourself, fed scum
[20:47:58] <@Axem> why dont you go back to vega and wipe out 10 orions to feel better
[20:48:17] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> You militaristic killers call your home system's government illegitimate? WE are closer to enlightenment than we have ever been. YOU are the illegitimate government.
[20:49:28] <Ravenholme> "Enlightenment" means nothing when the destroyers gather at the gates and you divide us and accept the rule of a government that would probably try and hug the Shivans into oblivion
[20:49:38] * @Axem wanders off
[20:49:41] * @Axem finds a comet
[20:49:58] <Ravenholme> The GTVA is structured around repulsing the Shivan threat, only we can marshall humanities forces in such a way so as to have ANY hope of fending them off
[20:50:19] <DarthGeek|OpenGL> You think you can fight them. You moronic, arrogant, warlike barbarians. Don't you understand what happened at Capella?!
[20:50:55] <Ravenholme> Oh noez, they blew up a star - is that any reason to roll over and say "You win"? No you pathetic, arrogant little weakling
[20:51:18] <Caiaphas> If anyone brings the wrath of the destroyers upon us, it'll be the UEF.
[20:51:38] <Ravenholme> (Yeah, Noemi is totally talking to the Shivans)
[20:51:43] <Caiaphas> The shivans gave Laporte the schematics for a shivan comm node. Two guesses what they're gonna do with it.
It started with an Admiral Steele discussion, and now it's going into more "spoiler discussion"territory... but I love getting in character. :D
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Axem is looking for comets? Death to the Gef scum!
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Pffft. GTVA doesn't have to roll over and let the Shivans kill them, GTVA doesn't have to deal with the Shivans PERIOD if they don't keep inciting their wrath.
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You're so sure about how exactly the Shivans think you're willing to be ****ed the moment you're wrong and they come after you?
You so sure exactly why they do what they do, all their motives and agendas?
Really now?
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The UEF is the only legitimate authority in Sol system. They will not surrender their ships.
Sol may have been part of GTA, but the change of regime was legitimate. GTVA doesn't really have any good arguments for calling UEF illegitimate.
Of course, the GTVA has a history of violently subduing factions that attempt to secede from the Alliance (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/NTF_Rebellion), so actually there's nothing new on that regard. Except that UEF leadership doesn't use violently xenophobic rhetorics to acquire a following.
As to why they are resisting GTVA... well, that should be obvious. They are defending their homes and their way of life. Nothing new there either. People don't like to be meddled with. GTVA comes into Sol and tries to tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. They're in their homes and in their heads and they haven't the right. They're meddlesome.
And no, to my best knowledge the Ubuntu party did not in fact utilize Paxilon hydrochlorate on the population of Earth to gain control, or resort to any other illegitimate measures.
GTVA's best argument for the war is not that the UEF would be illegitimate regime, but their concern that the Ubuntu-ruled humanity would not be able to deal with external threats.
This argument has several problems, however. First of all it assumes that Ubuntu-grown people would not be able to adapt to do the necessary things demanded by circumstances; I should think that by the time of War in Heaven Part 1, that would have been demonstrably proven false already.
Secondly, it assumes that Ubuntu-ruled humanity would face the same external risks as GTVA-ruled humanity. This may or may not be the case; more on this further on (GTVA's assumption is that Shivans want to destroy humanity, which to me doesn't seem to be the case).
Thirdly, it presents an implied claim that the humanity under GTVA leadership would fare demonstrably and meaningfully better against the external threats - specifically, Shivans - than humanity led by Ubuntu. There is no substantial evidence to support this claim. Either faction would crumble should the Shivans really decide to put the pedal to the metal. I don't think either the Great War or Second Shivan Incursion culminating to Capella incident show that the Shivans would have true drive to destroy humanity. It seems to me rather that they have quite different interests as a whole. Obviously they have much more resources than they have used against the GTA, PVE and GTVA - why haven't they used their full might if, as postulated, they want to destroy both Vasudans and Humans?
True, the Lucifer destroyed Vasuda Prime. It tried to destroy Earth (and in the Sanctuaryverse, succeeded). But what was the ultimate consequence of Shivan activities during and after the Great War?
Before, there were two factions (humans and vasudans) that had fought a war of attrition for fifteen years or thereabouts. After a few hectic months of fighting a new threat, these factions formed a unified front which after the war resulted in the formation of Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance. There's no denying that most likely a huge amount of Vasudans perished in the glassing of Vasuda Prime, but how many human and vasudan lives would have been lost had the war continued?
Would the T-V war have gone on forever? Or if one faction won, what would it have meant for the other faction? Xenocide? Slavery? Integration into the surviving faction as second-class citizens (cheeky prawns)?
Similarly in Capella incident, lots of people lost their lives. But to me it seems that their deaths were not the primary objective of the Shivans, more like collateral damage. If they had wanted to invade or destroy the whole GTVA space, they could have done so. Demoralized and disarrayed, the GTVA fleets could not have matched the Juggernaut fleet of the Shivans, at least for long. Instead, they contained their Sathanas armada into the Capella system and blew it up, those maniacs.
Clearly, blowing up Capella was higher on their list of priorities than destroying humanity or vasudans for that matter.
It can be concluded that the GTVA's fear of Shivans - while for a good reason - is slightly off the mark. Shivans should be feared for what they can do and what they are willing to do to achieve their (as a whole, unknown) goals; they seem to have about as much concern for their own losses as human or vasudan losses, which is about none. However, so far they haven't in fact shown clear desire to completely eradicate all human and/or vasudan life. If they had wanted to do so, they would have done so.
Instead, they once applied a discrete amount of force against humans and vasudans, resulting in loss of Vasudan homeworld and the defeat of this Shivan task force while en route to Earth; resulting in unification of Terran and Vasudan factions and ending a long war of attrition.
As to what comes to capella incident, no one really can say for sure what their aims there were. The only certainty is that they wanted to go to Capella and blow it up, and they did, regardless of the opposition.
So, as a summary: It is a mistake to assume that shivans' goals would be so simple as to destroy humanity or vasudanity; they seem to have some agenda or agendas hidden behind their hostility. And as a final question: Why did they capture Bosch and the Iceni's command crew if their aim was to destroy humanity? Why not just... blow them up?
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Let's also not forget what brought down the Shivans in the first place: Big, interstellar wars.
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I feel prompted to remind everyone on both sides of the debate that the Shivans still wanted us all dead even after we showed we could play nice.
Filthy Fed hippies. Nothing you do or don't do matters. Just roll over now, and you might live longer.
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Federal reliance on spinning gravity sections on the majority of their warships will be their undoing. Because eventually their crews will experience nausea, vomiting, and dizziness.
Leaving our non spinny crews to simply push them into hedges.
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I feel prompted to remind everyone on both sides of the debate that the Shivans still wanted us all dead even after we showed we could play nice.
Referring to what specific (canon) case of Shivan activity?
The one after 15 years of war?
Or the one that occurred after some rather questionable research and developement in Shivan technology coupled with an attempted coup and subsequent military activity (Silent Threat and ST:R, whichever way you look at it)?
Or maybe the one that started in the middle of a civil war (NTF Rebellion)?
Filthy Fed hippies. Nothing you do or don't do matters. Just roll over now, and you might live longer.
As expected from a Tev symphatizer. Clearly if nothing UEF does or doesn't do matters, there shouldn't have been a lengthy and costly war in Sol system, no?
Consider this: You've lived all your life in relative piece and prosperity, in a regime that has existed longer than the one preceding it (UEF has existed longer than GTA). Not to mention that your system holds the majority of humanity (Sol system is more populous than rest of GTVA combined). Then, this group of upstarts comes knocking and says that since your system used to be part of GTA and GTA is now part of GTVA, you're part of GTVA and will be assimilated by force if necessary. This faction doesn't have the economical, political or sociological stability that UEF has. They also are severely lacking in the civil liberties department - in fact I would go as far as to call it a military junta, a war-time governing body that never gave up their emergency powers.
The GTVA attempts to demonize the Ubuntu leadership as brainwashing, scheming, non-elected rulers whose agenda would be devastating to humanity if it spread out of Sol system. To this, I say only this:
No, Tevs, you are the demons.
What is the main elected governing body of GTVA, and when were the latest elections?
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Kind of ironic in a way, at this point the Vasudans actually have more in common with their enemy than they do their own allies.
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I think that's just cause to drop the Zods and burn you both. . . .
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I have read all previous posts and have noted that all have valid points. But hear this, it is only a matter of time before the UEF develop the Cybrans and the Aeon movement emerges. And once that happens, soon after they shall become the Core and begin the war that will last over 4000 years.
You have been warned Tev scum. We shall adapt. We shall evolve. We will overcome all threats. And we shall continue to prosper.
P.S. If WiH was Star Trek, Dekker would be Uhura because he's on comms :lol:
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Referring to what specific (canon) case of Shivan activity?
Actually, I was referring to the end of BP:AoA, which is canon for all intents and purposes to a discussion of BP:WiH.
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Referring to what specific (canon) case of Shivan activity?
Actually, I was referring to the end of BP:AoA, which is canon for all intents and purposes to a discussion of BP:WiH.
But those are Shivans from the Sanctuary's universe. The main deviation from FreeSpace Proper universe is, of course, the destruction of Earth and survival of the Lucifer, but to me that suggests there must be a reason for this (rather than just some random failure of Alpha 1).
Furthermore, there's a line in AoA that to me gives a hint of what this reason might be:
"We know of Vasudans, but not of your Terran-Vasudan Alliance."
I hypothesize that in Sanctuary universe the main reason for the survival of the Lucifer is that Terrans and Vasudans failed to work together to defeat the danger facing them both. In other words, there is no evidence to show that humanity (or Vasudans) in Sanctuary's universe actually ever proved they could play nice.
In the case of Ancient monologues, they refer to the destroyers in plural, yet we only see one Lucifer (the actual threat, since the rest of the Shivans could be destroyed out of subspace). Why's that? Did the Shivans really have that little resources at that point?
Of course, it's possible that both the Ancients' and my hypotheses about Shivans' motives are completely wrong, and that they are driven by something else than knocking out bullies who don't play nice with others. Excessive usage of subspace is another hypothesis for the question "what attracts Shivans and why do they seem so awfully hostile every time we meet them", but again the Shivans could easily just wipe the humans and Vasudans out, if that was their main goal.
Even the Lucifer fleet, in its all apparent murderous purposefulness, gave a possibility of survival. Any military strategist/tactician should be aware that when ever possible, you just don't give your enemy any possibility of winning, and overwhelming force is where Shivans are good at. I refuse to believe that the FreeSpace 2 box art (stating Lucifer fleet as a scouting party) was actually true; I think Shivans could very well have called upon a fleet at least comparable to the Sathanas fleet at any time during the Great War (in fact, their reinforcements might have been waiting in the Nebula beyond Gamma Draconis, waiting for the Knossos device to be activated...).
There are a lot of inconsistencies in FreeSpace and FreeSpace2 plots, but much more if you insist on thinking that the Shivans really want to just destroy all species they encounter. Clearly there's more to them than that.
In summation, my argument is:
Shivans have demonstrated unstoppably overwhelming resources (numbers and technology being the most obvious). They are undeniably able to destroy Humanity and Vasudans - the Lucifer fleet was rather small compared to the Sathanas fleet, and it was possible for Humans and Vasudans to defeat the Lucifer if they managed to operate together; though if they would fail at this task, the Lucifer would - according to its mission parametres - keep at it until the events of AoA. Sathanas fleet, however, never tried to annihilate Humans - their objective was to proceed to Capella (lots of GTVA military died in attempts to stop this perceived invasion) and blow it up for unknown reasons (probably to power a subspace jump to unknown destination), and lot of people died because of that, but the destruction of human lives wasn't their objective, just pretty much collateral damage. Hypothetically, there exists many universes where Vasuda Prime is unscathed and Earth got burnt instead, or universes where both planets survived, or neither (like in Sanctuary universe).
One might argue that Shivans kept on attacking the evacuation convoys - yeah, they did. But I'm getting the picture that individual Shivans aren't the brightest tools in the shed, and they could have just acted according to their mission parametres, which might not have been updated to allow safe pass. The presence of non-shivan forces could have been perceived as a threat - small as it may have been - and they reacted to stimulus by aggression. In this sense they share some traits with social insects such as ants or bees, and their communications via "modulated quantum pulses" (I always wondered if they used amplitude modulation, frequency modulation or polarization modulation by the way) would support the hive mind hypothesis, which would suggest that the Shivan "soldiers" pretty much just do what they're told until told to do differently.
I should point out that the only demonstrably different case where shivans respond to anything by something else than aggression is when Bosch contacts them - they appear, board Iceni, kill a lot of crew on their way to CIC, extract Bosch and his command crew and leave the Iceni dead in the Nebula. This deviation from shivan's standard operating procedure is pretty interesting, because if you assumed that Shivans just wanted to destroy us, they would have again just destroyed the Iceni...
Addendum: As to what the Dante expresses... well, let's just say I'm a bit hesitant to extrapolate on that. I'll just point out that Vishnans and Shivans have been doing their (seemingly separate) jobs for a long time after the "Brahmans of old" up and left (whatever they may be), but now Shivan interests are opposed to Vishnan interests, and the balance of power has changed somewhat.
The Dante's desire to destroy humanity might exist more for the sake of opposing the Vishnans than for the task of destroying humanity.
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Er, maybe you're over-analyzing that one line a little bit.
"We know of Vasudans, but not of your Terran-Vasudan Alliance."
I mean, considering this is said right after Bei mentions the "Galactic Terran Vasudan Alliance"...
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The best thing to use against the Shivans is Thermite, specifically Thermite-TH3, the military grade stuff. Just pour this **** all over the Dante in nice, big heaps. Standard Thermite exotic Thermite, whatever. For those of you who don't know, Thermite has its own oxidizer so it CAN burn in space, the this stuff is as hot as liquid plasma and also oxidizes metals (notice how i wasn't specific.). This **** would ruin them, and we have enough of it. BUT NO ONE BUT ME THINKS OF IT.
As for the TevFed war: **** both of you, on one side we have a bunch of OMFGWHATISAWAR. Seriously, look up WWI and the Vietnam War, they should be in your archives. And one the other side we have a bunch of over-controlling asshats who make the UN (prisonplanet.com) look like a bunch of pussies with all of their bio-weapons and stale speeches about their authority.
No one is wrong, but if I had to pick a side I would go for the Feds and teach them how a REAL war is won. Seriously I am NOT about to have MY planet bombed with chemical weapons, **** that. I will eviscerate you before that happens
"We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-*****es, we're going to rip out their living goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-****ing-basket. War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours."
"I don't want to get any messages saying, 'I am holding my position.' We are not holding a goddamned thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living **** out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like **** through a tin horn!"
"Some goddamn fool once said that flanks have got to be secure. Since then son-of-a-*****es all over the globe have been guarding their flanks. I don't agree with that. My flanks are something for the enemy to worry about, not me. Before he finds out where my flanks are, I'll be cutting the bastard's throat." - George S. Patton http://badassoftheweek.com/patton.html (http://badassoftheweek.com/patton.html)
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now.
We've finally found him. We're surrounded.
That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them."
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right,
they're in front of us, they're behind us.
They can't get away this time." -Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller http://badassoftheweek.com/puller.html (http://badassoftheweek.com/puller.html)
Good night Chesty Puller, Wherever you are!
NEEDS MOAR DAKKA!!!
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^^ This is the attitude that will beat the Shivans.
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This is the attitude that will get humanity wiped out within a month. :p
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THIS. IS. SOOOOOOLLLLLLLL.
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And Patton would've loved to serve in the GTVA.
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This is the attitude that will get humanity wiped out within a month. :p
We go as we came: with a bang!
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The best thing to use against the Shivans is Thermite, specifically Thermite-TH3, the military grade stuff. Just pour this **** all over the Dante in nice, big heaps. Standard Thermite exotic Thermite, whatever. For those of you who don't know, Thermite has its own oxidizer so it CAN burn in space, the this stuff is as hot as liquid plasma and also oxidizes metals (notice how i wasn't specific.). This **** would ruin them, and we have enough of it. BUT NO ONE BUT ME THINKS OF IT.
You have read the tech descriptions of, say, the Helios and Harbinger bombs, correct? These ships can withstand nuclear-scale explosions and come out without a scratch. Even a Lilith- a frakking CRUISER- can withstand several Helios hits. So tell me, how much thermite would you need to destroy a ship that it may or may not even affect and which may or may not reinforce its structure with energy shielding, in which case all bets are off as to how it would react to thermite?
FS weapons are orders of magnitude more powerful than anything we have today. Maybe NO ONE BUT YOU THINKS OF IT (like the cruise control there btw, really makes you seem classy. Not) because IT WOULDN'T WORK.
About the rest of your post; I'd like to see a solution that results in a minimum of Terran and Vasudan casualties, which would be reconciliation between the Tevs and the GTVA ASAP. I can only hope that the Fedayeen's secret project has something to do with that end.
As to the Shivans; we are not going to survive by engaging them in combat. The only chance we have starts with finding out what their true motives are.
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For some reason whenever I see the words "Solus Lacus" and "Enlightenment" I am more reminded of the act of brainwashing.
That said, since the writing is intentionally grey-on-grey and people like HT and GB can deliver lines upon lines of pro-UEF text (this is not an insult btw - just some of HLP's figures in action :lol:), I'm just thankful the scenario is still nothing but a video game.
:sigh:
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I see the GTVA as the produce of years of fear. The generation which experienced the Shivans firsthand in the second war on the frontlines now seem to form the flag admirality of the GTVA. With their first-hand experience they utterly fear the Shivans and are desperate to get themselves any tool they can, including the conscription of Sol's forces might a third invasion occur and making good ues of all the resources available in Sol. Having a war to unite the people again and playing it so subtle that the Vasudans may rejoin the effort are factors that seem to have contributed to the actions taken. As far as the GTVA knows the Shivans may return and they wish to prepare any way possible, not a stupid approach from their point of view and not really an evil move. Definately more so desperation, doing what they think is right in the long run. I doubt Admiral Steele enjoys what he does, he just finds it nescesary.
I simply lack knowledge on how much the Elders really do know about the Shivans. They may actually know enough about the Shivans through whatever means that their entire Ubuntu concept is introduced with more of a purpose than to simply bring peace and unification to the Sol system. It may be to prepare humankind for much bigger things.
I can't say I agree with the GTVA as a player, however if I were with the GTVA as an officer and knew no better I may have believed the same. The same as how a country which is repeatedly attacked by a much greater invader may find anyone who chooses not to fight naïve. Knowing of Vishans and Shivans by playing the BP series however, I must say my support goes to the UEF and Ubuntu.
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Uh... Shivan Hunter, you do realize that even the Harbinger is NOTHING compared to the nukes that the US has TODAY bo. We have nukes so powerful just ONE could level an entire, small country. Plus that is only using about 15% of the nuclear capacity inside one. In FS, we should be using about 50%, but the detonators work the same way and probably only use 20%. If the largest nuke that the US has or ever had available was used on a Lucy, it would probably blow it in half. You know the nuke-tests? those where only small payloads, about the same size used in the Davy Crockett Nuke Bazooka; those had only a mere 10 to 20 ton yield. The Fat Man, one of our nukes used on Japan in WWII had a 21 Kiloton warhead, and decimated a huge area. Nukes we have today are about 5 times as powerful, one, that is coming from the same size warhead, and two, that was in only about 50 years, that's a lot of progress when it comes to something as complicated as nuclear physics.
Oh, and Thermite? Dude, do you know what a large amount of Thermite does to things? The amount of Thermite I was talking about using on the Dante is enough to start a ****ing sun to form man. oh and I forgot to mention, because of the intensity of a Thermite reaction on such a large scale it will cause the reaction to repeat itself a few times. Seriously, it gets that hot, plus it has tons of atoms crashing into each other because of the massive amounts oxidization which could cause a good amount of fusion reactions in that amount of Thermite. Oh and shields? Bah, stuff. Thermite gets hotter than the surface of the sun; it would be like getting thrown into a star.
Also, Did you know that lightning is hotter than the surface of our sun, Sol? Tesla made a device that could produce a constant flow of this stuff with scrap parts. If a modern FS universe version could be made and fitted onto a ship, it would tear the Shivans apart, and they would go run screaming. Did you know that Tesla was able to create a particle cannon similar in effect to the UD-8 Kayser?
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Actually, some of the lowest yield weapons in FreeSpace - Fury dumbfire rockets - have a 3kt payload, which is described as 'very small'. So even the lightest FS weapons are comparable to today's nukes, and a Harbinger, a 5000mt warhead, is 100 times more powerful than the largest nuclear detonation ever conducted on Earth.
Our weapons today are no match for FreeSpace yields.
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3kt? that's physically impossible, plus we don't know what kind of explosive it is toting
Furthermore, a true 5000mt explosion would have ripped the Lucifer to shreds. It may be the size of a large city, but a city can be easily crushed by a Davy Crockett Rocket, so imagine what a true 5000mt explosion would truly be capable of. I know it's more devastating in an atmosphere, but it still would have sploded everything.
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3kt? that's physically impossible, plus we don't know what kind of explosive it is toting
Furthermore, a true 5000mt explosion would have ripped the Lucifer to shreds. It may be the size of a large city, but a city can be easily crushed by a Davy Crockett Rocket, so imagine what a true 5000mt explosion would truly be capable of. I know it's more devastating in an atmosphere, but it still would have sploded everything.
How is a three kiloton detonation physically impossible when our modern nuclear warheads easily achieve that yield?
A true 5000mt explosion would not have ripped the Lucifer to shreds if it were made of material that could withstand a 5000mt explosion, which it apparently was. Welcome to the future.
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How is a three kiloton detonation physically impossible when our modern nuclear warheads easily achieve that yield?
uh, because they aren't nuclear.
A true 5000mt explosion would not have ripped the Lucifer to shreds if it were made of material that could withstand a 5000mt explosion, which it apparently was. Welcome to the future.
I see your point. Still, if Tesla were around he would have single-handedly brought the Shivans to their knees.
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The Shivans are older and more powerful than we are. They are technologically superior in most aspects related to warfare. Whatever weapons we could devise, they could as well. Any weapon we could imagine, they probably have in field testing.
Some of your strategy seems built around having more ships/more badass ships than they do. Do not try to fight a production war against a race that can build 100 Sathanas juggernauts. You will lose.
How would we be able to dump more thermite on them than we could hope to produce when they could pulverize us with beam cannons before we can even get in range?
Food for thought.
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3kt? that's physically impossible, plus we don't know what kind of explosive it is toting
Well, it could be 3kt TNT equivalent with a Plotdeviceonium warhead for all we know...
Furthermore, a true 5000mt explosion would have ripped the Lucifer to shreds. It may be the size of a large city, but a city can be easily crushed by a Davy Crockett Rocket, so imagine what a true 5000mt explosion would truly be capable of. I know it's more devastating in an atmosphere, but it still would have sploded everything.
Nukes aren't that powerful in space. A lot of the devastation of a nuke comes from it's shockwave, which needs air to be carried. I guess with all the sounds and the way shockwaves are moving through space, one could argue FS has "space air", but I think we are still to believe that there is no air in space.
Still, a 5000mt explosion should probably shred a lucy, and about anything else. The fact that it doesn't seems to mean, that materials are used that are so much more sturdy that anything we have imagined so far. As the GTVA and UEF vessels can take that sort of punishment as well, I guess mankind and Vasudankind have developed something to that effect as well. Who knows if thermite would even do anything here, it burns really hot, but perhaps the material is indeed able to withstand temperatures like within a star. Maybe it isn't even metal, but some sort of plotdeviceonium-gameplayproofingum quantum crystal thingymajjiger alloy. Or perhaps electromatter... no, wait... the ships aren't pink...
I guess it could be used, however, as a sort of genocidal weapon. Dumped in sufficient numbers it would overheat the interior even if the hull could not be significantly compromised. That could kill the inhabitants, leaving the ship for the taking. The amount of thermite that would have to be used would be rather impractical, though. I could imagine that you'd need huge, thermite laden carrier ships to deploy it, which in turn would be a vulnerable and fragile target, easily baked and obliterated.
Speaking of "I thought of a weapon no one else did"... When you have AWACS in the combat zone, and you are able to coordinate such extremely precise jumps to allow SSM strikes, why not jump in a harbinger INSIDE the ship. 5000mt inside a ship would destroy the interior, or at least kill everyone inside, even with a plotonium-whatever alloy as a hull. Ah, I guess every ship has some sort of shielding against that, probably the "Gameplay > Everything" device, which is not targetable as a subsystem.
I still support the UEF a lot more than the GTVA.
And to make myself completely unlikeable: I think the Gefs have a sensible idea, which should be put into action if complete xenocide of our species seems absolutely unavoidable.
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Lol, Gefs. What will they do when they discover their "return to the comets" is yet further xenocide?
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FS2 warheads detonate when they contact their target. The damage is likely dealt mainly by internal shockwaves propagating through the ship's superstructure, or in case of shaped charges, piercing damage is done that can reach pretty deep into the ship.
I prefer to think of the shockwaves as formed by the vaporized material of the warhead (or ship) itself.
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FS2 warheads detonate when they contact their target. The damage is likely dealt mainly by internal shockwaves propagating through the ship's superstructure, or in case of shaped charges, piercing damage is done that can reach pretty deep into the ship.
I prefer to think of the shockwaves as formed by the vaporized material of the warhead (or ship) itself.
Makes quite some sense. The blast of nuclear explosions though, comes from rapidly overheating the air, which results in pressure changes. I'm really not sure how you would get that into a spaceship hull to the same effect. The shockwaves in-game are of course some sort of plasma from the remains or something to that effect. Basically the 50% energy of a nuclear explosion that normally goes into the blast would be added to the thermal radiation.
If a warhead like this penetrates the hull, though, it is bound to destroy that section of the ship, unless there are several layers of hull to prevent that.
Conventinal shaped charges are actually a lot easier to understand in that regard I think. They should work pretty much the same like the ones we already use. Many of them use not only heat but rapidly expanding Nitrogen or other gases, which are bound in the molecular structure of the explosive, so they should create a sufficient blast even in space.
And the Gef thing - well, if you got a huge fleet of juggernauts ready to chew up earth and every living human being, some sort of diaspora is needed. Thing is - it should always remain the last straw to grasp.
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The blast of nuclear explosions though, comes from rapidly overheating the air, which results in pressure changes. I'm really not sure how you would get that into a spaceship hull to the same effect.
A. The explosion of a contact triggered warhead at close proximity to ship's surface would cause radiation based heating of the surface of the hull, to the extent that parts of it would vaporize. Rapid heating would cause equally rapid thermal expansion, which would cause a shockwave propagating through the structures of the ship, and if the shockwave were srong enough it would cause structural damage as well as local damage.
B. Penetrators like Stiletto or Paveway would sink the warhead's payload into the target object before detonation.
C. Shaped charge basically become explosion-powered beam of molten metal that penetrates the ship's structure and causes damage that way. This could theoretically be accomplished by a nuclear charge as well as conventional explosives.
But, this tangent of the discussion is veering off topic quite fast, so let's leave damage mechanisms for another thread.
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3kt? that's physically impossible, plus we don't know what kind of explosive it is toting
Reality disagrees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Atomic_Demolition_Munition)
Look closely. That's a man-portable, variable-yield nuclear weapon which can be dialed from 10t to 1kt. It was designed in the 60s.
For further education, take a look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_Atomic_Demolition_Munition), which is a 181kg bomb with a yield of up to 45kt. Developed in 1965.
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How is a three kiloton detonation physically impossible when our modern nuclear warheads easily achieve that yield?
uh, because they aren't nuclear.
Yes they are.
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Reality disagrees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Atomic_Demolition_Munition)
Look closely. That's a man-portable, variable-yield nuclear weapon which can be dialed from 10t to 1kt. It was designed in the 60s.
For further education, take a look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_Atomic_Demolition_Munition), which is a 181kg bomb with a yield of up to 45kt. Developed in 1965.
For further further education, AIR-2 Genie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie) was a 1.5 kt air-to-air rocket designed to have an area effect and destroy hostile aircraft.
Strategic dimensions for it are 2.95 m (9 ft 8 in) length and 0.44 m (17.5 in) in diameter, weighing in 373 kg (822 lb) at launch. Warhead itself was W25, which by itself was 17.4 inches in diameter and 26.6 inches long, weighing estimated 218-221 pounds.
From this context, the dumbfire rockets used in FreeSpace actually sound almost plausible - if not for their rather lackluster visible results...
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Firstly General Steele is a downright, dispecable son of a *****, with no morals BUT I got to admit he's one hell of a strategist and a General (i'd rather be fighting for him than against him LOL)
Playing through WIH and seeing the capabilities (nuclear weapon and artillery) of the UEF warships i've noticed that the only advantage the GTA has is the beam technology and probably the war/fighting experience they got from fighting the shivans. Remove that and the UEF trounces them everytime (big up to the 2nd fleet; jovian/martians rock and kick butt)
Even though General Steele is a maniacal but absolutely intelligent strategist i think he has a match when it comes to some of the Jovian militiary head honchos.
One thing i still can't get is why the GTA wants to remove the ubuntu goverment. With the experience the GTA has had fighting the shivans plus the experience of the survivors from the alternate timeline (AOA)wouldn't the diplomatic route of informing the Ubuntu of the risk the shivans pose be easier than fighting? Cuz this war is just going to end up as a war of attrition with the best of the UEF fleet being destroyed (which strategically is a big no no cuz training newbies is going to suck and getting that fighting experience will take time.) Leaving the GTA having to rebuild a viable fighting fleet whilst dealing with controlling a probably disgruntled populace.
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Diplomacy isn't an option. The GTVA fears Ubuntu will spread throughout GTVA space, turning its citizens into pacifists. Projections also had a massive emigration from the outer colonies into Sol, leaving them useless in case of Shivan incursion. Essentially, the GTVA feels that if it and humanity are to survive, the UEF must be crushed and Ubuntu consigned to the dustbin of failed philosophies. There's also the fact the GTVA needs Sol's industry to get its economy running again and to start building more warships.
In other words, the GTVA has been wanting a short, victorious war in order to restore public morale and give the economy a shot in the arm.
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How is a three kiloton detonation physically impossible when our modern nuclear warheads easily achieve that yield?
uh, because they aren't nuclear.
Yes they are.
Even if they aren't nuclear it is entirely possible to be able to build something like that 300 years from now given that advances in technology and science allow for miniaturization.
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How is a three kiloton detonation physically impossible when our modern nuclear warheads easily achieve that yield?
uh, because they aren't nuclear.
Yes they are.
Even if they aren't nuclear it is entirely possible to be able to build something like that 300 years from now given that advances in technology and science allow for miniaturization.
A very good point.
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Whatever. I try to make a suggestion and you automatically smack me with the sharp-end of a sledgehammer just because I'm wrong THE FIRST TIME. **** my old ideas.
Suggestion: Make a subspace-rupturing bomb that makes something in effect to a million black holes that last for Planck and release a massive resulting shock wave, that should work. Here's a table file, its a modification of the Trinity missile from ItDoH.
Instead of sticking with what we know, or staying it the past, why not use the past to look forward: innovation. Sorry for being an ass. No, I seriously mean that.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Is anyone else getting tired of this guy's retarded trolling?
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I find it rather amusing.
Why so serious? (though I would admit, some people have told me that before)
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Bo, Tesla made **** that was more powerful than a nuke,
Provide proof or GTFO.
Before you cite that crap about him being potentially involved in Tunguska, you should know that that one has been pretty much proven to be a meteoroid impact.
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and make it about 50,000 times more powerful
I've taken this quote out of its particular context, since it seems to be your general strategy for combating the Shivans. You don't seem to be considering the production costs- or even feasibility or physical possibility- of doing that for a certain weapon.
Let's take this thermite that you seem to be so obsessed with.
The Sathanas is 6KM long, and quite massive. Let's forget about the Dante and even the other 100 Sathanas juggs for a moment. How would you destroy one Sath with thermite? You can't just shoot it into the hull- if that were effective, the above-nuclear-grade Helios bombs would have pulverized the destroyer.
By all rights, a weapon as powerful as the Helios would cripple or completely rip apart a ship as large as the Sath if it were made of conventional materials. So what does that tell us? Materials science has advanced several centuries by the time of FS, and they have hulls that are known to withstand Helios bombs on a corvette. The Shivans have a cruiser that can withstand a Helios explosion.
There is one fact that you seem to be avoiding at all costs here: the Shivans are more technologically advanced than we are, and they have vastly superior numbers. Their numbers alone could overwhelm us. How exactly would you defend against 100 Sathanas juggernauts?
I want you to answer one thing, or I'll consider your entire argument to be a bunch of unverified BS that isn't supported by any canon facts about the GTVA and weapons in the FS universe. And I don't want any "Tesla could do it" crap either, I want an actual feasible strategy based on existing FS canon about weaponry and limitations in GTVA production ability.
How would you attack a fleet of 100 Sathanas juggernauts, their supporting ships, and an SJ Dante, with the resources the GTVA has?
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plenty of species have gone extinct and have existed for millions of years FROM NATURAL CAUSES.
And you know what all of them had in common? No technology whatsoever. Dinosaurs never went to the moon.
Bo, Tesla made **** that was more powerful than a nuke, and he was born during the late 1800's yes, that long ago, WITH SCRAP PARTS.
A strategic nuclear warhead can vaporize an entire city.
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it could replace the Gauss cannon ammo that the UEF uses
Now why would you want to do that? Their cannons use antimatter-cored rounds. I don't know how powerful Thermite is, but I guarantee you it is not as powerful as antimatter. If antimatter doesn't cut it, the only other option in FS2 is meson weaponry. (And if that can't do the job, you're beyond screwed)
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I don't know how powerful Thermite is, but I guarantee you it is not as powerful as antimatter. If antimatter doesn't cut it, the only other option in FS2 is meson weaponry. (And if that can't do the job, you're beyond screwed)
Indeed, while Thermite can burn as hot as the surface of the sun, antimatter/matter reactions should locally produce reactions even more devastating than the inside of a sun.
And while Tesla was a major badass, most of the popular legends around his "secret" inventions that are "much better than everything we even have today" are completely out of proportion and miss key facts that we discovered since then. While his ideas were genius, some of his devices were either completely impractical or outright impossible to make.
And none of his devices, especially none build out of scrap parts, was stronger than a modern strategic nuke - and no way in hell anything he created came close to a 50000mt explosion. (in an athmosphere like earth, that would be enough to basically completely devastate all of ireland and parts of the main british island)
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As far as I know thermite only works when spread over a surface, probably using a fuel (oxygen?) or something similar to combust and maintain. An advanced ceramic layer of some kind would probably reduce the effect, such as a carapace of sorts. Thermite also doesn't give a blast I think, just lots of heat. Beam weaponry does what thermite does, giving sustained heat onto a hull.
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As far as I know thermite only works when spread over a surface, probably using a fuel (oxygen?) or something similar to combust and maintain. An advanced ceramic layer of some kind would probably reduce the effect, such as a carapace of sorts. Thermite also doesn't give a blast I think, just lots of heat. Beam weaponry does what thermite does, giving sustained heat onto a hull.
heat is uber deadly to IRL space ships. seeing how Freespace ships can take antimatter/matter reaction explosions, I don't think its really a problem for them.
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heat is uber deadly to IRL space ships. seeing how Freespace ships can take antimatter/matter reaction explosions, I don't think its really a problem for them.
Even if the ships themselves could retain their structural integrity at white-glowign hot temperatures, I can see that being somewhat inconvenient for the crew.
Aside from that, normal solid matter can only stay solid (and normal matter) below certain temperatures, and I can see beams being capable of heating their target's surface to sufficient temperatures to simply convert the matter into a cloud of electrons, protons and neutrons rather than dicking around with more normal phase changes of matter.
It's even possible that the beams go even further and split the protons and neutrons into something more primal (see quark-gluon plasma)...
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Infamus managed to seriously derail this thread. IMO a Tev vs GTVA debate is more interesting than a physics debate which, given the general nerdiness of the community as a whole, has been beaten to death long before now.
so.... back OT, Tevs suck
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Staying OT and completely in-character:
If Tevs sucked, they wouldn't be winning. :P
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I think they both suck. Tevs suck for trying to force their authority on the feds, and the feds suck cuz they're hippies. :p
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the feds suck cuz they're hippies. :p
Neocapitalist, industrial, exploratory hippies?
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the feds suck cuz they're hippies. :p
Neocapitalist, industrial, exploratory hippies?
Hippies who grew up?
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Yeah, probably. But you have to start somewhere!
Hey, at least they are not as near as bad as the ****ing Gefs, their like the extreme leftist environmentalists from hell: lying to get there own way and trolling if they fail.
As for the Tevs, I see there point but they don't need to be so damn aggressive. And about the Feds, they are just defending their turf, But there is one small thing they need to know: "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu
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Staying OT and completely in-character:
If Tevs sucked, they wouldn't be winning. :P
I bet the UEF are thinking along this line:
(http://koti.welho.com/ahesso/Animation/Cats_Ihasforcefield.jpg)
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Staying OT and completely in-character:
If Tevs sucked, they wouldn't be winning. :P
I bet the UEF are thinking along this line:
(http://koti.welho.com/ahesso/Animation/Cats_Ihasforcefield.jpg)
Any hint on the big project they're working on?
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Not until WiH2, most likely.
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Not until WiH2, most likely.
There are some hints in R1. I wish I could say more.
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The main reason I'm with the UEF is because the GTVA instigated hostilities the moment they reached Sol. Even after all the **** with the Shivans and the Vishnans and the parallel universe of doom.
No attempt at diplomacy. No knowledge of who or what they are dealing with, aside from seriously outdated information and/or their own theories. If it wasn't for that fact, I'd be able to sympathise with the Tev's reasons, but they instigated a war with a technically unknown group, with the idea to subjugate or eradicate. No middle ground. IMO this is a 'stupid-as-F**K' thing to do. If they had at least attempted a half arsed go at diplomacy then i wouldn't care and would follow orders and say 'oh, that's pretty' everytime something important blows up.
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The main reason I'm with the UEF is because the GTVA instigated hostilities the moment they reached Sol. Even after all the **** with the Shivans and the Vishnans and the parallel universe of doom.
No attempt at diplomacy. No knowledge of who or what they are dealing with, aside from seriously outdated information and/or their own theories. If it wasn't for that fact, I'd be able to sympathise with the Tev's reasons, but they instigated a war with a technically unknown group, with the idea to subjugate or eradicate. No middle ground. IMO this is a 'stupid-as-F**K' thing to do. If they had at least attempted a half arsed go at diplomacy then i wouldn't care and would follow orders and say 'oh, that's pretty' everytime something important blows up.
You missed a part of the story - they did know what they were up against, they had had probes in sol for weeks before the 13th battlegroup transitted. It's what caused them to formulate the idea to attack, the knowledge of what Buntu and the Feds were. Though, it was originally supposed to be 'distribute the 13th throughout sol in strategic locations and demand the surrender of the UEF'. Read 'The Reunion' on the WiH moddb, it explains what was supposed to happen and what went wrong
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It's also in the techroom database. BTW, FreeSpace apparently has problems rendering apostrophes.
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Yeah, some of the intelligence entries from the website seemed to have formatting issues in-game.
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The whole concept of the GTVA as the aggressors is, frankly, retarded. I understand where the writers are coming from, I even agree with some points like the devastating encounters with the Shivans would have a profound impact on the psyche of the Alliance and would harden them. But the idea that they would wage a war on a faction that was not threatening them is absurd in the extreme, especially a war on ****ing Earth, which is practically deified by Galactic Terrans (even if its status as a lost promised land has diminished of late). The fact that a huge chunk of the battlegroup flat-out mutinied at the end of AoA speaks volumes.
And from a strategic point of view it's complete idiocy. If they are so paranoid about the Shivans returning why would they be bleeding away their military strength in a needless war? Yes, yes, I know the infrastructure in Sol is extensive, you could argue that they figure any losses they incur capturing that infrastructure would be easily made up for by what it could produce for them. But the fact is that they can have access to all those shipyards and things without losing a single fighter. The UEF wasn't hostile to them, and is well aware of the threat the Shivans pose (I've always been surprised Sol got so little mention and played virtually no role in FS1, outside of the finale). They would certainly be willing to join with the GTVA in a military alliance, and since the only threat outside of pirates that the UEF would face would come from outside the system, and if allied with the GTVA the only external threat would be the Shivans, the GTVA would have the aid of the entire UEF military machine essentially (though the UEF would likely insist on keeping a few fleets permanently stationed in Sol).
As for being paranoid that Ubuntu will spread through the GTVA, that would never happen. The fact that it's childish "let's all be friends and get along happy happy joy joy" philosophy gained such a following even just in an isolated Sol is highly suspect to begin with.
The whole conflict is just too contrived. Maybe that's the point, after all the story isn't finished yet, but I find that GTVA vs Sol stories only work when the Earth forces are the aggressor.
Oh, and I still hate the horrible 'cosmic balance' stuff you're doing with the Shivans and the Vishans.
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If you tried reading some of the material in the Tech Room, there's a great explanation of the GTVA's decision and original plan for the war. If you still don't get it I'm sure the BP team can help explain.
Battuta has heavily implied, and there is significant evidence to the fact that, the 'cosmic balance' stuff is... well, not what it seems. Everything in BP can be explained logically as a point of fact, not mysticism, and neither the Vishnans or the Shivans should be trusted so readily.
[EDIT] w.r.t your concerns about wasting military resources- again, if you'd read the tech room entries, you'd know that the GTVA didn't plan on a war (at least not a drawn-out war of attrition with heavy losses), they intended to take up positions around Earth and other population centers and initiate a takeover with as little conflict as possible. The delay while they were in the alternate universe getting their catharsis, and the subsequent mutiny of a large portion of the battle group that caused, rendered this impossible.
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The whole concept of the GTVA as the aggressors is, frankly, retarded. I understand where the writers are coming from, I even agree with some points like the devastating encounters with the Shivans would have a profound impact on the psyche of the Alliance and would harden them. But the idea that they would wage a war on a faction that was not threatening them is absurd in the extreme, especially a war on ****ing Earth, which is practically deified by Galactic Terrans (even if its status as a lost promised land has diminished of late).
Ah, yes, in retrospect it does seem retarded that if your best social scientists (this in a time when social science has become vastly more rigorous and accurate) told you that the continued integrity of your government depended on securing Earth and then you learned that Earth had been taken over by a bunch of pacifist hippies who would philosophize away your military and were stupid enough to NOT have turned Sol into a massive anti-Shivan war machine you would declare war on these idiots since the alternative was basically surrendering to them and watching your population flee into their arms and
hang on a second
that doesn't seem retarded at all.
The fact that a huge chunk of the battlegroup flat-out mutinied at the end of AoA speaks volumes.
The fact that they wouldn't have if they hadn't gone through what they did speaks bigger volumes. :)
And from a strategic point of view it's complete idiocy. If they are so paranoid about the Shivans returning why would they be bleeding away their military strength in a needless war? Yes, yes, I know the infrastructure in Sol is extensive, you could argue that they figure any losses they incur capturing that infrastructure would be easily made up for by what it could produce for them.
Indeed, the latter statement is correct. The GTVA has in fact kept most of its mainline forces on Shivan alert; the UEF war is - while basically using as many forces as they can fit and support in Sol - not eating up THAT much of their overall strength.
But the fact is that they can have access to all those shipyards and things without losing a single fighter. The UEF wasn't hostile to them, and is well aware of the threat the Shivans pose (I've always been surprised Sol got so little mention and played virtually no role in FS1, outside of the finale). They would certainly be willing to join with the GTVA in a military alliance, and since the only threat outside of pirates that the UEF would face would come from outside the system, and if allied with the GTVA the only external threat would be the Shivans, the GTVA would have the aid of the entire UEF military machine essentially (though the UEF would likely insist on keeping a few fleets permanently stationed in Sol).
And then the GTVA government would collapse in an enormous civil war as mankind began a massive immigration (rout, some might say) to Sol and the economies of both GTVA and UEF collapsed under the strain. How's that for undermining defense against the Shivan?
As for being paranoid that Ubuntu will spread through the GTVA, that would never happen. The fact that it's childish "let's all be friends and get along happy happy joy joy" philosophy gained such a following even just in an isolated Sol is highly suspect to begin with.
You're right. Never in history has a collectivist, alternative philosophy taken route in a discontented, suffering populace and led to massive socioeconomic change
wait
omg what happened to china what's up with all these red things where's the han dynasty gone D: D: D:
Your superficial understanding of Ubuntu betrays great fear. A more accurate mockery of their tenets would be 'let's all be friends and get along in a freakishly effective socially engineered unit that spews out scientific and industrial innovations at a godawful rate and might, if convinced to go to war, be the most ****ing devastating sociopolitical unit of all time but in the meantime is busy making all its citizens fat, rich and very happy'.
The whole conflict is just too contrived. Maybe that's the point, after all the story isn't finished yet, but I find that GTVA vs Sol stories only work when the Earth forces are the aggressor.
I think your commentary on the Cuban Missile Crisis probably would've been similar. 'If they just team up they could make so much MONEY and establish the WORKER'S PARADISE it's so contrived that these two groups are separated by mere ideological and intellectual differences when the threat of NUCLEAR WEAPONS IS OUT THERE'
Oh, and I still hate the horrible 'cosmic balance' stuff you're doing with the Shivans and the Vishans.
Pay more attention.
Troll harder or read the techroom before trolling.
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I am of the opinion, that Noodle, is full of **** and dicks.
His value as a poster, and human being, is lower than that of a slime mold.
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Guys, everyone is entitled to speak their mind.
So lol gtfo noodle, srslah
<_<
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I am of the opinion, that Noodle, is full of **** and dicks.
His value as a poster, and human being, is lower than that of a slime mold.
I think that may be going a bit far, but on the other hand, when you dismiss thousands of words of carefully honed worldbuilding penned by psychologists and political scientists as 'retarded' and 'contrived', you're reaping a pretty bad harvest. :rolleyes: BP's setting isn't above reproach, but I daresay it's a level above that of most space opera's in terms of plausibility.
And hey, in 1945 the USA was the good guys; in 1965 we were...not so black and white. Governments change and change fast.
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And hey, in 1945 the USA was the good guys; in 1965 we were...not so black and white. Governments change and change fast.
Eh, it's never really "black and white".
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And hey, in 1945 the USA was the good guys; in 1965 we were...not so black and white. Governments change and change fast.
Eh, it's never really "black and white".
More chiaroscuro?
Did I spell that right?
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Just ignore that guy. He tried to troll the Wings of Dawn forum too.
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Just ignore that guy. He tried to troll the Wings of Dawn forum too.
He actually seems like a pretty smart dude, but his philosophy seems to be 'Find something that somebody spent months of painstaking effort on for no reason except to allow me to enjoy it, then say it sucks, then drive off trollolololulating.'
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In fact, going back through his posting history, nearly every single post of his contains some (usually poorly rationalized) h8. He either needs to stop trolling or learn some basic tact.
[EDIT] ninja'd by Battuta
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Just ignore that guy. He tried to troll the Wings of Dawn forum too.
He actually seems like a pretty smart dude, but his philosophy seems to be 'Find something that somebody spent months of painstaking effort on for no reason except to allow me to enjoy it, then say it sucks, then drive off trollolololulating.'
All I'm doing is pointing out things that are stupid as stupid. I'm not trolling, you're the ones who are getting massively butthurt and defensive. I have read the tech room, all of it, and it's still ****ing stupid. One of the great things about the Shivans is that you never know anything about them other than that they (apparently) want you dead. That's how aliens should be, completely alien. In some ways I'm glad FS3 was never made, because it would have likely revealed what the Shivans were up to and it would have been lame and disappointing.
And General Battuta, you really can't compare Ubuntu to Chinese Communism, which mainly gained power through a. the mass killing of everyone who disagreed, and b. exploiting the fact that the Chinese are traditionally mindless sheep who do what they're told (thanks Confucius).
EDIT: This forum censoring is inane as hell. If you're offended by words something is seriously wrong with you.
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Just ignore that guy. He tried to troll the Wings of Dawn forum too.
He actually seems like a pretty smart dude, but his philosophy seems to be 'Find something that somebody spent months of painstaking effort on for no reason except to allow me to enjoy it, then say it sucks, then drive off trollolololulating.'
All I'm doing is pointing out things that are stupid as stupid.
more like TROLLING amirite
I'm not trolling, you're the ones who are getting massively butthurt and defensive.
Pff by this point our butts would have to be like solid armor plate. We've had this discussion and corrected so many people so many times.
Our backstory is basically one enormous hunk of badass consistency and plausibility by this point. It would take a combination of Noam Chomsky and Colin Powell formed into some kind of Voltron-esque hybrid to effectively criticize it.
I have read the tech room, all of it, and I'm still ****ing stupid. Also I suffer rectal prolapse :( :( :(
FIXED
One of the great things about the Shivans is that you never know anything about them other than that they (apparently) want you dead. That's how aliens should be, completely alien. In some ways I'm glad FS3 was never made, because it would have likely revealed what the Shivans were up to and it would have been lame and disappointing.
You still don't know anything about them. Way to take the Vishnans on their word, man. You are just like so totally ACCEPTING omigod
And General Battuta, you really can't compare Ubuntu to Chinese Communism, which mainly gained power through a. the mass killing of everyone who disagreed, and b. exploiting the fact that the Chinese are traditionally mindless sheep who do what they're told (thanks Confucius).
gb2/m/
ubuntu gained power through the mass enrichening of everyone who disagreed and exploiting the fact that people are traditionally mindless sheep who enjoy eating and having job security
EDIT: This forum censoring is inane as hell. If you're offended by words something is seriously wrong with you.
lololololololol turn off your obscenity filter
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Also, funny story, I made a list of words that would be in noodle's response and 'butthurt' and 'defensive' were #1 and #2. For I am the Kwisatz Haderach.
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The word filter is an user option that is on by default only, not as a forum enforced policy. Check the "Leave words uncensored" option in Profile -> Look and Layout Preferences.
Then to your critique:
The whole concept of the GTVA as the aggressors is, frankly, retarded. I understand where the writers are coming from, I even agree with some points like the devastating encounters with the Shivans would have a profound impact on the psyche of the Alliance and would harden them. But the idea that they would wage a war on a faction that was not threatening them is absurd in the extreme, especially a war on ****ing Earth, which is practically deified by Galactic Terrans (even if its status as a lost promised land has diminished of late). The fact that a huge chunk of the battlegroup flat-out mutinied at the end of AoA speaks volumes.
Error coloured red.
There is a perceived threat to the GTVA, and to the minds who made the decision to go to war it was a very real threat.
It's not a military threat, and UEF as such is not the aggressor.
It's a perceived threat to humanity's ability to defend itself against external threats.
The GTVA leaders were frankly horrified at the success of Ubuntu and realized that if peaceful contact was established, it could very well assert its influence on the entire GTVA. This, in GTVA's opinion, would gravely reduce humanity's chances of survival. Hence, a way to contain and/or neutralize the cultural threat was needed, and war was deemed necessary.
And from a strategic point of view it's complete idiocy. If they are so paranoid about the Shivans returning why would they be bleeding away their military strength in a needless war? Yes, yes, I know the infrastructure in Sol is extensive, you could argue that they figure any losses they incur capturing that infrastructure would be easily made up for by what it could produce for them. But the fact is that they can have access to all those shipyards and things without losing a single fighter. The UEF wasn't hostile to them, and is well aware of the threat the Shivans pose (I've always been surprised Sol got so little mention and played virtually no role in FS1, outside of the finale). They would certainly be willing to join with the GTVA in a military alliance, and since the only threat outside of pirates that the UEF would face would come from outside the system, and if allied with the GTVA the only external threat would be the Shivans, the GTVA would have the aid of the entire UEF military machine essentially (though the UEF would likely insist on keeping a few fleets permanently stationed in Sol).
This war is not about conquered terrain, or controlled space and assets, it's about ideas. GTVA considers it impossible for Ubuntu to become nothing but a failure in an open universe:
The Ubuntu Party cannot function in an open universe. It is an artifact of the unique conditions of post-Isolation Sol. All its enlightenment and sophisticated modeling cannot account for the presence of hostile, xenocidal aliens.
Ubuntu has no answer for the Shivans. It relies on a universe in which all living beings can, in the long term, be persuaded to cooperate through market and psychological forces.
Additionally, conditions in the GTVA are ripe for the spread of the Ubuntu ideology. We consider the philosophical positions of the Ubuntu Party to be a threat to the preservation of the human species. We must move rapidly to contain this threat and organize a gradated return of Sol to legitimate GTVA authority. GTVI has already prepared a program to absorb and learn from Ubuntu’s social engineering projects. The Ubuntu Elders will be socially isolated and gradually discredited.
Under the Titan Accords, the governments of Jupiter, Mars and Earth are members of the Galactic Terran Alliance, and bound by their treaty obligations so long as an external threat exists.
Lastly see REDACTED.
There you have it - GTVA's reason for war, and the superficial legitimization that is fed to the public.
As for being paranoid that Ubuntu will spread through the GTVA, that would never happen. The fact that it's childish "let's all be friends and get along happy happy joy joy" philosophy gained such a following even just in an isolated Sol is highly suspect to begin with.
You can say it would never happen, but the GTVA sees how successful it was in Sol, and thus they see a viable possibility that it could spread to the GTVA population as well.
Fear doesn't need to be rational. Wars have been fought for far lesser reasons.
The whole conflict is just too contrived. Maybe that's the point, after all the story isn't finished yet, but I find that GTVA vs Sol stories only work when the Earth forces are the aggressor.
The story isn't finished quite yet, and I sincerely hope that the story will work for you in the end.
Oh, and I still hate the horrible 'cosmic balance' stuff you're doing with the Shivans and the Vishans.
The story isn't finished quite yet. Don't assume that the lampshades are the tropes themselves. :p
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<3 u trollttuta
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<3 u trollttuta
<3 <3 <3
Oh and QFTing a good Shivan Hunter thing that got buried:
[EDIT] w.r.t your concerns about wasting military resources- again, if you'd read the tech room entries, you'd know that the GTVA didn't plan on a war (at least not a drawn-out war of attrition with heavy losses), they intended to take up positions around Earth and other population centers and initiate a takeover with as little conflict as possible. The delay while they were in the alternate universe getting their catharsis, and the subsequent mutiny of a large portion of the battle group that caused, rendered this impossible.
Basically the war as it stands is a huge ****up that nobody totally planned on. Of course the Security Council had contingencies, but they were gambling on Plan A working out for maximum profit.
And if you think about it (YES YOU MR NOODLE) the original plan, pre-enormous-****up, is a pretty awesome plan. You seize Sol in one swell foop, you get all that amazing infrastructure ****, and you achieve your constituency's main desire in a single day AND come out looking like heroes afterwards.
Shame that (according to some theories, not canonically confirmed) those ****ing Vishnans intervened.
Rian says I made typos, I must commit seppuku. brb downloading into new body
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I ****ing love this thread! It's glorious!
Oh, and this stuff isn't self censored, there's an option you have to uncheck in your user profile. I can see everyone's profanity in all its glory. And you sir, are concentrated haterade, its like beautiful in all it's wretchedness.
I hope you never get banned, because quite frankly I enjoy your **** posting, it fills me with glee. Every time I see it, I have a stupid **** eating grin.
Thank you sir, for your never ending hate.
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Hmmm, noodle, you've really had it spelled out for you now, buddy.
Any slip ups here and it'll take some convincing to tell me you're reading the posts made in reply to you/taking in anything from them.
EDIT: fixed.
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Despite what you guys probably think, I love Blue Planet. It's great fun, the weapons, the ships, the music (and effective use of music) and especially the mission design. I really like the whole military realism thing WiH has going on, that was very well done. I just don't like the 'advanced aliens manipulating stuff' theme, I didn't like it when it showed up in AoA, and though to your credit you have revealed it to not be (or at least not entirely be) a beneficent god-figures deal, I don't like the whole approach it seems to be taking now much either. I like the description of it being more like abuse, but then that just gives me flashbacks to Babylon 5 and John Sheridan's whole 'stop using the younger races as pawns' speech. 'GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY' was gringe-inducingly bad, and I hope you guys don't do something similar here.
Also I just can't accept the GTVA as the villain. I'll completely admit to bias here, virtually every campaign ever has you flying for the GTVA (or at least sort of on their side, like in campaigns where you're a mercenary), I like the GTVA. I simply can't accept them being these war mongering assholes, whatever the circumstances may be. I'll say it again, the whole war is too contrived. I know wars are frequently fought for stupid reasons, but this is just going too far for me.
If I come off as an asshole well...it's because I am quite an asshole. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I believe that criticism should be harsh, in the hope of it leading to a better future product. In fact I feel I'm actually being pretty restrained here, if I wanted to I could talk about how the character writing in AoA utterly failed for me, I didn't connect with or particularly care about any of the characters there, or I could talk about how most of the voice acting in the Director's Cut was so bad I had to turn the sound down and just read the text. Or how while better than in the first chapter, I didn't find the character writing in WiH terribly great either, I never cared about anyone in it, and that actually makes me sad because that was clearly a main goal for you guys. Speaking of which, while I appreciate what you were going for, I found Laporte's entire character development to be herky-jerky rather than the smooth arc you were probably hoping for.
I predict that no one will agree with any of my points. I think Blue Planet is great, for the most part, something of a flawed masterpiece. Basically I just don't think the writing (outside the military atmosphere, which really was great) is up to the level of the story you want to tell.
That frigate demo mission was damn good though, almost makes up for the problems I have with the story in and of itself.
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Also I just can't accept the GTVA as the villain. I'll completely admit to bias here, virtually every campaign ever has you flying for the GTVA (or at least sort of on their side, like in campaigns where you're a mercenary), I like the GTVA. I simply can't accept them being these war mongering assholes, whatever the circumstances may be. I'll say it again, the whole war is too contrived. I know wars are frequently fought for stupid reasons, but this is just going too far for me.
So... you support the GTVA. Guess what, a crapload of people here do as well. There's nothing wrong with, or unique about, that opinion. And unless it stops you from playing WiH because you just can't help but destroy all your wingmates, it's not worth yelling about.
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Also I just can't accept the GTVA as the villain.
Well that's cool. They're not. :P
I'll completely admit to bias here, virtually every campaign ever has you flying for the GTVA (or at least sort of on their side, like in campaigns where you're a mercenary), I like the GTVA. I simply can't accept them being these war mongering assholes, whatever the circumstances may be. I'll say it again, the whole war is too contrived. I know wars are frequently fought for stupid reasons, but this is just going too far for me.
Oh it's not stupid at all. The GTVA is doing what they've always done; attempting to preserve the future of the Terran and Vasudan races. Ubuntu would destroy the forward defense necessary for even a marginal chance of surviving the next Shivan encounter. They represent a clear and present danger to the continued survival of the GTVA and the Terran and Vasudan races.
And if you actually read what I posted I'll be shocked, since everyone else tried to explain it once already.
If I come off as an asshole well...it's because I am quite an asshole. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I believe that criticism should be harsh, in the hope of it leading to a better future product.
Then you have no concept of proportional response. I live by the concept that you enlist a reviewer for the strength of his cruelty, but quite frankly you don't seem able to understand basic concepts or really think your commentary through. I commented on this in my response to your WoD criticism as well: you don't think it through. You don't pay attention to the details. Then they start contradicting you, and you don't know what to do. So you just repeat again. Bald assertion unsupported by facts.
In fact I feel I'm actually being pretty restrained here, if I wanted to I could talk about how the character writing in AoA utterly failed for me, I didn't connect with or particularly care about any of the characters there, or I could talk about how most of the voice acting in the Director's Cut was so bad I had to turn the sound down and just read the text.
Wow. "If I wanted to" well clearly you did since you, you know, did. Now I grant there was a problem with Samuel Bei and he wasn't perfectly believable because he was accepting, but he remained basically believable.
However crapping on the voice acting is hilarious. What? You think you're going to get better? And there was significant overlap with the granddaddy of voiceacting projects in the community, Derelict, which was universally praised. If you want to discredit your opinions in the community nobody's going to stop you, but it's probably not a good idea.
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Well, we did what we could to make the background in WiH and AoA as believable as we could. For most people, we succeeded. For noodle, we didn't. It happens.
However, noodle, consider that instead of calling things stupid without an explanation, you should try and deliver what is called constructive criticism. Or, you know, do your own story.
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Sooo tell me, why are we even bothering replying to someone who is completely out of touch with reality again?
I mean, clearly he hasn't got a single ****ing clue how much time and effort goes into the creation of freespace mods yet nooble acts like he paid for a product.
I believe that criticism should be harsh, in the hope of it leading to a better future product.
Oh yeah, like your post about WoD right? Yeah, that was really helpful.
And then when nobody agreed with you, you backed out of that ****storm you tried to create and never bothered to post again.
I'll just quote Quanto here because he sums you up nicely
I am of the opinion, that Noodle, is full of **** and dicks.
His value as a poster, and human being, is lower than that of a slime mold.
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Despite what you guys probably think, I love Blue Planet. It's great fun, the weapons, the ships, the music (and effective use of music) and especially the mission design. I really like the whole military realism thing WiH has going on, that was very well done. I just don't like the 'advanced aliens manipulating stuff' theme, I didn't like it when it showed up in AoA, and though to your credit you have revealed it to not be (or at least not entirely be) a beneficent god-figures deal, I don't like the whole approach it seems to be taking now much either. I like the description of it being more like abuse, but then that just gives me flashbacks to Babylon 5 and John Sheridan's whole 'stop using the younger races as pawns' speech. 'GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY' was gringe-inducingly bad, and I hope you guys don't do something similar here.
Also I just can't accept the GTVA as the villain. I'll completely admit to bias here, virtually every campaign ever has you flying for the GTVA (or at least sort of on their side, like in campaigns where you're a mercenary), I like the GTVA. I simply can't accept them being these war mongering assholes, whatever the circumstances may be. I'll say it again, the whole war is too contrived. I know wars are frequently fought for stupid reasons, but this is just going too far for me.
If I come off as an asshole well...it's because I am quite an asshole. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I believe that criticism should be harsh, in the hope of it leading to a better future product. In fact I feel I'm actually being pretty restrained here, if I wanted to I could talk about how the character writing in AoA utterly failed for me, I didn't connect with or particularly care about any of the characters there, or I could talk about how most of the voice acting in the Director's Cut was so bad I had to turn the sound down and just read the text. Or how while better than in the first chapter, I didn't find the character writing in WiH terribly great either, I never cared about anyone in it, and that actually makes me sad because that was clearly a main goal for you guys. Speaking of which, while I appreciate what you were going for, I found Laporte's entire character development to be herky-jerky rather than the smooth arc you were probably hoping for.
I predict that no one will agree with any of my points. I think Blue Planet is great, for the most part, something of a flawed masterpiece. Basically I just don't think the writing (outside the military atmosphere, which really was great) is up to the level of the story you want to tell.
That frigate demo mission was damn good though, almost makes up for the problems I have with the story in and of itself.
Look I actually think this is a pretty reasonable post, but it also says that noodle's standards are at levels we will never meet.
The GTVA is not the villain. The relationship between BP's GTVA and FS2's GTVA is rather like the relationship between Vietnam America and World War 2 America.
If you don't like the character writing, all right, our failure, but I can say with 95% confidence it's better than that in a great many NYT bestsellers (Kevin J. Anderson I'm looking at you you little ****.)
And the AoA voice acting was, again, on par with a lot of commercial products. If you didn't like it you may just want to watch The Godfather.
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You're still assuming that Noodle is operating from high standards. If that were true, then he would, for example, have read the background material about why the GTVA was at war. Considering his consistant inability to actually engage with background material or concepts such as setting, which he's demonstrated in the anime thread, WoD, and now here, I don't believe he's operating from high standards at all.
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You're still assuming that Noodle is operating from high standards. If that were true, then he would, for example, have read the background material about why the GTVA was at war. Considering his consistant inability to actually engage with background material or concepts such as setting, which he's demonstrated in the anime thread, WoD, and now here, I don't believe he's operating from high standards at all.
Yeah, maybe true. Might be better put as 'there's no pleasing some people'.
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What has happened to GB? He's suddenly become a vicious, snarky bastard. He scares me now. :shaking:
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Hell hath no fury...
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His ego is attempting to escape! :nervous:
/me attempts to warn the forums as he is pulled by the back of his shirt into the shadowy backstreets of GenDisc.
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What has happened to GB? He's suddenly become a vicious, snarky bastard. He scares me now. :shaking:
There are many battutas!
But seriously look back through this thread and I think you'll find a fair bit of consideration for noodle's perspective.
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I was mainly referencing your comment about Kevin J. Anderson. I know he's the spawn of Satan, but that's the first time I've heard you call someone a "little ****".
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I was mainly referencing your comment about Kevin J. Anderson. I know he's the spawn of Satan, but that's the first time I've heard you call someone a "little ****".
Actually, as much as I can't tolerate he's writing, he's apparently a really, really nice guy. So sayeth a mutual friend, at least.
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Again, I have actually read through all the tech entries. I fully understand your explanations for the war. I just don't buy them.
For example, I fail to see how the spreading of Ubuntu (which I also don't buy would happen, but whatever) would negatively impact humanities ability to respond to another Shivan incursion. People wouldn't suddenly forget about the fact that the aliens practically steamrolled them in every encounter and glassed a whole planet. What does the GTVA think is going to happen, military spending is going to be cut? As for people relocating en masse to Sol, I think that's a pretty big leap of logic. I'm sure some people would, maybe even a lot of people, but the idea that so many people would move as to threaten the stability of the GTVA is rather absurd, especially since Ubuntu isn't particularly Earth-centric a philosophy and could work (or not work) anywhere.
As for the GTVA being the villain, now we're just arguing semantics. Fine, 'antagonist' if you prefer. I think the bigger issue for me isn't so much that I like the GTVA as I flat-out dislike the UEF and their idiotic viewpoint. The descriptions of it in the tech room and how it ushered in a new era of prosperity and understanding make me laugh, because they resemble the promises of what Communism would do, and which it completely failed to deliver on.
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(http://blogs.westword.com/showandtell/010haters.jpg)
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For example, I fail to see how the spreading of Ubuntu (which I also don't buy would happen, but whatever) would negatively impact humanities ability to respond to another Shivan incursion.
It might not, on its own; but the socioeconomic impact would. GTVA citizens would emigrate to Sol, en masse. Sol's economy would collapse - Ubuntu models aren't calibrated for that kind of influx. Meanwhile the GTVA's economy would also collapse, and the GTVA would dissolve into martial law and civil war.
Game over.
People wouldn't suddenly forget about the fact that the aliens practically steamrolled them in every encounter and glassed a whole planet. What does the GTVA think is going to happen, military spending is going to be cut?
The GTVA's citizenry is on the edge of revolt. As the techroom makes clear, the citizens of the GTVA blame the government for mishandling the Second Shivan Incursion, blame their hubris for the loss of Capella, and believe they cannot stop a Third Incursion - if it ever comes.
As for people relocating en masse to Sol, I think that's a pretty big leap of logic. I'm sure some people would, maybe even a lot of people, but the idea that so many people would move as to threaten the stability of the GTVA is rather absurd, especially since Ubuntu isn't particularly Earth-centric a philosophy and could work (or not work) anywhere.
Rewatch the FreeSpace 2 intro. Reread the techroom data. The citizens of the GTVA are depressed, desperate, terrified of the outside universe, and - thanks to the policies that helped unify them for long enough for the Sol Gate to be built - completely obsessed with going home to the Blue Planet.
They idealize Earth. They remember dreams of humanity everlasting, they remember seeing the future of their race in the embers of dying stars - but Capella just crushed them. It was a slap in the face, a message that their expansion into the universe was a futile, self-destructive crusade against an omnipotent and omnicidal menace.
This is a monster of the GTVA's own creation. They had no hold on the hearts and minds of their citizens, so they implemented the Petrarch doctrine: 'Stay cool and stay loyal, guys, we're gonna get you home.'
You're fighting canon here. The Neo-Terran Front promised a new Earth and caused civil war. The GTVA itself has now promised the real Earth for 18 years. It is the hope that makes life worth living for these terrified people.
As for the GTVA being the villain, now we're just arguing semantics. Fine, 'antagonist' if you prefer. I think the bigger issue for me isn't so much that I like the GTVA as I flat-out dislike the UEF and their idiotic viewpoint. The descriptions of it in the tech room and how it ushered in a new era of prosperity and understanding make me laugh, because they resemble the promises of what Communism would do, and which it completely failed to deliver on.
I already told you that you're misreading the UEF. I don't understand how a neocapitalist government that pumps enormous amounts of money into education, industry, and scientific research resembles your notion of Communism. Ubuntu's rhetoric and ideology is closer to American city-on-a-hill talk crossed with Nelson Mandela.
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Nelson Mandela
Ugh. I hate that guy.
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I want you to imagine that you were born in a tiny hut outside a huge house.
There are some other huts around - it's a little village. All around you is an enormous wood full of wolves.
When you're a baby, your parents and the other adults see a wolf, put together a hunting pack, and go out to try to kill the wolves. They come back screaming. An impossibly huge pack of wolves follows them, rips apart one of the huts, eat the babies inside, then transforms into a giant wolf-o-matic attack helicopter and flies away, boggling you with their magic.
You grow up terrified of the wolves, angry at your miserable little huts, and pissed at your parents, who tell you you've got to train to fight wolves every day.
You ask them what's in the big house. 'Oh,' they say, 'it was such a great place. Amazing. And when we lived there it was a better time, and we were invincible. But we locked the door and lost the key, so we can't go back. We just need to find the key again'.
Then one day your parents, after listening at the door for a while, find the key and open the big house. They go in.
When they come back out they say "Well, everyone in there lives in comfort, with all the food they want and huge warm beds. They have parties every Friday and there are no wolves."
You ask to go into the house.
"No," they say, "we need to fortify the edges of our clearing and build up all these huts and get ready for more wolves. Can't go into the house."
You don't like this, not at all. You suggest: "If we got in there, we could lock the door and the wolves could never get in."
"Not an option," they say. "For all we know those transforming wolfpacks can transform into a battering ram or some crazy wolf **** like that."
After a hasty conference they come back and tell you: "Oh, and by the way, the house is run by evil pedophiles. We're just going to go in and clear them out, Then it'll all be fine and the people in the house can come help us."
You are suspicious.
And that's basically the perspective of the GTVA citizenry right now.
Nelson Mandela
Ugh. I hate that guy.
DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?
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by the way this is as you as a SEXP :pimp:
<an entity>
Ugh. I hate <that entity>.
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DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?
Hating America is something I can understand, even when not sharing the feeling. But why would anyone, other than a racist, dictator or religious fanatic hate Mandela?
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DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?
Hating America is something I can understand, even when not sharing the feeling. But why would anyone, other than a racist, dictator or religious fanatic hate Mandela?
because he's black duh
Actually hating America is a good example of something else that's important about this war. There are probably many citizens of Sol who are not happy with the direction the UEF has taken (though given the economic benefits not THAT many). Many of them will nonetheless support the war vs. the GTVA, for the same reason that many of the people who are not happy with the direction America has taken today would nonetheless get behind 'America the nation' rather than 'the Obama administration' if we were invaded by Trinidad and Tobago.
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Any of you actually read up on Mandela? Generally all you ever hear about him is how he's a hero who spent several decades in prison. Do you know why he was in prison? Because he was the best bomb maker in the ANC, he ran a 20 year bombing campaign. In 1985 they offered to let him out of prison if he 'unconditionally rejected violence as a political weapon'.
He refused.
The guy is a ****ing terrorist who become president because a bunch of uneducated yokels suddenly got the right to vote and believed the highly effective propaganda that made him out to be some kind of messianic figure. He was also an utter failure as a leader. Every problem that South Africa had when he took office it still has, and in many cases it's gotten worse. The slums continue to spread outside Johannesburg, the divide between the rich and poor continues to grow and society becomes more stratified by the day, the country remains the rape capital of the world, and in fact is the birthplace of so-called 'corrective rape'.
The only meaningful export that country seems to have is its weapons industry, which is itself a very sad commentary on the state of affairs there.
I could also tell you how Gandhi was a racist pedophile who stood by while the actual heroes of the movement were martyred so he could advance his own position and power.
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Any of you actually read up on Mandela? Generally all you ever hear about him is how he's a hero who spent several decades in prison. Do you know why he was in prison? Because he was the best bomb maker in the ANC, he ran a 20 year bombing campaign. In 1985 they offered to let him out of prison if he 'unconditionally rejected violence as a political weapon'.
He refused.
The guy is a ****ing terrorist who become president because a bunch of uneducated yokels suddenly got the right to vote and believed the highly effective propaganda that made him out to be some kind of messianic figure. He was also an utter failure as a leader. Every problem that South Africa had when he took office it still has, and in many cases it's gotten worse. The slums continue to spread outside Johannesburg, the divide between the rich and poor continues to grow and society becomes more stratified by the day, the country remains the rape capital of the world, and in fact is the birthplace of so-called 'corrective rape'.
The only meaningful export that country seems to have is its weapons industry, which is itself a very sad commentary on the state of affairs there.
I could also tell you how Gandhi was a racist pedophile who stood by while the actual heroes of the movement were martyred so he could advance his own position and power.
Cool story, bro. I picked Mandela as an example because he's from Africa and so is the original Ubuntu ideology. You can start a new thread if you want to talk about this though. You forgot Mother Theresa, she was a bit of a ***** too.
Of course your reaction to Mandela here is symptomatic of your problem: I said that Ubuntu rhetoric and ideology was akin to Mandela rhetoric and espoused ideology, not that the UEF was akin to South Africa or that Martin Mandho WAS NELSON MANDELA (omg!). Why the **** you'd feel the need to go off about South Africa's sociopolitical problems is beyond me.
Look, I'd just leave this off at a lrn2rd, but here's some science for ya.
If you're determined not to like something, you're not gonna like it. If you're determined not to believe something, you're not gonna believe it. No single idea, theory, religion or ideology in history has ever managed to convince everyone on the planet. You're in an affect heuristic death spiral, and baby, we're not your recovery plan.
If BP's history isn't working for you, so be it. We've already expended a novella's worth of words on it. If you don't buy it by now, you're not going to.
But ask yourself: are you jumping at shadows? The justifications War in Heaven presents for its war are infinitely more complex and plausible than FreeSpace 2's NTF background. You can set your standards arbitrarily high, but at some point they just become surplus to requirements.
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Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.
Anyway, as for BP. Maybe I'm wrong. Tell you what, I'll take back all I said, and give both games another thorough play-through, and not give a final verdict on the story as a whole until the final BP campaign is released.
Speaking of which, will WiH part 2 be the finale, or will there be another full campaign after it, and part 2 is actually just the second half of WiH because WiH is longer than AoA was?
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Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.
You know I think you're the first person I've met who can write without being able to read. Might explain the content of your posts too.
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Blue Planet 2: War in Heaven is released in two parts, Part 1 (which is out) and Part 2 (in developement).
The trilogy will be completed in Blue Planet 3.
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Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.
Anyway, as for BP. Maybe I'm wrong. Tell you what, I'll take back all I said, and give both games another thorough play-through, and not give a final verdict on the story as a whole until the final BP campaign is released.
Speaking of which, will WiH part 2 be the finale, or will there be another full campaign after it, and part 2 is actually just the second half of WiH because WiH is longer than AoA was?
I appreciate that. And honestly for all the trolling and flaming in this thread, it's been sort of weirdly pleasant. It's fun to stress-test our backstory on a hostile party.
I doubt we'll be able to satisfy you in the end, but hey, you can't please everyone.
And that was exactly my point about the NTF. They have no fluff. If you ***** about the story with the complex fluff (BP) and then give the story with no fluff a free pass, what kind of message are you sending? 'Don't bother, man, it's not even worth it'.
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Well the NTF has basically no fluff at all, they just don't go into much depth about it.
You know I think you're the first person I've met who can write without being able to read. Might explain the content of your posts too.
I too must admit, I'm quite amazed at this.
I will just sum up nooble with one picture
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5761/successfultroll.jpg)
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This shall henceforth be named the Noodle Incident.
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Come on guys, he might have some trollish behavioural patterns but you aren't exactly showing good form either. :blah:
He already acknowledged that he doesn't know the whole story and will give the whole thing another playthrough, which if he was a pure troll he wouldn't do.
Stop ragging on him and get on with the conversation.
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This shall henceforth be named the Noodle Incident.
(http://employeesofthemonth.net/phpBB3/images/smilies/jimp.png)
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Come on guys, he might have some trollish behavioural patterns but you aren't exactly showing good form either. :blah:
He already acknowledged that he doesn't know the whole story and will give the whole thing another playthrough, which if he was a pure troll he wouldn't do.
Stop ragging on him and get on with the conversation.
I was going to came back to say this.
So instead I'm going to +1 it.
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Guys...
Its time to pull out all the stops. Because it is obvious he is picking our careful arguments apart and ignoring them altogether.
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8245/1286682060845.jpg)
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Isn't this pretty much wrapped up anyway?
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Yes, it is.