[General Battuta]

Unknown Target is kind of like the family dog, in that you give him a pat on the head and then go back to what you were doing.

In any case, there was a very purposeful reason for the gender selection, but frankly supplying it should be unnecessary. The fact that your privilege has been upset is not cause for concern.

[Shivan Hunter]

Marcov, getting back to the original statement, what difference does it make to you that your character is a female? Do you think that it would have an effect on her performance in combat?

Oh and

"also im tired off youre cyber buliyng"

http://dictionary.reference.com/ - a useful site

[Droid803]

Well, I can't answer for Marcov, but for me, it kills immersion.

I know I'm not a girl, so playing as one (especially one that has such a different...philosophy, and speaks about it), makes it hard for me to be attached to the character. It feels like I'm a camera that's attached to the characters shoulder, but also simultaneously hijacks her fighter...it's queer and thus I didn't find the ending sad at all. It was more like "lol u n00bs got pwned gg no re."...but I'm getting off topic.

To put it short, it makes it more difficult to directly relate to the character - this is why many games have silent protagonists (regardless of gender), or even unspecified protagonists.

Then again, when I play RPGs I make my character female, cause if I'm gonna be staring at someones ass for hours, it's gotta be some chick's.

[General Battuta]

If you can't imagine yourself as anything but a man you're obviously going to have problems with it.

Expecting that the world will always cater to your specific sex and race, providing it by default so that you can be comfortable, is what we call 'privilege.' And you get it, most of the time. Pretty weird to be denied it, huh?

[Unknown Target]

Droid803 makes a good point, especially in regards to the player character (of any gender) speaking in games. When I write games and game storylines, I find it a fun challenge to make the player never say a word; I think that the instant the player character speaks is the instant that they are not the player (me) anymore.

[Marcov]

Unknown Target is kind of like the family dog, in that you give him a pat on the head and then go back to what you were doing.

I will not indulge myself into this childish argument that you started, so I'll stop.

Marcov, getting back to the original statement, what difference does it make to you that your character is a female? Do you think that it would have an effect on her performance in combat?

I usually savor Alpha 1 being sort of the "Badass" "invincible" guy, not the Action girl.

Also yeah, partially like what Droid803 said: kinda hard to relate to the character.

Then again, when I play RPGs I make my character female, cause if I'm gonna be staring at someones ass for hours, it's gotta be some chick's.

This made me go lawlz .

[karajorma]

Threads split.

Just because we're supposedly welcoming back the old people doesn't mean you have to turn the forum in the thread-split, thread-locked, argumentative place this used to be just to make them feel at home.

To put it short, it makes it more difficult to directly relate to the character - this is why many games have silent protagonists (regardless of gender), or even unspecified protagonists.

While I understand this, and completely agree with it, I don't understand why imagining yourself as a 24th century starfighter pilot would be easy but being a woman would be hard.

[Droid803]

If you can't imagine yourself as anything but a man you're obviously going to have problems with it.

Expecting that the world will always cater to your specific sex and race, providing it by default so that you can be comfortable, is what we call 'privilege.' And you get it, most of the time. Pretty weird to be denied it, huh?

Indeed. It's weird. Especially because you're trying to tell me a story.

If you're writing a book, or a movie, the audience has the option to be an observer, an unrelated third party.

However, in the medium of the game, the audience is confined to the shell of a character. Generally, you want your audience to identify with the said character in order to provide immersion. Creating a jarring difference between what you really are, and what you're told you are alienates your audience to a certain degree, because you're forcing them to play a role that they aren't, and thus they become less willing to do what you want them to do, detracting from the effectiveness of your narrative. Less of it gets through.

I can imagine myself as something that I am not. It doesn't mean that I won't be conscious of the fact that I'm imagining myself as someone else. I can feel sympathy without feeling empathy, but one is stronger than the other.

Let's take a metaphor. I can take a walk in someone else's shoes. Doesn't mean that I'll think that they're mine, doesn't mean that it'll be comfortable, doesn't mean that I'll understand how it is for them to walk in their own shoes from it, though. Of course I can guess at it, but forcing me to wear their shoes doesn't help me do that, it just gives me sore feet from wearing shoes that don't fit. Now, ask me to take the same walk in my own shoes and maybe I won't be distracted in looking at everything else you want me to see while taking the walk.

So, should you tell someone to wear someone else's shoes? In my opinion, not without good reason. Maybe you want them to feel uncomfortable about it. Maybe you want to make them feel detached and alienated.

[General Battuta]

I'm not implying that you have to like it.

Like I said in a post that got split, there are advantages and disadvantages to every school of game narrative. One of the disadvantages of having a defined protagonist is the risk of alienating the player. One of the disadvantages of having an undefined protagonist is the risk of the narrative feeling contrived and moronic (this is a problem a lot of games with silent protagonists have).

There's no clear winner, just a set of strengths and weaknesses. The only true failure would be homogeneity.

Of course given that you've greatly enjoyed campaigns in which you play as a woman (several women, in fact) I think you're making more of a fuss than is appropriate.

reating a jarring difference between what you really are, and what you're told you are alienates your audience to a certain degree, because you're forcing them to play a role that they aren't, and thus they become less willing to do what you want them to do, detracting from the effectiveness of your narrative. Less of it gets through.

May I just point out the assumption here that the story is being told for straight men? You've just defined the audience as exactly that.

Are you comfortable playing women who are sex objects for the male gaze, but not otherwise? Interesting.

Your argument that the narrative is cheapened for all straight men is also clearly incorrect. Don't confuse personal experience with some kind of rule.

So, should you tell someone to wear someone else's shoes? In my opinion, not without good reason. Maybe you want them to feel uncomfortable about it. Maybe you want to make them feel detached and alienated.

You do realize that by nature any protagonist with defined characteristics is not going to fit everyone's shoes?

You can speak about your own personal experience all you like, and you're welcome to it, but the simple fact is that the discomfort you seem to have experienced is clearly in the minority. And the fact that you don't experience that discomfort when playing some women tells me it's not happening for the reasons you claim either.

[Marcov]

This wants me to go over Statistics again. The male-to-female ratio is like somewhere around 50:1.

[Droid803]

Yeah I'm making more of a fuss than necessary, but everyone else did, so hey. It's not that I felt all too discomforted either, kinda blowing it out of proportion a bit.

I'm pretty much just saying that I can see where Marcov is coming from.

In fact, this whole thing blew out of proportion...totally out of proportion. I feel silly to even have participated now >.>

This wants me to go over Statistics again. The male-to-female ratio is like somewhere around 50:1.

closer to 52:1, actually.
also depends how many fakes, and how undefined's are counted.

[Nuclear1]

Marcov:  Sgt Leigh Ann Hester, Sgt Monica Brown, and Specialist Shoshana Johnson called. 

They resent the implication that being a woman in combat is a setback.

[Scourge of Ages]

I fail to see why it's so difficult to play as a female character. It's just another role you need to adjust to, like space marine or fighter pilot or professional race car driver or homicidal maniac, depending on what game you're playing. It shouldn't take too much mental capacity, girls aren't that mysterious. If you find it difficult, you may be over-thinking it a bit, or a lot.
So you don't know exactly what it feels like to be female? Well, you don't know what it feels like to be any of those other things (probably), you just take what you can and fill in the rest based on yourself.
I hope that made sense.

[Zacam]

The question boiled down to "Why did WiH elect a difference in approach in tackling the aspect of the player character"

The answer is "It was choice made out of the many available narrative options for delivering the over all concept of the story we wanted to tell"

That this choice is disagreeable, dismissive, applauded or anything else is a matter of personal choice and preference, as I see it. There are hopefully (for anybody that views the change in a more "negative" light (thought negative may be too strong a word choice)) still additional elements beyond that choice that can be appreciated from the experience, the story, the assets, what have you.

Any chance of simply letting it rest at that and calling it a day, folks?

[General Battuta]

Like Zacam says it was a decision made for a very specific and important story reason. It was absolutely critical to the metanarrative.

But frankly that reason should not have to be presented as some kind of justification. There should not be a need to justify non-male characters.

[Spoon]

it's queer and thus I didn't find the ending sad at all. It was more like "lol u n00bs got pwned gg no re."...but I'm getting off topic

Pretty much my reaction as well but for different reasons, because DE was a horrible experience for me because I was one of the people that had apparantly ran in a checkpoint bug that made the mission *impossible* to beat (I had to cheat and I still had to redo it 3 times with cheats on :/ ) also I was rooting for the GTVA at the time.

Now as a mod maker myself I'm finding this 'discussion' quite interesting to read. It's something I gave quite a bit of thought at the start of WoD (And there has been a few complaints that people found it hard to even identify who the player character even was, at the start of the campaign).
Now I certainly think that having an Alpha 1 is more immersive for freespace. But this only truely works in the retail format of having nameless expendable wingmates who have no conversations involving you. The moment you start adding named reoccuring wingmates who you can order around, it just becomes kinda silly to be this mute genderless presence.
Wing commander has also always had a player character and that worked just fine!

[Commander Zane]

Honestly, I can't understand why the BP:WiH team had to make the player character a female. Why did you do this? What inspired you to do so?

Because they can, and they did, and the campaign was still damn awesome.

Why do you want to exterminate me from the Universe? Are you offended?

If it's as simple as that the Inferno Upgrade should have a female player character too.

[Snail]

The thing that alienate me a lot more than player character gender is how the character reacts to things. [/captain obvious]

[DarthWang]

Wait, you mean there are actually characters in Blue Planet? I was too busy blowing **** up to notice 

[Luis Dias]

Interesting discussion. I also agree that I felt a little out of the immersiveness of the game.

But I don't think it had to do much with the gender of the player, more to do with her character which was entirely out of sync with my own.

Having said that, I do understand that playing a different gender than your own does not contribute to "immersiveness".

We must understand that BP isn't being developed by a game company which has the time and the resources to pull off a multi-gender option, and that the choice of a female protagonist is a welcome change.

I hoped that more game companies would do multi-gender protagonists and treat them equally. Not only make believable characters, etc., but also duplicate the marketing of it and make female covers and male covers. Female and male posters, etc (I'm looking at you, Bioware).