Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on May 05, 2011, 02:48:23 pm
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Well, done my bit and voted, though it's been very quiet at the local polling station which doesn't bode well for the 'Yes' voters.
The very people most inclined to vote 'Yes' to this would be younger people, whose generation this is going to have the most impact on, the problem is they already feel betrayed and alienated by the Lib-Dems, and so aren't inclined to support them.
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we also had local elections today on top of the referendum so 3 ballots to post not just the 1 :rolleyes:, tbh i have always preferred a nice and simple one person one vote, simple and fair. if someone didnt get in or the person in the seat didn't change when it should have done then what were the politicians doing when they should have been engaging their supporters?
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I'm not really too fussed to be honest, but I suppose I slightly prefer the AV system for the fact that it does mean that MP's have to do enough to earn at least 50% of the local vote, which could lead to some 'comfy' seats being not so certain any more. Problem is, if it helps make a few more Politiicians aware of the fact that they are in Office, not 'Power' as they keep calling it, then it's good, but if it helps the current incarnation of the Lib-Dems gain more influence, then it's not good.
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From what I've heard back home a lot of people are turned off the idea because they are sick of voting for coalition governments where the party they voted for then turn around and betray every principle they supposedly stood for. AV would result in an increase in that.
Personally I reckon that the Lib Dems are basically spent as a political force. No one will vote for them next election which means they'll cling onto the Tories as long as they can and then vanish as a major party next election.
EDIT : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13297573
Elections expert Professor John Curtice said this would represent the worst Lib Dem council performance since the party was formed in the late 1980s.
Polls suggest AV - under which voters rank candidates in order of preference - will be rejected by a sizeable margin.
So it looks like they whored themselves out for nothing and caught terminal VD in the process. :p
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From what I've heard back home a lot of people are turned off the idea because they are sick of voting for coalition governments where the party they voted for then turn around and betray every principle they supposedly stood for. AV would result in an increase in that.
Personally I reckon that the Lib Dems are basically spent as a political force. No one will vote for them next election which means they'll cling onto the Tories as long as they can and then vanish as a major party next election.
EDIT : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13297573
Elections expert Professor John Curtice said this would represent the worst Lib Dem council performance since the party was formed in the late 1980s.
Polls suggest AV - under which voters rank candidates in order of preference - will be rejected by a sizeable margin.
So it looks like they whored themselves out for nothing and caught terminal VD in the process. :p
Scottish Parliament elections are supporting this, Lib Dems have only just managed to cling to two seats so far, and that's Orkney/Shetland.
SNP is winning by a landslide, but the highlands and west coast still have to declare.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13297573
And they got creamed. I wonder what Nick Clegg is going to do now. Apart from wishing he'd done a deal with Labour instead.
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Yup, no surprise there, I don't think it was so much the policy that was the problem as the perception of the people asking you to vote for it. Conservative were smart to get that Student Grant vote out of them before the referendum, it's pretty much ruined their credibility. Also, with an SNP majority in Scotland, you can expect a vote on Independance soon, so I have a feeling it's no just Clegg who is going to end up with severe historical egg on their faces.
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does this have something to do with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiHuiDD_oTk)?
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Yup, no surprise there, I don't think it was so much the policy that was the problem as the perception of the people asking you to vote for it. Conservative were smart to get that Student Grant vote out of them before the referendum, it's pretty much ruined their credibility. Also, with an SNP majority in Scotland, you can expect a vote on Independance soon, so I have a feeling it's no just Clegg who is going to end up with severe historical egg on their faces.
Well, the Independence Referendum's success depends very much on how the SNP do, and how much each party manages to play upon public opinion in the run up to it.
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Yup, no surprise there, I don't think it was so much the policy that was the problem as the perception of the people asking you to vote for it. Conservative were smart to get that Student Grant vote out of them before the referendum, it's pretty much ruined their credibility. Also, with an SNP majority in Scotland, you can expect a vote on Independance soon, so I have a feeling it's no just Clegg who is going to end up with severe historical egg on their faces.
Well, the Independence Referendum's success depends very much on how the SNP do, and how much each party manages to play upon public opinion in the run up to it.
They also need Westminster to vote through the framework that allows for independence before the referendum can be held
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Yup, no surprise there, I don't think it was so much the policy that was the problem as the perception of the people asking you to vote for it. Conservative were smart to get that Student Grant vote out of them before the referendum, it's pretty much ruined their credibility. Also, with an SNP majority in Scotland, you can expect a vote on Independance soon, so I have a feeling it's no just Clegg who is going to end up with severe historical egg on their faces.
Well, the Independence Referendum's success depends very much on how the SNP do, and how much each party manages to play upon public opinion in the run up to it.
They also need Westminster to vote through the framework that allows for independence before the referendum can be held
Which is completely unfair, because the chances of any of the ENGLISH parties allowing such a framework through Westminister are near to nil.
Basically, if Northern Sudan had been able to vote on the framework for the secession of Southern Sudan, it would never have gained independence.
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Scottish independence?
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Scottish independence?
Scottish National Party, a centre-left political party based in Scotland, won the Scottish Parliamentary Elections to a resounding 9 seat majority in a parliamentary system which had been created to make gaining a majority almost impossible. One of their platform goals is a referendum on Scottish Independence, and they're now in a position where it is achievable.
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Quick history lesson. The formal title of the UK is the United Kingdom Of Great Brittan, which is comprised of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland governed by the English parliament in Westminster, London. After the Romans pulled out the British islands formed many small kingdoms which slowly merged into the countries as listed then the English kings waged several wars to bring the other countries under English rule. ever since the populations of these regions have campaigned with differing tactics, both political and militarily for independence. The most recent of the violent uprisings are the "Troubles" in Ireland which as it stands are currently non violent with the formation of the Republic of Ireland and devolved power to Northern Ireland in the form of the Norther Irish Assembly. Wales and Scotland have been able to negotiate their own assemblies but these are still answerable to Westminster in matters of the treasury and certain aspects of law making. Now some sections of all three countries want full independence, Ireland and Scotland being the most vocal, though Ireland is currently focusing more on establishing a stable political system at the moment. Wales is working more behind the scenes and I dont think there is a huge movement to see it happen. What is interesting about the Scottish elections is that the SNP (Scottish National Party) who's main focus is supposed to be on independence won the majority while making little mention of independence during the campaign but are calling the win a mandate for independence which is proving a little controversial both sides of the border.
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Quick history lesson. The formal title of the UK is the United Kingdom Of Great Brittan, which is comprised of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland governed by the English parliament in Westminster, London. After the Romans pulled out the British islands formed many small kingdoms which slowly merged into the countries as listed then the English kings waged several wars to bring the other countries under English rule. ever since the populations of these regions have campaigned with differing tactics, both political and militarily for independence. The most recent of the violent uprisings are the "Troubles" in Ireland which as it stands are currently non violent with the formation of the Republic of Ireland and devolved power to Northern Ireland in the form of the Norther Irish Assembly. Wales and Scotland have been able to negotiate their own assemblies but these are still answerable to Westminster in matters of the treasury and certain aspects of law making. Now some sections of all three countries want full independence, Ireland and Scotland being the most vocal, though Ireland is currently focusing more on establishing a stable political system at the moment. Wales is working more behind the scenes and I dont think there is a huge movement to see it happen. What is interesting about the Scottish elections is that the SNP (Scottish National Party) who's main focus is supposed to be on independence won the majority while making little mention of independence during the campaign but are calling the win a mandate for independence which is proving a little controversial both sides of the border.
Speaking as a native scot, most people aren't batting an eye at the SNP's mention that they intend for a referendum on independence. It has always been a MAJOR part of their manifesto, it was mentioned gods know how many times in the run up to the election, and it's not a huge issue. Most people I talk to welcome the idea (And this is a broad spectrum, as I work in a petrol station and chat to most of my customers), because it won't be an immediate thing, and with an SNP majority and a few years until the proposed referendum, we will manage to see how the nation fairs at their helm, and WE will decide when the vote comes. If we think that they prove that Scotland has a brighter future without England, we will decide that at the poll.
And, the Union of Crowns is ONLY 300 years old. Scotland/Pictland/Caledonia was an independent nation a hell of a lot longer than that, even resisting the roman empire (or rather, the Roman Empire gave up trying to tame the worthless barbarians after they lost a Legion or two, as even their victory at Mons Graupius couldn't bring them to heel). So, your history lesson is riddled with innacuracy.
However, your comment on how the SNP's election is being percieved down in England (including an innacurate statement about how we're recieving it) seems to be characteristic of what my English friends are being told (Those who live in England, I mean), so clearly the disinformation/rumour mill is hard at work. (One particularly amusing one pointed out that Alex Salmond is being made out as a rabid secessionist who would use military means if possible, which, if true, could not be farther from the truth).
Another comment about their election campaign, Independence was mentioned, but so was the things that they had achieved and the things they were still attempting to. Labour sunk their campaign by making it very negative, and by having a history of voting contrary-wise to the SNP, out of spite (As voiced by one of Labour's own MPs, who came forward on the election morning in disgust, citing an incident he experienced). Lib Dems, well, no brainer there. Tories, they held the majority of their seats, small as that is.
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So basically the Scots are tired of living in the same country as the English. Aside from being closer to secession, what's new about that?
As to Ireland, I though the Irish had been fully independent for a while with the exception of Northern Ireland, which voted to stay part of the U.K.
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If i gave the impression that the romans conquered Scotland or that the process of unifying the Island was a quick process I am sorry, that was not my intention, indeed it took centuries just to unify the kingdoms in England let along starting looking outwards
@SpardaSon21
Yes the Republic of Ireland is independent entity and recognized as such by both the UK and the UN, Although N. Ireland was retained by the UK there was and is still a significant number of people in the area still wanting independence from the UK which meant that as late as the mid 90s there were still violent incidents from the republican elements.
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So basically the Scots are tired of living in the same country as the English. Aside from being closer to secession, what's new about that?
As to Ireland, I though the Irish had been fully independent for a while with the exception of Northern Ireland, which voted to stay part of the U.K.
*Tired of being two countries unified under one crown, which has twisted over the decades as the Westminister Parliament of Great Britain essentially became the Westminister Parliament of England (and resource territories).
A lot of interesting and unofficial seperatist sentiment sprung up in the lead up to the election. Some group (as yet unidentified, but believed to be radical seppies) were planting signs alongside other party ones saying "End London Rule" and "London Lies." Both of which are broadly accurate. (For evidence for the last statement, look into the suppressed McCrone report.)
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Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.
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Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.
Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)
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Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.
Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)
First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it. The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.
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I think it's interesting that you guys are essentially still hashing out centuries-old conflicts, although you have to admit that it was much cooler when William Wallace was waving a claymore and shouting "FREEDOM!" Boring old voting referendums don't have that same ring. :p
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Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.
Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)
First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it. The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.
It's been referred to as such on this side of the border, and Nick Clegg even touted it as such in the run up to the AV vote.
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Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.
Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)
First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it. The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.
It's been referred to as such on this side of the border, and Nick Clegg even touted it as such in the run up to the AV vote.
I missed that one, but ok. AV is a joke, tbh the only reason i can see for putting it in is because main stream politicians this side of the border are getting lazy and cant be bothered to try and engage the public beyond the 2-3 weeks in the run up to an election
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Well, I hope you guys over in Great Britain resolve this in a manner that doesn't involve angry Scotsmen and Welshmen invading England to burn and pillage.
Whichever way it goes, we're in for some interesting times this Parliamentary session. I think the chances of the referendum passing are greatly increased by the current Tory government and what is sensationally being referred to as 'a return to Thatcherism' (Thatcherism was terrible for Scotland. The only good Thatcher did was her stance on the Falklands conflict, although arguably she helped create that problem)
First time I have heard it being called a return to Thatcherism, but despite the "involvement" of lib-dem government policy is very much classic conservatism, I just hope this years election gives Lib-Dem the kick they need that they need to say no a few more times, it's all fine and dandy having a good working relationship with the Conservatives but it all seems to be one way and the Libs are bleeding support because of it and the country will start suffering because of it. The conservatives are renown for tightening spending when they can and not dishing money out when they ought to.
It's been referred to as such on this side of the border, and Nick Clegg even touted it as such in the run up to the AV vote.
I missed that one, but ok. AV is a joke, tbh the only reason i can see for putting it in is because main stream politicians this side of the border are getting lazy and cant be bothered to try and engage the public beyond the 2-3 weeks in the run up to an election
Aye, AV was a joke, though only good thing about it was that it represented a willingness to look at our political system. It was just the wrong way to look at it. That said, SP elections use a combination of AV and first past the post, which was supposed to prevent a majority government forming, and the SNP broke that one. (It's so bad that Political commentators and lecturers are talking about rewriting their notes of the past 6 years - they've been pointing to it as an unbreakable example)
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I think it's interesting that you guys are essentially still hashing out centuries-old conflicts, although you have to admit that it was much cooler when William Wallace was waving a claymore and shouting "FREEDOM!" Boring old voting referendums don't have that same ring. :p
This. Ravenholme, if Scotland does end up having a referendum to secede, be sure to show up at the polls in woad and a kilt.
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I think the biggest mistake the Scottish make is assuming that the British government ignore Scotland.
They ignore everything north of Watford. :p (Or west of Reading for that matter).
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I think the biggest mistake the Scottish make is assuming that the British government ignore Scotland.
They ignore everything north of Watford. :p (Or west of Reading for that matter).
Haha, nicely said. :lol:
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I think it's interesting that you guys are essentially still hashing out centuries-old conflicts, although you have to admit that it was much cooler when William Wallace was waving a claymore and shouting "FREEDOM!" Boring old voting referendums don't have that same ring. :p
This. Ravenholme, if Scotland does end up having a referendum to secede, be sure to show up at the polls in woad and a kilt.
It's sort of awesome that the only reason I know what "woad" is is Age of Empires 2. :D
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Where it's lost.
Woad was well out of fashion by the time of William Wallace. You people need to stop watching Braveheart. :p
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Problem is, having spent a lot of my time in Glasgow, that the SNP actually face an uphill job, the majority of the Scottish don't actually want independance from the UK, they just want Parliament to stop thinking that, as Kara stated, the United Kingdom ended at Watford. Most Scottish people I've spoken to don't have a problem with saying they are British, regardless of what the media may have us think, but they also are Scottish and that's fine, I'm British and was born in England, it's the same thing.
That said, since Glasgow is also the only place in the world I've ever had racism directed at me, the sad fact is that a lot of people are still convinced they are re-living Braveheart, my family came from the Midlands, we got rolled over by the English King on the way up and the Scottish King on the way down, so we don't really owe either side any favours if we chose to hold grudges for hundreds of years. The problem isn't really one of sovereign rule, hasn't been for hundresd of years, the problem is how to decentralise the power system that has formed in London.
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I always find Scottish people who complain about the English king to be severely misguided. Robert II was the grandson of Robert the Bruce and the founder of the House of Stuart.
When James I of England came to power (causing the union of the crowns cause he was James VI of Scotland) it was the end of the Tudors and the start of the Stuart kings of England. That meant that a descendant of Robert the Bruce was now king of England. IIRC the current royal family are still to this day descended from this line. So quite frankly I can't see what they're griping about. They ****ing won! If anyone should be complaining about having someone else's royal family it's the English! :p
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It's a question of perspective and how history has been written, history implies that England won the war, even though it was effectively a no-score draw.
I think most Scottish people are aware that there would be a logistical nightmare involved with leaving the UK anyway, they'd have to re-apply to the EU as a seperate country, and whilst that was taking place, there'd be the problem of Scottish people living and working in the UK now being officially 'workers from outside the EU'. We don't really have to be 'best pals', and I don't think we ever will be, but the fact of the matter is that it is a mutually beneficial arrangement, we really just need to de-centralise Government, that is a referendum I'd be passionate about.
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Interesting thread! I read it and it all sounds a bit familiar... in Canada some of you may know that Quebec has had referendums on leaving the federation and becoming their own nation. It's stirred up a lot of talk in most corners of the country. If Quebec separates then what does Canada do from there and does it stay as a country the way it was.
I think the UK has considerably more history to draw on for better or worse.
The separatist party in Quebec has been virtually eliminated from federal politics in the last election (in the 90s the separatist party was popular enough to form the official opposition if you can believe that :)) so a real change has happened for Canada. These things sometimes come and go. It'll be interesting to see how similar and different this ends up being for the UK.
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Interesting thread! I read it and it all sounds a bit familiar... in Canada some of you may know that Quebec has had referendums on leaving the federation and becoming their own nation. It's stirred up a lot of talk in most corners of the country. If Quebec separates then what does Canada do from there and does it stay as a country the way it was.
A bit? Honestly, I could swear that they were discussing Federal politics in Canada though the party names were throwing me :).
I think the UK has considerably more history to draw on for better or worse.
Well, definitely they have more history to draw on, though like you I don't know if that is actually better or worse.
The separatist party in Quebec has been virtually eliminated from federal politics in the last election (in the 90s the separatist party was popular enough to form the official opposition if you can believe that :)) so a real change has happened for Canada. These things sometimes come and go. It'll be interesting to see how similar and different this ends up being for the UK.
It really depends on whether the NDP can show Quebec that they are more than just a protest party. Unfortunately it also may mean that Ottawa will go back to ignoring the west again because Ontario and Quebec by themselves are enough seats for a majority :nervous:.
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I think the UK has considerably more history to draw on for better or worse.
Well, definitely they have more history to draw on, though like you I don't know if that is actually better or worse.
It is defiantly for the worse, it has provided masses of ammo for political mud slinging and some very entrenched mindsets
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But as I pointed out the use of history is rather stupid. :D
It's a question of perspective and how history has been written, history implies that England won the war, even though it was effectively a no-score draw.
They kinda had to write it that way or the English would have risen up against their oppressive foreign king! :p
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. . . America kinda has the South. . . but that's kinda a dead horse (that won't rise again)
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But as I pointed out the use of history is rather stupid. :D
It's a question of perspective and how history has been written, history implies that England won the war, even though it was effectively a no-score draw.
They kinda had to write it that way or the English would have risen up against their oppressive foreign king! :p
Actually, maybe it's a country thing (North East Scotland represent), but we're well aware our current Monarchy is descended from a Scottish king. But being descended from a country doesn't mean you or your approved representatives care about the old home country, and the general feeling up here is that the Monarchy doesn't care about us beyond providing some nice estates (Balmoral, I'm looking at you) and the Parliament not at all.
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You can't exactly blame the English for the fact that the second you managed to put a Scot on the throne they ceased to give a **** about you though. :p
Pretty much most of the people who mention the royals as if it's even the slightest bit relevant seem to forget that.
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I don't know why these arguments always centre around the Monarchy anyway, they have no real power, and even if we dissolved the Monarchy, does anybody actually believe that any of that money would make it's way back to the public? People will happily say that the Monarchy is a drain on money, but suggest that people who can't afford to raise more children stop having them and all hell breaks loose, suggest we use Nuclear power more because it's greener and cheaper and you get the same reaction.
There are so many drains on the UK economy, and, especially with the tourist revenues they bring in, the Royal Family are a very small drain indeed.
Thing is, make it about a grudge from several hundred years ago, and it's voting for all the wrong reasons.
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I don't know why these arguments always centre around the Monarchy anyway, they have no real power, and even if we dissolved the Monarchy, does anybody actually believe that any of that money would make it's way back to the public? People will happily say that the Monarchy is a drain on money, but suggest that people who can't afford to raise more children stop having them and all hell breaks loose, suggest we use Nuclear power more because it's greener and cheaper and you get the same reaction.
There are so many drains on the UK economy, and, especially with the tourist revenues they bring in, the Royal Family are a very small drain indeed.
Thing is, make it about a grudge from several hundred years ago, and it's voting for all the wrong reasons.
It has very little to do with the Monarchy, I was pointing out to those who were saying that it had something to do with the Monarchy being English that most people are aware that the Monarchy is Scottish, we just don't really care :p
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Heh :) To be honest, I think the Royal family is more Germanic than anything else now anyway :)
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that that such a referendum should be done for the present, not the past, it's easy to think of the English as 'oppressors', I got called an Imperialistic Bastard in Glasgow because I was from London, as though I, personally, fought my way up to the border, built a wall and then proceeded to raid and pillage Scotland for years afterwards. I didn't, and the chances are high that I'm not even related to someone who did, since my family migrated from France to the Midlands, just being a 'Londoner' doesn't mean that I am associated with or even condone the actions of the English during that time.
Scotland deserves control over it's own finances and parliament, I'll fully agree with that and fortunately the SNP has the leverage with England to get a good percentage of it now, but personally I think dissolving the union entirely will do far more harm to both countries than good.