[Grizzly]

The blockade only prevents weapons from getting through, not humanitarian aid. Don't make connections between the weapons blockade and the crap living conditions in Gaza when there isn't one.

The UN appears to disagree. There's been some talk about it.

[karajorma]

Interesting how the report Sandwich posted bears little relation to the incident as reported by the BBC. I know that it's easier for Israeli news sources to find out the names of their own injured and killed in the incident but to completely miss out that several Egyptian policemen were killed in that raid into Egypt is rather strange.

Even the later report covering the withdrawal of the envoy is different.

[Mika]

Figures... not that I expect every single rocket to be reported world-wide, but an occasional "Rocket fire against southern Israeli towns continued unabated this month" article would be nice to see... 

In any case, QassamCount is the only place I could find that appears to report on every rocket fired... the recent activity was a rocket heading for Ashkelon that was intercepted by the Iron Dome 7 hours ago, 2 mortar shells 9 hours ago, 2 rockets 11 hours ago that weren't intercepted, another 2 Grad rockets 13 hours ago... the list goes on. When the barrage continues in such an intense, continual and unending fashion, no wonder the world media stops reporting on it. I can't really blame them... I just hope it helps some of you understand the situation here a bit better.

That's much more than I expected based on the news here! I was expecting a rocket or two in a month - that's the kind of idea you get here - but in those numbers, it's low level war.

[Sandwich]

And as long as Israel self-identifies as Jewish and for Jews, then you're not really a good posterboy for democracy either.

Maybe more democratic, but I wouldn't call that true democracy by any stretch.

Exactly the point I was about to make NGTM-1R. Arabs simply do not have the same rights as Jews in Israel so it's pretty hard to make the claim that it's a model of democracy for the rest of the Arab nations.

Democracy, by definition, is rule of the people. Israel faces an existential threat demographically because the Arab citizens of Israel have a higher birthrate on average than the Jewish citizens do. Nobody knows how this will end up being resolved.

And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF. Even so, many non-Jewish citizens of Israel, such as the Druze and Bedouins, choose to serve in the IDF of their own accord. I was friends with a number of them in my Combat Engineers company.

The blockade only prevents weapons from getting through, not humanitarian aid. Don't make connections between the weapons blockade and the crap living conditions in Gaza when there isn't one.

The UN appears to disagree. There's been some talk about it.

Did you read the beginning of that Wikipedia article? It's quite enlightening... here's some choice excerpts (emphasis and parenthetical comments mine):

The blockade of the Gaza Strip refers to a land, air, and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt since June 2007...

...Shortly after, in June [2007], Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in the course of the Battle of Gaza, seizing government institutions and replacing Fatah and other government officials with its own. Following the takeover, Egypt and Israel largely sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on the Palestinian side...

...Since 2007 Egypt and Israel largely keep their borders with the [Gaza] territory sealed. Israel limits humanitarian supplies from aid organizations into the Strip... (because Hamas often diverted said supplies for their own use, away from the people the supplies were intended for)

...Israel maintained that the blockade is necessary to limit Palestinian rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip on its cities and to prevent Hamas from obtaining other weapons....

In July 2011, the UN investigative committee for the 2010 Flotilla to Gaza said that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is legal.

So yes, while the blockade certainly isn't improving the quality of life in Gaza, neither is the constant rocket bombardment on southern Israeli towns and cities (none of which are in the "occupied territories"!).

Interesting how the report Sandwich posted bears little relation to the incident as reported by the BBC. I know that it's easier for Israeli news sources to find out the names of their own injured and killed in the incident but to completely miss out that several Egyptian policemen were killed in that raid into Egypt is rather strange.

Even the later report covering the withdrawal of the envoy is different.

Err, Israeli news sources had already covered that part. Occasionally, we're a bit quicker to cover these close-to-home stories than international news agencies, hard as that may be to believe.

The JP article I linked to was posted on August 19th at 11:53am (Israeli time; 9:53 GMT), but 2 hours earlier, at 9:45am (7:45am GMT), this article was posted, which reports on both the suicide bomber that killed a number of Egyptian soldiers at the Philadelphi Route border crossing, as well as the Egyptian security forces that were caught in the line of fire between the IDF and terrorists that were being chased. Then later that day, at 6:46pm (4:46pm GMT), the JP covered the Egyptian protest over the deaths of their security forces. Then, on the following day entirely, the BBC one you linked to was posted, on August 20th at 13:06 GMT, claiming the Israeli envoy was being recalled. An hour and a half later, JP posted 'Egyptian official denies ambassador to TA was recalled'.

All that to say, we'd covered it already; perhaps you should rely on local news sources for more timely and accurate information than globe-spanning mega-agencies can deliver.

That's much more than I expected based on the news here! I was expecting a rocket or two in a month - that's the kind of idea you get here - but in those numbers, it's low level war.

Indeed... and look at this and then this.

[karajorma]

Democracy, by definition, is rule of the people. Israel faces an existential threat demographically because the Arab citizens of Israel have a higher birthrate on average than the Jewish citizens do. Nobody knows how this will end up being resolved.

And right there you prove the racism inherent in the country. In a democratic country demographics shouldn't affect the right of the people to govern themselves as they see fit. What you're saying is that even if the Arabs do outnumber the Jews they should have less say in the religion and government of their country.

There is no possible way to justify that and claim that you have a fair and equal democracy.

And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF. Even so, many non-Jewish citizens of Israel, such as the Druze and Bedouins, choose to serve in the IDF of their own accord. I was friends with a number of them in my Combat Engineers company.

I'd suggest you read the article you just posted yourself as it has several examples of exactly the sort of thing I was on about.

Err, Israeli news sources had already covered that part. Occasionally, we're a bit quicker to cover these close-to-home stories than international news agencies, hard as that may be to believe.

I think you missed my point. My point was that any article on the BBC would have been balanced enough to have mentioned the incident involved several deaths over the Egyptian border regardless of whether or not they'd mentioned it earlier[/quote]

[NGTM-1R]

Democracy, by definition, is rule of the people. Israel faces an existential threat demographically because the Arab citizens of Israel have a higher birthrate on average than the Jewish citizens do. Nobody knows how this will end up being resolved.

The rule of the people is the rule of the people. Who those people are does not and should not matter.

You are, as Karaj put it, proving my point.

And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF. Even so, many non-Jewish citizens of Israel, such as the Druze and Bedouins, choose to serve in the IDF of their own accord. I was friends with a number of them in my Combat Engineers company.

Don't make me laugh. What of Israel's claim it's the only place Jews can get a fair trial in the world? Its common refusal to extradite its citizens to other countries? Its politics being dominated by right-wing Jewish groups?

It's not about rights; it's about privilege and who is granted it.

[Spoon]

I only keep up to date on the things in Israel through a monthly magazine called 'Israel today' so I can't really claim to know as much on the situation as Sandwich does. I find it really interesting to read some of your experiences and the things you've seen.

One thing I'd like to point out, however, is that every Arab village I've ever been in has been far below what a typical 3rd-world person would consider "average" living conditions (and please, I'm not trying to be "maliciously" racist, but to state facts as I've observed them). This includes not only the villages, towns, and cities under Palestinian Authority civic control in the West Bank that I've been through on patrol, but also the Israeli Arab neighborhoods just down the street from my house, here in Jerusalem - which are under the same civic rules, rights, and management as the other neighborhoods in Jerusalem. For whatever reasons, the Middle-East Arab culture or mindset appears to not place much value on cleanliness, rural upkeep, etc. There's litter all over the place (cans, bottles, and other garbage), half-built (or half-ruined) buildings seemingly in every 5th lot, pothole-strewn streets that might have been decently paved once...

This is something I've read and heard quite a few times from people visiting arab countries. Their cities always seem dirty and poorly maintained for some reason.

And right there you prove the racism inherent in the country. In a democratic country demographics shouldn't affect the right of the people to govern themselves as they see fit. What you're saying is that even if the Arabs do outnumber the Jews they should have less say in the religion and government of their country.

There is no possible way to justify that and claim that you have a fair and equal democracy.

A wonderful politically correct view that disregards reality. The reality being that there are several arabic (if not, the majority of them) shouting for the destruction of Israel for the longest of time now. 'a fair and equal democracy' doesn't really have a place in a country that is constantly fighting a war for survival. The Jewish people would be completely bonkers if they weren't looking out for themselves, because they sure as hell can't expect their friendly neighbors to play nice.

[NGTM-1R]

There is no possible way to justify that and claim that you have a fair and equal democracy.

A wonderful politically correct view that disregards reality.
[/quote]

He's speaking of Arabs who are citizens of Israel.

Full citizens, according to Sandwhich, of the state in question. Either their opinions carry equal weight as citizens or they don't. If their own citizenry should lose faith in their state, what right does it have to exist?

[karajorma]

Exactly. Sandwich claims that the Arabs who live in Israel and are Israeli citizens have no less rights than Jews who live there. He is of course speaking nonsense as it's pretty obvious that within a few years the Arabs will be the majority but yet will be living in a country that is somehow still a Jewish state.

[Scotty]

Exactly. Sandwich claims that the Arabs who live in Israel and are Israeli citizens have no less rights than Jews who live there. He is of course speaking nonsense as it's pretty obvious that within a few years the Arabs will be the majority but yet will be living in a country that is somehow still a Jewish state.

Israel was created as a Jewish state.  Its state religion is Judaism.  That will not change based on population demographic.  That does not affect rights in-country.

[karajorma]

Why shouldn't that change though? Suppose the Muslims eventually outnumber the Jews 10:1 or even 100:1 it should still stay a Jewish state?

And you're wrong. It does affect rights in the country. A Jew in Israel can marry a Jew anywhere else in the world and have them get Jewish citizenship. An Arab cannot. How can you possibly claim that isn't affecting someone's rights?

There are many more examples of that sort of thing BTW.

[Scotty]

Why shouldn't that change though? Suppose the Muslims eventually outnumber the Jews 10:1 or even 100:1 it should still stay a Jewish state?

Israel is a Jewish state, established as a homeland for the Jews.  BY DEFINITION, it will remain a Jewish state.  Unless you want to repeat the entire fiasco again in fifty or a hundred or two hundred years.

In other words, yes.  It should still stay a Jewish state.

[karajorma]

So basically when the Arabs get sick of having a minority dictate to them what religion their own country should be, they should have no option other than revolution in order to re-establish the country as something other than a Jewish state?

That's some really forwards thinking there!

[Grizzly]

*random, nvm*

[Spoon]

So are you basically saying that if the Arab countries cannot destroy Israel by force they should just destroy it by living in it and by becoming the majority? And the Jews should just let that happen... because?

[Mars]

. . . no, he's saying that Isreal is not really a democracy because it does not reflect the beliefs and opinions of its people. A secular state might be a good idea.

[Spoon]

Well that's what I am saying, there is no real place for a democracy of that kind in Israel.

[karajorma]

In which case Sandwich was wrong in his original statement that Israel is a good example of democracy to the rest of the middle east. Both NGMT-1R and myself challenged that view on the grounds that Israel grants one particular group of people more rights than others. Furthermore the argument that since Israel was founded as a Jewish state and therefore must always remain one is counter to his argument. The other countries surrounding Israel are mostly if not completely founded as Muslim states. If you want them to reject theocracy and go over to a secular system of government you certainly can't point at Israel as an example of this while it continues to have one rule for one religion (even when that religion is the minority) and one rule for everyone else.

And if you're going to claim that Israel should never be more secular, don't ever complain that the other countries of the Middle East should be.

[Grizzly]

Did you read the beginning of that Wikipedia article? It's quite enlightening... here's some choice excerpts (emphasis and parenthetical comments mine):

The blockade of the Gaza Strip refers to a land, air, and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt since June 2007...

...Shortly after, in June [2007], Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in the course of the Battle of Gaza, seizing government institutions and replacing Fatah and other government officials with its own. Following the takeover, Egypt and Israel largely sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on the Palestinian side...

...Since 2007 Egypt and Israel largely keep their borders with the [Gaza] territory sealed. Israel limits humanitarian supplies from aid organizations into the Strip... (because Hamas often diverted said supplies for their own use, away from the people the supplies were intended for)

...Israel maintained that the blockade is necessary to limit Palestinian rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip on its cities and to prevent Hamas from obtaining other weapons....

In July 2011, the UN investigative committee for the 2010 Flotilla to Gaza said that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is legal.

So yes, while the blockade certainly isn't improving the quality of life in Gaza, neither is the constant rocket bombardment on southern Israeli towns and cities (none of which are in the "occupied territories"!).].

Indeed. Yet still, the blockade is a significant factor, instead of not one at all.

[Sandwich]

*facepalm* Sorry for leaving this discussion for so long.

Democracy

My intention in stating the demographic issue Israel might face in the future, with the Israeli Arabs potentially outnumbering the Israeli Jews, is that because Israel is a democracy, arriving at a point where the Arab citizens outnumber the Jewish ones does conflict with Israel having been founded as a Jewish state. If Israel was a dictatorship, there wouldn't be a problem - the Arab citizens would eventually outnumber the Jewish citizens, but the government would be unaffected by this because "hey, who cares about the majority, we're a Jewish state!" But instead, we do have a democracy, where the majority of the people does decide who gets elected, and thus we might end up having a conflict between the democratic process, and the original intent behind Israel's foundation.

Let me be perfectly clear: I'm not saying that the original intent overrides the democratic process. I'm also not saying that the democratic process overrides the original intent. I don't know - nobody does (that I know of). That's why it's called a conflict - when two values have results that aren't in agreement with each other.

Citizenship

Now as to the claims that Israel isn't a proper/full/whatever democracy because of the rights of attaining citizenship:

A Jew in Israel can marry a Jew anywhere else in the world and have them get Jewish citizenship. An Arab cannot. How can you possibly claim that isn't affecting someone's rights?

Every democratic country has their own rules, regulations, and laws concerning the granting of citizenship. Take the US: we've all seen the "Live and Work in the US" banner ads hawking the Green Card lotteries. Why Green Cards if it's a democracy and anyone can become a citizen? Well, because there are certain rules in place that determine who can become a citizen and who can't.  Take note that the US has historically been more open to accepting the outcasts than most other nations, largely due to the circumstances of the US's founding (many colonists were fleeing from religious persecution, etc).

Back to Israel, which has it's own rules for allowing a person to become a citizen. In Israel's case, however, many rules are genealogically-based.  Take me, for example. My father is fully Jewish (by birth - I'm not talking about religion here at all). My mother isn't at all. Under the Law of Return, my parents and my brother and I all got citizenship (from the Wikipedia: "The Law of Return provides sanctuary to anyone covered by the definition under the Nuremberg Laws"). Since my father is Jewish, not my mother, I'm not considered Jewish by the State of Israel, and yet, when I married my also-not-Jewish American wife, she began the process of getting her citizenship here as well (the 5-year process is primarily to verify that it's a true marriage, and not just a paper marriage as a means to attaining citizenship).

Now, to the Israeli Arab side of things. After the Second Intifada, Israel passed the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, which "makes inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen." This law is hotly debated, considered by many to be racist, etc. Since it's geared towards preventing enemies of Israel from attaining Israel citizenship, I don't see it any different from the American citizenship test, where "The new test probes for signs that immigrants 'understand and share American values.'" If a nation isn't going to protect itself from being undermined from within by those who want it destroyed, what point is there in that nation existing?

Legality

Finally, the legality issue always comes up in these discussions. The 1967 borders (a.k.a. the Green Line, or the "border" of the West Bank), Jerusalem / East Jerusalem, etc. If you're interested in any of that, watch this video for some insight about the post-WWI San Remo conference and what it means for the legality of Israel and Palestine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVsjNzXojCM