Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Marcov on December 27, 2010, 07:27:18 am
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Some evidences support this question.
Firstly, in the second mission (The Place of Chariots), Beta wing is ordered to scan NTF cargo boxes, which, mysteriously, is unscannable. It is possible that Allied Command jammed the devices of those Terran fighters or something, since they didn't want to reveal ETAK yet; if ETAK is immediately discovered, Command'll have to order the Alliance to diminish this project, or else Command will sound ridicolous. Command only reveals it later in the game, once it's already completed and ready for use on the Shivans.
Secondly, in the third mission (The Romans Blunder), Alpha 2 argues that the Alliance hasn't set a blockade on the node. It seems somehow obvious that Command's reply is fake (they say that the blockade has been sent elswhere in the system to do important business), since swerving away from the destruction of a hostile flagship is an illogical tactic to perform.
Moreover, Bosch actually says his famous line:
"I regret your efforts to intercept us have failed, pilots. You would be well advised to question the wisdom of your leaders.
Bosch regrets that Alpha and Beta wing have failed in their mission to intercept his ship, most probably, since Command didn't want the Iceni to be destroyed in the first place. Bosch advises the player to "question the wisdom of the leaders", which further supports the theory that Command intentionally allowed Bosch to succeed in his communication of the Shivans. To "question the wisdom of your leaders" means that Command's wisdom may have been mistaken in the eyes of mere pilots, and that the real information, which was to allow Bosch to succeed, is top secret.
Why top secret? Of course, Command wouldn't want the populace to find out that they're actually supporting the enemy. To explain why communication with a nemesis that attacks for no reason, and killed billions of innocent lives, will be completely unheard of and tremendously hard to explain.
These are two logical evidences that I've picked up on supporting this statement of Command allowing Bosch to use his ETAK.
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They let Bosch escape to allow him to finish ETAK so they could steal it later, which is why there's no missions involving chasing him until later.
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Probably the main point is that Bosch was actually good luck for the GTVA since he's one guy who looks hostile and communicates to Shivans, giving the GTVA benefit whilst stopping the masses from cursing Command for their intentions on Bosch.
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yeah we've known this for ten years or so, it's a pretty clever bit of implied storytelling on V's part
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Other instances include the miraculous coincidence of the Colossus powering-down in "Endgame" as well as Command ordering the 203rd not to engage the Iceni in "Speaking in Tongues".
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At first I thought the GTVA were actually afraid of the Iceni. If it was related to ETAK, believed to be a weapon of mass destruction, it also was a powerful opponent to face in battle. For the record, it may have pulverized the task force sent to blockade the Sirius jump node in Deneb.
Obviously, this doesn't explain many other episodes, but IMHO it's still worth some consideration.
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At first I thought the GTVA were actually afraid of the Iceni. If it was related to ETAK, believed to be a weapon of mass destruction, it also was a powerful opponent to face in battle. For the record, it may have pulverized the task force sent to blockade the Sirius jump node in Deneb.
Obviously, this doesn't explain many other episodes, but IMHO it's still worth some consideration.
It's not worth any consideration since there were no debris present when the player jumps in and command tells you the blockade force had been moved away.
Saying it was because they feared the Iceni would be an inconsistency more than anything.
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yeah the iceni definitely didn't blow up the blockade, command let bosch escape
fortunately we can all live with being pawns because the game makes sense
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I was refering to a risk, not a known fact. Command may have moved the task force away because the GTVA were afraid of ETAK.
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At first I thought the GTVA were actually afraid of the Iceni. If it was related to ETAK, believed to be a weapon of mass destruction, it also was a powerful opponent to face in battle.
This part is relevant regardless. Unlikely, but relevant. Certainly that was the tale the GTVA was spinning to people at the point of fire; if some of them reacted to it that way, I would not be surprised.
It's also not necessarily certain the Command, as in the guy who speaks to you, really knew anything more than you did.
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I've always wondered what that deep voiced black guy's job really was, I mean was he the CinC of the GTVA armada or just a lowly dispatch?
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I think he was just a comms officer, admiral won't bother with talking to fighter pilots.
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I too believe it was a comms officer. Just notice how many times he says "we"... doesn't really sound like the guy who decides what to do.
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But at the same time comms officers are not lowely. The fighteres decide the fate of most capital ships, and even destroyers in some big battles. Its not too unlikely that the Captain or Admiral of a cap ship would speak directly with the fighter pilots giving them real time instructions in what to target etc.
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Well, it happens in Admiral Petrarch's case.
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Admirals have better things to do most of the time.
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Executive officer?
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He may have been third fleet command's liason to the Aquitaine or something, explains why you only ever got the one command guy.
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He was probably one of these guys (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/aerospacebattlemanager.cfm).
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I think that that black guy is really a comms officer, and that Admirals don't really speak to pilots since they were busy doing paperwork or something, or, while fighting, the Admiral is too busy commanding his gunners and crew.
Also, Command is always referred to as a "they", so it's obvious that the guy you see onscreen is simply a communications guy, and Command is an entire structure of GTVA personnel.
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Did you click on my link? Those kind of blokes do more or less, exactly the kind of stuff that 'Command' is seen doing. Command is probably more likely a term for where he's being stationed/location of incoming signal rather than who he is.
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this :yes:
and on topic, what about a conspiracy theory: A a high ranked traitor, member of the "command" is trying to help Bosch.
It's a bit strange for the GTVA to want Bosch to succeed in his plan. It could lead to an alliance between Shivans and an enemy of Vasudans, equal partners of the GTVA.
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Who's to say the Vasudan elements of the GTVA weren't also in on letting Bosch succeed with ETAK? In any case I think the spooks wanted a card in hand if ever the Shivans were to invade again...which they did.
There's no way of knowing if ETAK really did allow coherent communication with the Shivans or simply caught their attention. Regardless, soon after Bosch used the device a Jugger fleet showed up and blew up Capella. We'll probably never know why all this happened but ETAK and the Capella nova are definitely related in some way imho.
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Why would the Vasudans want Bosch to get ETAK done and functioning, if it would have been used to terminate them all? Regardless of what the Vasudans knew (weapon of mass destruction first, way to communicate with the Shivans then), things would have never gone well for them.
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Why would the Vasudans want Bosch to get ETAK done and functioning, if it would have been used to terminate them all? Regardless of what the Vasudans knew (weapon of mass destruction first, way to communicate with the Shivans then), things would have never gone well for them.
Consider that the Vasudans may have wanted the ETAK device functional as much as Bosch did, but planned to use it in a different way (preferably one that didn't entail their extermination).
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One way... like? Do you mind posting an example?
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One way... like? Do you mind posting an example?
Uh. ETAK is a communications device. You could, I dunno, use it to communicate with the Shivans? Maybe?
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They found out what ETAK was later on. Until a given moment, they thought it was a weapon of mass destruction, and considering the NTF's obvious racism the Vasudans should have never, ever allowed Bosch to complete ETAK and use it. They probably were 101% sure Bosch would have used the "weapon" to terminate the Vasudans first.
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They found out what ETAK was later on. Until a given moment, they thought it was a weapon of mass destruction, and considering the NTF's obvious racism the Vasudans should have never, ever allowed Bosch to complete ETAK and use it. They probably were 101% sure Bosch would have used the "weapon" to terminate the Vasudans first.
I think the idea of ETAK as a weapon of mass destruction might have been dispelled as early as 'Romans Blunder'. It's possible the GTVA feared ETAK might have destroyed the blockade, but given how it was believed to be in its early stages and how the Iceni had showed very little combat abilities in the leadup to that battle, I seriously doubt that hypothesis.
Admiral Ahmose's motives are also unclear. He might have been trying to destroy ETAK before it could be completed, or he could have simply been trying to end the rebellion then and there.
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I think the first part of your post is misleading. The fact that the Bodicea/Iceni seemed weak in the asteroid field doesn't mean Bosch was uncapable of activating an early prototype of ETAK to wipe out the blockade force. ETAK may have increased the power of beam weapons or something like that... not a good thing for GTVA forces.
Rebels&Renegades doesn't prove that ETAK wasn't a (good) weapon, because the Vasudans knew they caught the Iceni by surprise, without giving it a chance to power up the device (and we don't know how much time it needed to load). The operator aboard the Iceni reported that more "ships" were headed their way after the Yaaru was destroyed, but we find just one corvette - the Asar. So, even if they were all renegades, some may have aborted their attack on the Iceni a moment before jumping directly to the command ship.
I strongly believe the true nature of ETAK became "known" to the GTVA only after that mission, where a simple scan of the Iceni would have revealed its structure and prove it wasn't a weapon sensu stricto.
On a side note, I missed our awesome discussions about the FreeSpace universe. :)
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I think the first part of your post is misleading. The fact that the Bodicea/Iceni seemed weak in the asteroid field doesn't mean Bosch was uncapable of activating an early prototype of ETAK to wipe out the blockade force. ETAK may have increased the power of beam weapons or something like that... not a good thing for GTVA forces.
The GTVA had no idea at all what ETAK was. The fact that they even suspected it might be a weapon of mass destruction shows how little they knew about its nature. I certainly doubt the GTVA would have withdrawn the blockade acting on virtually baseless information suggesting ETAK might have been a weapon of mass destruction. Furthermore, had ETAK been a weapon of mass destruction, Command would probably have attempted to disable and capture the Iceni with ETAK still in an embryonic stage, rather than allow it to fall back into enemy hands. If Command was so scared of ETAK, surely they wouldn't have allowed Bosch to get this weapon potentially capable of turning the tide of the war back into Polaris.
Also, the fact that Delta wing from the previous mission was capable of basically shattering the Iceni's defences without much effort, and that Bosch was practically begging to be let off at that point (as well as Command's response - "There will be no negotiations, Bosch"), really doesn't suggest at all to me that Command had any fear of any suggested "WMD" whatsoever.
My personal theory in this regard is that Command didn't know what ETAK was in "Place of Chariots", and ordered Alpha/Beta wings to destroy the cargo acting on information available to him at the time. However, between "Place of Chariots" and "The Romans' Blunder", there was a marked change in Command's behaviour. He went from ordering Bosch's destruction in the previous mission to allowing him to escape in the next. I suspect Command (or mission control) was informed by higher powers that the Allied Command did not want Iceni (with ETAK onboard) to be destroyed, and thus allowed Bosch to escape.
Rebels&Renegades doesn't prove that ETAK wasn't a (good) weapon, because the Vasudans knew they caught the Iceni by surprise, without giving it a chance to power up the device (and we don't know how much time it needed to load). The operator aboard the Iceni reported that more "ships" were headed their way after the Yaaru was destroyed, but we find just one corvette - the Asar. So, even if they were all renegades, some may have aborted their attack on the Iceni a moment before jumping directly to the command ship.
Notice how ETAK is only referred to as a weapon of mass destruction on two occasions, and both of these are purely conjectural and came from low-level sources. I don't believe Allied Command at the highest levels believed ETAK was a WMD. Either way, even if they did, I do not think they'd simply allow it to keep slipping through their fingers. If you ask me, they'd have attempted to capture or destroy it as soon as possible to prevent it being used against them, rather than repeatedly bungling it up.
I strongly believe the true nature of ETAK became "known" to the GTVA only after that mission, where a simple scan of the Iceni would have revealed its structure and prove it wasn't a weapon sensu stricto.
I find this unlikely. The GTVA had an SOC operation ongoing for quite a while. Snipes had been undercover for six months. The GTVA had numerous other undercover operatives in the NTF (pilot of the Sunder, crew chief of the 185th). If they only got a scan by that point, their spies must've been really, really useless. :P
On a side note, I missed our awesome discussions about the FreeSpace universe. :)
Me too. <3
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Simple guess: the NTF is spending time and efforts on something called ETAK. Don't you think it'd be logical to assume ETAK was something bad for the GTVA? If an outgunned, outnumbered and outclassed faction decides to focus on a project like ETAK instead of trying desperately to fill the gaps and match the GTVA, strategists should consider ETAK a powerful weapon.
That said, what happened in Deneb's asteroid field can be explained very easily. First of all, ETAK was thought to be a weapon of mass destruction supposedly uneffective against fighters and bombers. More importantly, at the time Alpha and Beta attacked the Boadicea, ETAK may have been unactive. Bosch was kind of afraid of that GTVA strike force, but that may have been bluffing. "I'm afraid, if you send your fleet I'll be doomed!" is the perfect way to actually lure the enemy and wipe it out.
Command may have anticipated Bosch's bluffing and reacted accordingly, ordering the blockade force to jump out. Evading direct contact with an enemy you know nothing about about is, most of the times, a wise move.
Question: what's the point in letting the player scan the Iceni if SOC did it already? As far as I can say that was the first time an SOC unit faced the Iceni. Heh, the purpose of that whole operation was to learn more about the frigate. Why would SOC risk operatives to (re)gather info they already have?
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The GTVA had no idea at all what ETAK was. The fact that they even suspected it might be a weapon of mass destruction shows how little they knew about its nature. I certainly doubt the GTVA would have withdrawn the blockade acting on virtually baseless information suggesting ETAK might have been a weapon of mass destruction. Furthermore, had ETAK been a weapon of mass destruction, Command would probably have attempted to disable and capture the Iceni with ETAK still in an embryonic stage, rather than allow it to fall back into enemy hands. If Command was so scared of ETAK, surely they wouldn't have allowed Bosch to get this weapon potentially capable of turning the tide of the war back into Polaris.
But you've said it there: if the GTVA had no idea what ETAK was then why did they fail to mount a serious capture operation when they had numerous chances?
I don't see that command 'allowed' anything. The GTVA quite obviously outmatched the rebels but that's not to say the NTF was not perfectly capable of protecting their assets, namely ETAK. It's possible that inbetween 'The Place of Chariots' and 'The Romans Blunder' that the deal Bosch was talking about (withdrawing his forces from Sirius) came to fruition and in return allied command removed the blockade. I was under the impression that the GTVA was occupying Sirius from then on until Koth struck back and wiped out the 6th Fleet.
Also, the fact that Delta wing from the previous mission was capable of basically shattering the Iceni's defences without much effort, and that Bosch was practically begging to be let off at that point (as well as Command's response - "There will be no negotiations, Bosch"), really doesn't suggest at all to me that Command had any fear of any suggested "WMD" whatsoever.
My personal theory in this regard is that Command didn't know what ETAK was in "Place of Chariots", and ordered Alpha/Beta wings to destroy the cargo acting on information available to him at the time. However, between "Place of Chariots" and "The Romans' Blunder", there was a marked change in Command's behaviour. He went from ordering Bosch's destruction in the previous mission to allowing him to escape in the next. I suspect Command (or mission control) was informed by higher powers that the Allied Command did not want Iceni (with ETAK onboard) to be destroyed, and thus allowed Bosch to escape.
Iceni escaped of it's own volition (no pun intended) in 'The Place of Chariots'. Delta wing was able to give it a good pounding yes, but they were unable to disable the ship. Like I said it's possible that Bosch's deal regarding Sirius went ahead. Not to say allied command was not unaware of ETAK's nature though.
Notice how ETAK is only referred to as a weapon of mass destruction on two occasions, and both of these are purely conjectural and came from low-level sources. I don't believe Allied Command at the highest levels believed ETAK was a WMD. Either way, even if they did, I do not think they'd simply allow it to keep slipping through their fingers. If you ask me, they'd have attempted to capture or destroy it as soon as possible to prevent it being used against them, rather than repeatedly bungling it up.
I'm fairly certain Admiral Petrarch speculated on ETAK being a WMD, but I could be wrong. It might have been he was attempting to hide the higher-ups knowledge of what they suspected the device really was or he really didn't know.
I suspect now though that contrary to what I stated earlier the Vasudan half of the GTVA genuinely hadn't any idea what ETAK was while the Terran half may have had some knowledge. Admiral Ahmose may have somehow stumbled across Terran-held information regarding the device and decided that the possible threat to the Vasudan species was too great to ignore. So he acted.
I find this unlikely. The GTVA had an SOC operation ongoing for quite a while. Snipes had been undercover for six months. The GTVA had numerous other undercover operatives in the NTF (pilot of the Sunder, crew chief of the 185th). If they only got a scan by that point, their spies must've been really, really useless. :P
Exactly, 6 months! That's definitely enough time for the GTVI to have worked up some clue as to what ETAK was. Obviously not full knowledge or else Snipes wouldn't have been asking for a scan of the Iceni, but perhaps a small glimpse into the nature of the device.
Got ninja'ed:
Command may have anticipated Bosch's bluffing and reacted accordingly, ordering the blockade force to jump out. Evading direct contact with an enemy you know nothing about about is, most of the times, a wise move.
Yeah cos we all know how wise command is. :P Seriously though the GTVA isn't known for being cautious. Hell when the Shivans showed up they chased the bastards into the neula and beyond. Those are some real cojones right there!
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Nice thought on the "deal" between Bosch and Command. I've never cared about it, but you just came out with interesting statements that may as well explain.
In fact, the battle for Deneb pretty much ends after the Iceni is escaped. The system's secured because other NTF forces a) already escaped, b) have been forced to surrender and c) were trying to escape, but got intercepted before they could (see Glorious and Impervious).
In case of a deal between the parts, NTF officers should have raised concern over Bosch's leadership, or simply accepted that passively. We know Bosch didn't care about NTF forces, all he wanted was to bring the ETAK project to fruition.
On a side note, Buckshee, it wasn't Admiral Petrarch to point ETAK out as a WMD. At the beginning it was Captain Loukakis (53rd Hammerheads), but if I remember well that possible nature of ETAK is also mentioned near the beginning of the first loop's command briefing.
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Simple guess: the NTF is spending time and efforts on something called ETAK. Don't you think it'd be logical to assume ETAK was something bad for the GTVA? If an outgunned, outnumbered and outclassed faction decides to focus on a project like ETAK instead of trying desperately to fill the gaps and match the GTVA, strategists should consider ETAK a powerful weapon.
This still does not explain why the GTVA didn't try to stop the Iceni. I don't view allowing the Iceni to slip by on numerous occassions as attempts on the part of the GTVA to stop the NTF from getting it. If ETAK was so dangerous, why the hell would the GTVA do exactly the opposite of what would stop it from being used?
That said, what happened in Deneb's asteroid field can be explained very easily. First of all, ETAK was thought to be a weapon of mass destruction supposedly uneffective against fighters and bombers. More importantly, at the time Alpha and Beta attacked the Boadicea, ETAK may have been unactive. Bosch was kind of afraid of that GTVA strike force, but that may have been bluffing. "I'm afraid, if you send your fleet I'll be doomed!" is the perfect way to actually lure the enemy and wipe it out.
Command may have anticipated Bosch's bluffing and reacted accordingly, ordering the blockade force to jump out. Evading direct contact with an enemy you know nothing about about is, most of the times, a wise move.
That's a lot of conjecture. For this to be true, you have to assume all of the following:
1) Command believed ETAK was a WMD
2) Command believed ETAK was ineffective against fighters and bombers
3) Command believed ETAK was capable of destroying fleets
4) Bosch was bluffing in an attempt to lure the GTVA out
5) Command knew this, and was also bluffing
Where did all these assumptions come from? This is an extremely contrived explanation for something relatively simple. Occam's Razor, I'm afraid. I'm sure you know the Latin. :P
Question: what's the point in letting the player scan the Iceni if SOC did it already? As far as I can say that was the first time an SOC unit faced the Iceni. Heh, the purpose of that whole operation was to learn more about the frigate. Why would SOC risk operatives to (re)gather info they already have?
The covert operation was to find more about ETAK. The GTVA probably knew about the purpose of ETAK, but not the specifics. They still wanted more data on ETAK. I didn't say the SOC already had scans of the Iceni, just that they already knew about the purpose and nature of ETAK.
Also, the objective of the mission was not to find more about the frigate. I don't even know where you got that from.
But you've said it there: if the GTVA had no idea what ETAK was then why did they fail to mount a serious capture operation when they had numerous chances?
Perhaps they wanted Bosch to complete his research before mounting a capture. Once Bosch's regime begins to collapse, they do attempt to capture - They succeeded in capturing the Sunder (which probably contained ETAK-related ****) and later the ETAK schematics ("Return to Babel").
I don't see that command 'allowed' anything. The GTVA quite obviously outmatched the rebels but that's not to say the NTF was not perfectly capable of protecting their assets, namely ETAK. It's possible that inbetween 'The Place of Chariots' and 'The Romans Blunder' that the deal Bosch was talking about (withdrawing his forces from Sirius) came to fruition and in return allied command removed the blockade. I was under the impression that the GTVA was occupying Sirius from then on until Koth struck back and wiped out the 6th Fleet.
It's heavily implied in Romans Blunder that Command allowed Bosch to escape. It's possible that the negotiation with Command did go through and Command allowed Bosch to escape in return for Bosch withdrawing from Deneb, but given the losses the NTF had apparently taken following the Aquitaine's entry (namely the loss of the NTD Jacobus referenced in Surrender Belisarius), the NTF was clearly on the backfoot and in retreat anyway. Additionally, the Psamtik was deployed to destroy the Impervious and Glorious regardless of any deal, which sounds a bit underhanded on Command's part.
Sirius did not fall to the GTVA until much later in the campaign. A two-pronged offensive on Sirius organized from Alpha Centauri and Deneb is described as failing (concurrent to Koth's offensive in Epsilon Pegasi). Sirius is described as falling after the Psamtik destroyed the NTD Cyrene (at the outset of the SOC loop).
Iceni escaped of it's own volition (no pun intended) in 'The Place of Chariots'. Delta wing was able to give it a good pounding yes, but they were unable to disable the ship.
This supports my theory that Command initially intended to destroy ETAK (and the Iceni, and Bosch) at that time but changed his mind between Place of Chariots and Romans Blunder.
Like I said it's possible that Bosch's deal regarding Sirius went ahead. Not to say allied command was not unaware of ETAK's nature though.
The deal with Bosch might have gone through, but considering how the NTF were already losing by that point, I don't see why Command would do this. As I said before, GTVA forces destroyed other ships withdrawing from Deneb at that point (a couple freighters, plus the Impervious and Glorious), if there was any deal Command probably went back on his word.
I'm fairly certain Admiral Petrarch speculated on ETAK being a WMD, but I could be wrong. It might have been he was attempting to hide the higher-ups knowledge of what they suspected the device really was or he really didn't know.
AFAIK the only references were from Loukakis and the SOC dude who explains your assignment undercover with the NTF. Petrarch did not speculate.
I suspect now though that contrary to what I stated earlier the Vasudan half of the GTVA genuinely hadn't any idea what ETAK was while the Terran half may have had some knowledge. Admiral Ahmose may have somehow stumbled across Terran-held information regarding the device and decided that the possible threat to the Vasudan species was too great to ignore. So he acted.
Vasudan elements were involved in the capture of the ETAK schematics (GVT Qeb, despite being a Terran Argo transport, was crewed by Vasudan marines). Either the Vasudans were being used as pawns or Vasudan Tactical Command had at least some knowledge of ETAK's purpose.
Exactly, 6 months! That's definitely enough time for the GTVI to have worked up some clue as to what ETAK was. Obviously not full knowledge or else Snipes wouldn't have been asking for a scan of the Iceni, but perhaps a small glimpse into the nature of the device.
Umm. My position is exactly that. The GTVA knew what ETAK was and wanted it.
Yeah cos we all know how wise command is. :P Seriously though the GTVA isn't known for being cautious. Hell when the Shivans showed up they chased the bastards into the neula and beyond. Those are some real cojones right there!
Agreed. Note also the sacrifice of the Phoenecia against the Sathanas in eerily similar circumstances.
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Crap, I got ninja'd. :P
I'm going to double post so that people can see this instead of it being lost in an edit.
Nice thought on the "deal" between Bosch and Command. I've never cared about it, but you just came out with interesting statements that may as well explain.
It explains a few things, yeah. I'd say this makes a lot more sense than Command being "scared" of ETAK.
In fact, the battle for Deneb pretty much ends after the Iceni is escaped. The system's secured because other NTF forces a) already escaped, b) have been forced to surrender and c) were trying to escape, but got intercepted before they could (see Glorious and Impervious).
Yeah. I think the NTF was on the backfoot by that point. The Aquitaine's arrival in Deneb was the turning point IMO.
In case of a deal between the parts, NTF officers should have raised concern over Bosch's leadership, or simply accepted that passively. We know Bosch didn't care about NTF forces, all he wanted was to bring the ETAK project to fruition.
NTF officers might not have known. Bosch could simply have told them "We're leaving," and like the stupid cattle they are they'd have followed him. :D
On a side note, Buckshee, it wasn't Admiral Petrarch to point ETAK out as a WMD. At the beginning it was Captain Loukakis (53rd Hammerheads), but if I remember well that possible nature of ETAK is also mentioned near the beginning of the first loop's command briefing.
Yep, as I said, by the SOC guy who explains your assignment (not Snipes).
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They found out what ETAK was later on. Until a given moment, they thought it was a weapon of mass destruction, and considering the NTF's obvious racism the Vasudans should have never, ever allowed Bosch to complete ETAK and use it. They probably were 101% sure Bosch would have used the "weapon" to terminate the Vasudans first.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Command told you what it was but Command isn't necessarily getting the full picture himself.
Besides, you're assuming that the Vasudans don't want a weapon of mass destruction they could theoretically use on the Shivans.
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The NTF were known not to like the Vasudans (euphemism). If they ever got a WMD ready, they would have used it first against a Vasudan colony, convoy or fleet. As a Vasudan strategist or admiral I would have done everything to prevent that.
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The NTF were known not to like the Vasudans (euphemism). If they ever got a WMD ready, they would have used it first against a Vasudan colony, convoy or fleet. As a Vasudan strategist or admiral I would have done everything to prevent that.
They have to successfully deliver the weapon first. This was a realistic possibility only within the first three or four missions of the game. It's arguable they might have managed it during Koth's attack on 6th Fleet too, but again their window to do so was very brief. After the deployment of the Colossus there was simply no point at which the NTF had a realistic possibility to punch through and deliver the weapon and still fight the war. Cold-blooded though it may seem, if they actually used it in combat they'd accomplish very little besides informing the GTVA of its existence and quite possibly giving them enough to build one of their own. They would have to target a core Vasudan world to make any difference, and that will destroy them.
Ideologically, there was no percentage in it. The Neo-Terran ideology might be anti-Vasudan but the concept it's named for, that of a new Earth, requires the taking and holding of territory and the effort to deliver this WMD to a target that would actually matter would destroy the NTF's means to take and hold the "sacred soil" that is the core of their philosophy.
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Because we don't know how big it was, any discussion about its possible delivery would be inaccurate and totally subjective. Even after what the 53rd did to that one cargo depot and convoy in Deneb the NTF managed to. As long as the Iceni was intact and Bosch was alive, ETAK had the potential to be developed and used. Only at the end of the first SOC loop the GTVA probably had a clearer idea of what ETAK was really about, and began not to "fear" it as it used to.
Speaking of Neo-Terran ideologies, sure the main goal was to restore what's been lost when Sol got isolated, but those ideologies were just fundaments that would have had half their social and political impact without racism towards the Vasudans. We know what Bosch said on the matter but we can't deny the fact that so many NTF officers and pilots were driven by racism.
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Because we don't know how big it was, any discussion about its possible delivery would be inaccurate and totally subjective.
Bull****. Any delivery mechanism has to be capable of intersystem subspace jumps at minimum. There is no point at which the NTF could have gotten such a thing to a target without sacrificing the majority of their forces to do it. Bosch's run to the nebula proves this.
The GTVA was also clearly aware that ETAK wasn't ready in the first mission sequence of the game, saying it was still under development. By the time its ready status became a debatable matter, there's no way to get it anywhere without losing the war.
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And that's before we get to a more pertinent question. If command did believe that ETAK was a weapon capable of taking out the blockade and therefore pulled it, WTF would they put the Colossus in harm's way at the Gamma Draconis portal only to then allow it to be sabotaged? :confused:
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Bull****. Any delivery mechanism has to be capable of intersystem subspace jumps at minimum. There is no point at which the NTF could have gotten such a thing to a target without sacrificing the majority of their forces to do it. Bosch's run to the nebula proves this.
And? We don't know how a WMD works in FreeSpace. We don't know anything about the tactics it requires. We don't know what ETAK as a WMD was supposed to be and work. How can we deduce the rest? As I said before it could have been a special reactor increasing the effectiveness of beams, or anything like that. How would we know?
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:wtf:
Am I the only one who sees the absurdity of what Mobius is saying? This is not only conjecture, this is conjecture on conjecture!
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Because we don't know enough to discuss that aspect of this subject. Simple.
Unless there's some canon information about WMDs that I'm missing. The only thing I can think of at the moment is the destruction of the Knossos portal.
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ETAK wasn't a WMD. Command thought it was a WMD. Command was wrong.
Need this go any further? Speculation on how powerful Command thought this non-existent WMD is really taking this to a new level of guesswork.
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Bull****. Any delivery mechanism has to be capable of intersystem subspace jumps at minimum. There is no point at which the NTF could have gotten such a thing to a target without sacrificing the majority of their forces to do it. Bosch's run to the nebula proves this.
Unless there's some canon information about WMDs that I'm missing. The only thing I can think of at the moment is the destruction of the Knossos portal.
Interestingly enough the meson bomb is not subspace capable, but it can be shifted around via vunerable triton freighter. Perhaps command was afraid ETAK was a meson bomb-esque device and so pulled their blockade, but being aware of such a device's limited ability to deploy they weren't so bothered about it getting anywhere near a habitable world. Or Bosch's deal regarding Sirius went through. (I meant to say withdraw to Sirius from Deneb in my earlier post, got the two systems mixed up.)
Yes Snail conjecture on conjecture is ridiculous, but seeing as how we haven't got a decisive canon answer then why not speculate for the sake of speculation?! Hell I don't think ETAK is a modulated quantum-pulse sender/receiver at all. I think it was a high quality constipation reliever that could potentially ruin the GTVA's economic monopoly on constipation relief, and 'cure' the Shivans of their evil bowel problems.
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ETAK wasn't a WMD. Command thought it was a WMD. Command was wrong.
Need this go any further? Speculation on how powerful Command thought this non-existent WMD is really taking this to a new level of guesswork.
We're not discussing the true nature of ETAK, but rather Command's weird behavior towards Bosch and Iceni, which is of course related to ETAK and what Command thought it was.
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We're not discussing the true nature of ETAK, but rather Command's weird behavior towards Bosch and Iceni, which is of course related to ETAK and what Command thought it was.
Maybe command had a good idea of what ETAK was all along. ETAK was a project based on the GTI's research on Shivan specimens during the great war. Maybe the GTI actually discovered that the Shivans utilised a form of quantum pulses for communication. Seeing as how the GTI were eliminated that particular information would only be available to the highest ranking officers of the GTVA of which Bosch would've been before his little crusade.
I think GTVA command may have had at least some idea that ETAK was Shivan-related from the outset and that like the Hades rebellion ETAK and the NTF posed a dire threat to the Vasudans.
Here's some speculative mumbo jumbo that's got me thinking: what if Bosch was sympathetic to the GTI of the Hades rebellion i.e. destroying the Vasudans. Obviously he couldn't have been on the losing side of that conflict or else he wouldn't have been a GTVA admiral, but suppose for a moment that in plundering old GTI research into Shivans he started to agree with the pro-terran ideology of nullifying any alliance with the Vasudans only being the crazy megalomaniac he is he took it one step further and felt an alliance with the Shivans was in humanity's better interest.
In other words Bosch was the GTI hitting back from the grave.
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He flat out claims he doesn't hate Vasudans and only started the war to cover his true purpose, an alliance with the Shivans. An alliance which for some reason he believes the Vasudans could never be part of.
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We're not discussing the true nature of ETAK, but rather Command's weird behavior towards Bosch and Iceni, which is of course related to ETAK and what Command thought it was.
We're guessing what Command was guessing ETAK was. This is pointlessly contrived. It makes a hundred times more sense to say that Command didn't want ETAK to be destroyed, rather than thinking up of all of this junk about what Command thought ETAK was and was not possibly or not possibly (impossibly) capable of doing or not doing if given the chance (or not).
It's heavily implied Command knew a lot more than they were letting on and that they were lying through their teeth. IMO, it's better to accept what was probably intended by the writers, rather than making some flawed extrapolations about Command's behavior and "fear" of this "weapon", when none and I really mean none of this was even vaguely implied in the campaign.
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I don't even think that Command actually believes ETAK is a WMD.
They just say it to the pilots. I'm pretty sure Command actually knows what it is, or at least has a vague idea (before they find out for sure whenever).
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I don't even think that Command actually believes ETAK is a WMD.
They just say it to the pilots. I'm pretty sure Command actually knows what it is, or at least has a vague idea (before they find out for sure whenever).
Absolutely. That's what is implied, and though there's no way to categorically disprove all this stuff about how Command was scared of Bosch and pulled the Sirius node blockade out of cowardice, there's so little supporting this hypothesis that I think we can pretty much write it off as rubbish.
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I'll point out again. If they were scared of Bosch then why did they later leave the Colossus around to face the Iceni and order the player not to fire on the Iceni in the nebula. Furthermore why the **** wouldn't they let Ahmose kill the Iceni if he could?
The theory is so full of holes I'm using it to drain my noodles for lunch. :p
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And? We don't know how a WMD works in FreeSpace. We don't know anything about the tactics it requires. We don't know what ETAK as a WMD was supposed to be and work. How can we deduce the rest? As I said before it could have been a special reactor increasing the effectiveness of beams, or anything like that. How would we know?
And that has absolutely nothing to do with my thesis that you still have to get it to the target somehow.
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I don't even think that Command actually believes ETAK is a WMD.
They just say it to the pilots. I'm pretty sure Command actually knows what it is, or at least has a vague idea (before they find out for sure whenever).
What would a group of rebels fighting a superior opponent do? The GTVA knew they were developing something called ETAK, and until they got a change to find out what it really was, they thought it was a WMD.
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What would a group of rebels fighting a superior opponent do? The GTVA knew they were developing something called ETAK, and until they got a change to find out what it really was, they thought it was a WMD.
They did not!
They only mentioned, "oh yeah it might be a WMD BTW". They never said "WE THINK IT'S A WMD RUN AWAY OMG OMG OMG"
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It doesn't mean they were willing to put their own assets at danger. They were cautious and we know it. They haven't even tried to attack the Sathanas without a full scan of the ship.
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They were cautious and we know it.
We do not know this. In fact the contrary argument, that Command let Bosch escape is heavily implied, not that Command was being cautious and moved the assets away as a precaution. That is complete fanwank.
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They were cautious and we know it.
We do not know this. In fact the contrary argument, that Command let Bosch escape is heavily implied, not that Command was being cautious and moved the assets away as a precaution. That is complete fanwank.
That term is a bit vulgar. I propose fanmasturbation be used instead.