Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on August 19, 2011, 05:51:46 am
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...starting Sunday, but they let me out (after I requested) due to financial issues on my end.
http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=234482
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Interesting how these events coincide with the move for the establishment of a Palestine state. It's a mess over there and a hornet's nest to talk about. Hope you won't need to serve, best to stay out of all wars.
“The source of these terror acts is in Gaza and we will act against them with full force.”
The war drums beat already..
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“The source of these terror acts is in Gaza and we will act against them with full force.”
The war drums beat already..
I guess you could say it sounds that way, as long as you ignore the war drums that have been beating against Israel in the form of thousands of rockets fired at our cities over the past 10 years or suicide bombings directed at civilians... :rolleyes:
Sorry, I just have that kind of reaction whenever I see a double-standard being applied in the situation. :)
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Ah, I'm sorry if I sound like I'm applying double standards. Looking from an outsider's perspective makes his response sound very aggressive. I just wonder why people have been launching all those rockets and suicide bombing, doesn't seem too exciting to do.
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I guess you could say it sounds that way, as long as you ignore the war drums that have been beating against Israel in the form of thousands of rockets fired at our cities over the past 10 years or suicide bombings directed at civilians...
Sorry, I just have that kind of reaction whenever I see a double-standard being applied in the situation.
That stuff still hasn't stopped? I haven't heard any mention of rockets being fired from the media here at least for a year.
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I haven't heard any mention of rockets being fired from the media here at least for a year.
funny that, I guess when something goes on long enough the media lose interest.
I just wonder why people have been launching all those rockets and suicide bombing, doesn't seem too exciting to do.
why is the state of Texas perpetually on the cusp of assigning the bible as a science text book? and have you ever launched a rocked at a massively fortified and highly protective nation? I doubt boring is the word one would choose to describe the reaction.
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I'm compiling a list of all the HLPers that are going to receive free 20th-century history textbooks courtesy of me if I ever win the lottery. Threads like this are frequently goldmines.
Stay safe, Sandwich.
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“The source of these terror acts is in Gaza and we will act against them with full force.”
The war drums beat already..
I guess you could say it sounds that way, as long as you ignore the war drums that have been beating against Israel in the form of thousands of rockets fired at our cities over the past 10 years or suicide bombings directed at civilians... :rolleyes:
Sorry, I just have that kind of reaction whenever I see a double-standard being applied in the situation. :)
The attacks on the palestinians tend to stick more in my head since those apperently kill more often. And then this happens, so now its back again.
I am still utterly convinced that all sides of that conflict are bat**** insane. Nothing personal.
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I can't wait until World War 3.......
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From my point of view it's a case of Israel's neighbors wanting it destroyed, and so they finance and enable terrorism against it, even if, officially, they distance themselves from it. Case in point: Arafat condemning terrorism while secretly funding the families of suicide bombers, AKA: Martyrs. I think the reason that the Palestinians have stopped almost all terrorist attacks and it's sporadic ones like this that make news now, well, I think it's a testament to Israel's response -- Israel's neighbors know that if they attack Israel, it hits back ten times as hard. The security wall and the naval blockade seem to contribute their fair share to Israel's security as well, so it might just be those two things that have stabilized it.
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On the other hand, there's still some huminitarian crisis. Solve one problem and you cause another. Grrr. Its impossible.
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Jeez...keep your head down Sandvich.
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I'm compiling a list of all the HLPers that are going to receive free 20th-century history textbooks courtesy of me if I ever win the lottery. Threads like this are frequently goldmines.
What would be about this subject in the history book?
All I learned is that Jeruzalem (Like Babylon) and it's environment has always been a war zone, 17 empires conquered it before. It's a mess to even start to discuss who is the rightful owner of the place, nor how to create peace, there wont be any cause -both- sides are compelled to wage war against another, fueled by..whatever it is that keeps people fighting for the place. It's futile unless you actually try to help both sides to get what they need.
It evaporates the opinion of Gaza, of the colonization of the area, the whole mess that's going on there present day. its always been that way, and everyone claims it's their holy, promised, hereditary, family land.
Whatever causes people to keep warring over the area seems to have some very negative influence on people.
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Jerusalem wasn't conquered by 17 empires in the 20th century, though.
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Jerusalem wasn't conquered by 17 empires in the 20th century, though.
Well that's obvious, but that doesn't say much to the Arabian and other peoples that have inhabited the surrounding areas for thousands of years, all of which ancestors (or themselves) at one time have conquered the area, causing them all to feel they have a claim to it. That's why it's so hard to tell one group of people it's their land and the other to get out, to put people in one part of the country and another to allow further colonization, and so on.
Though I do have to admit i'm a little peeved so much money gets sent to Israel since it's founding, it's huge costs for the USA, and being put in -any- side of the struggle only continues to fuel it.
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Glad you're ok, Sandwich.
Too bad about the Gaza blockade. Hearing a lot of reports that it's inducing pretty bad conditions on the people living there; that might be a cause of a lot of the anger.
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That stuff still hasn't stopped? I haven't heard any mention of rockets being fired from the media here at least for a year.
Figures... not that I expect every single rocket to be reported world-wide, but an occasional "Rocket fire against southern Israeli towns continued unabated this month" article would be nice to see... :rolleyes:
In any case, QassamCount (http://twitter.com/#!/QassamCount) is the only place I could find that appears to report on every rocket fired... the recent activity was a rocket heading for Ashkelon that was intercepted by the Iron Dome 7 hours ago, 2 mortar shells 9 hours ago, 2 rockets 11 hours ago that weren't intercepted, another 2 Grad rockets 13 hours ago... the list goes on. When the barrage continues in such an intense, continual and unending fashion, no wonder the world media stops reporting on it. I can't really blame them... I just hope it helps some of you understand the situation here a bit better.
Though I do have to admit i'm a little peeved so much money gets sent to Israel since it's founding, it's huge costs for the USA, and being put in -any- side of the struggle only continues to fuel it.
In all fairness, I think the massive uprisings in nearly all the Arab nations in the Middle East kind of makes the US's investment into supporting Israel sound much more sensible, don't you? I'm not talking specifics, amounts, details - just stating that the general notion of supporting the one real democratic nation in the cauldron of decidedly undemocratic nations seems like a good idea when said undemocratic nations go to pot.
Too bad about the Gaza blockade. Hearing a lot of reports that it's inducing pretty bad conditions on the people living there; that might be a cause of a lot of the anger.
The blockade only prevents weapons from getting through, not humanitarian aid. Don't make connections between the weapons blockade and the crap living conditions in Gaza when there isn't one.
That said, the living conditions in Gaza do suck. I recall reading a statistic a long time ago (like, in the 90's sometime) about how Gaza was one of the most densely populated places on the planet. With much of the international support being appropriated by the Hamas to fund their terrorism operations, it's no surprise Gazans live in squalid conditions.
One thing I'd like to point out, however, is that every Arab village I've ever been in has been far below what a typical 3rd-world person would consider "average" living conditions (and please, I'm not trying to be "maliciously" racist, but to state facts as I've observed them). This includes not only the villages, towns, and cities under Palestinian Authority civic control in the West Bank that I've been through on patrol, but also the Israeli Arab neighborhoods just down the street from my house, here in Jerusalem - which are under the same civic rules, rights, and management as the other neighborhoods in Jerusalem. For whatever reasons, the Middle-East Arab culture or mindset appears to not place much value on cleanliness, rural upkeep, etc. There's litter all over the place (cans, bottles, and other garbage), half-built (or half-ruined) buildings seemingly in every 5th lot, pothole-strewn streets that might have been decently paved once...
Anyway, all this to say that although the conditions in Gaza may be frightfully appalling when compared to a 3rd-world country, when you compare Gaza to the average Arab village or neighborhood, there's a lot less contrast.
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Too bad about the Gaza blockade. Hearing a lot of reports that it's inducing pretty bad conditions on the people living there; that might be a cause of a lot of the anger.
I think he knows that, and I think you know that the blockade didn't happen in a vacuum either.
the one real democratic nation in the cauldron of decidedly undemocratic nations
The way Libya has been headed the last week, you might not be able to hold that distinction much longer.
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And as long as Israel self-identifies as Jewish and for Jews, then you're not really a good posterboy for democracy either.
Maybe more democratic, but I wouldn't call that true democracy by any stretch.
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Exactly the point I was about to make NGTM-1R. Arabs simply do not have the same rights as Jews in Israel so it's pretty hard to make the claim that it's a model of democracy for the rest of the Arab nations.
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The blockade only prevents weapons from getting through, not humanitarian aid. Don't make connections between the weapons blockade and the crap living conditions in Gaza when there isn't one.
The UN appears to disagree. There's been some talk about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007-present_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Goods_blocked).
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Interesting how the report Sandwich posted bears little relation to the incident as reported by the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14600357). I know that it's easier for Israeli news sources to find out the names of their own injured and killed in the incident but to completely miss out that several Egyptian policemen were killed in that raid into Egypt is rather strange.
Even the later report (http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=234585) covering the withdrawal of the envoy is different.
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Figures... not that I expect every single rocket to be reported world-wide, but an occasional "Rocket fire against southern Israeli towns continued unabated this month" article would be nice to see...
In any case, QassamCount is the only place I could find that appears to report on every rocket fired... the recent activity was a rocket heading for Ashkelon that was intercepted by the Iron Dome 7 hours ago, 2 mortar shells 9 hours ago, 2 rockets 11 hours ago that weren't intercepted, another 2 Grad rockets 13 hours ago... the list goes on. When the barrage continues in such an intense, continual and unending fashion, no wonder the world media stops reporting on it. I can't really blame them... I just hope it helps some of you understand the situation here a bit better.
That's much more than I expected based on the news here! I was expecting a rocket or two in a month - that's the kind of idea you get here - but in those numbers, it's low level war.
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And as long as Israel self-identifies as Jewish and for Jews, then you're not really a good posterboy for democracy either.
Maybe more democratic, but I wouldn't call that true democracy by any stretch.
Exactly the point I was about to make NGTM-1R. Arabs simply do not have the same rights as Jews in Israel so it's pretty hard to make the claim that it's a model of democracy for the rest of the Arab nations.
:wtf: Democracy, by definition, is rule of the people. Israel faces an existential threat demographically because the Arab citizens of Israel have a higher birthrate on average than the Jewish citizens do. Nobody knows how this will end up being resolved.
And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status). Even so, many non-Jewish citizens of Israel, such as the Druze and Bedouins, choose to serve in the IDF of their own accord. I was friends with a number of them in my Combat Engineers company.
The blockade only prevents weapons from getting through, not humanitarian aid. Don't make connections between the weapons blockade and the crap living conditions in Gaza when there isn't one.
The UN appears to disagree. There's been some talk about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007-present_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Goods_blocked).
Did you read the beginning of that Wikipedia article? It's quite enlightening... here's some choice excerpts (emphasis and parenthetical comments mine):
The blockade of the Gaza Strip refers to a land, air, and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt since June 2007...
...Shortly after, in June [2007], Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in the course of the Battle of Gaza, seizing government institutions and replacing Fatah and other government officials with its own. Following the takeover, Egypt and Israel largely sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on the Palestinian side...
...Since 2007 Egypt and Israel largely keep their borders with the [Gaza] territory sealed. Israel limits humanitarian supplies from aid organizations into the Strip... (because Hamas often diverted said supplies for their own use, away from the people the supplies were intended for)
...Israel maintained that the blockade is necessary to limit Palestinian rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip on its cities and to prevent Hamas from obtaining other weapons....
In July 2011, the UN investigative committee for the 2010 Flotilla to Gaza said that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is legal.
So yes, while the blockade certainly isn't improving the quality of life in Gaza, neither is the constant rocket bombardment on southern Israeli towns and cities (none of which are in the "occupied territories"!).
Interesting how the report Sandwich posted bears little relation to the incident as reported by the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14600357). I know that it's easier for Israeli news sources to find out the names of their own injured and killed in the incident but to completely miss out that several Egyptian policemen were killed in that raid into Egypt is rather strange.
Even the later report (http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=234585) covering the withdrawal of the envoy is different.
Err, Israeli news sources had already covered that part. Occasionally, we're a bit quicker to cover these close-to-home stories than international news agencies, hard as that may be to believe. :p
The JP article I linked to was posted on August 19th at 11:53am (Israeli time; 9:53 GMT), but 2 hours earlier, at 9:45am (7:45am GMT), this article was posted (http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=234465), which reports on both the suicide bomber that killed a number of Egyptian soldiers at the Philadelphi Route border crossing, as well as the Egyptian security forces that were caught in the line of fire between the IDF and terrorists that were being chased. Then later that day, at 6:46pm (4:46pm GMT), the JP covered the Egyptian protest over the deaths of their security forces (http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=234521). Then, on the following day entirely, the BBC one you linked to was posted, on August 20th at 13:06 GMT, claiming the Israeli envoy was being recalled. An hour and a half later, JP posted 'Egyptian official denies ambassador to TA was recalled' (http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=234610).
All that to say, we'd covered it already; perhaps you should rely on local news sources for more timely and accurate information than globe-spanning mega-agencies can deliver.
That's much more than I expected based on the news here! I was expecting a rocket or two in a month - that's the kind of idea you get here - but in those numbers, it's low level war.
Indeed... and look at this (http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=234835) and then this (http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=234895).
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:wtf: Democracy, by definition, is rule of the people. Israel faces an existential threat demographically because the Arab citizens of Israel have a higher birthrate on average than the Jewish citizens do. Nobody knows how this will end up being resolved.
And right there you prove the racism inherent in the country. In a democratic country demographics shouldn't affect the right of the people to govern themselves as they see fit. What you're saying is that even if the Arabs do outnumber the Jews they should have less say in the religion and government of their country.
There is no possible way to justify that and claim that you have a fair and equal democracy.
And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status). Even so, many non-Jewish citizens of Israel, such as the Druze and Bedouins, choose to serve in the IDF of their own accord. I was friends with a number of them in my Combat Engineers company.
I'd suggest you read the article you just posted yourself as it has several examples of exactly the sort of thing I was on about.
Err, Israeli news sources had already covered that part. Occasionally, we're a bit quicker to cover these close-to-home stories than international news agencies, hard as that may be to believe. :p
I think you missed my point. My point was that any article on the BBC would have been balanced enough to have mentioned the incident involved several deaths over the Egyptian border regardless of whether or not they'd mentioned it earlier[/quote]
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:wtf: Democracy, by definition, is rule of the people. Israel faces an existential threat demographically because the Arab citizens of Israel have a higher birthrate on average than the Jewish citizens do. Nobody knows how this will end up being resolved.
The rule of the people is the rule of the people. Who those people are does not and should not matter.
You are, as Karaj put it, proving my point.
And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF. Even so, many non-Jewish citizens of Israel, such as the Druze and Bedouins, choose to serve in the IDF of their own accord. I was friends with a number of them in my Combat Engineers company.
Don't make me laugh. What of Israel's claim it's the only place Jews can get a fair trial in the world? Its common refusal to extradite its citizens to other countries? Its politics being dominated by right-wing Jewish groups?
It's not about rights; it's about privilege and who is granted it.
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I only keep up to date on the things in Israel through a monthly magazine called 'Israel today' so I can't really claim to know as much on the situation as Sandwich does. I find it really interesting to read some of your experiences and the things you've seen.
One thing I'd like to point out, however, is that every Arab village I've ever been in has been far below what a typical 3rd-world person would consider "average" living conditions (and please, I'm not trying to be "maliciously" racist, but to state facts as I've observed them). This includes not only the villages, towns, and cities under Palestinian Authority civic control in the West Bank that I've been through on patrol, but also the Israeli Arab neighborhoods just down the street from my house, here in Jerusalem - which are under the same civic rules, rights, and management as the other neighborhoods in Jerusalem. For whatever reasons, the Middle-East Arab culture or mindset appears to not place much value on cleanliness, rural upkeep, etc. There's litter all over the place (cans, bottles, and other garbage), half-built (or half-ruined) buildings seemingly in every 5th lot, pothole-strewn streets that might have been decently paved once...
This is something I've read and heard quite a few times from people visiting arab countries. Their cities always seem dirty and poorly maintained for some reason.
And right there you prove the racism inherent in the country. In a democratic country demographics shouldn't affect the right of the people to govern themselves as they see fit. What you're saying is that even if the Arabs do outnumber the Jews they should have less say in the religion and government of their country.
There is no possible way to justify that and claim that you have a fair and equal democracy.
A wonderful politically correct view that disregards reality. The reality being that there are several arabic (if not, the majority of them) shouting for the destruction of Israel for the longest of time now. 'a fair and equal democracy' doesn't really have a place in a country that is constantly fighting a war for survival. The Jewish people would be completely bonkers if they weren't looking out for themselves, because they sure as hell can't expect their friendly neighbors to play nice.
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There is no possible way to justify that and claim that you have a fair and equal democracy.
A wonderful politically correct view that disregards reality.
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He's speaking of Arabs who are citizens of Israel.
Full citizens, according to Sandwhich, of the state in question. Either their opinions carry equal weight as citizens or they don't. If their own citizenry should lose faith in their state, what right does it have to exist?
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Exactly. Sandwich claims that the Arabs who live in Israel and are Israeli citizens have no less rights than Jews who live there. He is of course speaking nonsense as it's pretty obvious that within a few years the Arabs will be the majority but yet will be living in a country that is somehow still a Jewish state.
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Exactly. Sandwich claims that the Arabs who live in Israel and are Israeli citizens have no less rights than Jews who live there. He is of course speaking nonsense as it's pretty obvious that within a few years the Arabs will be the majority but yet will be living in a country that is somehow still a Jewish state.
Israel was created as a Jewish state. Its state religion is Judaism. That will not change based on population demographic. That does not affect rights in-country.
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Why shouldn't that change though? Suppose the Muslims eventually outnumber the Jews 10:1 or even 100:1 it should still stay a Jewish state?
And you're wrong. It does affect rights in the country. A Jew in Israel can marry a Jew anywhere else in the world and have them get Jewish citizenship. An Arab cannot. How can you possibly claim that isn't affecting someone's rights?
There are many more examples of that sort of thing BTW.
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Why shouldn't that change though? Suppose the Muslims eventually outnumber the Jews 10:1 or even 100:1 it should still stay a Jewish state?
Israel is a Jewish state, established as a homeland for the Jews. BY DEFINITION, it will remain a Jewish state. Unless you want to repeat the entire fiasco again in fifty or a hundred or two hundred years.
In other words, yes. It should still stay a Jewish state.
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So basically when the Arabs get sick of having a minority dictate to them what religion their own country should be, they should have no option other than revolution in order to re-establish the country as something other than a Jewish state?
That's some really forwards thinking there! :rolleyes:
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*random, nvm*
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So are you basically saying that if the Arab countries cannot destroy Israel by force they should just destroy it by living in it and by becoming the majority? And the Jews should just let that happen... because?
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. . . no, he's saying that Isreal is not really a democracy because it does not reflect the beliefs and opinions of its people. A secular state might be a good idea.
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Well that's what I am saying, there is no real place for a democracy of that kind in Israel.
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In which case Sandwich was wrong in his original statement that Israel is a good example of democracy to the rest of the middle east. Both NGMT-1R and myself challenged that view on the grounds that Israel grants one particular group of people more rights than others. Furthermore the argument that since Israel was founded as a Jewish state and therefore must always remain one is counter to his argument. The other countries surrounding Israel are mostly if not completely founded as Muslim states. If you want them to reject theocracy and go over to a secular system of government you certainly can't point at Israel as an example of this while it continues to have one rule for one religion (even when that religion is the minority) and one rule for everyone else.
And if you're going to claim that Israel should never be more secular, don't ever complain that the other countries of the Middle East should be.
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Did you read the beginning of that Wikipedia article? It's quite enlightening... here's some choice excerpts (emphasis and parenthetical comments mine):
The blockade of the Gaza Strip refers to a land, air, and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt since June 2007...
...Shortly after, in June [2007], Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in the course of the Battle of Gaza, seizing government institutions and replacing Fatah and other government officials with its own. Following the takeover, Egypt and Israel largely sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on the Palestinian side...
...Since 2007 Egypt and Israel largely keep their borders with the [Gaza] territory sealed. Israel limits humanitarian supplies from aid organizations into the Strip... (because Hamas often diverted said supplies for their own use, away from the people the supplies were intended for)
...Israel maintained that the blockade is necessary to limit Palestinian rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip on its cities and to prevent Hamas from obtaining other weapons....
In July 2011, the UN investigative committee for the 2010 Flotilla to Gaza said that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is legal.
So yes, while the blockade certainly isn't improving the quality of life in Gaza, neither is the constant rocket bombardment on southern Israeli towns and cities (none of which are in the "occupied territories"!).].
Indeed. Yet still, the blockade is a significant factor, instead of not one at all.
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*facepalm* Sorry for leaving this discussion for so long.
Democracy
My intention in stating the demographic issue Israel might face in the future, with the Israeli Arabs potentially outnumbering the Israeli Jews, is that because Israel is a democracy, arriving at a point where the Arab citizens outnumber the Jewish ones does conflict with Israel having been founded as a Jewish state. If Israel was a dictatorship, there wouldn't be a problem - the Arab citizens would eventually outnumber the Jewish citizens, but the government would be unaffected by this because "hey, who cares about the majority, we're a Jewish state!" But instead, we do have a democracy, where the majority of the people does decide who gets elected, and thus we might end up having a conflict between the democratic process, and the original intent behind Israel's foundation.
Let me be perfectly clear: I'm not saying that the original intent overrides the democratic process. I'm also not saying that the democratic process overrides the original intent. I don't know - nobody does (that I know of). That's why it's called a conflict - when two values have results that aren't in agreement with each other.
Citizenship
Now as to the claims that Israel isn't a proper/full/whatever democracy because of the rights of attaining citizenship:
A Jew in Israel can marry a Jew anywhere else in the world and have them get Jewish citizenship. An Arab cannot. How can you possibly claim that isn't affecting someone's rights?
Every democratic country has their own rules, regulations, and laws concerning the granting of citizenship. Take the US: we've all seen the "Live and Work in the US" banner ads hawking the Green Card lotteries. Why Green Cards if it's a democracy and anyone can become a citizen? Well, because there are certain rules in place that determine who can become a citizen and who can't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_States#Pathways_to_citizenship). Take note that the US has historically been more open to accepting the outcasts than most other nations, largely due to the circumstances of the US's founding (many colonists were fleeing from religious persecution, etc).
Back to Israel, which has it's own rules for allowing a person to become a citizen. In Israel's case, however, many rules are genealogically-based. Take me, for example. My father is fully Jewish (by birth - I'm not talking about religion here at all). My mother isn't at all. Under the Law of Return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return), my parents and my brother and I all got citizenship (from the Wikipedia: "The Law of Return provides sanctuary to anyone covered by the definition under the Nuremberg Laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws)"). Since my father is Jewish, not my mother, I'm not considered Jewish by the State of Israel, and yet, when I married my also-not-Jewish American wife, she began the process of getting her citizenship here as well (the 5-year process is primarily to verify that it's a true marriage, and not just a paper marriage as a means to attaining citizenship).
Now, to the Israeli Arab side of things. After the Second Intifada, Israel passed the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law), which "makes inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen." This law is hotly debated, considered by many to be racist, etc. Since it's geared towards preventing enemies of Israel from attaining Israel citizenship, I don't see it any different from the American citizenship test, where "The new test probes for signs that immigrants 'understand and share American values.'" If a nation isn't going to protect itself from being undermined from within by those who want it destroyed, what point is there in that nation existing?
Legality
Finally, the legality issue always comes up in these discussions. The 1967 borders (a.k.a. the Green Line, or the "border" of the West Bank), Jerusalem / East Jerusalem, etc. If you're interested in any of that, watch this video for some insight about the post-WWI San Remo conference and what it means for the legality of Israel and Palestine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVsjNzXojCM
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Huh, i never considered that Israel might be a problem that could potentially solve itself. The struggle if it goes secular or muslim won't be pleasant though
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And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status).
Simply out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind this policy?
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And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status).
Simply out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind this policy?
I can't say for sure, as I wasn't the one who put the policy in place. :p The Wikipedia gives a good background as to why the Israel Arabs have citizenship to begin with (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_nationality_law#Residence):
Citizenship by residence was intended for non-Jewish denizens of the British Mandate of Palestine (Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, etc.) who were considered to be associated with Palestine during the period immediately prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Such denizens who were still within the territorial confines of Israel after the war were granted full Israeli citizenship.
(So much for the "Israel kicked us out of our homes" claim tossed around so often...)
...and earlier in the same article:
Military service is legally mandatory for virtually all of Israel's citizens and residents although various exemptions can be granted. Certain ethnic groups, such as Arab Israelis, have received a blanket exemption
So with that in mind, we know that just because an Israeli Arab has their citizenship, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are "for" the State of Israel - it merely means that they (or their parents or grandparents) elected to remain in their homes after Israel won the 1948 war. Generally, one wants soldiers in an army who are loyal to the country they would be defending (for obvious reasons), so granting the Israel Arabs a blanket exemption from military service handles the issue nicely.
Heck, one could even look at it from the point of view that the Jews in Israel are second-class citizens, where they have the additional obligation to spend 2-3 years in military service, like it or not... but let's not go there. :D
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Citizenship by residence was intended for non-Jewish denizens of the British Mandate of Palestine (Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, etc.) who were considered to be associated with Palestine during the period immediately prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Such denizens who were still within the territorial confines of Israel after the war were granted full Israeli citizenship.
(So much for the "Israel kicked us out of our homes" claim tossed around so often...)
Oh you must be ****ing kidding me. :rolleyes: Surely everyone can see the flaw in that logic. If anyone left in Israel became a citizen it doesn't follow that no one was kicked out of their homes because that doesn't account for anyone kicked out BEFORE that declaration.
Here, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus) instead.
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Generally, one wants soldiers in an army who are loyal to the country they would be defending (for obvious reasons), so granting the Israel Arabs a blanket exemption from military service handles the issue nicely.
Aren't there also quite a few jews which are opposed to the state of Isreal due to religious reasons?
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Generally, one wants soldiers in an army who are loyal to the country they would be defending (for obvious reasons), so granting the Israel Arabs a blanket exemption from military service handles the issue nicely.
Aren't there also quite a few jews which are opposed to the state of Isreal due to religious reasons?
Yeah. It's mostly nutjobs like the Naturei Karta.
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Oh you must be ****ing kidding me. :rolleyes: Surely everyone can see the flaw in that logic. If anyone left in Israel became a citizen it doesn't follow that no one was kicked out of their homes because that doesn't account for anyone kicked out BEFORE that declaration.
So instead you prefer to believe that the process was, in essence:
Jew: "Git outta here you dirty Arabs b'fore we kill you!"
Arab 1: "We're leaving, we're leaving!"
Arab 2: "No way you Zionist pig, this is our home and we're staying put!"
Jew: "Ok Arab 2, here, take full citizenship then."
Obviously a very colorful representation, but you get the point.
Here, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus) instead.
In all honesty, I don't know for a fact what happened. I wasn't there. That article (and I only skimmed it - at work right now) just tells me that the debate is far larger than I was aware of... I should've guessed, though. In any case, I tend to believe the side that doesn't have a track record of rewriting history in schools (eg. teaching that the Holocaust never happened, etc) when there are conflicting claims about what did or didn't happen.
Also, I'd like to point out that the region was a warzone, and wars suck. Regardless of whether the Arabs were getting actively kicked out or not, I can't blame them in the slightest for not wanting to live in what had become the frontlines. Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?
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So instead you prefer to believe that the process was, in essence:
Jew: "Git outta here you dirty Arabs b'fore we kill you!"
Arab 1: "We're leaving, we're leaving!"
Arab 2: "No way you Zionist pig, this is our home and we're staying put!"
Jew: "Ok Arab 2, here, take full citizenship then."
Obviously a very colorful representation, but you get the point.
Has it occurred to you that there might have been more than one Jew in that conversation? And that the Jews responsible for the intimidation were not the same ones who granted citizenship? However by ignoring the excesses of their countrymen and refusing to grant restitution for them, they are party to their crimes.
my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?
How many refugees did Israel accept from Syria in the last few weeks? How many from Lebanon during all the wars there? How many from the West Bank or Gaza despite the fact that some people would rather not live there? I doubt the number is as high as the 750,000 displaced during the War of Independence.
It's very few countries who actually accept refugees on that sort of scale. They're not citizens of their country, they're Israelis by birth if not by citizenship. The fact that they're acting like scum towards those refugees doesn't mean Israel gets a pass on their treatment of them. ESPECIALLY if you're going to claim that Israel is an enlightened democracy that is showing the same countries how to behave.
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Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?
This is repulsive.
"Sure, we might have kicked the Palestinians out, but honestly it's the Egypt's fault so they should take them!"
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I've been trying to stay out of this but I just can't help it.
Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?
So you're blaming Jordan, Syria and Egypt for Israel effectively creating its own version of the South African Homelands? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aparteid#Homeland_system)
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So you're blaming Jordan, Syria and Egypt for Israel effectively creating its own version of the South African Homelands? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aparteid#Homeland_system)
Don't be a mindless sheep who repeats the party line just because everyone else is doing so - or at least make sure what you're repeating makes sense.
I'm blaming said nations for attacking Israel in a 3-front war the moment she was established by the international community as a recognized nation. The 1948 war is what led to the existence of the Arab refugees, not the formation of the state of Israel.
Try harder.
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Nice Ad Hom. What you're essentially saying is that Israel didn't really forcibly expel people from their homes and not allow them to return, it just sort of happened on its own, is that an accurate interpretation of what you're trying to say?
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I'm blaming said nations for attacking Israel in a 3-front war the moment she was established by the international community as a recognized nation. The 1948 war is what led to the existence of the Arab refugees, not the formation of the state of Israel.
Try harder.
This is just... Whelp. Are you seriously claiming this? Are you seriously stating that Israel just had to expel the Palestinians (who were living there) because someone else attacked Israel?
This is, from both logical and ethical point of view, completely bizarre and insane.
1. How does S/J/E attack logically lead to expulsion of Palestinians
2. How does an attack absolve Israel of actions it itself decided to take
this boggles the mind
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Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?
There are almost 2 million Palestinian refugees in Jordan and and 470 000 in Syria.
(BTW, Palestinians are Palestinians, even if they are Arabs.)
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I'm blaming said nations for attacking Israel in a 3-front war the moment she was established by the international community as a recognized nation. The 1948 war is what led to the existence of the Arab refugees, not the formation of the state of Israel.
Try harder.
This is just... Whelp. Are you seriously claiming this? Are you seriously stating that Israel just had to expel the Palestinians (who were living there) because someone else attacked Israel?
This is, from both logical and ethical point of view, completely bizarre and insane.
1. How does S/J/E attack logically lead to expulsion of Palestinians
2. How does an attack absolve Israel of actions it itself decided to take
this boggles the mind
if Israel was justified, and everything made sense, they wouldnt need AIPAC to buy all of the US's politicians in order to use our UN security council vote to veto every UN resolution against them.
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Don't be a mindless sheep who repeats the party line just because everyone else is doing so - or at least make sure what you're repeating makes sense.
Maybe you should take that advice for yourself as the rest of your comment was a complete logic fail.
IF you are correct and the attack by the other nations caused those refugees then they ARE Israelis who left in order to avoid being killed when foreign countries invaded their homeland. To deny them the right to return is not only immoral but also retarded.
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Maybe you should take that advice for yourself as the rest of your comment was a complete logic fail.
IF you are correct and the attack by the other nations caused those refugees then they ARE Israelis who left in order to avoid being killed when foreign countries invaded their homeland. To deny them the right to return is not only immoral but also retarded.
Not that I would be completely happy with Israel's actions, but I don't believe the refugees were either completely innocent. War time laws are crooked when thinking from the perspective of functioning democracy, but if there was a reason to suspect them collaborating with the enemy, they could as well have been shot. And some probably were. Digging through this is useless, and will not help anything on any direction.
Personally I'm of the opinion that founding the country on its present location was asking for trouble, but then again, the UN (a democratic system in itself, or at least should be) recognized it and then it has a right to exist. Whether the region becomes more peaceful when US help there is diminishing is another question.
I suppose the main argument here is that Israel says that if it ratified all the UN resolutions, it would effectively mean the disappearance of the nation. This is the thing that I consider that should be debated. Their stance regarding to this is actually grounded by the earlier experiences. And the bigger question is, what could be done?
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Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?
There are almost 2 million Palestinian refugees in Jordan and and 470 000 in Syria.
You know what? According to the Wikipedia, you're right. I did not know that - my bad.
It's interesting, however, that refugees that were granted Jordanian citizenship have had their citizenship revoked to prevent them from becoming permanent residents of Jordan. How thoughtful.
Here's something else from the Wikipedia article on Palestinian refugees:
According to writer and researcher Mudar Zahran, a Jordanian of Palestinian heritage, the media chose to deliberately ignore the conditions of the Palestinians living in Lebanese refugee camps, and that the "tendency to blame Israel for everything" has provided Arab leaders an excuse to deliberately ignore the human rights of the Palestinian in their countries.
Also, there's still the whole thing with them wanting to kill all the Jews, push us into the sea, etc etc... not exactly meeting the whole "live in peace with neighbors" clause of refugee return.
As for the debate on the events surrounding the formation of said refugees - I give up. I'd rather not waste my time debating with people who refuse to look at all the historical events that happened 50-100 years ago that have direct impact on the situation's legal and moral issues as they are today. Have fun blaming Israel for everything under the sun - we're used to it.
In case you actually do want to learn some about the history of things, here's some pointers:
- Look into the legality of Israel's formation; the League of Nations and UN declarations, etc. The video I posted earlier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVsjNzXojCM) is a great place to start, but don't just take what it says blindly - research the things it claims for yourself.
- Look into the wars that Israel has fought since 1948: who started them and why, who won, the lines that were drawn, etc.
If you find anything interesting, let me know.
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Ignores the points made by others. Complete driveby posting out of touch with the topic. Has it really come to that, Sandwhich?
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As for the debate on the events surrounding the formation of said refugees - I give up. I'd rather not waste my time debating with people who refuse to look at all the historical events that happened 50-100 years ago that have direct impact on the situation's legal and moral issues as they are today. Have fun blaming Israel for everything under the sun - we're used to it.
You've completely failed to make any logical argument over those events.
You've ignored anything anyone has posted that doesn't fit your argument, an argument which let's not forget is one YOU started. Everyone was talking about modern Israel until you waded in with posts about 1948 which were completely ignorant about the cause of the problem.
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Have fun blaming Israel for everything under the sun - we're used to it.
Ever wondered why that might be the case? 0_o.
Isreal is not blamed for everything under the sun, however. It does have a tendency to see itself as a completely rightious place whilst blaming everyone els for everything that happens under the sun. Although many people know that those 'everyone else' group is also quite responsible for all the misery, that does not mean Isreal is completely innocent. However, since we all agree on that 'everyone else' are also completely insane, nobody is discussing that here.