Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Marcov on May 20, 2011, 08:14:34 am
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It's been a while since I played Derelict, but I can see why Homesick ranks alongside it as one of the best user-made campaigns ever made in the Freespace Fanverse.
You just never run out of fun fuel in Homesick. I just don't know how to describe it, but blowing fighters and bombers to hell literally never got so fun. And the chatter is possibly the best ever.
Also Battuta, I think your persuading them to see the new campaigns stems from your enthusiasm in taking a role in the BP team, which is understandable.
Anyway, I'm not actually a veteran here, but I'm somewhat sure they played the newer campaigns too, they just love the nostalgia factor and the "classic" thing behind Derelict. For me, user-made campaigns that uses RETAIL instead of any add-on has its own flavor, while things like Blue Planet have some other type of charm.
I haven't played much of BP:WiH yet (finished BP:AoA though), but sad to say, it's kinda lag in the first mission. I hope the lag somehow stops in the succeeding ones, otherwise it's going to be a bit of a problem.
Okay, *expects wave of flames*, but I somehow find it a minor setback to play as a female.
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Should we spoil Marcov about Samus Aran's true identity? :p
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By all means. Maybe introduce him to Ripley as well.
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By all means. Maybe introduce him to Ripley as well.
Ye mean Ridley?
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By all means. Maybe introduce him to Ripley as well.
Ye mean Ridley?
No...
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I'm guessing The_E is referring to Ellen Ripley of the Alien movies.
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By all means. Maybe introduce him to Ripley as well.
Ye mean Ridley?
Nope, Ripley. (http://theblevinsblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/09-ellen-ripley.jpg)
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I somehow find it a minor setback to play as a female.
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I can appreciate that you have an opinion on the matter. And it was decent of you to encode in a way so as not to call unnecessary attention to it...but what the hell?
I don't know what to do here. On the one hand, I want to eviscerate you. Call down lightning bolts of doom, sort of thing. But that would be inappropriate. Not anywhere near as inappropriate as I find what you said to be, but still inappropriate.
Do me all of us a favor, stay out of FSU.
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I... think he just meant he can't connect/relate to a character of a different gender than he is, making the comment a lot less chauvinistic than it initially seems.
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One more thing: the fact that BP is successful doesn't mean that pretty much everyone here wants a talking player character and, more in general, a pure character-based environment. I see people making major assumptions on "changes to the community's tastes" without actual evidence.
I've said over and over again that people don't want this, that there should always be a variety of narrative approaches, not a single one. In fact I've told you several times over the years that the great strength of the community is diversity and heterogeneity, rather than everyone doing something one way. (This is the same position Volition's always taken, incidentally). I don't know what you're talking about.
No. I believe some more modesty would be appropriate here - new campaigns are awesome because the SCP and FSU made a lot of things possible, not because new campaign designers are smarter and/or more skilled than the older ones. I'd like to clarify this because many community members think the halo of sacred awesomeness recent campaigns have is imputable only to said campaigns' respective FREDders.
And again, here, I don't think I've seen anyone claim this. I don't know what you're trying to say or who you're trying to argue against.
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I somehow find it a minor setback to play as a female.
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I can appreciate that you have an opinion on the matter. And it was decent of you to encode in a way so as not to call unnecessary attention to it...but what the hell?
I don't know what to do here. On the one hand, I want to eviscerate you. Call down lightning bolts of doom, sort of thing. But that would be inappropriate. Not anywhere near as inappropriate as I find what you said to be, but still inappropriate.
Do me all of us a favor, stay out of FSU.
Honestly, I can't understand why the BP:WiH team had to make the player character a female. Why did you do this? What inspired you to do so?
Why do you want to exterminate me from the Universe? Are you offended?
What's all this defensiveness for Blue Planet?
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I somehow find it a minor setback to play as a female.
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I can appreciate that you have an opinion on the matter. And it was decent of you to encode in a way so as not to call unnecessary attention to it...but what the hell?
I don't know what to do here. On the one hand, I want to eviscerate you. Call down lightning bolts of doom, sort of thing. But that would be inappropriate. Not anywhere near as inappropriate as I find what you said to be, but still inappropriate.
Do me all of us a favor, stay out of FSU.
Honestly, I can't understand why the BP:WiH team had to make the player character a female. Why did you do this? What inspired you to do so?
Why do you want to exterminate me from the Universe? Are you offended?
What's all this defensiveness for Blue Planet?
Banned from IRC for sexual harassment, banned from GenDisc for racism, still swingin' for the fences
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Do not answer for someone else.
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Calm down, folks.
If anyone's offended by his question, MattTheGeek had a decent enough response here;
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=76176.msg1512425#msg1512425
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I'm sorry, didn't you just ask a question about the sex and gender of the main character in Blue Planet
You're really working this one pretty hard
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No I didn't. I merely said that it was a minor setback for me to play as a female, nothing else.
also im tired off youre cyber buliyng
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Marcov, I can see how some people may find what you asked offensive, for the things that it could possibly imply.
General Battuta, you're not answering his question and it looks, to me, like you're more interested in Marcov's past infractions than what he's saying now.
Why don't you guys read some other threads for a bit? :)
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Marcov, I can see how some people may find what you asked offensive, for the things that it could possibly imply.
No offense as I'm just curious as to why they designed a female protagonist for BP:WiH. Usually Alpha 1 will be a male, or even more usually, asexual (gender not dictated, just called "Alpha 1").
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Honestly, I can't understand why the BP:WiH team had to make the player character a female. Why did you do this? What inspired you to do so?
I don't know this looks a lot like a question to me
also im tired off youre cyber buliyng
People responding to your statements doesn't qualify as bullying. This is a forum for discussion, discussion will occur.
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People responding to your statements doesn't qualify as bullying. This is a forum for discussion, discussion will occur.
I think Unknown Target has a reason for trying to let this stop, but frankly this was directed towards you (singular).
You will try to initiate an excuse saying "you've been banned frequently so people generally don't like you" when it doesn't really have to do with the topic at hand.
I think this is some kind of habit of yours, you may be doing it to other forum members. I don't know why, but you seem to be having fun at labeling people "trolls", which is actually trolling in itself.
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Unknown Target is kind of like the family dog, in that you give him a pat on the head and then go back to what you were doing.
In any case, there was a very purposeful reason for the gender selection, but frankly supplying it should be unnecessary. The fact that your privilege has been upset is not cause for concern.
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Marcov, getting back to the original statement, what difference does it make to you that your character is a female? Do you think that it would have an effect on her performance in combat?
Oh and
"also im tired off youre cyber buliyng"
http://dictionary.reference.com/ - a useful site
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Well, I can't answer for Marcov, but for me, it kills immersion.
I know I'm not a girl, so playing as one (especially one that has such a different...philosophy, and speaks about it), makes it hard for me to be attached to the character. It feels like I'm a camera that's attached to the characters shoulder, but also simultaneously hijacks her fighter...it's queer and thus I didn't find the ending sad at all. It was more like "lol u n00bs got pwned gg no re."...but I'm getting off topic.
To put it short, it makes it more difficult to directly relate to the character - this is why many games have silent protagonists (regardless of gender), or even unspecified protagonists.
Then again, when I play RPGs I make my character female, cause if I'm gonna be staring at someones ass for hours, it's gotta be some chick's.
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If you can't imagine yourself as anything but a man you're obviously going to have problems with it.
Expecting that the world will always cater to your specific sex and race, providing it by default so that you can be comfortable, is what we call 'privilege.' And you get it, most of the time. Pretty weird to be denied it, huh?
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Droid803 makes a good point, especially in regards to the player character (of any gender) speaking in games. When I write games and game storylines, I find it a fun challenge to make the player never say a word; I think that the instant the player character speaks is the instant that they are not the player (me) anymore.
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Unknown Target is kind of like the family dog, in that you give him a pat on the head and then go back to what you were doing.
I will not indulge myself into this childish argument that you started, so I'll stop.
Marcov, getting back to the original statement, what difference does it make to you that your character is a female? Do you think that it would have an effect on her performance in combat?
I usually savor Alpha 1 being sort of the "Badass" "invincible" guy, not the Action girl.
Also yeah, partially like what Droid803 said: kinda hard to relate to the character.
Then again, when I play RPGs I make my character female, cause if I'm gonna be staring at someones ass for hours, it's gotta be some chick's.
This made me go lawlz :lol:.
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Threads split.
Just because we're supposedly welcoming back the old people doesn't mean you have to turn the forum in the thread-split, thread-locked, argumentative place this used to be just to make them feel at home. :p
To put it short, it makes it more difficult to directly relate to the character - this is why many games have silent protagonists (regardless of gender), or even unspecified protagonists.
While I understand this, and completely agree with it, I don't understand why imagining yourself as a 24th century starfighter pilot would be easy but being a woman would be hard. :p
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If you can't imagine yourself as anything but a man you're obviously going to have problems with it.
Expecting that the world will always cater to your specific sex and race, providing it by default so that you can be comfortable, is what we call 'privilege.' And you get it, most of the time. Pretty weird to be denied it, huh?
Indeed. It's weird. Especially because you're trying to tell me a story.
If you're writing a book, or a movie, the audience has the option to be an observer, an unrelated third party.
However, in the medium of the game, the audience is confined to the shell of a character. Generally, you want your audience to identify with the said character in order to provide immersion. Creating a jarring difference between what you really are, and what you're told you are alienates your audience to a certain degree, because you're forcing them to play a role that they aren't, and thus they become less willing to do what you want them to do, detracting from the effectiveness of your narrative. Less of it gets through.
I can imagine myself as something that I am not. It doesn't mean that I won't be conscious of the fact that I'm imagining myself as someone else. I can feel sympathy without feeling empathy, but one is stronger than the other.
Let's take a metaphor. I can take a walk in someone else's shoes. Doesn't mean that I'll think that they're mine, doesn't mean that it'll be comfortable, doesn't mean that I'll understand how it is for them to walk in their own shoes from it, though. Of course I can guess at it, but forcing me to wear their shoes doesn't help me do that, it just gives me sore feet from wearing shoes that don't fit. Now, ask me to take the same walk in my own shoes and maybe I won't be distracted in looking at everything else you want me to see while taking the walk.
So, should you tell someone to wear someone else's shoes? In my opinion, not without good reason. Maybe you want them to feel uncomfortable about it. Maybe you want to make them feel detached and alienated.
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I'm not implying that you have to like it.
Like I said in a post that got split, there are advantages and disadvantages to every school of game narrative. One of the disadvantages of having a defined protagonist is the risk of alienating the player. One of the disadvantages of having an undefined protagonist is the risk of the narrative feeling contrived and moronic (this is a problem a lot of games with silent protagonists have).
There's no clear winner, just a set of strengths and weaknesses. The only true failure would be homogeneity.
Of course given that you've greatly enjoyed campaigns in which you play as a woman (several women, in fact) I think you're making more of a fuss than is appropriate.
reating a jarring difference between what you really are, and what you're told you are alienates your audience to a certain degree, because you're forcing them to play a role that they aren't, and thus they become less willing to do what you want them to do, detracting from the effectiveness of your narrative. Less of it gets through.
May I just point out the assumption here that the story is being told for straight men? You've just defined the audience as exactly that.
Are you comfortable playing women who are sex objects for the male gaze, but not otherwise? Interesting.
Your argument that the narrative is cheapened for all straight men is also clearly incorrect. Don't confuse personal experience with some kind of rule.
So, should you tell someone to wear someone else's shoes? In my opinion, not without good reason. Maybe you want them to feel uncomfortable about it. Maybe you want to make them feel detached and alienated.
You do realize that by nature any protagonist with defined characteristics is not going to fit everyone's shoes?
You can speak about your own personal experience all you like, and you're welcome to it, but the simple fact is that the discomfort you seem to have experienced is clearly in the minority. And the fact that you don't experience that discomfort when playing some women tells me it's not happening for the reasons you claim either.
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This wants me to go over Statistics again. The male-to-female ratio is like somewhere around 50:1. :lol:
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Yeah I'm making more of a fuss than necessary, but everyone else did, so hey. :P It's not that I felt all too discomforted either, kinda blowing it out of proportion a bit.
I'm pretty much just saying that I can see where Marcov is coming from.
In fact, this whole thing blew out of proportion...totally out of proportion. I feel silly to even have participated now >.>
This wants me to go over Statistics again. The male-to-female ratio is like somewhere around 50:1. :lol:
closer to 52:1, actually.
also depends how many fakes, and how undefined's are counted.
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Marcov: Sgt Leigh Ann Hester, Sgt Monica Brown, and Specialist Shoshana Johnson called.
They resent the implication that being a woman in combat is a setback.
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I fail to see why it's so difficult to play as a female character. It's just another role you need to adjust to, like space marine or fighter pilot or professional race car driver or homicidal maniac, depending on what game you're playing. It shouldn't take too much mental capacity, girls aren't that mysterious. If you find it difficult, you may be over-thinking it a bit, or a lot.
So you don't know exactly what it feels like to be female? Well, you don't know what it feels like to be any of those other things (probably), you just take what you can and fill in the rest based on yourself.
I hope that made sense.
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The question boiled down to "Why did WiH elect a difference in approach in tackling the aspect of the player character"
The answer is "It was choice made out of the many available narrative options for delivering the over all concept of the story we wanted to tell"
That this choice is disagreeable, dismissive, applauded or anything else is a matter of personal choice and preference, as I see it. There are hopefully (for anybody that views the change in a more "negative" light (thought negative may be too strong a word choice)) still additional elements beyond that choice that can be appreciated from the experience, the story, the assets, what have you.
Any chance of simply letting it rest at that and calling it a day, folks?
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Like Zacam says it was a decision made for a very specific and important story reason. It was absolutely critical to the metanarrative.
But frankly that reason should not have to be presented as some kind of justification. There should not be a need to justify non-male characters.
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it's queer and thus I didn't find the ending sad at all. It was more like "lol u n00bs got pwned gg no re."...but I'm getting off topic
:lol:
Pretty much my reaction as well but for different reasons, because DE was a horrible experience for me because I was one of the people that had apparantly ran in a checkpoint bug that made the mission *impossible* to beat (I had to cheat and I still had to redo it 3 times with cheats on :/ ) also I was rooting for the GTVA at the time.
Now as a mod maker myself I'm finding this 'discussion' quite interesting to read. It's something I gave quite a bit of thought at the start of WoD (And there has been a few complaints that people found it hard to even identify who the player character even was, at the start of the campaign).
Now I certainly think that having an Alpha 1 is more immersive for freespace. But this only truely works in the retail format of having nameless expendable wingmates who have no conversations involving you. The moment you start adding named reoccuring wingmates who you can order around, it just becomes kinda silly to be this mute genderless presence.
Wing commander has also always had a player character and that worked just fine!
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Honestly, I can't understand why the BP:WiH team had to make the player character a female. Why did you do this? What inspired you to do so?
Because they can, and they did, and the campaign was still damn awesome.
Why do you want to exterminate me from the Universe? Are you offended?
If it's as simple as that the Inferno Upgrade should have a female player character too. :P
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The thing that alienate me a lot more than player character gender is how the character reacts to things. [/captain obvious]
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Wait, you mean there are actually characters in Blue Planet? I was too busy blowing **** up to notice :lol:
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Interesting discussion. I also agree that I felt a little out of the immersiveness of the game.
But I don't think it had to do much with the gender of the player, more to do with her character which was entirely out of sync with my own.
Having said that, I do understand that playing a different gender than your own does not contribute to "immersiveness".
We must understand that BP isn't being developed by a game company which has the time and the resources to pull off a multi-gender option, and that the choice of a female protagonist is a welcome change.
I hoped that more game companies would do multi-gender protagonists and treat them equally. Not only make believable characters, etc., but also duplicate the marketing of it and make female covers and male covers. Female and male posters, etc (I'm looking at you, Bioware).
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Considering the utterly abusive way in which several members of this thread have been treating each other, the zero tolerance for flaming policy is now well and truly dead.
EDIT: This could have been a fascinating discussion about WiH Part 1's narrative choices and why they were made. Oddly enough, only Zacam seemed to even grasp that question was asked.
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Considering the utterly abusive way in which several members of this thread have been treating each other, the zero tolerance for flaming policy is now well and truly dead.
Given that those users were given SMF warnings for their behaviour, you're wrong.
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Given that those users were given SMF warnings for their behaviour, you're wrong.
We need some form of publicity, then, because absent a marking of it, it looks like absolutely nothing has been done in this thread or in regards to anything.
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Yes, the point of these punishments is surely to deter others, leaving the abuse up and not publicising that the warnings have been made does nothing towards that. In my view the most negative characteristic about this forum is the tendency of some members to jump on a comment they don't agree with and try to prove that the commenter is wrong, rather than simply ignoring it. It creates bad blood between members and adds a degree of seriousness which discourages people from expressing opinions unless they have a mountain of evidence to back it up.
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I wasn't aware at the time that SMF warnings weren't public. I see a big green sign under their name after all. :D
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put a big
User was warned for this post.
(edit it in), for all to laugh at.
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I wasn't aware at the time that SMF warnings weren't public. I see a big green sign under their name after all. :D
The only green I see on a thread page is if someone's online or if I'm seeing Zacam's Mantis link on his sig. :P
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Rational Skepticism had a good way of doing so, with a nice graphic exclamation point from a mod, the offensive quote and a public remark by the moderator. It looked nice and was useful for all of us to see that bad manners didn't go unremarked ;).
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I wasn't aware at the time that SMF warnings weren't public. I see a big green sign under their name after all. :D
its a mod-only thing. project heads can see it as well, but not the general public.
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It can be made visible to everyone if admins so choose to do. It's not visible to project heads unless they are also moderators, which they usually are.
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That sounds strangely familiar ... hasn't this been discussed several times before ?
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Not to this extent... I didn't even know there were warnings. :nervous:
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Not to this extent... I didn't even know there were warnings. :nervous:
This
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Not to this extent... I didn't even know there were warnings. :nervous:
This
What he said.
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And I say: Locked.