Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: iamzack on December 10, 2010, 07:41:58 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5_VYiuK45M&feature=player_embedded#!
thoughts?
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Props to that guy for putting his foot forward and doing something, instead of just letting her jump.
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i watched that movie, it was amusing.
i would have helped in a different kinda way, by pushing.
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she was pretty. i probably would have been too shy to say anything to her.
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she was pretty. i probably would have been too shy to say anything to her.
Huh... Zack (can I call you Zack?)... she was about to jump. Not really a good time to be shy, honestly.
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meh, it's not like i'd have had the size or strength necessary to drag her back over the fence, and talking at her apparently did nothing for that dude.
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Well even if you'd leaned down and grabbed her collar with one hand, whilst calling 911 with the other would probably have achieved the same thing.
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Trying to pull her back would still have been a good thing to do, given you can guarantee she won't carry you over with her.
And uh, holding 130 pounds like that would be brutal on your forearm. You'd have to be very strong to keep that up for more than a minute or so.
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Trying to pull her back would still have been a good thing to do, given you can guarantee she won't carry you over with her.
That is unfortunately not very easy.
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If you're much heavier, then I don't see it as being that much of a problem. I mean, worst comes to worst, you let her fall, which would have only happened earlier if you didn't intervene.
The point of that would be to buy some extra seconds so that another passerby might have a chance to help you out, or offer enough resistance so that the jumper feels some hesitation.
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And uh, holding 130 pounds like that would be brutal on your forearm. You'd have to be very strong to keep that up for more than a minute or so.
True. Call a close-by friend and tell him or her to run like hell and bring the car and some rope with them? :P
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And uh, holding 130 pounds like that would be brutal on your forearm. You'd have to be very strong to keep that up for more than a minute or so.
True. Call a close-by friend and tell him or her to run like hell and bring the car and some rope with them? :P
How about use both hands and start screaming like a madman? I don't see why you need to phone someone :P
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I'm actually pretty sure you're not supposed to grab them unless it's clear they're actually about to jump.
When that guy made his grab I was really nervous. Looked like he was going to knock her off.
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i don't think i would have been tall enough to reach her, and she looks like she is probably bigger than me in general
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A lot of suicide prevention is simply making a connection with someone. Physically touching isn't necessary (though in a case like this, it's perfectly acceptable). Really, talking to them - even if you think they aren't listening - is often enough to delay the decision to take their life.
Talking to them in concrete terms ("Why do you want to kill yourself?") and reminding them that it isn't heroic or glamorous ("Your family and friends will care. You are making a decision that they will have to live with the rest of their lives" / "It will hurt. It may not be instant. It may not kill you.") is highly recommended as well.
For someone who isn't trained to deal with suicidal people, a physical intervention (while preserving one's own safety) is fine. It's better than doing nothing.
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"You are making a decision that they will have to live with the rest of their lives"
I hate this one. Especially under not too uncommon circumstances it can also backfire horrifically. To share some personal experience, you can get to this point from isolation, neglect, loneliness. At that point the feeling of being alone and having nothing important to you can take its toll really fast. A such described distraught and hurt individual could very well hear it as : "You're still not important, I care about the people around you." , "Don't do it: for the sake of the people that didn't help you", etc. and other variations. It's not particularly fair or reasonable, but it's entirely expected to not quite be in a fully rational frame of mind. Not only is trying to guilt a broken person a low tactic, there's so many reasons why it might not work. If the person has a bad history with friends or family, or just perceives that they never did anything to help them in their lives, there's a sense of being disinclined to care about secondary problems that group suffers.
If the person's reeling from tragedy or stress, sure it's a good idea. If they've just led a ****ty life and are tired of it, it'll only piss them off. And if you've just met the person you're not going to be able to tell the difference. Why go for the coin flip?
Make a connection with the person by talking to them. Say that you'll miss them. Especially if you're a stranger, the surprise from that might slow them down. Trying to reach out to the victim by highlighting other people sure is an odd way of convincing someone they're not unimportant.
Humans will inescapably see things from their view. However, sometimes we try and step out of that and put ourselves into someone else's shoes without realizing we're still wearing ours. If you're not thinking enough from the other person's perspective and are still considering the effects it'll have on you or other people... you're still not really stepping into that person's shoes. You have to realize that at the very least, in that person's mind they have a very good reason for being there. None of your own conceptions of what a person should be able to endure, what makes life living/meaningful, what responsibilities a person has, none of this will necessarily mean them same thing to them. They've got a problem that needs to be resolved. It's unlikely that you can do it on the spot, but you want to be sure you don't attempt to devalue that problem, it'll just push them away.
[/rant]. It's a pet peeve of mine, along with people that go around saying people that commit suicide are weak, which thankfully no one's uttered here yet.
(slight edits to grammar made)
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DarkBasilisk, that was a very thought out and meaningful post. And it was quite eye-opening for me, so thanks.
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I'm actually pretty sure you're not supposed to grab them unless it's clear they're actually about to jump.
When that guy made his grab I was really nervous. Looked like he was going to knock her off.
Why? If you can safely grab them and remove them from the situation with minimal danger to them or yourself, grabbing them seems optimal. You hold the initiative in that situation rather than having to react to whatever possibly random action they choose. Plus even if your attempts to talk them out of it fail, your safely sitting on them till the Five-Ohs arrive and they get professional help.
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Well if you scare the hell out of them, who knows what they might pull on you. A knife, a gun?
Second CDJ's post as well.
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I'm actually pretty sure you're not supposed to grab them unless it's clear they're actually about to jump.
When that guy made his grab I was really nervous. Looked like he was going to knock her off.
Why? If you can safely grab them and remove them from the situation with minimal danger to them or yourself, grabbing them seems optimal. You hold the initiative in that situation rather than having to react to whatever possibly random action they choose. Plus even if your attempts to talk them out of it fail, your safely sitting on them till the Five-Ohs arrive and they get professional help.
It's the second sentence of your post I'd worry about, especially in this case.
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If you catch them, crisis averted.
If you don't, it's no worse than what they were going to try in the first place.
Of course, that's assuming you don't knock them off yourself, but I find that significantly less likely than either of the above.
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If you catch them, crisis averted.
If you don't, it's no worse than what they were going to try in the first place.
Of course, that's assuming you don't knock them off yourself, but I find that significantly less likely than either of the above.
It's that last sentence of your post I'm worried about.
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If you touched them, and they fall off immediately after, I think legally (in North America at least) the family could charge you with manslaughter or something similar.
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Yeah, I think you guys are underestimating the inertia of even a small person and how easily one can fall from a precarious position.
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Agreed. The guy in the video lucked out since he surprised her, was bigger, was above her, and had a railing between him and her to anchor himself to. He made the right choice since he had some clear advantages in a contest of force between her. You'd have to be more cautious if you're on even ground with the person, since most of the time all that'll be keeping *you* on the ledge is the friction between the ground and your feet... Not to mention as Dilmah says, if they see you coming and you move towards them, there's no telling what they might do while scared.
Also thanks Dilmah and CDJ, it's really cool to log back on and see that :D
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i would have helped in a different kinda way, by pushing.
Suicide prevented! FOREVER!
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i would have helped in a different kinda way, by pushing.
Suicide prevented! FOREVER!
dont get me wrong. i fully believe that anyone who wants to self terminate should have the right to do so, and furthermore society should help them do it. we have made it something criminal, something that they would lock you up for. you saw how the cops busted her to the ground like a violent crack whore at the end of the clip. no doubt they would stick her in a cold cell by herself with no bedding or blankets and wearing one of those paper outfits they make suicidal people wear so they cant hang themselves with it. then on top of that they will charge her with a bunch of bogus charges, like trespassing, reckless endangerment, disturbing the peace, etc. making them feel like criminals is no way to treat them. then you stick them into a poorly funded state run mental institution. theyve had enough **** happen to them, they dont need anymore.
no instead of running to the nearest bridge, you run to a suicide clinic, where everyone supports your decision, gives you a clean way out, a surefire way to go. let em bring their friends and family if they want, and give em as much time as they need. when they push the red button, they die shortly there after. of course in this kind of environment they are likely to have second thoughts and decide not to go.
its somewhat barbaric the way we treat our mentally ill. they want to kill themselves and we want them locked up so they dont harm us. sounds rather selfish to me.
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I may not fully agree with you on all points, Nuke, but that is certainly an interesting perspective.
I for one do not support assisted suicide or suicide in general. As one who was pretty close to committing suicide once, I think I can make that stance with a degree of credence. However, I do agree with you fully on the matter of treatment. Those people have problems, and I can empathize with them. If they can be stopped from killing themselves in time, they ought to be better treated.
...Of course, it may help to do a bit more research into what a person who is stopped from committing suicide is charged with and how they are dealt with legally before making such a blanket statement. The reasons for the action must also be worthy of consideration in dealing with prevented suicides, etc., etc.
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I'm inclined agree at least a little with Nuke. I couldn't help but being a little shocked about wrestling her to the ground after-wards. It's not exactly like she was a big person, after they got her away from the ledge there was no need for heavy restraint. There needs to be a very caring approach taken right after preventing a suicide. Otherwise, all you tell the person is they better just do it faster/more direct, the next time they get a chance.
Although, I think immediately agreeing to let someone kill themselves would be just as wrong as forever preventing them from doing it. People can change their minds, and they should be encouraged to really consider what they're doing before going down that road. Something *along the lines* of being allowed to do it, but only after waiting two years and meeting with a therapist (note: NOT confined to an institution unless the person chooses so).
I can get where Nuke is coming from. Say you have someone in an institution that's resisted all treatment, and over a 5 year period has repeatedly tried to kill themselves via any means possible, showing not even the slightest sign of letting up. Forcing someone like that to stay alive is just cruel, especially considering the only way you could keep them alive is by subjecting them to an immense deal of restraint and imprisonment.
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Pff, I'd kill myself right away if I thought I was about to be put back in an institution, whether I was suicidal at the time or not. Those places are pretty much the opposite of a good idea if you want someone to stop being suicidal.
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I for one do not support assisted suicide or suicide in general. As one who was pretty close to committing suicide once, I think I can make that stance with a degree of credence. However, I do agree with you fully on the matter of treatment. Those people have problems, and I can empathize with them. If they can be stopped from killing themselves in time, they ought to be better treated.
ive also had at least one friend kill themselves. i also had one mentally unstable ex girlfriend who has first hand experience on how cops treat the insane. keep in mind that (at least in the us) if the cops arrest someone attempting suicide, until they see a judge, they are still treated as a potential criminal (also suicide is still illegal in the us). they are usually isolated and put under a suicide watch until that happens. maybe if they are lucky they will have a jail shrink on hand. might work differently in other states, but i cant see it being that different.
...Of course, it may help to do a bit more research into what a person who is stopped from committing suicide is charged with and how they are dealt with legally before making such a blanket statement. The reasons for the action must also be worthy of consideration in dealing with prevented suicides, etc., etc.
it would help, and id be happy to eyeball the results of such research. but ive not time for that kind of intellectual wankery. we cant all afford to act like college students forever, no work would ever get done (not that i do any). first hand anecdotal evidence is all i need to notice a pattern. i might not be able to say that its a totally accurate picture, but its enough that i can tell that suicidal people arent treated too well.
Although, I think immediately agreeing to let someone kill themselves would be just as wrong as forever preventing them from doing it. People can change their minds, and they should be encouraged to really consider what they're doing before going down that road. Something *along the lines* of being allowed to do it, but only after waiting two years and meeting with a therapist (note: NOT confined to an institution unless the person chooses so).
yea, its probably not a good idea to hook them up to a death rig and toss em a button as soon as they walk in the door. should probibly give them a week to think it over in a safe, comfortable environment, and give them access to shrinks and therapists. they would be allowed to leave at any time. of course after this consideration period, they should be allowed to carry out the suicide whenever they want, or stay a little longer. not too much longer, the cost of running such a thing would be huge, and there would be those who would take advantage of it by falsely claiming to be suicidal.
Pff, I'd kill myself right away if I thought I was about to be put back in an institution, whether I was suicidal at the time or not. Those places are pretty much the opposite of a good idea if you want someone to stop being suicidal.
this^
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Yea. i've talked to some other people that have been in institutions, and i think they'd agree with zack's sentiment :(
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If you catch them, crisis averted.
If you don't, it's no worse than what they were going to try in the first place.
Actually many people climb back over and decide not to jump. In which case you've just pushed someone to their death who would have lived if you'd done nothing.
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Then why intervene at all, which I'm assuming is what most people think one should do?
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to avoid feeling guilty if you have the opportunity to intervene, don't, and they jump
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**** that, I'm not going to feel guilty if they're intent on doing themselves in. And if they jump, they obviously are.
I have surmised from this thread that intervening is more risky than just letting them do whatever. Good to know.
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**** that, I'm not going to feel guilty if they're intent on doing themselves in. And if they jump, they obviously are.
I have surmised from this thread that intervening is more risky than just letting them do whatever. Good to know.
Maybe intervening physically. A few well-chosen words could still work. If you're worried about saying the wrong thing, I've heard that cold readers can figure out amazing things about a person.
@iamzack I'm sure you'd do fine.
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**** that, I'm not going to feel guilty if they're intent on doing themselves in. And if they jump, they obviously are.
I have surmised from this thread that intervening is more risky than just letting them do whatever. Good to know.
Intervene physically if the odds are in your favour. You were saying intervene physically even if they're not cause so what if someone falls to their death cause of you, they were going to do that anyway. I was pointing out that perhaps they weren't and you've basically killed someone.
Suicide prevention is a very delicate matter, you can't charge in like a bull in a china shop. If that is the only tactic you are capable of, then you should stay out of it. You're obviously the Arnold Rimmer of HLP if that's all you can do. :p
Rimmer: I used to be in the Samaritans.
Lister: I know. For one morning.
Rimmer: I couldn't take any more.
Lister: I don't blame you. You spoke to five people and they all committed suicide. I wouldn't mind, but one was a wrong number! He only phoned up for the cricket scores!