[Dilmah G]

Did you click on my link? Those kind of blokes do more or less, exactly the kind of stuff that 'Command' is seen doing. Command is probably more likely a term for where he's being stationed/location of incoming signal rather than who he is.

[peterv]

this 

and on topic, what about a conspiracy theory: A a high ranked traitor, member of the "command" is trying to help Bosch.
It's a bit strange for the GTVA to want Bosch to succeed in his plan. It could lead to an alliance between Shivans and an enemy of Vasudans, equal partners of the GTVA.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Who's to say the Vasudan elements of the GTVA weren't also in on letting Bosch succeed with ETAK? In any case I think the spooks wanted a card in hand if ever the Shivans were to invade again...which they did.

There's no way of knowing if ETAK really did allow coherent communication with the Shivans or simply caught their attention. Regardless, soon after Bosch used the device a Jugger fleet showed up and blew up Capella. We'll probably never know why all this happened but ETAK and the Capella nova are definitely related in some way imho.

[Mobius]

Why would the Vasudans want Bosch to get ETAK done and functioning, if it would have been used to terminate them all? Regardless of what the Vasudans knew (weapon of mass destruction first, way to communicate with the Shivans then), things would have never gone well for them.

[Snail]

Why would the Vasudans want Bosch to get ETAK done and functioning, if it would have been used to terminate them all? Regardless of what the Vasudans knew (weapon of mass destruction first, way to communicate with the Shivans then), things would have never gone well for them.

Consider that the Vasudans may have wanted the ETAK device functional as much as Bosch did, but planned to use it in a different way (preferably one that didn't entail their extermination).

[Mobius]

One way... like? Do you mind posting an example?

[Snail]

One way... like? Do you mind posting an example?

Uh. ETAK is a communications device. You could, I dunno, use it to communicate with the Shivans? Maybe?

[Mobius]

They found out what ETAK was later on. Until a given moment, they thought it was a weapon of mass destruction, and considering the NTF's obvious racism the Vasudans should have never, ever allowed Bosch to complete ETAK and use it. They probably were 101% sure Bosch would have used the "weapon" to terminate the Vasudans first.

[Snail]

They found out what ETAK was later on. Until a given moment, they thought it was a weapon of mass destruction, and considering the NTF's obvious racism the Vasudans should have never, ever allowed Bosch to complete ETAK and use it. They probably were 101% sure Bosch would have used the "weapon" to terminate the Vasudans first.

I think the idea of ETAK as a weapon of mass destruction might have been dispelled as early as 'Romans Blunder'. It's possible the GTVA feared ETAK might have destroyed the blockade, but given how it was believed to be in its early stages and how the Iceni had showed very little combat abilities in the leadup to that battle, I seriously doubt that hypothesis.

Admiral Ahmose's motives are also unclear. He might have been trying to destroy ETAK before it could be completed, or he could have simply been trying to end the rebellion then and there.

[Mobius]

I think the first part of your post is misleading. The fact that the Bodicea/Iceni seemed weak in the asteroid field doesn't mean Bosch was uncapable of activating an early prototype of ETAK to wipe out the blockade force. ETAK may have increased the power of beam weapons or something like that... not a good thing for GTVA forces.

Rebels&Renegades doesn't prove that ETAK wasn't a (good) weapon, because the Vasudans knew they caught the Iceni by surprise, without giving it a chance to power up the device (and we don't know how much time it needed to load). The operator aboard the Iceni reported that more "ships" were headed their way after the Yaaru was destroyed, but we find just one corvette - the Asar. So, even if they were all renegades, some may have aborted their attack on the Iceni a moment before jumping directly to the command ship.

I strongly believe the true nature of ETAK became "known" to the GTVA only after that mission, where a simple scan of the Iceni would have revealed its structure and prove it wasn't a weapon sensu stricto.


On a side note, I missed our awesome discussions about the FreeSpace universe.

[Snail]

I think the first part of your post is misleading. The fact that the Bodicea/Iceni seemed weak in the asteroid field doesn't mean Bosch was uncapable of activating an early prototype of ETAK to wipe out the blockade force. ETAK may have increased the power of beam weapons or something like that... not a good thing for GTVA forces.

The GTVA had no idea at all what ETAK was. The fact that they even suspected it might be a weapon of mass destruction shows how little they knew about its nature. I certainly doubt the GTVA would have withdrawn the blockade acting on virtually baseless information suggesting ETAK might have been a weapon of mass destruction. Furthermore, had ETAK been a weapon of mass destruction, Command would probably have attempted to disable and capture the Iceni with ETAK still in an embryonic stage, rather than allow it to fall back into enemy hands. If Command was so scared of ETAK, surely they wouldn't have allowed Bosch to get this weapon potentially capable of turning the tide of the war back into Polaris.

Also, the fact that Delta wing from the previous mission was capable of basically shattering the Iceni's defences without much effort, and that Bosch was practically begging to be let off at that point (as well as Command's response - "There will be no negotiations, Bosch"), really doesn't suggest at all to me that Command had any fear of any suggested "WMD" whatsoever.

My personal theory in this regard is that Command didn't know what ETAK was in "Place of Chariots", and ordered Alpha/Beta wings to destroy the cargo acting on information available to him at the time. However, between "Place of Chariots" and "The Romans' Blunder", there was a marked change in Command's behaviour. He went from ordering Bosch's destruction in the previous mission to allowing him to escape in the next. I suspect Command (or mission control) was informed by higher powers that the Allied Command did not want Iceni (with ETAK onboard) to be destroyed, and thus allowed Bosch to escape.

Rebels&Renegades doesn't prove that ETAK wasn't a (good) weapon, because the Vasudans knew they caught the Iceni by surprise, without giving it a chance to power up the device (and we don't know how much time it needed to load). The operator aboard the Iceni reported that more "ships" were headed their way after the Yaaru was destroyed, but we find just one corvette - the Asar. So, even if they were all renegades, some may have aborted their attack on the Iceni a moment before jumping directly to the command ship.

Notice how ETAK is only referred to as a weapon of mass destruction on two occasions, and both of these are purely conjectural and came from low-level sources. I don't believe Allied Command at the highest levels believed ETAK was a WMD. Either way, even if they did, I do not think they'd simply allow it to keep slipping through their fingers. If you ask me, they'd have attempted to capture or destroy it as soon as possible to prevent it being used against them, rather than repeatedly bungling it up.

I strongly believe the true nature of ETAK became "known" to the GTVA only after that mission, where a simple scan of the Iceni would have revealed its structure and prove it wasn't a weapon sensu stricto.

I find this unlikely. The GTVA had an SOC operation ongoing for quite a while. Snipes had been undercover for six months. The GTVA had numerous other undercover operatives in the NTF (pilot of the Sunder, crew chief of the 185th). If they only got a scan by that point, their spies must've been really, really useless.

On a side note, I missed our awesome discussions about the FreeSpace universe.

Me too. <3

[Mobius]

Simple guess: the NTF is spending time and efforts on something called ETAK. Don't you think it'd be logical to assume ETAK was something bad for the GTVA? If an outgunned, outnumbered and outclassed faction decides to focus on a project like ETAK instead of trying desperately to fill the gaps and match the GTVA, strategists should consider ETAK a powerful weapon.

That said, what happened in Deneb's asteroid field can be explained very easily. First of all, ETAK was thought to be a weapon of mass destruction supposedly uneffective against fighters and bombers. More importantly, at the time Alpha and Beta attacked the Boadicea, ETAK may have been unactive. Bosch was kind of afraid of that GTVA strike force, but that may have been bluffing. "I'm afraid, if you send your fleet I'll be doomed!" is the perfect way to actually lure the enemy and wipe it out.

Command may have anticipated Bosch's bluffing and reacted accordingly, ordering the blockade force to jump out. Evading direct contact with an enemy you know nothing about about is, most of the times, a wise move.


Question: what's the point in letting the player scan the Iceni if SOC did it already? As far as I can say that was the first time an SOC unit faced the Iceni. Heh, the purpose of that whole operation was to learn more about the frigate. Why would SOC risk operatives to (re)gather info they already have?

[Buckshee Rounds]

The GTVA had no idea at all what ETAK was. The fact that they even suspected it might be a weapon of mass destruction shows how little they knew about its nature. I certainly doubt the GTVA would have withdrawn the blockade acting on virtually baseless information suggesting ETAK might have been a weapon of mass destruction. Furthermore, had ETAK been a weapon of mass destruction, Command would probably have attempted to disable and capture the Iceni with ETAK still in an embryonic stage, rather than allow it to fall back into enemy hands. If Command was so scared of ETAK, surely they wouldn't have allowed Bosch to get this weapon potentially capable of turning the tide of the war back into Polaris.

But you've said it there: if the GTVA had no idea what ETAK was then why did they fail to mount a serious capture operation when they had numerous chances?

I don't see that command 'allowed' anything. The GTVA quite obviously outmatched the rebels but that's not to say the NTF was not perfectly capable of protecting their assets, namely ETAK. It's possible that inbetween 'The Place of Chariots' and 'The Romans Blunder' that the deal Bosch was talking about (withdrawing his forces from Sirius) came to fruition and in return allied command removed the blockade. I was under the impression that the GTVA was occupying Sirius from then on until Koth struck back and wiped out the 6th Fleet.

Also, the fact that Delta wing from the previous mission was capable of basically shattering the Iceni's defences without much effort, and that Bosch was practically begging to be let off at that point (as well as Command's response - "There will be no negotiations, Bosch"), really doesn't suggest at all to me that Command had any fear of any suggested "WMD" whatsoever.

My personal theory in this regard is that Command didn't know what ETAK was in "Place of Chariots", and ordered Alpha/Beta wings to destroy the cargo acting on information available to him at the time. However, between "Place of Chariots" and "The Romans' Blunder", there was a marked change in Command's behaviour. He went from ordering Bosch's destruction in the previous mission to allowing him to escape in the next. I suspect Command (or mission control) was informed by higher powers that the Allied Command did not want Iceni (with ETAK onboard) to be destroyed, and thus allowed Bosch to escape.

Iceni escaped of it's own volition (no pun intended) in 'The Place of Chariots'. Delta wing was able to give it a good pounding yes, but they were unable to disable the ship. Like I said it's possible that Bosch's deal regarding Sirius went ahead. Not to say allied command was not unaware of ETAK's nature though.

Notice how ETAK is only referred to as a weapon of mass destruction on two occasions, and both of these are purely conjectural and came from low-level sources. I don't believe Allied Command at the highest levels believed ETAK was a WMD. Either way, even if they did, I do not think they'd simply allow it to keep slipping through their fingers. If you ask me, they'd have attempted to capture or destroy it as soon as possible to prevent it being used against them, rather than repeatedly bungling it up.

I'm fairly certain Admiral Petrarch speculated on ETAK being a WMD, but I could be wrong. It might have been he was attempting to hide the higher-ups knowledge of what they suspected the device really was or he really didn't know.

I suspect now though that contrary to what I stated earlier the Vasudan half of the GTVA genuinely hadn't any idea what ETAK was while the Terran half may have had some knowledge. Admiral Ahmose may have somehow stumbled across Terran-held information regarding the device and decided that the possible threat to the Vasudan species was too great to ignore. So he acted.

I find this unlikely. The GTVA had an SOC operation ongoing for quite a while. Snipes had been undercover for six months. The GTVA had numerous other undercover operatives in the NTF (pilot of the Sunder, crew chief of the 185th). If they only got a scan by that point, their spies must've been really, really useless.

Exactly, 6 months! That's definitely enough time for the GTVI to have worked up some clue as to what ETAK was. Obviously not full knowledge or else Snipes wouldn't have been asking for a scan of the Iceni, but perhaps a small glimpse into the nature of the device.

Got ninja'ed:

Command may have anticipated Bosch's bluffing and reacted accordingly, ordering the blockade force to jump out. Evading direct contact with an enemy you know nothing about about is, most of the times, a wise move.

Yeah cos we all know how wise command is. Seriously though the GTVA isn't known for being cautious. Hell when the Shivans showed up they chased the bastards into the neula and beyond. Those are some real cojones right there!

[Mobius]

Nice thought on the "deal" between Bosch and Command. I've never cared about it, but you just came out with interesting statements that may as well explain.

In fact, the battle for Deneb pretty much ends after the Iceni is escaped. The system's secured because other NTF forces a) already escaped, b) have been forced to surrender and c) were trying to escape, but got intercepted before they could (see Glorious and Impervious).

In case of a deal between the parts, NTF officers should have raised concern over Bosch's leadership, or simply accepted that passively. We know Bosch didn't care about NTF forces, all he wanted was to bring the ETAK project to fruition.


On a side note, Buckshee, it wasn't Admiral Petrarch to point ETAK out as a WMD. At the beginning it was Captain Loukakis (53rd Hammerheads), but if I remember well that possible nature of ETAK is also mentioned near the beginning of the first loop's command briefing.

[Snail]

Simple guess: the NTF is spending time and efforts on something called ETAK. Don't you think it'd be logical to assume ETAK was something bad for the GTVA? If an outgunned, outnumbered and outclassed faction decides to focus on a project like ETAK instead of trying desperately to fill the gaps and match the GTVA, strategists should consider ETAK a powerful weapon.

This still does not explain why the GTVA didn't try to stop the Iceni. I don't view allowing the Iceni to slip by on numerous occassions as attempts on the part of the GTVA to stop the NTF from getting it. If ETAK was so dangerous, why the hell would the GTVA do exactly the opposite of what would stop it from being used?

That said, what happened in Deneb's asteroid field can be explained very easily. First of all, ETAK was thought to be a weapon of mass destruction supposedly uneffective against fighters and bombers. More importantly, at the time Alpha and Beta attacked the Boadicea, ETAK may have been unactive. Bosch was kind of afraid of that GTVA strike force, but that may have been bluffing. "I'm afraid, if you send your fleet I'll be doomed!" is the perfect way to actually lure the enemy and wipe it out.

Command may have anticipated Bosch's bluffing and reacted accordingly, ordering the blockade force to jump out. Evading direct contact with an enemy you know nothing about about is, most of the times, a wise move.

That's a lot of conjecture. For this to be true, you have to assume all of the following:
1) Command believed ETAK was a WMD
2) Command believed ETAK was ineffective against fighters and bombers
3) Command believed ETAK was capable of destroying fleets
4) Bosch was bluffing in an attempt to lure the GTVA out
5) Command knew this, and was also bluffing

Where did all these assumptions come from? This is an extremely contrived explanation for something relatively simple. Occam's Razor, I'm afraid. I'm sure you know the Latin.

Question: what's the point in letting the player scan the Iceni if SOC did it already? As far as I can say that was the first time an SOC unit faced the Iceni. Heh, the purpose of that whole operation was to learn more about the frigate. Why would SOC risk operatives to (re)gather info they already have?

The covert operation was to find more about ETAK. The GTVA probably knew about the purpose of ETAK, but not the specifics. They still wanted more data on ETAK. I didn't say the SOC already had scans of the Iceni, just that they already knew about the purpose and nature of ETAK.

Also, the objective of the mission was not to find more about the frigate. I don't even know where you got that from.

But you've said it there: if the GTVA had no idea what ETAK was then why did they fail to mount a serious capture operation when they had numerous chances?

Perhaps they wanted Bosch to complete his research before mounting a capture. Once Bosch's regime begins to collapse, they do attempt to capture - They succeeded in capturing the Sunder (which probably contained ETAK-related ****) and later the ETAK schematics ("Return to Babel").

I don't see that command 'allowed' anything. The GTVA quite obviously outmatched the rebels but that's not to say the NTF was not perfectly capable of protecting their assets, namely ETAK. It's possible that inbetween 'The Place of Chariots' and 'The Romans Blunder' that the deal Bosch was talking about (withdrawing his forces from Sirius) came to fruition and in return allied command removed the blockade. I was under the impression that the GTVA was occupying Sirius from then on until Koth struck back and wiped out the 6th Fleet.

It's heavily implied in Romans Blunder that Command allowed Bosch to escape. It's possible that the negotiation with Command did go through and Command allowed Bosch to escape in return for Bosch withdrawing from Deneb, but given the losses the NTF had apparently taken following the Aquitaine's entry (namely the loss of the NTD Jacobus referenced in Surrender Belisarius), the NTF was clearly on the backfoot and in retreat anyway. Additionally, the Psamtik was deployed to destroy the Impervious and Glorious regardless of any deal, which sounds a bit underhanded on Command's part.

Sirius did not fall to the GTVA until much later in the campaign. A two-pronged offensive on Sirius organized from Alpha Centauri and Deneb is described as failing (concurrent to Koth's offensive in Epsilon Pegasi). Sirius is described as falling after the Psamtik destroyed the NTD Cyrene (at the outset of the SOC loop).

Iceni escaped of it's own volition (no pun intended) in 'The Place of Chariots'. Delta wing was able to give it a good pounding yes, but they were unable to disable the ship.

This supports my theory that Command initially intended to destroy ETAK (and the Iceni, and Bosch) at that time but changed his mind between Place of Chariots and Romans Blunder.

Like I said it's possible that Bosch's deal regarding Sirius went ahead. Not to say allied command was not unaware of ETAK's nature though.

The deal with Bosch might have gone through, but considering how the NTF were already losing by that point, I don't see why Command would do this. As I said before, GTVA forces destroyed other ships withdrawing from Deneb at that point (a couple freighters, plus the Impervious and Glorious), if there was any deal Command probably went back on his word.

I'm fairly certain Admiral Petrarch speculated on ETAK being a WMD, but I could be wrong. It might have been he was attempting to hide the higher-ups knowledge of what they suspected the device really was or he really didn't know.

AFAIK the only references were from Loukakis and the SOC dude who explains your assignment undercover with the NTF. Petrarch did not speculate.

I suspect now though that contrary to what I stated earlier the Vasudan half of the GTVA genuinely hadn't any idea what ETAK was while the Terran half may have had some knowledge. Admiral Ahmose may have somehow stumbled across Terran-held information regarding the device and decided that the possible threat to the Vasudan species was too great to ignore. So he acted.

Vasudan elements were involved in the capture of the ETAK schematics (GVT Qeb, despite being a Terran Argo transport, was crewed by Vasudan marines). Either the Vasudans were being used as pawns or Vasudan Tactical Command had at least some knowledge of ETAK's purpose.

Exactly, 6 months! That's definitely enough time for the GTVI to have worked up some clue as to what ETAK was. Obviously not full knowledge or else Snipes wouldn't have been asking for a scan of the Iceni, but perhaps a small glimpse into the nature of the device.

Umm. My position is exactly that. The GTVA knew what ETAK was and wanted it.

Yeah cos we all know how wise command is. Seriously though the GTVA isn't known for being cautious. Hell when the Shivans showed up they chased the bastards into the neula and beyond. Those are some real cojones right there!

Agreed. Note also the sacrifice of the Phoenecia against the Sathanas in eerily similar circumstances.

[Snail]

Crap, I got ninja'd.

I'm going to double post so that people can see this instead of it being lost in an edit.

Nice thought on the "deal" between Bosch and Command. I've never cared about it, but you just came out with interesting statements that may as well explain.

It explains a few things, yeah. I'd say this makes a lot more sense than Command being "scared" of ETAK.

In fact, the battle for Deneb pretty much ends after the Iceni is escaped. The system's secured because other NTF forces a) already escaped, b) have been forced to surrender and c) were trying to escape, but got intercepted before they could (see Glorious and Impervious).

Yeah. I think the NTF was on the backfoot by that point. The Aquitaine's arrival in Deneb was the turning point IMO.

In case of a deal between the parts, NTF officers should have raised concern over Bosch's leadership, or simply accepted that passively. We know Bosch didn't care about NTF forces, all he wanted was to bring the ETAK project to fruition.

NTF officers might not have known. Bosch could simply have told them "We're leaving," and like the stupid cattle they are they'd have followed him.

On a side note, Buckshee, it wasn't Admiral Petrarch to point ETAK out as a WMD. At the beginning it was Captain Loukakis (53rd Hammerheads), but if I remember well that possible nature of ETAK is also mentioned near the beginning of the first loop's command briefing.

Yep, as I said, by the SOC guy who explains your assignment (not Snipes).

[NGTM-1R]

They found out what ETAK was later on. Until a given moment, they thought it was a weapon of mass destruction, and considering the NTF's obvious racism the Vasudans should have never, ever allowed Bosch to complete ETAK and use it. They probably were 101% sure Bosch would have used the "weapon" to terminate the Vasudans first.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Command told you what it was but Command isn't necessarily getting the full picture himself.

Besides, you're assuming that the Vasudans don't want a weapon of mass destruction they could theoretically use on the Shivans.

[Mobius]

The NTF were known not to like the Vasudans (euphemism). If they ever got a WMD ready, they would have used it first against a Vasudan colony, convoy or fleet. As a Vasudan strategist or admiral I would have done everything to prevent that.

[NGTM-1R]

The NTF were known not to like the Vasudans (euphemism). If they ever got a WMD ready, they would have used it first against a Vasudan colony, convoy or fleet. As a Vasudan strategist or admiral I would have done everything to prevent that.

They have to successfully deliver the weapon first. This was a realistic possibility only within the first three or four missions of the game. It's arguable they might have managed it during Koth's attack on 6th Fleet too, but again their window to do so was very brief. After the deployment of the Colossus there was simply no point at which the NTF had a realistic possibility to punch through and deliver the weapon and still fight the war. Cold-blooded though it may seem, if they actually used it in combat they'd accomplish very little besides informing the GTVA of its existence and quite possibly giving them enough to build one of their own. They would have to target a core Vasudan world to make any difference, and that will destroy them.

Ideologically, there was no percentage in it. The Neo-Terran ideology might be anti-Vasudan but the concept it's named for, that of a new Earth, requires the taking and holding of territory and the effort to deliver this WMD to a target that would actually matter would destroy the NTF's means to take and hold the "sacred soil" that is the core of their philosophy.

[Mobius]

Because we don't know how big it was, any discussion about its possible delivery would be inaccurate and totally subjective. Even after what the 53rd did to that one cargo depot and convoy in Deneb the NTF managed to. As long as the Iceni was intact and Bosch was alive, ETAK had the potential to be developed and used. Only at the end of the first SOC loop the GTVA probably had a clearer idea of what ETAK was really about, and began not to "fear" it as it used to.

Speaking of Neo-Terran ideologies, sure the main goal was to restore what's been lost when Sol got isolated, but those ideologies were just fundaments that would have had half their social and political impact without racism towards the Vasudans. We know what Bosch said on the matter but we can't deny the fact that so many NTF officers and pilots were driven by racism.