Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on January 28, 2011, 01:41:46 pm
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So Tunisia has fallen (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/14/AR2011011401131.html), Egypt has cut off it's internet to hold back its protests (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41307908/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/), Yemen is not looking to stable (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12295864), and Jordan has decided to join in the fun also (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/28/us-jordan-protests-idUSTRE70R4L120110128).
fun times. :)
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It will be interesting to see the political shape of the area once all this calms down. Other than that, there's a lot of mixed messages, I'm not entirely sure what lay at the heart of the protests.
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This title has other, more...immediately assumed...connotations. Just thought I'd point that out.
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This title has other, more...immediately assumed...connotations. Just thought I'd point that out.
Yeah, I thought that at first, as well
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There are hints egypts military may be sympathetic to the protestors, if so, current regime is boned. I hope the white house withdraws support of the current regime.
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Egypt's military isn't so much sympathetic with the protesters as it is losing sympathy with their current head of state; his chosen successor is not one they approve of.
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Just got a call from parents, said that the military personnel are taking off their uniforms and joining the protestors. That seems pretty dang sympathetic if you ask me.
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Just got a call from parents, said that the military personnel are taking off their uniforms and joining the protestors. That seems pretty dang sympathetic if you ask me.
Taking off your uniform is a symbolic act; in effect, you are proclaiming yourself and your actions to be individual rather than representing your service. What happened in Tunisia was very much the opposite, as whole units reacted, as military units in full uniform, to support the protesters. It's a very key difference in perception.
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(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2982/museumshield.jpg)
I have a new found respect for Egyptians.
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I suspect they've already had enough of people running off with their antiquities :(
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Muslims have been forming human shield lines in front of Christian churches during bombings, and Christians have been protecting Muslims as they prayed.
I think my head just imploded.
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I don't hold out a huge amount of optimism that these protests will lead to lasting concrete reforms, but hell, at least it's something. :yes:
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Muslims have been forming human shield lines in front of Christian churches during bombings, and Christians have been protecting Muslims as they prayed.
I think my head just imploded.
Well, there goes all the claims by christians that muslims are out to get them and vice versa. A nice little bit of religious harmony, exactly what I like to hear about.
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Mubarak just gave a speech, and made it clear he is not leaving.
This won't go well.
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Muslims have been forming human shield lines in front of Christian churches during bombings, and Christians have been protecting Muslims as they prayed.
I think my head just imploded.
Well, there goes all the claims by christians that muslims are out to get them and vice versa. A nice little bit of religious harmony, exactly what I like to hear about.
+1
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This title has other, more...immediately assumed...connotations. Just thought I'd point that out.
With Egypt and Jordan destabilizing, what's to think a certain mutual neighbor won't be a little closer to making the Middle East literally asplode?
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With Egypt and Jordan destabilizing, what's to think a certain mutual neighbor won't be a little closer to making the Middle East literally asplode?
The Israelis actually sort of like, or at least respect, the Jordanians.
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With Egypt and Jordan destabilizing, what's to think a certain mutual neighbor won't be a little closer to making the Middle East literally asplode?
The Israelis actually sort of like, or at least respect, the Jordanians.
Yeah, Jordan and Egypt are now two of Israel's primary buddies in the region. All that Six-Day War stuff did some good in the long run.
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Muslims have been forming human shield lines in front of Christian churches during bombings, and Christians have been protecting Muslims as they prayed.
I think my head just imploded.
I'm curious as to the source of this -- I couldn't imagine it happening in Egypt due to the xenophobia they have going on. I mean other than the image from Al Jazeera is there anything else on this? Meanwhile, I shall google.
Edit: found this - http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/Muslims+protect+churches/4078614/story.html
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The best part of this middle eastern domino effect is that it had nothing whatsoever to do with the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq... which, ostensibly, were supposed to serve as beacons of democracy.
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Yeah, Jordan and Egypt are now two of Israel's primary buddies in the region. All that Six-Day War stuff did some good in the long run.
Pretty much.
Jordan has certainly refused to participate in some of the others' ****slinging and if we did the whole "everybody go to war with Israel again" would probably sit it out. Admittedly, much of this has to do with the fact their military is a shambles and has been since the last time they went to war with Israel. However as nations bordering the country go they're the one who can't go "loldestroyIsrael" on a whim. This is a considerable improvement over the others.
Murabak has turned down Syria a few times on its anti-Israel plans and, well, as noted he's not down with Hamas and Hezbollah. I doubt anybody would actually consider the other side friendly, but their policies at least don't conflict much.
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Stupid ****ers (http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110129/ML.Egypt.Protest.Antiquities/). Riot against the government all you want, but stay the hell away from the museum.
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Why destroy a culture that you spent years trying to get back from invaders in the first place? This makes no sense....
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I don't think looters are required to make sense anymore...
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Why destroy a culture that you spent years trying to get back from invaders in the first place? This makes no sense....
The antiquities black market.
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http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/28/5941311-what-the-egyptian-government-doesnt-want-you-to-see
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQD-X9G9xfk&feature=player_embedded
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I don't entirely understand what's happening in that video...
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I don't entirely understand what's happening in that video...
Nothing.
That's why it's so awesome.
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Now this (http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=69208) looks interesting.
According to Hareetz Daily, on Saturday night Israeli Foreign Ministry issued a directive to around a dozen key embassies in the United States, Canada, China, Russia and several European countries.
The ambassadors were told to stress to their host countries the "importance of Egypt's stability", the report said. "In a special cable, they were told to get this word out as soon as possible."
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Geopolitics (http://www.neurope.eu/articles/104158.php) (Heh!)
At the end of the day, Israel's gas could possibly find a market in Europe, lessening its dependence on Russian natural gas. But as Gheit pointedly said: “The Russians are going to be very competitive and since they already have the pipelines from Gazprom, it becomes tough to compete with the Russians
[
(http://niqnaq.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/oilgas-lebanon-israel-400x452.jpg)
The question is what did Mubarak do to provoke Israels hostility? :lol:
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Now this (http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=69208) looks interesting.
According to Hareetz Daily, on Saturday night Israeli Foreign Ministry issued a directive to around a dozen key embassies in the United States, Canada, China, Russia and several European countries.
The ambassadors were told to stress to their host countries the "importance of Egypt's stability", the report said. "In a special cable, they were told to get this word out as soon as possible."
**** Israel.
Oh noes! If teh Arabs get a real Democracy they might not vote the way WE want them to!
Dictators who violate the human rights of their people are A-OK as long as they are pro Israel!
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Yeah, evil Israel is interested in stability of it's neighbours, that's unacceptable!
EDIT: I'm not saying that I agree with Israel's stance on situation in Egypt, but I see why they prefer Mubarak's predictable dictatorship instead of democracy.
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....but I see why they prefer Mubarak's predictable dictatorship instead of democracy.
I seriously believe that they don't anymore. Might sound like a conpiracy theory but i think that the "leaks" from Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs can only happen as a very clever propaganda.
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Hell, I'm not sure it has anything to do with democracy. Revolutions have a way of involving the neighbors whether the neighbors want to be or not.
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So, kinda less Mideast than the others in the thread, but how about that newfangled place called South Sudan?
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Latest news (http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hosni-mubarak-not-resigning-eygptian-president-not-leaving-office-2756362.html)
Speaking at 10:45 pm Egypt time, Hosni Mubarak said He said he "lived for Egypt and would die for Egypt. I will not be separated from this soil until I am buried underneath it."
Prophetic words ...
Either he is a lunatic, or the the army is on his side, and that most probably means that Egypt is heading to a massacre.
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Leaning toward lunatic at this point.
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Either a lunatic or a head-in-the-sand ostrich.
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none of these options are mutually exclusive, he very well could be a lunatic ostrich with his head-in-the-sand and who has the military on his side.
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Ahmadinejad tries to produce enough irony to form an earth devouring black hole (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5igzmKIwBaDFaocB3mTmvldpjySqA?docId=CNG.680158c3fc877f3521627185c89de338.7d1)
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This just in: In a totally unexpected turn, Mubarak resigns.
Will it stick? Who knows?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110211/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt
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Didn't he say he was gonna resign as PResident but then stay on in a supervisory role of the new govt?
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Pretty sure it's for real this time. He's turned the gov over to the military and gotten out of Cairo.
Now Egypt gets to deal with the hard part.
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Wow. After yesterday's announcement, I was sure he was going to hold out for at least another couple weeks, if not for good.
Now what?
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Now what?
It's time to party.
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Wow. After yesterday's announcement, I was sure he was going to hold out for at least another couple weeks, if not for good.
Nixon did the same thing. They even have similar hairstyles.
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Well, this sort of came out of the blue.
I wonder what Egypt's new gov't is going to be like.
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are there any major sites affiliated with this that have an English speaking section, I really would like to tell these people how impressed I am with what they have accomplished.
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I am afraid that all they've accomplished is to get rid of a dictator who was not useful to his masters anymore.
The rapid reaction of USA and EU, along with the behavior of the military, both point to a professionally organized "revolution".
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...no, isreal and the US and europe still liked him, i think
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The rapid reaction of USA and EU, along with the behavior of the military, both point to a professionally organized "revolution".
So how much does that tinfoil weigh?
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Yep. That reaction makes no sense. The West in general would probably have preferred none of this happened on the grounds of "Better the devil you know"
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Unless our leaders loooove pure democracy in middle - east. :lol:
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They really don't. The US is probably going to have a hand in the "democracy" that'll follow in Egypt.
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I don't believe that Egypt is considered a place of great importance, as long as they're strictly limited. They could theoretically cause problems with Isreal and the Suez canal, but honestly they lack the resources to. Much like most of Africa, they simply don't have the knock out power to be a major figure in foreign policy.
If we were talking Saudi Arabia, Iran, or China. . .
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(http://niqnaq.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/oilgas-lebanon-israel-400x452.jpg)
Think about it again.
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So you missed the part where Israel was trying to get the US to stop criticizing Mubarak so he'd remain in power?
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Yep. That reaction makes no sense. The West in general would probably have preferred none of this happened on the grounds of "Better the devil you know"
There's nothing to be gained from openly supporting a doomed government. The only thing America can do now is try to get on good terms with the Egyptian people and hope that they forget about the billions of dollars worth of military aid it sent to Mubarak.
Obama is following his normal modus operandi as he did after the 2009 election in Honduras; support the democratic opposition just to prevent people from blaming the US for a dictatorship. Everyone hates the United States; whichever side it endorses is hurt more than helped.
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So you missed the part where Israel was trying to get the US to stop criticizing Mubarak so he'd remain in power?
Israel usually don't try to get the US to do anything at all. They know what the US leaders will do before them. :lol:
I seriously believe that the Israel reacted that way to convince Egyptians to get rid of Mubarak.
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yeeaahh..
in the age of wikileaks?
if any of that's true, we'll find out shortly.
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the cool part about conspiracies is that you can't prove they didn't happen.
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can't prove i don't have an invisible unicorn carcass under my bed either
'nother point against the West being involved in ousting Mubarak: why cause a huge stir like this? it would have been so much simpler to just wait for the next election and then prevent Mubarak from fixing it for himself. durr.
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O.K. let's wait and see what the next government will be like and what the Israel will do with the gas. :cool:
the cool part about conspiracies is that you can't prove they didn't happen.
So very true :lol:
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other than use it to blow up brown people with the wrong religion?
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Other than allowing Turkey and Egypt to claim and control parts of the leviathan gas field.
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Israel helped overthrow the Egyptian government so that Egypt and Turkey could control some of its oil?
What?
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well, ok, lets assume that Israel exploits the situation, how does that prove they engineered it? why couldn't they just be taking advantage of some regional chaos? how would you expect them to act if this just happened on it's own? and is that gas field really worth the loss of probably their 2nd most important political ally? if you want to say Israel is evil and greedy, fine, but are they stupid?
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well, ok, lets assume that Israel exploits the situation, how does that prove they engineered it? why couldn't they just be taking advantage of some regional chaos? how would you expect them to act if this just happened on it's own? and is that gas field really worth the loss of probably their 2nd most important political ally? if you want to say Israel is evil and greedy, fine, but are they stupid?
First of all, Israel is evil and greedy as everyone else, only a bit more smart and united.
I am not trying to prove anything, i just suppose that due to the outcome of all this, the revolution was orchestrated.
the gas field can stop the Europeans from buying gas from Russia. It's to much complicated for me to prove anything, i'm just trying to figure out how a revolution happens in Mubarak's Egypt and he is stepping down with out a masacre.
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i think you ate some bad mushrooms, dude
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They were quit good mushrooms actually :lol:
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First of all, Israel is evil and greedy as everyone else, only a bit more smart and united.
I am not trying to prove anything, i just suppose that due to the outcome of all this, the revolution was orchestrated.
the gas field can stop the Europeans from buying gas from Russia. It's to much complicated for me to prove anything, i'm just trying to figure out how a revolution happens in Mubarak's Egypt and he is stepping down with out a masacre.
I think you have a nation of millions of PISSED OFF people calling for his blood, I think He didn't realize how ****ed his position was initially, but I think his military explained it to him. I think the military realizes what the situation is, they realize they have no hope of suppressing the ENTIRE nation, and even if they could they would have no nation left afterwards. I've been looking into some of the stories about how all of this happened, and there were a lot of smart _Egyptian_ people leading this in a decentralized manner, basically the Egyptian branch of Anonymous just overthrew the government. and to go back to a previous post of yours, getting rid of a dictator who still has command of his military when all you have is sticks and rocks and no political support is a _VERRY_ ****ING impressive thing to do. Just look into who was leading most of this stuff, there were Google and Oracle executives organizing protests online, why do you think they cut off the Internet?
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WHEN did they cut off the Internet? And for how long?
Anyway, i understand your point of view i find it very optimistic, and i really hope that you're right and not me.
I also hope that there is life after death and i can prove it as much as i can prove that there is not.
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wait, did you not hear about that or are you implying something in the timing? they cut off the Internet shortly after the protests reached critical mass, basically too late to stop the effect. and my "point of view" is simply what the evidence points to, and frankly I find the mental gymnastics you are trying to perform to deny this victory from the people of that country somewhat disturbing. how is this for a conspiracy theory, what if Israel has cultivated a climate of hyper paranoia in the mid east in an effort to make people see any action as an Israeli plot in order to make the mass populations fear change and stick with their old despotic governments and maintain the status quo? what if you are playing into their hands right now?
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a timeline (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/30/egypt-revolution-2011_n_816026.html)
They cut the net off two days after the beginning of the revolution. How idiots can the Egyptian secret services can be?
EDIT: This is getting personal and i really don't want this. Your conspiracy theory is obviously as possible as mine, 60 years from now we might be able to know which one was right.
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...this is the age of the internet. if there is a conspiracy, we will know within a couple years, tops.
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awe c'mon zack, that's just what they want you to think.
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pfft
people are morons, no secret that important could stay secret for long these days
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pfft
people are morons, no secret that important could stay secret for long these days
If something is really a secret, a secret like Egypt, it will never get near the internet.
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If something is really a secret, a secret like Egypt, it will never get near the internet.
You vastly underestimate the dependence of government agencies on the internet. If the tinfoil hattery is true, it has already been transmitted across the internet 50 times at minimum, though over short distances.
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You do realize that some governments have their own internet right? Where all the access points are protected by vault doors and/or armed guards.
Also, the US government has multiple "internet" type networks entirely separate from our internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIPRNet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Worldwide_Intelligence_Communications_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIPR
... and those are just the ones we are allowed to know about.
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You do realize that some governments have their own internet right? Where all the access points are protected by vault doors and/or armed guards.
I know a great deal about US information security measures and how they work since they're peripherally involved in my job. I also know that the State Department is **** at them, which is pretty much how they've done things since before WW1.
There are actually very few isolated networks in peacetime.