Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: MP-Ryan on December 02, 2010, 10:21:03 am
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http://gizmodo.com/5704158/nasa-finds-new-life
At their conference today, NASA scientist Felisa Wolfe Simon will announce that they have found a bacteria whose DNA is completely alien to what we know today. Instead of using phosphorus, the bacteria uses arsenic. All life on Earth is made of six components: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus and sulfur. Every being, from the smallest amoeba to the largest whale, share the same life stream. Our DNA blocks are all the same.
But not this one. This one is completely different. Discovered in the poisonous Mono Lake, California, this bacteria is made of arsenic, something that was thought to be completely impossible. While she and other scientists theorized that this could be possible, this is the first discovery. The implications of this discovery are enormous to our understanding of life itself and the possibility of finding beings in other planets that don't have to be like planet Earth.
Conference is at 2 PM EST.
This is quite possibly the most important biological discovery since the description of the structure of DNA in the 1950s.
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Wait holy **** this is jesus piss on a pogo truck driver
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/4/2010/12/b488c1294517096574f6d2e854f1e600/original.jpg)
and i thought this was going to be another 'black hole nearby*' discovery
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We're gonna DIE! :shaking:
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wat
I'm going to let my mind sit on this one for a bit.
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Dude!
Wow... so we're either looking at some kind of extra terrestrial seeding, second spontaneous generation or some kind of ridiculously early mutation... probably increasing likelihood in that order, but I'd need to see some more data. If the Arsenic just slots in in place of the phosphorus (makes sense given that the're in the same column) then I'd say we're definitely looking at a mutation - well, some kind of chemical mutation anyway... but there're too many other questions - protein structure being the big one, and which specific amino acids it uses. Big deal, regardless.
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Here's some more background on Wolfe-Simon's work:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/eureka/article7040864.ece
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Dude!
Wow... so we're either looking at some kind of extra terrestrial seeding, second spontaneous generation or some kind of ridiculously early mutation... probably increasing likelihood in that order, but I'd need to see some more data. If the Arsenic just slots in in place of the phosphorus (makes sense given that the're in the same column) then I'd say we're definitely looking at a mutation - well, some kind of chemical mutation anyway... but there're too many other questions - protein structure being the big one, and which specific amino acids it uses. Big deal, regardless.
It really depends on the way the chemical is being used. If it's being used as a phosphorous analog, it's pretty good evidence for a parallel evolutionary option (as the Times article quotes, a "shadow biosphere"). But, it opens up additional possibilities for everything from protein structure to lipid structure - and a chemical composition change could significantly impact the adaptability of an organism for varying environments. The possibilities are literally endless, even with just simple replacement in DNA. However, the Times article suggests that the researcher has tried phosphorous deprivation to isolate this bacterium... which says to me that something is replacing phosphorous in most of its biological processes. That is huge. Even if its just DNA, it's huge - all the catalytic reactions for DNA creation, editing, and reading use phosphorous normally as a [renewable] energy resource. If this bacterium is using arsenic instead, that's incredible. For that matter, it may not be a bacterium at all. It would make a lot more sense if it was actually Archaea.
EDIT: We don't need to invoke aliens to explain this though. Evolution, as we understand it, can theoretically produce this type of organism.
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Stunning news. When I first saw the lake, I thought it was a flooded impact crater, which would have made the find even more incredible at least from an implication point of view, but apparently, it's a lava formation.
Edit: As MP-Ryan states, though, it doesn't detract from the possible impacts of this find or the incredible nature of it.
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If these bacteria use the same DNA genetic key (same triplets of nucleotides to code ammonia acids) then we're not looking at aliens definitely, even if their DNA has arsenic instead of phosphorus. So far the genetic key is the same for all life on earth. If this is no exception, it's just a new neighbor.
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Dude!
Wow... so we're either looking at some kind of extra terrestrial seeding, second spontaneous generation or some kind of ridiculously early mutation... probably increasing likelihood in that order, but I'd need to see some more data. If the Arsenic just slots in in place of the phosphorus (makes sense given that the're in the same column) then I'd say we're definitely looking at a mutation - well, some kind of chemical mutation anyway... but there're too many other questions - protein structure being the big one, and which specific amino acids it uses. Big deal, regardless.
It really depends on the way the chemical is being used. If it's being used as a phosphorous analog, it's pretty good evidence for a parallel evolutionary option (as the Times article quotes, a "shadow biosphere"). But, it opens up additional possibilities for everything from protein structure to lipid structure - and a chemical composition change could significantly impact the adaptability of an organism for varying environments. The possibilities are literally endless, even with just simple replacement in DNA. However, the Times article suggests that the researcher has tried phosphorous deprivation to isolate this bacterium... which says to me that something is replacing phosphorous in most of its biological processes. That is huge. Even if its just DNA, it's huge - all the catalytic reactions for DNA creation, editing, and reading use phosphorous normally as a [renewable] energy resource. If this bacterium is using arsenic instead, that's incredible. For that matter, it may not be a bacterium at all. It would make a lot more sense if it was actually Archaea.
EDIT: We don't need to invoke aliens to explain this though. Evolution, as we understand it, can theoretically produce this type of organism.
I'm not sure how depriving organisms of phosphorus would work. What about ATP/GTP? Does the thing use adenosine tri-arsonate? Does that even work for bioenergetics? Then again, seeing as the organism survives with DNA that is different and substantially bigger than ours, it's likely it also has enzymes adapted to the different energy output for its ATA/GTA (?)
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Come to think of it, it's an aptly named lake in which to find a unique organism.
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If these bacteria use the same DNA genetic key (same triplets of nucleotides to code ammonia acids) then we're not looking at aliens definitely, even if their DNA has arsenic instead of phosphorus. So far the genetic key is the same for all life on earth. If this is no exception, it's just a new neighbor.
Interestingly, there was a discovery not all that long ago in which a research group managed to re-key transcription/translation processes to 4-bp codons instead of three. Artificially, of course, but it opens up some possibilities =)
I'm not sure how depriving organisms of phosphorus would work. What about ATP/GTP? Does the thing use adenosine tri-arsonate? Does that even work for bioenergetics?
That's what I was suggesting in my edit above - I can't wait to see what the catalytic reactions are using. If it's using arsenic in place of phosphorous to power transcription/translation processes... I'm very excited =)
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holy **** holy **** holy ****
this is awesome.
I can't wrap my brain around how an organism can possibly use arsenic in its DNA. What the hell, that's crazier than those little ice worms that literally melt in your hand.
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More from Nature News. The link to the Science journal article is currently dead (probably waiting for the news conference).
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101202/full/news.2010.645.html
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Well, I, for one, welcome our new arsenic-based overlords.
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:jaw:
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Is this on cable? What channel? CNN is doesn't have anything but NewsRoom scheduled.
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should be streaming here (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)
(someone correct me if I'm wrong)
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Journal article: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2010/12/01/science.1197258
NASA page with video: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/astrobiology_toxic_chemical.html
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It's funny, but I just read this about ten minutes ago on another site, and it didn't blow me away nearly as much as it probably should have. It was more of a, "Oh hey, it incorporates arsenic into its nucleotides. Cool beans." :p
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all this really tells me is that life can be a little bit more selective of its chemistry than we once thought. these germs have been here for many millennia if not longer, it just took our incompetent asses this long to find it. and we didnt exactly have to go very far to get to it. hell, they used this lake in an eastwood film. weve been pumping water out of this lake and into la for 90 ****ing years and no one thought to dip a test tube in the water. humans disgust me.
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When I first saw this I thought it was a joke. They had this info in a program on the Science channel months (if not longer) ago. Guess it's only news when NASA is involved.
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When I first saw this I thought it was a joke. They had this info in a program on the Science channel months (if not longer) ago. Guess it's only news when NASA is involved.
No, what they had was information about bacteria that ate arsenic. That's peanuts compared to this discovery.
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Well someone needs to tell CNN because they reported that they discovered bacteria that ate arsenic.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/02/nasa.extraterrestrial.life/index.html?hpt=T1
Scientists have discovered a form of bacteria that can thrive on arsenic -- an element generally considered toxic -- dramatically expanding both traditional notions of how life is sustained and the range of where it might be found in the universe, NASA funded-researchers said Thursday.
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Yeah, science writing sucks. The discovery here is not just thriving on arsenic but the fact that they use arsenic in place of phosphorus, which was considered one of the six indispensable elements of life.
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Bad ass. I'm taking college biology right now- as many have already pointed out (just gonna join the chorus here), using arsenic in place of phosphorous is HUGE. Just about everything, the DNA, the metabolic pathways, the cell membrane, so many things are very different! And incidentally inimical to most other life forms by mere composition.
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Man, phosphorylating proteins sounds nice, but arsenylating proteins just sounds retarded.
At least, that's the impression I got off of reading one of the articles about this. Traces of arsenic were found in various cytosolic and membrane proteins, likely replacing the role of phosphate groups as the protein switches.
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Pic related (and I find it slightly humorous, to say the least)
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/arsenic_based_life.png)
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Pic related (and I find it slightly humorous, to say the least)
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/arsenic_based_life.png)
epic win
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Man, this opens up many more possibilities for extraterrestrial life, doesn't it?
And could Vasudans be silicium-based instead of carbon-? There's enough sand on their planet :D
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Vasudans are poo based.
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it's really cool that they actually found this, but it doesn't really change anything. there was always the possibility of "organic" systems that use other elements.
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it's really cool that they actually found this, but it doesn't really change anything. there was always the possibility of "organic" systems that use other elements.
but now there's proof!
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Very intriguing...
Wonder how it replaces the function of phosphorus.
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an xkcd
edit: oh never mind
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Okay, apparently there's some backlash going on now, and it appears that there's some evidence (though nothing clinched yet) that the whole arsenic-based DNA thing was a false alarm.
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Boooo...and I had just managed to get really excited over this after watching an episode of "Through the Wormhole" on Science Channel. :( Seriously, if you ever want to get psyched about something, just listen to Morgan Freeman narrate it.
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Wait holy **** this is jesus piss on a pogo truck driver
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/4/2010/12/b488c1294517096574f6d2e854f1e600/original.jpg)
and i thought this was going to be another 'black hole nearby*' discovery
It's not exactly new, there is whole lab of guys who have been replicating various primordial conditions and creating all sorts of weird DNA-role-fufilling structures, this is just our first confirmation that they weren't being innacurate with their tests.
Edit: Wait, backlash, I missed that.. can you toss me a couple of links Battuta? Sounds interesting.
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Boooo...and I had just managed to get really excited over this after watching an episode of "Through the Wormhole" on Science Channel. :( Seriously, if you ever want to get psyched about something, just listen to Morgan Freeman narrate it.
really? honestly i find it droning.
and the one episode of it i've seen wasn't all that intriguing. but maybe that was due in part to me being put off by the tone it was taking of "this hair-brained theory is absolutely right, and all the other hair-brained theorys are completely wrong. no, we're not going to offer any evidence or explanations why."
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Y'know, you can usually trust a journal like Science. Unfortunately, it seems the pooch may have been slightly screwed in this case.
http://www.slate.com/id/2276919/pagenum/all/
Disappointing. If you're going to publish something like this, you damn well better make sure its accurate.
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Boooo...and I had just managed to get really excited over this after watching an episode of "Through the Wormhole" on Science Channel. :( Seriously, if you ever want to get psyched about something, just listen to Morgan Freeman narrate it.
really? honestly i find it droning.
and the one episode of it i've seen wasn't all that intriguing. but maybe that was due in part to me being put off by the tone it was taking of "this hair-brained theory is absolutely right, and all the other hair-brained theorys are completely wrong. no, we're not going to offer any evidence or explanations why."
i find that a lot of astrophysics documentaries are dumbed down to the point that theres no point in watching them if you have any real interest in math or physics. i find you really have to watch a lot of them to find ones that actually provide new information presented in a way that doesnt numb your mind.
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Sadly I have to agree with you on that.
And every time I hear a documentary say that there was "nothing" before the Big Bang, I die a little.
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Asking "what happened before the Big Bang" is similar to dividing by zero; the answer is simply undefined. Near as we can tell, the Big Bang is the beginning of time from a human-perceptible reference frame- any events that occur before that will inherently be excluded from our investigations.
At least, that's how I understand the present theories.
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Reminds me of time travel. If humans ever develop time travel. I wonder what would happen to the person we send to before the big bang. Surely that person would experience a different existence of time and space for a little while, maybe longer, or not at all (who knows or "pffffft"). Test it on convicts, and the time machine just might bsod. Human perceptible time might be something we only would think a time machine could be able to do (i however do not expect a time machine to be able to travel to a time when time was completely absent though).
Then again, you're talking to the guy who at least thinks the only division by zero that should be defined is zero divided by zero, which would i say would be zero. Nothing divided by nothing, and you would expect to end up with nothing. I see this as very different than something like one divided by zero which would make you wake up burping out your ass and farting out your mouth, or a cataclysm.
Of which case now there's nothing but imagination and ideas that can't be proven for what happened before the big bang and will be excluded from investigations (and not too much reference from what we do actually know being progression of time and absence of it).
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if by "different existence of time and space" you mean death, then yes, that is exactly what he would experience.
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Death most likely. Then again, we don't know if humans can survive in non human perceptible time.
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that may be true, but we do know that humans cannot survive in the core of a super-massive star, and the early universe would have been vastly less hospitable than that.
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Ah, but S-99 said before the Big Bang. :P
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your right, I'm sure that the entire universe worth of energy compressed into an infinitely small space would look something like a peaceful meadow with cool water, green grass, populated by quasi-sentient ponies.
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PONIES!!!
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Um, my physics textbook disagrees with you. It says very clearly that there would be unicorns not ponies. You probably want to check your sources.
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Um, my physics textbook disagrees with you. It says very clearly that there would be unicorns not ponies. You probably want to check your sources.
There are conflicting theories.
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your right, I'm sure that the entire universe worth of energy compressed into an infinitely small space would look something like a peaceful meadow with cool water, green grass, populated by quasi-sentient ponies.
Sure, why wouldn't it? I also expect it to be raining naked purple women and candy bars. Indeed this is predicted from Quantum Unified Field Theory.
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your right, I'm sure that the entire universe worth of energy compressed into an infinitely small space would look something like a peaceful meadow with cool water, green grass, populated by quasi-sentient ponies.
WRONG
I'm sure it'd actually look like this.
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8205/hitherep.png)