Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Rga_Noris on March 11, 2011, 11:16:49 pm
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+1 for chilling out.
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Honestly. He's not NEAAAAR done, and everyone blasts off like their world has just imploded around them :rolleyes:
I'm quite excited to see the direction this takes. (About the texturing)
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Also, we, at the FSU, will do what we see fit, kthnx.
Well, first of all, you can take that attitude and...
Actually no, I'm going to be calm about this. Take a look where the FSU board sits. It's not under hosted projects, it's under community projects. That's an important distinction. This superior "Father knows best" attitude from those of you who have badges simply has to stop. I recognize that you guys are doing the work, and that gives you a lot of creative control, but the media VPs are a special case project that affects every Freespace player. Just saying you'll do whatever you feel is best is a big middle finger to the rest of us.
Now, I know you're still only a kid, but that doesnt mean you can get away with that kind of bull**** attitude. Think before you post.
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No, the ARTIST can do as they see fit. And the FSU (based on public opinion and TEAM aesthetics) can decide whether or not it is acceptable enough to include in the MediaVPs. And if some thing, any thing, is so controversial that TEAM and Public opinion are solidly against it, we will NOT simply apply a "stfu, it's going in anyway" behaviour.
However, with that said, I would like to address, again, the fact of feedback and input delivered. And not just in relation to the Medusa, but to all works done. Opinions and aesthetics differ. Disagreements will be had. Behaviours will happen that people will use against each other months and years on end. But the real opinions that matter are the constructive ones. The well formed ones that leave personal conjecture out of them. And the ones that happen closer to a models completion rather than its infancy.
It requires a fair amount of trust, and it's a trust that needs to go both ways. Especially seeing as how at this point in time, we have more work available and in front of us than we've ever had before. The results of which are going to take a while, but will be well worth it.
And besides, we'll also be doing our best to make sure that these models are available prior to the Release and we'll be doing additional drafting for Beta Testing as pre-Release flight checks, so there will be more than enough time for any truly outstanding issues to be addressed. Because the last thing that -I- personally want to hear about it somebody requesting an older version of something (outside of attempting to address a performance issue, and hopefully we'll be seeing less of that, especially since I happen to Approve of the MediaVP-Lite Edition being worked on)
To keep this on topic and return it to discussion on the Medusa: I love the model, and I trust in Sab0o to collaborate and communicate while the work is in progress to produce something outstanding.
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sic*
:yes:
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Also, we, at the FSU, will do what we see fit, kthnx.
There were FSU members laughing their asses off at you for saying this bro
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In a thread which has been repeatedly told to chill down and wait for Sab0o to add more to it, you feel the need to continue to agitate, which seems rather childish when coming from anyone, especially a global mod.
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If you all want to continue talking about the way FSU does things, take it to PMs or a new thread. Not here. Thank you.
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In a thread which has been repeatedly told to chill down and wait for Sab0o to add more to it, you feel the need to continue to agitate, which seems rather childish when coming from anyone, especially a global mod.
+1 Internet Win for this point has been Awarded to Hades. But this is not a ping-pong game. And if I have to put people into separate rooms, it won't be pretty.
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In a thread which has been repeatedly told to chill down and wait for Sab0o to add more to it, you feel the need to continue to agitate, which seems rather childish when coming from anyone, especially a global mod.
I was one of the first to express confidence that Sab0o would do a fine job, and if you didn't get that I feel like reading comprehension is something a child would have issue with (not that this is a particular surprise to anyone). This isn't agitation, this is telling you to shape up - but if you have trouble discerning between the two I guess you need to take a step back and rethink what you're doing.
I trust the rest of the FSU to teach you how to behave. As Vasudan Admiral was saying last night, you still have to learn how to take criticism, how not to take it personally, and how to use it to improve your models (something Sab0o has done very well here.)
In the meantime you're going to continue disrupting threads and causing ****.
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I think you mean a "step back". And it's not up to the FSU or even the community at large to teach anyone how to behave, that is something that only time can provide.
but it's not helped any when people don't allow for that growth to take place by constantly holding the mistake of the past over someone or continue to display behaviours out of proportion to their position. Especially considering that the two posts have little if anything to do with each other. In one, yes, you outlined (and did a post-mortum on) the fine work done in the texture area. But then in the other, you rather trollishly picked a completely different point (which isn't really yours to address) to put out in a one-liner and unnecessarily (imo) so.
Let's see more regarding developing personal growth happening in a more private arena rather than in a public one, please. I'm more than happy to receive or be copied on any issues for the purpose of mediation or moderation in regards to any avenues.
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This isn't a charity forum. We're not here to help impoverished and depressed teenagers with personality issues grow up into sterling citizens. The problems he causes in public will be addressed in public, and he can deal with it.
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To expand, if he makes a statement about FSU policy which is basically a cover for his own bruised pride, and FSU members then refute it, that information is very much salient to a response.
He'll grow up, but if he wants to contribute in the meantime, he'll be held to the same standards as those he's working with.
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I was one of the first to express confidence that Sab0o would do a fine job, and if you didn't get that I feel like reading comprehension is something a child would have issue with (not that this is a particular surprise to anyone). This isn't agitation, this is telling you to shape up - but if you have trouble discerning between the two I guess you need to take a step back and rethink what you're doing.
I didn't say a thing about your comments on Sab0o's abilities or the work so far produced by him, I, in fact, quoted the post which I responded to which had nothing to do with the actual model or texture, which instead was a snide remark that caused Zacam to feel a split was in order.
On the topic of 'disruptive ****', if you feel you need the need to give this information to me, then perhaps private messages would be a far better place for this instead of here.
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True point. But also irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Personal issues, due to gender, age or living or mental situations are irrelevant to the larger issue at hand. If you keep treating somebody poorly, don't be surprised when they continue to ACT poorly.
Treat them with some measure of respect EVEN in SPITE of what they do, and give enough time to see how that grows. Some people take longer than others to develop. There are worse examples of bad member behaivour around. And many of them are not contributing artists to any project. And say what you will about Hades, he does have a tendency for volunteering or handling time consuming tasks for no other reason than because they are there to be done. (Glow points, thruster scaling, beam resizing) The fact that any one of these are controversial isn't an issue with him or about him, those issues will exist regardless of who is doing them. And while his enthusiasm could be better written in his posts when he tackles how issues are presented to him, it is not helped any when critisisms that are devlivered to him, hold against him WHO he is in addition to what he is doing. We need more of the latter, and less of the former, if we want to see improvements on the core personality.
I for one, regardless of what growth Hades may need to develop, will always respect the merit of his work and his modeling.
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What the **** is this, how many of these threads do we need
Anyway, you've got my opinion on the topic, Hades is presumably going to be dragged into line and stop making ridiculous statements about FSU, and everyone can live happily after.
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I will take whatever actions for conduct (especially in terms of the FSU Forums and its members) that are deemed necessary. But anything that I do can be completely undone by OTHER people (who REALLY should know better) based on them continuing to deliver against somebody in the same way as they always have.
This will now stay locked, as I see that it will not serve a constructive purpose.
(and because I'm really getting to a point where I'm going to start Gibbs-Slapping people, but that's neither here nor there and really only being mentioned for the humor value)
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Well, let it be noted for the record that this reaction was not somehow confined to Axem or me, and that more than one global mod (see BlackWolf) responded the same way. You can ask us to give Hades special treatment, but ultimately what can we do except react to the things he does?
If someone says something profoundly stupid, it's gonna get called out as profoundly stupid, no matter who you are.
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And I have nothing against how Black Wolf responded. I in fact quite found his post to be the best one in terms of addressing the issue in regards to the statement that shouldn't have been made. In fact, this ENTIRE conversation on the subject could have nicely have been ended (and should have been) when his post was made.
I'm not, in any way shape or form, saying that stupidity or mistakes shouldn't be corrected. But. There is a right way of doing it, and an asinine/trollish knee-jerk wrong way of doing it. And I'm getting a little tired of seeing most of it being done via the latter rather than the former.
Now, can we color this closed or continued in private please?
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Well, first of all, you can take that attitude and...
There were FSU members laughing their asses off at you for saying this bro
I honestly have no idea where this is coming from. There is no content difference between his posts in this thread and mine, they're just distributed differently.
I can't accept this input if it's inconsistent like this. You can feel free to take it to PM though.
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I honestly have no idea where this is coming from. There is no content difference between his posts in this thread and mine, they're just distributed differently.
I can't accept this input if it's inconsistent like this. You can feel free to take it to PM though.
Actually no, I'm going to be calm about this.
You missed that as being the immediate following line. Stop selectively processing statements to your benefit by removing them from the scope and context in which they are made in, please. And further, it wasn't necessary for your point to be added to the topic (the point of people laughing their asses off) and it constructively served no purpose. And I would have loved to have responded to this privately, except you are continuing to reply to it in public. And while I am all for being the better person in this aspect (as we are both Global Moderators), but I'm the project manager for FSU as a whole, which dictates that public actions require public reactions in terms of providing a better public closure and understanding to the situation at hand.
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The second sentence of your post is beautifully ironic. Go back to my last post, read it again, try again.
I know you're new to being a global mod but this is a textbook example of how not to handle your job. You are shutting down a user's opinion because you disagree with it. That's unacceptable. Hades made a statement and we, BlackWolf and I and many others, responded to it. We both contributed constructively to the thread in question where constructive discourse was necessary, and responded with outrage when an outrageous statement was made.
I'm unlocking this thread. If discussion is going to continue it should be open to the public.
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Locked. Done. Point served, discussion now in private.
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You're playing to get the last point now. Do you want this to be a discussion about how Hades handles criticism or not?
The thread was opened because he made ridiculous statements about the entire FSU project, which indicated either a major disconnect between him and the rest of the team, or the end of any meaningful open discussion of FSU projects. Users, writing as users (not as global mods or whatever) reacted with their opinions.
Your argument in this thread has been that those reactions were somehow mishandled because they addressed Hades personally. Yet the issue here is clearly either with the FSU as a whole, or with Hades' personal handling of criticism. If the issue is with Hades' personal handling of criticism, then his past and continued disrupt behavior is salient. He has made his issues at home, his academic problems, and his depression public, and cited them repeatedly as causes for disruptive behavior - are we to pretend they somehow don't play a role in the way he handles criticism?
I've stated already in this thread that if Hades is going to be reined in (which all the evidence is he is) then I'm satisfied.
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And again, I said that the issue will be handled. The original comment as it was made that kicked this off has been stricken through and commented on and additional private discussion has taken place appropriately, so feel free to be satisfied. And poor handling of criticism is always a problem when the criticism itself is delivered poorly, or is perceived to have a personal animus attached to it. (Even if it is not MEANT as bearing personal animus or thought by the originator as having been done poorly, the fact of the matter is that perception of these things is always in the eye of the beholder, never the deliverer).
But the bigger issue here isn't who is handling Hades, but how. I will deal with it, especially if and when and where it happens on FSU forums or posts or in relation to what the FSU as a whole is doing. You can handle him as you see fit any where else as you like.
As for there being an issue with the FSU as a whole, there is no issue. If there is, then this needs to be a separate topic on internal for us to work collectively on resolving.
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Is that to be taken as an official statement that we are not to reply to Hades' requests for criticism in FSU forums or posts?
Because if so, a) that doesn't strike me as a good idea, and b) this wasn't Hades' work. This was Sab0o's, who asked for and received useful criticism, and did so in a very mature manner. Hades stepped up to make the statement in question because he's, as he's expressed more than once, tired of criticism and feedback, even if it's not directed at him.
How are we to 'deliver criticism well' to Hades or 'detach a personal animus from it' when the criticism is not aimed at Hades and is not connected to his work, but he still responds in this fashion?
This is clearly a personal issue with his handling of the workflow. It is disruptive and counterproductive, and it contributes to the process of changing constructive, useful feedback into personal discussions. With Hades heading the charge for a number of controversial (not all bad, in my book, but not all good) changes in the FreeSpace Upgrade Project, often acting unilaterally and with explicit disregard for criticism, this is a serious issue for the FSU as a whole.
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Well, usually, when a project member is getting out of hand, the immediate best responses are from A: Other project members or B: notification to the Project Leader for them to handle. If somebody spouted off about BP, I'd PM Darius and yourself for you two to handle it, not try and handle it myself, even if I thought my ability to handle it was in the right.
If anybody requests feedback or criticism of work, give it. Politely and constructively. Regardless of the user or ones personal feelings or issues with the person.
And when egregious mistakes take place, such as Hades comment in regards to what the FSU will or will not do, something like THAT, needs to be appropriately and immediately addressed by bringing it to the attention of the Project Moderator. Which in this case would have been me, but nobody did so. I apologize for the fact that the issue went without reply from me as long as it did, I was otherwise preoccupied with RL issues, but it is not like I couldn't have been reached.
And I'm not shutting down anybody being rightly angry with the statement that is at issue here. But what I am trying to do is to separate it from muddying the waters of the work in relation to the model or the texture topic that it originally started in, and now I'm just wanting the matter closed, so that more constructive work and progress can take place.
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Most of that seems fair. However, this is a public forum, and while splitting out the issue of Hades' misstep is wise, I don't think closing down public reaction is.
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Fire control is putting out fires so that things don't get burned down. The thread is locked because it has been noted that there is a reaction to Hades statement. That statement has been addressed and dealt with. Further public postage of outrage is simply a greater potential for flame and troll bait, which this place already has more than enough of, especially as the issue is now being handled.