Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Topic started by: headdie on June 10, 2011, 09:29:39 am
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This is a subject I want to discuss further but I don't want to derail the thread on modelling the ship.
So ... people can envision their gunboats as heavy assault craft if they like, but that's not what the Gunboat is to me so it's not the Gunboat I'm making ;)
I find it highly unlikely that Empire had no use at all for hyperdrive capable starfighters. Sure the general strategy was TIEs carried by capital ships, but not even a single long range starfighter? I can't imagine that every time the Empire wants to project force the only answer is "We'll jump in the ISD". Apart from anything else a single ISD can't be in more than one place at one time. The same with Ion cannons, the Rebels had Ion cannons on two of the 4 main starship designs. Were Ion cannons so useless to the Empire that they didn't have any starfighter sized ships at all with that capability?
To me the Gunboat has an important niche in the Empire. It was the only long range Imperial star fighter, it was also the only Ion cannon equipped starfighter. It did go against the standard Imperial doctrine of TIEs carried by capital ships, but that's what made it so useful. It filled the holes in the standard doctrine, it was what made the standard doctrine workable because it added flexibility.
I also remember that Gunboats were used quite frequently in the design of XW & TF missions. They came up a lot more frequently than they "should" have given their limited numbers. Having had a go once at making some missions I can see why. They are very useful for filling holes in missions. I'm sure the reason that TG created the AG was because without it the Imperial Navy is just too inflexible to write certain scenarios.
So, my AG is a single seater multi-role starfighter, sitting in performance between the XW and the YW :)
The empire had starfighter bases in most systems they controlled not to mention a ridiculous number of ASD, VSD ISD, ISD II and other star-fighter carrying ships. The Imperial Doctrine of not using intersystem fighters was only viable because of the huge number of carrier ships and bases they had scattered through the known galaxy
I'll step back in to make a counter-point here, Headdie: A tactical fighter which can move independently of a large strike vessel is still immensely useful for obvious reasons, and any competent military force would field such a type. As you noted, there aren't massive numbers of Gunboats out there, and they exist as a specialized type - a fighter which can perform roles no other Imperial type can. Due to the large number of Imperial installations out there, as well as the comparatively small number of Gunboats, you'll not commonly encounter the type. But, if you need a fighter to act as a long-range escort, a tactical interdictor, or even an atmospheric close support fighter, etc., you genuinely need the AG.
The only other "common" Imperial jump fighters only become common after the EU really starts to set in, and these are most notably space superiority types. The AG has a definite, useful, albeit uncommon purpose. If you need to slam a target with big shuttles, the Lambda and the Landing Craft are there, and the DX-9 has ion cannons and torpedoes. The Gunboat is the bread and butter in between your heavy boarding and assault ships, and the only one that can escort them (barring your advanced TIEs which only come about much later) after they jump.
The issue is that the Empire mostly disregarded star fighters as an offensive platform (discrepancies with this exist but are small in number), preferring uber scale Shock and Awe tactics, doing things like glassing a planet with ISDs to suppress planetary insurgencies just to prove a point. Heck Vader used the Executor and several ISDs to hunt the Falcon in an asteroid field when it was clear from the damage the ISDs were taking that TIE patrols with the ISDs holding at the fringes would have been the better option. Fighter pilots in the Empire were mistrusted as a general group and used mainly for screening big ships, menial tasks like low priority patrol and as shock assets using numbers rather than equipment and tactics to get any job done. The assault gunboat on the other hand is a high cost per unit craft relative to the TIE series and far less throwaway as a result. Serious fighter development for the Empire such as serious improvements to the TIE series only start after the Alliance begins achieving significant victories using star fighters and the Empire finding itself needing to counter the threat they pose.
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But you see the Empire far too much as one whole construct.
With the far-reaching authority of the local governers and the massive terretory the Empire covers, there's got to be a few moffs that think different on the matter of fighter doctrine.
Also it's quite possible that the Gunboat was a first experiment and served as a proof of concept, which led the Empire to designing new TIEs with shields and hyperdrives.
Mind you, I know only little of the EU. Just speculating from what I've seen in the movies and games.
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I think the gunboat looks and acts like a Rebel ship and should be removed in favor of more TIEs
Problems can be solved by the application of more TIEs
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I think the gunboat looks and acts like a Rebel ship and should be removed in favor of more TIEs
Problems can be solved by the application of more TIEs
Would you like to TIE me up with some of your TIEs, Ty?
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I think the gunboat looks and acts like a Rebel ship and should be removed in favor of more TIEs
Problems can be solved by the application of more TIEs
Would you like to TIE me up with some of your TIEs, Ty?
Just look what David Carradine was up to in TIEland
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I'm in favor of tactical inflexibility and shortsighted orders of battle.
How dare you like what I dislike!
How dare you dislike what I like!
:p
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I'm in favor of tactical inflexibility and shortsighted orders of battle.
How dare you like what I dislike!
How dare you dislike what I like!
:p
What the **** is this stupid post, I haven't said anything to you about your likes or dislikes. Please don't start **** over a spaceship in a mod based on a video game based on a science fiction movie from half a century ago.
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You Sir, are not taking a joke well.
If this is an issue, I will delete said post and leave the thread to yourself.
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hahaha what the **** butthurttuta is the best poster
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Ahem...back on topic:
Are we forgetting the "Assault" in the title of Assault Gunboat? This isn't a space superiority fighter, it's an assault craft.
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I'd think the AG would be used mostly for rare precision strikes. Shock and awe by jumping in with an ISD and launching a few dozen TIE fighters is all good as your everyday imperial doctrine, but I'm sure you'd occasionally want to be more discreet. Maybe you need to assassinate a traitor by blowing up their shuttle without everyone knowing about it, maybe you have a cunning plan and want the rebels to think it was someone else who ambushed their convoy (in which case you don't want parts of the inevitable TIE casualties floating around the scene), or maybe you just need as few people as possible to know about your operation.
It seems like a ship reserved mostly for special missions and only flown by elite pilots.
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Whoa there, double derail. To elaborate a bit on my earlier comments, I think it's the "capabilities in between those of the X-wing and Y-wing" part that bothers me. For one thing, the Y-wing was a ship used by the Fleet twenty years before the present conflict. The X-wing, though the only modern space superiority fighter the rebels have, is still the next-generation Z-95 Headhunter, representing a direction the Imperial Navy has moved away from. These were/are good ships that can do a lot of things pretty well, but it's very unlikely that they can do any one task as well as their modern specialized Imperial counterparts can.
The Empire has no need for a mediocre all-rounder because they have the capability to be overwhelmingly in control as soon as they commit forces to battle. They could very well have a cruiser for every rebel starfighter in the Galaxy, cruisers that can respond to threats immediately and prepare their starfighters en route. My idea of an Imperial "fast response" unit would be something like a Vindicator class heavy cruiser with two squadrons of Ties in the bay. Why would you send a bunch of so-so fighters to possibly get creamed by "comparable" rebel forces when you can get there faster with a big ship and completely dominate the engagement?
In A New Hope, a handful of standard Tie fighters and one Advanced prototype absolutely cleaned house on "thirty rebel ships" at Yavin. Granted, that was an elite unit fighting over its home turf, but it demonstrates that Tie fighters are more than a match for the X and Y given adequate support from big ships (which Tie Fighters almost always have thanks to not having a hyperdrive). Carrier ships can get underway immediately and bring everything they need with them--that's the type of flexibility you need when you're trying to control a large area of space.
A more logical niche to me would be for the Gunboat to be tasked with something like precision disabling of point defense turrets on smaller targets that the Empire wants captured. That's a job that might be too fine for cap-ship weapons but would still require shields, as demonstrated by the Tie Fighter's (possibly deliberate) failure against the Falcon's point defense in ANH. Specialized success in this role could easily be achieved by removing the gunboats's hyperdrive and/or removing its dogfighting ability. Give the ship commensurate increases in shielding, armor, or primary firepower and you could have something that would be very useful given the right circumstances.
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I'd think the AG would be used mostly for rare precision strikes. Shock and awe by jumping in with an ISD and launching a few dozen TIE fighters is all good as your everyday imperial doctrine, but I'm sure you'd occasionally want to be more discreet. Maybe you need to assassinate a traitor by blowing up their shuttle without everyone knowing about it, maybe you have a cunning plan and want the rebels to think it was someone else who ambushed their convoy (in which case you don't want parts of the inevitable TIE casualties floating around the scene), or maybe you just need as few people as possible to know about your operation.
It seems like a ship reserved mostly for special missions and only flown by elite pilots.
that's a fair point, and indeed there are commanders who gravitate towards that style. I suppose in that light craft like the AG make sense.
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Yep. This is essentially the function of the Gunboat, where you can have a craft which can carry enough ordnance over a long range while maintaining a fairly low sensor profile (well, according to the SW-verse, at least). Your maneuverability and speed, though inferior to a TIE Fighter or Interceptor, will exceed that of a Bomber, and will also give you a good option against most Rebel fighters. If memory serves correctly, the AG has the same primary cannons as the Y-Wing, so any hit that lands is going to ruin someone's day.
The argument seems to be that the AG is bad because it fits the profile of many Rebel ships - and while it does indeed fit that profile, it's by no means a typical ship for the Empire, and it's not all that common. It's a strike fighter, ideal for getting high-value dirty work done, and should not be treated as expendable. Leave the general combat duties to the TIEs.
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While we're on the topic of rebel vs. Imperial fighter tactics, I'm not all that well-versed in EU stuff, but the X-Wing was originally a design by the same company that created the TIE Fighter, right? Was it ever expanded upon as being something that the Empire was considering using, or was it something the designers just happened to come up with on the side and give to the Rebellion?
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No I'm pretty sure the TIE is by Seinar and the T-65 by Incom. amirite c/d
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No I'm pretty sure the TIE is by Seinar and the T-65 by Incom. amirite c/d
This is correct, to a point. While all TIE designs I can think of were built by Seinar the X-wing was designed by a team of Incom engineers that defected to the rebels but with the defection the Empire basically took over the company so although the X-Wing is always attributed to Incom in the period prior to the rebellion forming the New Republic and starting to claim territory I would assume that the majority of Rebel X-wings would have been manufactured by groups and companies independent of Incom.
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I agree that the Assault Gunboat is definitely an anomaly in the imperial doctrine, though not to say it doesn't have its niche.
The one thing I see them really good for is escorting lone shuttles and single, small stuff like that which make hyperspace jumps and don't really like being left without escort. You know, you don't just pull a full blown Escort Carrier (as cheap as they are) along for that. That's what'd I'd want some hyperdrive capable fighters for.
It'll also be able to do that discreet strike stuff for capture without blowing them up horribly, or for blowing stuff up without leaving the inevitable TIE debris if you use TIEs. Then again, the Devastator has no problem not killing the Tantive and just reeling it in with its tractor beam so I don't know how much merit the first part of that argument actually holds. Why do you need to disable his peashooters? Just reel them in. And if its got big enough guns to hurt you, it can probably take a few hits.
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Like Droid, I think it's a niche ship, and most of the fluff stuff I've seen about fighter complements suggests that's true because they're rarely present in large numbers. (IIRC ISDs are usually cited as carrying five.)
Even with an ISD, you don't go in blind; you can achieve more by a well-timed and well-positioned entry. That means some kind of scouting, and TIEs can't do it. Similarly, there are times where you simply can't come off-station to engage that guy in a corvette who's ten or fifteen light-minutes out, because god knows what will show up while you do. Sometimes being able to operate a small force semi-independently is just too valuable to not have the capability.
AGs also seem like ideal "police" craft, able to patrol points of strategic interest or standard navigation routes without the existence of a larger base ship or the expenditure of lavish amounts of flight time to arrive on station, and able to run for help when something they cannot deal with turns up.
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AG's would also be great as an advanced scout... send them into a potentially hostile area ahead of its parent ISD, do recon, precision strikes, w/e. To me, AG's would be the perfect craft to perform such a role.
I can also imagine another scenerio where say intridictors are deployed in several sectors patrolling for smugglers... why task and ISD with a milk run patrol when an intridictor and a small contingent of AG's with a wing or two of TIE's would suffice? It would be economically smart to use smaller craft capable of handeling that instead of the full resources of an ISD.
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Even with an ISD, you don't go in blind; you can achieve more by a well-timed and well-positioned entry. That means some kind of scouting, and TIEs can't do it.
AG's would also be great as an advanced scout... send them into a potentially hostile area ahead of its parent ISD, do recon, precision strikes, w/e. To me, AG's would be the perfect craft to perform such a role.
Except you guys are forgetting the Empire already has probe droids to do this. Thousands or probably millions of them - and that's just what we saw in the movies. Going by EU, they also have an extensive net of sensor satellites. They really don't need starfighters to run recon for them.
We should really quit trying to come up with excuses to make the assault gunboat something it's not, and just let it be exactly what its name says: an Assault Gunboat.
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Except you guys are forgetting the Empire already has probe droids to do this. Thousands or probably millions of them - and that's just what we saw in the movies. Going by EU, they also have an extensive net of sensor satellites. They really don't need starfighters to run recon for them.
Probe droids are expendables, and as such are unlikely to be as reliable or as full-featured as a manned craft. The EU also includes instances of shuttles being used by Imperial forces for the exact purposes I describe.
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Beyond "assault" I also see the AG as a "hound" of the Imperial fleet. A common rebel doctrine is to disperse in all directions and later meet up at a pre-arranged destination. This forces the pursuing forces to split, increasing the chance that some of your forces will survive.
This is probably also a standard tactic used by smugglers and anyone with a bunch of hyper capable ships.
There's not much literature available on how well ships can be tracked through hyperspace, but it seems plausible that if you've seen a ship enter hyperspace - and you've trackced their vector while they've done so - then you at least have a corridor to search. (IIRC the X-Wing books had something about this).
...hence why you'd do multiple jumps after bugging out, to throw off pursuit. In a situation like this, the Empire would need hyper capable ships to track the fleeing crafts - and preferably disable them, so the crew can be interrogated to find out the rally point and strike there.
It also seems reasonable that bigger ships would have a harder time to make several jumps in quick succession (...and even the Empire would have a hard time footing the bill for a Star Destroyer doing that, those things just chug fuel). So the AG would be the ship to do such pursuit. Your cruisers can't be in several places at once, so you deploy a handful of gunboats. They'll jump after the fleeing ships and keep pursuing them, disabling those they can.
IMHO the ship shouldn't even have a good dogfighting capability - it's like interceptor craft on Earth: all big engines to pursue and intercept stuff and heavy weaponry to blow it up, not act as a fighter screen for your capital ships.
...as to the whole one seater vs. two seater argument. IMHO it should be a two seater: a pilot and a navigator who also doubles as flight mechanic. It's the navigator's job to handle the sensors, the nav-comp and setup hyper jumps. The pilot's the one who handles weaponry and flying.
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One problem with counting the gunboat as a pursuit craft is its slow hyperdrive. The wiki lists it as a class 12, the same speed as the very limited backup systems on some alliance starfighters. Here is a quote for comparison:
During the Galactic Civil War, military capital ships and starfighters were generally equipped with Class 1 or Class 2, industrial freighters and haulers with Class 3 or Class 4, and civilian starships with Class 5 or above.
While the exact scale isn't always consistent, the various Star Wars RPGs have used the rule that the class acts as a multiplier for travel time, which would mean with a class 12, the gunboat would take 12 times as long to reach its destination as an X-wing or an ISD, 24 times longer than the Falcon.
I've checked up on other sites, some list the gunboat's hyperdrive as a class 2, half the speed of an ISD, and some have it listed as a class 1, though only on fan-made RPG sites.
Anyways, the Class 12 stats make sense if the gunboat was intended only for short ranged, offensive operations (hence the assault designation) but even with its low sublight speed it still doesn't seem like it'd be effective in chasing, well, anything. Also backing this up is the statement that the gunboat's navicomputer can only make 4 jumps before needing to be reprogrammed and serviced.
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Likewise, we know from the movies that the Empire has scout ships ("Our scout ships have reached Dantooine") which presumably are fast in hyperspace and have better sensors than anything you could cram into a starfighter, so I don't know if I could get behind the Empire using this type of small assault craft for that purpose. If you want flexible, non-expendable scout/skirmishers, they shouldn't be slow as molasses and configured with all of the heavy armor and torpedo banks. Or if you want a patrol craft to monitor hyperspace lanes, shouldn't it have greater endurance than a fighter-sized vessel? I'm inclined to agree with Count Buggula that trying to come up with roles for the ship outside of specific assault scenarios where they could excel is what is turning the thing into a rebel ship. The Empire can have a dedicated class for every possible application; they don't have to water things down by trying to make them all able to do everything. These are the guys who built a second, bigger Death Star--it's not like they're worried about the cost :D
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And, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the Empire could indeed dedicate an ISD to every single rebel fighter and still have leftovers
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I think this discussion could go round and round in circles :) Star Wars is a story and an imaginary world, but everyone's version of Star Wars is a little different. Being fictional it has bits that are vague and unspecified - people fill those unspecified bits differently.
There were things I didn't like about the Totally Games games (*ahem* combat mechanics), but for me the thing I loved about them the most was the "lore". I loved being involved in the story and on the whole I really liked the way they fleshed out the Star Wars universe. I enjoyed living in the world they created and that's why they are some of my favourite games of all time, even with their flaws. For me one of the things I liked was how they "fleshed out" the Imperial fleet a little. On the whole I liked the concepts of the Gunboat and the TIE Avenger (but don't talk to me about the TD or MB though ...). And I felt totally comfortable with the idea that the Empire has a standard doctrine, but they also had a few of these other craft in small numbers to round out the fleet. I'm generally a believer that having flexibility in a military force is right, so that sits fine with me. I also think not all Imperial commanders would agree with the standard doctrine, and there would be pressure to appease those groups.
However for other people the story is different. For them the Empire is about the Star Destroyer and the TIE Fighters, and they feel that the AG (as presented by Totally Games) doesn't really fit in to that story. And that's okay everyone likes to fill out those gaps a little differently. Everyone has their own Star Wars story in their heads :)
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No! My version of a non existent fighter is the only correct one! The rest of you are wrong and must be corrected, for great justice!
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Well, that's all well and good, and would be fine if this were just a random discussion of it on the internet. But this is about design for a game, which means we either need to come to some sort of consensus or at least some sort of decision from the project leads.
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"We" don't need to agree on anything. We're neither on the team nor are we building the thing... But I should probably point out my previous post was a joke at this point :)
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lol - no I got the joke - that was directed more towards Tom's comment.
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Likewise, we know from the movies that the Empire has scout ships ("Our scout ships have reached Dantooine") which presumably are fast in hyperspace and have better sensors than anything you could cram into a starfighter, so I don't know if I could get behind the Empire using this type of small assault craft for that purpose.
We don't know that the scout ships aren't actually AGs. :P
But it doesn't have to be a designated role, simply a field-expedient one. The AG would seem to be a gap-filler, not a specific-purpose design. (Though if you want a specific purpose I suspect the AG is would be at its best fighting it out with ships like the Falcon, things too well-shielded and well-armed for a TIE to fight, but too quick to stand off at missile range and take potshots.) It can do many things, all of them useful, if nobody else happens to be handy to do them, and do them a little more survivably and cheaply than a Lambda.
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Heh, fair enough--the root reason I'm arguing the side I am is because of wanting to preserve the character of the Imperial fleet in a way I didn't feel the TG games succeeded at, not because there couldn't "actually" be several conceivable good uses for such a ship.
On that topic of people's personal conceptions of what SW should be like, I think it's important to not discourage contributors when discussing FotG's take on the universe. It's true that the game's "manual of style" (if you want to think of it that way) is heavily tilted in favor of material from the original trilogy films and certain EU sources, but that doesn't mean that things that come from outside that (like anything from the prequels) or from the hazy periphery (like the Assault Gunboat) will be outright rejected just because their sources aren't popular with the team.
It is possible that the background, capabilities, and appearance of submitted material might have to be tweaked in order to fit with the aesthetic and gameplay balance that the team is trying to achieve. Brand-X is content moderator, and Chief is project lead, and they are pretty demanding when it comes to maintaining those respective standards.
That said, it's important to remember that this is an effort with many contributors, and even the people running the show have to make compromises both with other people and with the limitations of the engine in order for the project to work. TomShak has been great about letting us in on his creative process with the gunboat, and I don't want him to feel discouraged from working on it just because of the many conflicting opinions (my own included) that have been voiced regarding what the ship should or shouldn't be like. The model is his work, the game is doing its thing, and if the two can be made to fit together, there will be much rejoicing :yes:
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Thanks swashmebuckle :)
CountBugula: Yes we do need to come to a consensus, since in the end we are designing the AG to fit into a particular vision of Star Wars. Whatever my own particular view of the AG, for me the most important thing is to fit into the FotG vision. So Chief, brandx0 ... do you have strong ideas on how the AG needs to be to fit in? Or is this down to the person designing the model (i.e. me)?
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I agree with swashmebuckle that just because a ship is designed with a specific purpose in mind, like I've been advocating, doesn't mean it can't be used to fill in a different kind of role in a pinch, and believe that there will and should be missions that do that. But I still think the design should be focused on a primary role, instead of having those additional roles or missions dictate craft design - it seems like that's what happened with the Totally Games versions, and is something several of us want to avoid.
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The debate as to the role and use of the AG albeit amusing I think is really moot. We are attempting to add logic in a universe with plot holes big enough to fit Mount Everest in with room to spare.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the AG developed in "TIE Fighter" as a counter part to the B-Wing. Capitol Scale Assault craft with lasers, warheads and ion cannons? Basically to give a counter balance for game mechanics to what was seen in "X-Wing"?
So if I am right, it was developed for player experience rather than a legitimate need for a craft based of Imperial Doctrine.
The point I am trying to make is simple. If people want to fly it, put it in the game. If you don't, don't FRED it into your missions.
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The AG came about first in X-Wing, which was before TIE Fighter. Don't forget that as a Rebel pilot, you were making a part to NOT get in the line of any large Imperial operations for the most part. As such, those installations so often noted were nowhere to be found in-mission, because you were obviously out to, you know, NOT BE DETECTED. The only way the Empire can rapidly react to out-of-the-way guerrilla starfighter attacks is to have a starfighter which can jump in anywhere, any time. This is the gameplay-mechanic logic of the Assault Gunboat.
That said, the AG was never an opponent-balance element, as most of the TIEs presented enough of a challenge. The AG was there for issues when TIEs could not be. For this reason, it's still a valid, viable, and useful type.
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I still find it somewhat funny how people vehemently defend their views on a non existent craft that isn't even entirely canon to a non existent universe. Pages and pages of the stuff. These guys are doing professional level work for free simply because they love the Star Wars universe that much - probably know about it more than most of us. I'd trust them to get it right..
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Thank you newman! That is pretty much my point:)
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I've always been a fan of the AG for some reason.
I don't see it as something even close to fleetwide, just in the outer rim, deployed from remote outposts for in-system patrols and interception duty where large feet ships and imperial infastructure isn't as prelevent, as a limited-deployment and more purpose-built successor to the Y-wing perhaps.
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In case anyone is still reading this, there are a couple of points that haven't been floated yet;
There is a Tie Scout - it has large, vertical tops to its wings & slightly bent outwards lower wings. It carries a pilot & a sensor operator, has a hyperdrive, 1 laser cannon & a powerful sensor suite. For scouting missions, it's the imperial fighter of choice, much better at the job than the AG & probably cheaper too.
At the height of the empire, there were 25,000 ISDs in operation. Even if there were 10 times that many VSDs (250k) & 10 times as many non-SD large vessels (2.5m), that's not a lot - in the scale of the galaxy. There were over 69 million known inhabited worlds in the SW galaxy, meaning with the above figures each big ship has to cover nearly 25 worlds - & that's not allowing for the number of these ships that were arranged into fleets, armardas, wing-pairs, etc., which would stretch the lines even thinner. Given this, smaller hyperdrive-equipped vessels would be a necessity to act as remote force projection & shuttle escorts to name just 2 likely deployment reasons.
Since playing as the empire is going to happen, flying an AG with it's X-wing - like performance is entirely viable for gameplay (for the deployments mentioned above there could be a mission where the player is launched into a furball through an attack that the parent ship is engaged in to respond to a distress call elsewhere, or a shuttle escort mission, fighting off a full squadron of enemy fighters while trying to keep the VIP safe). While a rarer vessel, it would still have a role in the Imperial starfighter corps. As it's an Assault Gunboat, it should be more likely to survive being involved in an assault - where the enemy might be more likely to send up defensive fighters - than, for example, a Skipray Blastboat, which has an even more impressive array of weapons, more solid hull & resilient shields, but the maneuverability of a brick.