Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on August 20, 2011, 04:45:24 pm

Title: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 20, 2011, 04:45:24 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14605391

This week has been amazing in the Libyan uprising, after months of stalemate the rebels have suddenly gone on the offensive, and looks like they might be getting ready to take the capitol.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 20, 2011, 05:01:03 pm
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/20/libya-gaddafi-tripoli-escape-reports?cat=world&type=article

There are reports/rumors gaddafi has fled.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: JCDNWarrior on August 20, 2011, 05:21:11 pm
It's a mess... I'm rather disgusted with the way Libya's being treated. They actually were developing out to be a very strong nation, their irrigation project, the gold Gadaffi owned, the oil that Libya posesses, don't believe for a second this is 'humanitarian' or 'liberation'. It's bombing rival countries to the stone age because you fear any form of resistance.

Also they've suggested many things about Gadaffi, like fleeing to Venezuela (another future target). This with the war drums against Iran and Syria...

And the rebels, most of them that i saw in the videos, be it on local TV here or CNN/ABC/RT/etc. are not even Libyans, they're European and even American. They're mercenaries, working for others - notice they set up a oil trading company and a central bank in the first weeks - combined with the reports of special forces on the ground destabilizing the area.

But hey, what to expect?

Libya was mentioned -by name- to be attacked by the government of the USA and NATO (Working for the goals of others above them) - another sign Obama is simple 'same as the old boss', the two party system just two sides of the same coin..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEJ6Aja-UQ

(I'm sorry but stuff like this, seeing how the globalists take down another country, and there are some people that cheer the death of more innocents because their country didn't sell out...)
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 20, 2011, 05:38:04 pm
It's a mess... I'm rather disgusted with the way Libya's being treated. They actually were developing out to be a very strong nation, their irrigation project, the gold Gadaffi owned, the oil that Libya posesses, don't believe for a second this is 'humanitarian' or 'liberation'. It's bombing rival countries to the stone age because you fear any form of resistance.

Also they've suggested many things about Gadaffi, like fleeing to Venezuela (another future target). This with the war drums against Iran and Syria...

And the rebels, most of them that i saw in the videos, be it on local TV here or CNN/ABC/RT/etc. are not even Libyans, they're European and even American. They're mercenaries, working for others - notice they set up a oil trading company and a central bank in the first weeks - combined with the reports of special forces on the ground destabilizing the area.

But hey, what to expect?

Libya was mentioned -by name- to be attacked by the government of the USA and NATO (Working for the goals of others above them) - another sign Obama is simple 'same as the old boss', the two party system just two sides of the same coin..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEJ6Aja-UQ

(I'm sorry but stuff like this, seeing how the globalists take down another country, and there are some people that cheer the death of more innocents because their country didn't sell out...)
You're seriously defending gaddafi's regime? Really? This was a textbook popular uprising that was sparked by the fervor created by the "Arab Spring."

Can you avoid ****ting up any thread with your conspiracy bull****? It's getting old fast.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Shade on August 20, 2011, 05:51:41 pm
Indeed. The Libyan people got the ball rolling. Yes, they are recieving outside assistence now, but they're the ones who decided they'd had enough of Gadaffi, they're the ones who asked, pleaded for that outside help, and they're still the ones doing the majority of the fighting. And helping them is the right thing to do.

My own country has fighter jets down there, and I'm glad they're there and doing what they can to help. In this case, it's something to be proud of. There are many times when something may not get done for various political reasons (see Syria - that place is just as bad now as Libya was prior to the intervention), or when something gets done for the wrong reasons (see Iraq), but Libya is a case where something is getting done, and getting done for the right reasons.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Nuke on August 20, 2011, 06:10:37 pm
i just hope they can assemble a new government without it becoming a corrupt bureaucracy or another dictatorship.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 20, 2011, 06:19:45 pm
i just hope they can assemble a new government without it becoming a corrupt bureaucracy or another dictatorship.
I hope so too. The real challenge comes when the battles are over. The UN is supposed to be providing oversight.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Scotty on August 20, 2011, 06:27:38 pm
i just hope they can assemble a new government without it becoming a corrupt bureaucracy or another dictatorship.

Nuke?  Appealing the better part of human nature?

This is supr srs gaise.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: headdie on August 20, 2011, 06:54:33 pm
To be fair theou, Libya is used to a strong willed dictator in power, there will be social and cultural fights that were suppressed before that could make the next decade of more very nasty if someone charismatic and acceptable to all cant be found to centre a new government around
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 20, 2011, 07:16:43 pm
...

can I ask, what makes you so sure that the Bilderbergs were not simply caught off guard by an actual popular uprising, and then ordered the Iluminati and the Free Masons to move their pupet governments into action, not because they truly wanted to lose their tool Gadafi, but because they were worried that if they did not act it might damage the carefully crafted image of supporting freedom that they have been crafting for the last 400 years to keep the population under control in preparation for the reptilians in the year 2013? it would be such a shame if they lost complete control over everyone because they showed their cards to early.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Luis Dias on August 20, 2011, 08:35:10 pm
Well at least JDCN picks up his ideas both at the left and at the right, and if you see the video, it is somewhat scary to think that the US was planning to invade 7 countries. I'd like more confirmation than one single general reading some paper in the tv.

My wife keeps telling me that the uprising in the arab world is US driven / manipulated / created by. I don't buy that theory because it contradicts the facts on the terrain, however it isn't that far out to say that the US has been in the dark making a lot of calls in the backstages. It is even most likely.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Unknown Target on August 20, 2011, 08:42:25 pm
Well just to throw my hat into the ring of "suspicious circumstances" for the Libya war, I know I'm not the only one that noticed the discrepancy in response times between Libya (which is where the UK and France get most of their oil, if I'm not mistaken) rebelling and subsequent NATO/UN action, vs. something that is a much greater humanitarian crisis, Syria, only now getting strong words from Obama for the country's leader to step down.

Plus the conduct of Obama in the Libya war has been rather unsettling, I heard some reports awhile ago that I'm pretty sure I confirmed with some reputable news sources that he was arguing with Congress that he doesn't need their permission to continue committing American resources to the conflict.

I'm not really trying to defend JCDNWarrior's theories, I'm just pointing out some things that I find rather dissatisfying with the whole affair.

That being said, has anyone watched the video he linked? I've seen it before. Does anyone have a response to it? Personally I don't think that the "Arab Spring" was planned or orchestrated by anyone outside of the rebels, but the plans that Wesley Clark refers to (whom I remember most everyone respecting during his tenure as the commander of CENTCOM) are curious - though I imagine the prime drivers behind them would be the now disgraced Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, etc., and thus I doubt they have continuance with the current state of affairs.

- Luis responded before I hit enter. I wrote a small paper awhile ago talking with my professor about the "success" of George W. for bringing democracy to the Middle East. It was just a theory, don't jump on me, but the idea was that maybe the exposure to US troops and whatnot created the distillation of the idea, though perhaps less so because people didn't think of it before and more so because people in the area saw one dictator topple and realized that it was possible? I'm not saying GWB or the US are particularly commendable in any of this, other than the idea that they toppled one dictator so again, others saw someone who was just sort of assumed to be "invulnerable" going down and questioned their assumptions of other dictators?

But really, what would US driven/manipulated revolutions look like? What does that even mean? The Pentagon has a program to send suitcases full of networking equipment to these areas so that people can set up local ad-hoc networks if their net access gets taken down. But other than that, what would US manipulation entail, really? I mean, besides the obvious ones like NATO supplying arms and suspected special forces operators in places like Libya.

I just don't see how these things could be "manipulated"; they're popular movements. Otherwise, what are they? That being said, I guess when it's all over and it comes time to pick the next leader, we'll see who comes out on top and how US friendly they are.

Also, anyone want to weigh in on Egypt's renewed protests?
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: StarSlayer on August 20, 2011, 09:07:26 pm
But really, what would US driven/manipulated revolutions look like? What does that even mean? The Pentagon has a program to send suitcases full of networking equipment to these areas so that people can set up local ad-hoc networks if their net access gets taken down. But other than that, what would US manipulation entail, really? I mean, besides the obvious ones like NATO supplying arms and suspected special forces operators in places like Libya.

The CIA used to be very proficient at this sorta crap back in the day, during the era when containing Communism overrode the foresight to see what would shake out after the Soviets crumbled.  The Shah of Iran and all the various dictator twats orchestrated in South America spring to mind.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Luis Dias on August 20, 2011, 09:11:26 pm
Yes I agree that the toppling of Sadam may have been a huge wake up call to a lot of people in these arab countries and say "wait a minute this is possible, these guys aren't immortal after all!" This was one of the arguments in favor to the iraq war.

Then we had the elections in Iran that was a kind of a test bed that was, IMO, a very enlightening experience. First, people learnt to use the new technologies in their favor. For the first time in history, people who preferred democracy inside a heavy dictatorship could speak to one another and join forces. The "green revolution" almost happened. Second, people learnt that toppling a government through democracy or street demonstrations wouldn't be enough. It would require a lot more preserverance and strenght, perhaps even go to war.

And then this year an utterly frustrated merchant put fire on himself, and it spread like wildfire. People say, "One person does not have that much of a power!", well yes and no forsure. The thing is, the terrain was flooded with gunpowder, all it needed was a slight spark, a tiny fuse.

And be aware, the iranians are watching. And learning. Iran's theocracy has its days numbered. I'll give them less than ten years (too many variables lol).
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 20, 2011, 09:12:47 pm
Well at least JDCN picks up his ideas both at the left and at the right, and if you see the video, it is somewhat scary to think that the US was planning to invade 7 countries. I'd like more confirmation than one single general reading some paper in the tv.

My wife keeps telling me that the uprising in the arab world is US driven / manipulated / created by. I don't buy that theory because it contradicts the facts on the terrain, however it isn't that far out to say that the US has been in the dark making a lot of calls in the backstages. It is even most likely.

The United States can't even manage its own finances, how do you suppose we're orchestrating all of these amazing revolutions across the middle east? We're not what we used to be during the Cold War.

...

I'd say the discrepancy between NATO action in Libya and Syria is mostly to blame on resource limitations. Nobody is going to get involved in a land war, and considering the financial situations the western world is facing right now, about all we can reasonably afford is supporting ~1 revolution at a time. :p Syria will probably get its protection, but the West isn't going to provide it any time soon. Maybe the Russians/China should step up to the plate for once.

I also think your theory of GWB bringing democracy to the middle east an interesting one. I'd thought of it before, and it makes a bit of sense. While neither Afghanistan or Iraq are shining beacons of peace and prosperity, the actions there shook up the pot, stirring everyone around. I doubt it was the direct intention, but the actions in those two countries have surely played a part, if even a tiny one, in the recent unrest.

Egypt never really revolted, and it has slipped into military rule. While I detest violence, the "revolution" was much too easy. The people protested, and all of a sudden the old guard's military is in power? That doesn't look right. I think that qualifies as, "here's the old boss, same as the old boss."
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 20, 2011, 09:17:47 pm
"the discrepancy in response times between Libya vs. Syria"

the difference is we were not already committed to supporting another rebellion when Libya needed us. go look back at the big Libya thread, you will see at some point someone asked, 'what do we do if another country needs the same thing, we cannot support an infinite number of these things' the response was something to the effect of 'just because we can't support every rebellion doesn't mean we shouldn't support any of them'. the reason for the difference is because Libya got there first, if Syria keeps on keeping on after our presence is no longer needed in Libya, then I have a feeling our CVBGs will be moving to the northeast a few hundred miles.

and Obama had to be drug into this fight kicking and screaming.

and the way a manipulated rebellion would look is exactly the same as how a natural rebellion that just happened to be ideologically compatible with our foreign policy would look like.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Luis Dias on August 20, 2011, 09:18:26 pm
The United States can't even manage its own finances, how do you suppose we're orchestrating all of these amazing revolutions across the middle east? We're not what we used to be during the Cold War.

For one, how can you possibly know this? Are you knowledgeable of the whereabouts of american agents?

For two, I'd say that america's reach on the world has never been higher, with so many countries being attacked / occupied.

Quote
I'd blame the discrepancy between NATO action in Libya and Syria is mostly to blame on resource limitations. Nobody is going to get involved in a land war, and considering the financial situations the western world is facing right now, about all we can reasonably afford is supporting ~1 revolution at a time. :p Syria will probably get its protection, but the West isn't going to provide it any time soon. Maybe the Russians/China should step up to the plate for once.

Russia and China won't, for obvious reasons, support a popular uprising. This is so utterly obvious that I don't know what you are smoking here :D.

Quote
Egypt never really revolted, and it has slipped into military rule. While I detest violence, the "revolution" was much too easy. The people protested, and all of a sudden the old guard's military is in power? That doesn't look right. I think that qualifies as, "here's the old boss, same as the old boss."

Lets see what happens. In Portugal we had the luck of our army being commanded by very enlightened generals when the revolution happened who were respected and drove our country to full blown democracy. It may be so that Egipt might not be so lucky.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 20, 2011, 09:27:54 pm
The United States can't even manage its own finances, how do you suppose we're orchestrating all of these amazing revolutions across the middle east? We're not what we used to be during the Cold War.

For one, how can you possibly know this? Are you knowledgeable of the whereabouts of american agents?

For two, I'd say that america's reach on the world has never been higher, with so many countries being attacked / occupied.

Quote
I'd blame the discrepancy between NATO action in Libya and Syria is mostly to blame on resource limitations. Nobody is going to get involved in a land war, and considering the financial situations the western world is facing right now, about all we can reasonably afford is supporting ~1 revolution at a time. :p Syria will probably get its protection, but the West isn't going to provide it any time soon. Maybe the Russians/China should step up to the plate for once.

Russia and China won't, for obvious reasons, support a popular uprising. This is so utterly obvious that I don't know what you are smoking here :D.

Quote
Egypt never really revolted, and it has slipped into military rule. While I detest violence, the "revolution" was much too easy. The people protested, and all of a sudden the old guard's military is in power? That doesn't look right. I think that qualifies as, "here's the old boss, same as the old boss."

Lets see what happens. In Portugal we had the luck of our army being commanded by very enlightened generals when the revolution happened who were respected and drove our country to full blown democracy. It may be so that Egipt might not be so lucky.
I don't know where our agents are, but I know it takes more than a handful of agents to start a revolution, unless the revolution was already festering amongst the populace to begin with. Government agents aren't supermen.

I know that Russia, stepping far out of its typical shoes, has actually condemned Assad's actions. While far from sending hardware, it sends a clear message. China has a vested interest in Africa and the Middle East. They are constantly looking for ways to edge into good energy/mineral deals. They probably won't do anything, but it would be nice if they did.

I don't know enough about the Egyptian generals to say for sure, but they seem like they're pretty comfortable with power in their hands. We'll see what happens though. I hope for the best, of course.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Luis Dias on August 20, 2011, 09:32:47 pm
Condemning Assad's actions and endorsing a "revolution", regime change or some other "change" is completely different. Russia will not support any change of the status quo into something that can be manipulated by the USA / Israel. And nowhere did I suggest that agents started the revolutions, so again you are smoking the real thing man ;).
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Shade on August 20, 2011, 09:43:38 pm
I know I'm not the only one that noticed the discrepancy in response times between Libya (which is where the UK and France get most of their oil, if I'm not mistaken) rebelling and subsequent NATO/UN action, vs. something that is a much greater humanitarian crisis, Syria, only now getting strong words from Obama for the country's leader to step down.

It's always easy to forget the details after proper conflic has begun, but as it happens, the UN was able to intervene only because the Arab League requested it, thereby making it difficult for countries like Russia or China to justify blocking a resolution. The league has made no such request regarding Syria, which makes it just about impossible to get a similar resolution to intervene in that mess. As for Obama only now talking about Assad stepping down, I don't know what's up with that - I do know that around here, they've been wanting him gone for months, and been vocal about it. Should a resolution miraculously happen, I have no doubt we'd be sending fighter jets there as well.

Also, let's not forget that Obama wasn't exactly the leading figure when it came to Libya. It was Cameron and Sarkozy who more or less dragged him into it, and the French were the first to deploy aircraft there.

As for the oil angle, I have only one thing to say. What the hell? Seriously, did you miss the whole last five years or so? Prior to the uprising, Libya as an oil exporter was stable and by and large non-belligerant towards the UK and France, Gaddafi was well on his way to rehabilitating his country's international relations, and, in the name of stability and political expediency, everyone was pretty much willing to look the other way when faced with the various minor atrocities inflicted on the Libyan people. In short, as far as energy security goes, the worst thing France and the UK could have done was to get involved in Libya. If they'd just kept looking the other way when minor atrocities became major atrocities, everything would be fine and, hell, Gadaffi would probably be grateful to boot.

Also, as an aside, the oil market doesn't work that way - You don't go down to the market and browse around various booths of "Libyan Oil", "Saudi Oil", "Norwegian Oil" etc., you simply buy a type of oil and that's it. The oil market is better compared to a big pool which every oil-exporting nation contributes to, and which buyers then tap into. So from the buyer's viewpoint, it actually matters relatively little whether one oil-exporting country might not like you or not, or even refuse to trade with you altogether. From your point of view, you're still just buying from a large pool, even if a small corner of it is off-limits. And at any rate, until a couple years ago, the UK was a net exporter of oil, thanks to their extensive north sea oil fields. These days they're having to import a bit, but it is still a pittance compared to what is locally extracted.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 20, 2011, 09:50:32 pm
Condemning Assad's actions and endorsing a "revolution", regime change or some other "change" is completely different. Russia will not support any change of the status quo into something that can be manipulated by the USA / Israel. And nowhere did I suggest that agents started the revolutions, so again you are smoking the real thing man ;).

I never implied Russia supported the change of the regime. Syria and Russia have enjoyed good relations. It is worth noting that Russia condemning the actions of Assad are tantamount to saying "OK NATO, do whatever the **** you want." All I'm trying to say is that it would be nice to see someone else step up and help. Never said it would be all that realistic. I do believe they are participating in/supporting sanctions though.

While you may not imply that you feel we are starting the revolutions, you do imply that we hold a tight grip on things. Your wife seems to think that we have started these revolutions, and you disagree, which is good. I was just answering your comment about my knowledge of the whereabouts of our agents. I misunderstood who was implying we were orchestrating revolutions. I was only pointing out that our government agents aren't that special.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Nuke on August 21, 2011, 12:11:46 am
i just hope they can assemble a new government without it becoming a corrupt bureaucracy or another dictatorship.

Nuke?  Appealing the better part of human nature?

This is supr srs gaise.

peaceful countries are easy to nuke.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Black Wolf on August 21, 2011, 01:55:54 am
The other big difference in Libya vs. Syria is that the Libyan rebels were significantly better organized and further advanced when help finally arrived. There was a concrete group of people who could act as a partner on the ground. AFAIK, there's no equivalent in Syria - it's a mass of popular anger, but it's neither organized nor successful enough yet to serve that same role. Western air forces can't just bomb stuff unless they can be sure that there'll be someone there to take advantage of it.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: BrotherBryon on August 21, 2011, 02:07:41 am
It's a mess... I'm rather disgusted with the way Libya's being treated. They actually were developing out to be a very strong nation, their irrigation project, the gold Gadaffi owned, the oil that Libya posesses, don't believe for a second this is 'humanitarian' or 'liberation'. It's bombing rival countries to the stone age because you fear any form of resistance.

Also they've suggested many things about Gadaffi, like fleeing to Venezuela (another future target). This with the war drums against Iran and Syria...

And the rebels, most of them that i saw in the videos, be it on local TV here or CNN/ABC/RT/etc. are not even Libyans, they're European and even American. They're mercenaries, working for others - notice they set up a oil trading company and a central bank in the first weeks - combined with the reports of special forces on the ground destabilizing the area.

But hey, what to expect?

Libya was mentioned -by name- to be attacked by the government of the USA and NATO (Working for the goals of others above them) - another sign Obama is simple 'same as the old boss', the two party system just two sides of the same coin..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEJ6Aja-UQ

(I'm sorry but stuff like this, seeing how the globalists take down another country, and there are some people that cheer the death of more innocents because their country didn't sell out...)

Dude what the hell are you smoking and where can I get some because that is the dumbest argument over this whole thing I have ever heard.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Nemesis6 on August 21, 2011, 04:59:36 am
I'm kind of sad now, because soon, Gaddafi won't be producing any more of his hilarious rants. But maybe he has a few tricks left up his sleeve... we'll see.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Luis Dias on August 21, 2011, 05:26:38 am
Yeah I mean come to think of it that's really sad.


...
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 21, 2011, 11:37:10 am
While Black Wolf et. al. make good points (better points then this one), there is an economic reason for why we got involved in Libya so early.

Libya sits next to some of the world's major shipping lanes and had the wherewithal to close them to unescorted commercial traffic. We've been down this particular path once, during the Tanker War in the '80s, and there's no reason to believe Mr. Q/K/G wouldn't go the Saddam or Khomeini route and attempt to hold world commerce hostage for support. Better to take away the option before he thinks to exercise it.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2011, 11:47:37 am
I'm kind of sad now, because soon, Gaddafi won't be producing any more of his hilarious rants. But maybe he has a few tricks left up his sleeve... we'll see.

don't worry assuming he goes to the hague there will be plenty more rants to confuse and infuriate us all.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: headdie on August 21, 2011, 11:50:22 am
I'm kind of sad now, because soon, Gaddafi won't be producing any more of his hilarious rants. But maybe he has a few tricks left up his sleeve... we'll see.

don't worry assuming he goes to the hague there will be plenty more rants to confuse and infuriate us all.

BBC news also said something about that the rebels believing he has a plane on standby and a lack of inclination to stop him if he makes a runner
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2011, 03:42:09 pm
except their is a no fly zone in effect, so if he does that his plane will get shot down.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: headdie on August 21, 2011, 03:55:46 pm
So NATO/UN fighters are going to shoot down a Gulf Stream or a commercial airliner just because they suspect he is on board?
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 21, 2011, 04:13:46 pm
So NATO/UN fighters are going to shoot down a Gulf Stream or a commercial airliner just because they suspect he is on board?

They'll all but certainly force it down. Besides, where will he go? South? Chad will shoot them down and enjoy it. North? Intercepted and forcibly escorted to an Italian or French airport. East? Don't think the Egyptians will enjoy his company. West? Similarly not going to enjoy his company.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2011, 04:14:06 pm
just because their is a no fly zone, and it would be flying.

so his only options at this point are space, or living with the mole men, though I doubt they would be enjoying his presence much either.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: headdie on August 21, 2011, 04:18:38 pm
just because their is a no fly zone, and it would be flying.

International legal minefield not to mention the situation it sets up, what would be the different between the colonels plane being shot down by UN/Nato and the colonel or Iran or N Korea shooting down Airforce 1? and if you go on about the US being able to squash a country then you are badly missing the point because the president would still be dead.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Scotty on August 21, 2011, 05:30:59 pm
just because their is a no fly zone, and it would be flying.

International legal minefield not to mention the situation it sets up, what would be the different between the colonels plane being shot down by UN/Nato and the colonel or Iran or N Korea shooting down Airforce 1? and if you go on about the US being able to squash a country then you are badly missing the point because the president would still be dead.

Are you kidding me?  Three words that have already been repeated several times in this thread: NO FLY ZONE.  If it flies, it gets taken out of the air, peaceably or otherwise.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2011, 06:01:10 pm
yeah, what he said, that is an important difference.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 21, 2011, 07:11:25 pm
Two of Gadhafi's sons have been arrested by the rebels according to them. The Associated Press is claiming organized resistance to the rebels in Tripoli never materialized.

It appears to be effectively over.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2011, 07:55:51 pm
it's not over till they find the loud fuzzy haired one.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 21, 2011, 07:57:08 pm
it's not over till they find the loud fuzzy haired one.

I'd almost rather he not be found so we can hear his take on "Libya Without Me".
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2011, 08:28:54 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/22/libyan-rebels-push-into-tripoli

My reaction: "Oh My... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ALsvU50wQ)"
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 21, 2011, 08:56:20 pm
oh, and in responce to the earlier comments about Syria, http://globalvoicesonline.org/2011/08/21/arab-world-assad-you-are-next-after-gaddafi/
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Mongoose on August 21, 2011, 09:46:16 pm
Well that was fast.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: JCDNWarrior on August 22, 2011, 01:05:41 am
The story here is getting stranger, as now I keep seeing two completely different stories - One that the rebels gave up in Misrata as was predicted a few weeks ago and that the rebels aren't actually in Tripoli aside from sporadic fire, and this.

Still, whatever happens, I don't understand anyone can be happy with the events that are going on there. Gadaffi is not the best guy but he was a stable ruler and didnt pocket all it's money for himself like many African nations with puppet governments, and certainly is not as bad as what's going to happen next to the country. Rape, pillage, burn, it's the same thing all over again, and another country in ruins. History repeats itself again and again.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 22, 2011, 03:14:10 am
cool story :yes:
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: headdie on August 22, 2011, 05:07:24 am
just because their is a no fly zone, and it would be flying.

International legal minefield not to mention the situation it sets up, what would be the different between the colonels plane being shot down by UN/Nato and the colonel or Iran or N Korea shooting down Airforce 1? and if you go on about the US being able to squash a country then you are badly missing the point because the president would still be dead.

Are you kidding me?  Three words that have already been repeated several times in this thread: NO FLY ZONE.  If it flies, it gets taken out of the air, peaceably or otherwise.

No Fly zones apply to armed military craft, shooting down a civilian plane is just a illegal as sinking a civilian ship
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Nemesis6 on August 22, 2011, 05:45:03 am
The story here is getting stranger, as now I keep seeing two completely different stories - One that the rebels gave up in Misrata as was predicted a few weeks ago and that the rebels aren't actually in Tripoli aside from sporadic fire, and this.

The story you see is one dreamt up by the regime, which was the part that claimed that the rebels had lost Misrata. I'm amazed that you believe them, though. As far as not being in Tripoli goes, are you even reading the news? O_o
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: JCDNWarrior on August 22, 2011, 06:20:24 am
Given the sudden turn around it looks as if NATO has finally landed it's troops as they have been preparing to do for months because the rebels may have been losing. It wouldn't be surprising, but really, no one knows what's going on right now, the war against Libya is in full swing and truth is the first victim (90% of war is an information war). Reminiscent of Stalingrad 'Don't resist, Russians, you have already lost, we will treat you better than your leaders'.

Will have to wait until the smoke clears to see what's -actually- happening there. Nonetheless it's nothing good.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 22, 2011, 06:50:05 am
or, maybe BBC or CNN know, or perhaps the thousands of Libyans tweeting about what's happening know, but I'm sure you are right, the reptilian armies are responsible for this, and they are eating babies too. I love how you alone in the world have access to the 'truth' and are not being manipulated by 'the man' and this somehow has you supporting a guy who had been bombing and turning AAA guns and ordering the mass rape of his own people as if he were some sort of Willie Wonka ruler of the country who has spent the last 40 years making the river's flow chocolate. I mean there is unanimous reporting of the rebels marching into town unopposed with the residence celebrating the end of Qaddafi's long and bloody reign of terror, by every news outlet in existence including the crowd-source outlet of the individuals living there, and yet you are able to see through all of this and know it's all just lies by the man, you know the truth some guy on ATS is telling it like it is and the rest of the information that doesn't go along with it is just disinformation. you know the truth is there is no Libya, there never has same thing for the entire continent of Africa and Eurasia, all the people on this board who say they are from the UK, they are all in on it, it's all just a trick to distract you from the slender man conspiracy taking over the real white house on the moon.

you sir, need to simmer down, take a deep breath, and ask yourself, if this were the case what would happen, what would not happen, and you need to see what things fall closer to what does happen, if your predictions turn out to be faulty, then you need to abandon the basis of those predictions. in short, try to be less cray, and try to live in reality.

anyway 8/10, good job on keeping it up to such an extreme while maintaining a believable composure.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: StarSlayer on August 22, 2011, 09:50:42 am
I dunno about Libyans receiving psychedelic laced coffee like "The Colonel" proclaimed, but I think JCDN sure does.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Scotty on August 22, 2011, 10:21:48 am
just because their is a no fly zone, and it would be flying.

International legal minefield not to mention the situation it sets up, what would be the different between the colonels plane being shot down by UN/Nato and the colonel or Iran or N Korea shooting down Airforce 1? and if you go on about the US being able to squash a country then you are badly missing the point because the president would still be dead.

Are you kidding me?  Three words that have already been repeated several times in this thread: NO FLY ZONE.  If it flies, it gets taken out of the air, peaceably or otherwise.

No Fly zones apply to armed military craft, shooting down a civilian plane is just a illegal as sinking a civilian ship

If the 'civilian' plane does not return hails or comply with directions to land, it's classified as a valid target.  As it should be.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Luis Dias on August 22, 2011, 11:42:16 am
Come on guys, JDCN is just voicing the unexistent Tripoli Bob. "Thaar ain no tanks in Tripoli! Itz all a lieee!"

It's all for our entertainment really. Good job JCDN!
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 22, 2011, 12:38:40 pm
Pretty much all the international news agencies are locked in the same hotel and reporting that heavy fighting is ongoing near them. (A couple of reports mention stray rounds hitting the hotel.)
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: JCDNWarrior on August 22, 2011, 02:22:54 pm
I never meant to suggest that, I meant that there wasn't much known at the time of my post. Right now it's a clear fact that Tripoli has been conquered and the 'rebels' and NATO won. I'm more concerned with civilian casualties, the state of their economy, and how a nation that actually became really wealthy has been crushed with no idea if it's ever going to recover.
In part it looks like a repeat of Iraq, it's possible it'll be occupied by NATO and US forces for a decade or longer to come to 'keep the peace'. And Iraq isn't particularly free or rebuilt 7-8 years after the invasion, but rather very dependent and still very de-stabilized. That doesn't mean I like or support Saddam or Gadaffi, but compared to what's happened and happening now these dictators were actually a better alternative, which is a strange thing to have to say.

A little detail from Reuters that might be interesting:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/29/us-libya-usa-intelligence-idUSTRE72S43P20110329

Or the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576237042432212406.html

And even the CFR's own statements:

http://www.cfr.org/libya/libya-now-needs-boots-ground/p25683?cid=soc-Twitter-in-Libya-boots_on_ground-082211

Nonetheless, I don't really like to even have to discuss these subjects, i'd rather focus on more positive stuff, but you guys will be greatly affected by everything that's going on in the subjects i've brought up. The world's more complex and it's events better documented than CNN or BBC is able to report on, and there's many mainstream sources that bring up the more complex and different side of the situation. I don't understand why subjects should be ignored or simply believed without looking at the other side of things.

As such I'll let the subject be for now as the Battle of Tripoli is over and I've said my piece on it all, we'll see what happens in the end.

Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 22, 2011, 02:24:39 pm
Get out.

You can't even read tenses in the actual links you're providing.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 22, 2011, 02:52:19 pm
(http://forum.i3d.net/attachments/counter-strike-source/943222736d1297790719-i3d-server-do-you-play-most-css-not-sure-if-troll-just-very-stupid.jpg)
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 22, 2011, 04:21:30 pm
JCDN; 10/10 you really had me going there.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Flipside on August 23, 2011, 11:01:32 am
Why is it that whenever I hear Saif Al-Islam giving a press conference I keep hearing the phrase 'There are no Allied Tanks in Baghdad....' in my head? ;)
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 23, 2011, 12:01:51 pm
Rebels have taken Gadhafi's compound. He was not apparently in residence. Reporters from CNN and a couple of Arab networks have been escorted around the compound by rebel forces.

Waiting on the bizarre, otherworldly pronouncements of the former government of Libya regarding this.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 23, 2011, 03:14:28 pm
Waiting on the bizarre, otherworldly pronouncements of the former government of Libya regarding this.
THE REBELS HAVE WALKED INTO OUR TRAP
(http://fredwillemse.com/joomla15/images/stories/mininformation.jpg)
ENEMIES OF LIBYA WILL BE SQUASHED
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Mongoose on August 23, 2011, 04:05:34 pm
I miss that guy. :(
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Shade on August 23, 2011, 04:14:48 pm
Yeah. He ought to have a TV show of some kind, or hire himself out to dictators in need of someone to tell the world that everything's fine and the enemies will be crushed. Apparently, even the new Iraqi governement considered him harmless and amusing, because unlike the rest of Saddam's gang who generally got the good old short drop and sudden stop treatment, this guy is now living in the UAE and never even spent time in prison except for a short stint in some brig after his initial capture :p
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 23, 2011, 04:51:02 pm
He gave an interview after the war, but the fire had gone out it seemed. Simple yes-or-no answers, no elaboration.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 23, 2011, 06:45:15 pm
he should do commercials.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Ghostavo on August 23, 2011, 06:54:08 pm
Quote
There are no promotions in <insert store name>!
Don't believe them!
This is silly! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXl1GkWWGmA)
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 24, 2011, 10:03:42 am
As I sit here on the toilet I wonder; might Libya try to join NATO at some point after this?
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Grizzly on August 24, 2011, 10:27:14 am
Libya is not 'north' enough :P.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 24, 2011, 11:23:14 am
Apparently they were, or are, already part of the Mediterranean Dialogue.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 24, 2011, 12:54:51 pm
Libya is not 'north' enough :P.
nor is it Atlantic enough
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 24, 2011, 05:04:23 pm
Libya is not 'north' enough :P.
nor is it Atlantic enough

It probably could, to be honest. Turning the Mediterranean into a NATO lake would be in the alliance's interests, and Egypt/Libya have always been the traditional obstacles to doing so.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Kosh on August 25, 2011, 08:49:13 am
Libya is not 'north' enough :P.
nor is it Atlantic enough

It probably could, to be honest. Turning the Mediterranean into a NATO lake would be in the alliance's interests, and Egypt/Libya have always been the traditional obstacles to doing so.

How would it be beneficial?
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 25, 2011, 01:57:33 pm
How would it be beneficial?

How would it not? You get one more person on your side of the table in the event of Bad Things, one of your major members doesn't have to worry about Sicily and Naples getting spontaneously shot up, and your southern flank will now be as secure as it can be made.

For Libya it is an effective means of assuring that the EU and the US have a vested interest in the prosperity and stability of their nation, as well as assurance against opportunistic or unstable neighbors who might want to export their problems; Chad comes to mind.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Grizzly on August 25, 2011, 03:01:50 pm
Doesn't an alliance also become more unstable once more countries are a part of it, as more parties might have opposing interests?
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Nemesis6 on August 25, 2011, 05:31:13 pm
They just found Gaddafi's photoalbum, full of pictures of Condoliza Rice:

(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110825-condi-moammar-da-03.photoblog900.jpg)
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110825-condi-moammar-da-02.photoblog900.jpg)
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Mars on August 25, 2011, 05:59:35 pm
Well. . . that's not creepy at all. . .
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Sololop on August 25, 2011, 08:03:09 pm
at first I thought it was 'shooped.

Too bad I was wrong.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: karajorma on August 25, 2011, 09:44:07 pm
Anyone got a link to the news story that's from?
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: achtung on August 26, 2011, 12:56:14 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/25/gaddafi-condoleezza-rice-album-_n_936385.html
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 26, 2011, 05:45:31 am
O Muammar, Muammar!
Wherefore art thou Muammar?

 :lol:
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 26, 2011, 12:38:48 pm
O Muammar, Muammar!
Wherefore art thou Muammar?

 :lol:

I dunno, I think it'd be better as a version of "Where In The World is Carmen San Diego."
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Grizzly on August 26, 2011, 04:47:07 pm
O Muammar, Muammar!
Wherefore art thou Muammar?

 :lol:

I dunno, I think it'd be better as a version of "Where In The World is Carmen San Diego."

First assignment: Find his tent.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Nemesis6 on August 29, 2011, 08:41:29 am
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/08/28/libya.gadhafi.nanny/index.html?iref=NS1

Warning: Not for the faint of heart. Apparently, political dissidents are not the only ones that the Gaddafi cronies aren't very nice to. This woman had scolding hot water poured on her after she disobeyed Hannibal Gaddafi.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Bobboau on August 29, 2011, 05:59:58 pm
I cannot believe he was actually named that.

I mean who the **** names their kid "Hannibal"
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Flipside on August 29, 2011, 06:38:11 pm
It depends on your perspective, I would have thought, after all, I'm sure the same could be said about calling your child 'Richard' from the perspective of the Middle East ;)

The problem is, most people in the West think of Hannibal Lecter, not the very succesful Carthaginian general ;)
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: karajorma on August 29, 2011, 06:52:29 pm
Exactly. Given the location of Carthage it's not that weird a name.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Kosh on August 29, 2011, 11:46:46 pm
Doesn't change the fact that he's evil. If he isn't dead already it will be good riddance when he does die.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: redsniper on August 30, 2011, 12:00:22 am
Er... well.... One's name doesn't make them good or evil. I think the point was just that it's not as ludicrous of a name over there as it would be over here.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: karajorma on August 30, 2011, 02:59:01 am
Meanwhile.....

http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2011/08/29/downtown-tripoli-drag-scene-welcomes-highly-unconvincing-newcomer/

:lol:
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Kosh on August 30, 2011, 06:02:38 am
Er... well.... One's name doesn't make them good or evil. I think the point was just that it's not as ludicrous of a name over there as it would be over here.


I wasn't referring to the name.
Title: Re: The Battle of Tripoli
Post by: Grizzly on August 30, 2011, 06:13:09 am
Loyalist perspective (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/world/africa/30loyalist.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1)