Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: TrashMan on October 28, 2011, 03:38:43 am
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And was just beneath the new Batman.
Held second place for a while, before the haloween sale kicked in.
About time for Kerberos to get the recongnition they deserve! YAY! :D
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That's good news, but will just be because it releases this week you know.
Can't wait though :D
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It's already done ? Can't wait to play it :) Yay
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It's already done ? Can't wait to play it :) Yay
We-elll.... Done with a Kerberos Game is a bit of an elusive goal, but done enough for release, yes. I imagine it will enjoy the same level of post release patching and expansioning as SotS1 though - Not that I am complaining, indeed, I look forward to the game evolving as it goes along :)
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Man, I'm still on the edge whether I should get this or not. I think I'll wait for reviews in any case.
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I have faith in Kerberos. They've really aimed high with SoTS 2, and everything has transformed so much since the original game into something amazing. Looking forward to longs hauls as the Humans, Tarka and Zuul :D
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I got steam open and keep klicking on Sots2... lemme install it already dangit! release release! :)
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The game unlocks in about 5 hours. Argh, should I get it immediately or wait...
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The game unlocks in about 5 hours. Argh, should I get it immediately or wait...
Played the first one to death with a couple of friends. OF COURSE I am getting the 2nd one right away. ;)
Even if it sucks I do wanna find out for myself. ;)
Aside from that reviews suck anyways and reviews of space strategy games even more... even Homeworld 2 barely got some 60% in the games magazine i used to read back then LOL.
Frankly... as bad as the review business is today a "rating" nowadays is propably more usefuly to determine the genre of a game than its quality. :p
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Well, I bought it a few hours ago. Not that the pre-order bonus is any good (i don't care for insignias and so), but I still am desperate and wait for Steam to unlock. And you guys better wait downloading before I had it, don't you dare blocking the server bandwidth :P
Regarding Previews. Never can Magazines meet everyones wishes. I had good fun with Sot1, and the second one wont be worse I guess. Plus it has a few nifty graphic updates :) Should keep me busy for a while.
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Well, I bought it a few hours ago. Not that the pre-order bonus is any good (i don't care for insignias and so), but I still am desperate and wait for Steam to unlock. And you guys better wait downloading before I had it, don't you dare blocking the server bandwidth :P
Regarding Previews. Never can Magazines meet everyones wishes. I had good fun with Sot1, and the seconds wont be worse I guess. Plus it has a few nifty graphics :) Should keep me busy for a while.
I most certainly will hog every single byte/s that I can .... mwahahahahah.
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Just bought it. I hope it's money well spent. :nervous:
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**** it, I just cancelled my order, I hope I get my money back. The game is DX 10 only, so no playing SOTS2 for poor Starman :sigh: :sigh:
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Time to upgrade?
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Now more than ever :banghead: I was already thinking about a new CPU and GPU, and in that case a new PC and OS too. I'm just a little worried with W7, that so many of my precious games wont run anymore. And I don't know how to setup a dualboot, I first had to check that out.....
Which W7 version is recommandable ? I guess there are more ? I just need a basic game platform, which can access my WLAN for Internet....
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Home Premium x64. Realistically speaking, that's all a normal gamer needs. Also, those old games will probably run just as well under 7 as they did under XP.
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Now more than ever :banghead: I was already thinking about a new CPU and GPU, and in that case a new PC and OS too. I'm just a little worried with W7, that so many of my precious games wont run anymore. And I don't know how to setup a dualboot, I first had to check that out.....
Which W7 version is recommandable ? I guess there are more ? I just need a basic game platform, which can access my WLAN for Internet....
Home Premium x64, and W7 runs my old games with less faffing around than XP needed.
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Hm, costs 90,- bucks :doubt:
My current rig is two years old, I suppose I don't have to be afraid that I run into other problems ? What's with all my harddrives, format in standard XP ntfs ? Are they readable, when W7 is 64 bit ?. There is too much data on them.
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Of course they are.
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Well, in that case, I guess I will order my W7 today. Shouldn't be too hard to create dualboot, if it turns out necessary. But as long as my other games run, it's fine. Damnit, but that means I cannot play SOTS2 this weekend. Oh, the humanity, this is so cruel :banghead: :p
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Does your video card support DX10?
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1 hour on Steam, 1 hour!!!
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I look forward to how terrible it turns out to be out of the box.
Besides, it's not like anyone really thinks MW3 is going to be any good, so beating it's not much of an achievement.
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I could swear Steam just pushed SotS release timer back four hours.
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Does your video card support DX10?
I guess, or at least hope so. Radeon HD 5670
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Yeah, that's on the safe side.
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OK, thank you guys. I'm going to the store tomorrow and getting myself a copy of W7 home premium 64b. No response from steam though, I already cancelled :( If they aren't reacting fast enough, and my upgrade works, then I will download it. Anyway, since I polluted that thread, feel free to move, remove or delete my comments that are not really belonging here :)
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I could swear Steam just pushed SotS release timer back four hours.
Yep, that's what happened. http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2206549
Edit: SotS2 is now available on Steam!
Edit2: Now installed and playing!
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I could swear Steam just pushed SotS release timer back four hours.
Valve Timer.
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There's a Song of the South video game?
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SOTS2 available on GamersGate....90kb/s download....looks like everyone and their grandmother is downloading.
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Well good and bad news: The current build on steam is an accidentially uploaded beta build (even has a "b" in the version number).
I.e. crashes galore. New build supposedly to be uploaded "soon". Poor guys on the Kerb forums said they were on hour 50 in the office LOL.
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sounds like crunch is still in full swing. Who set their schedule?
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Well good and bad news: The current build on steam is an accidentially uploaded beta build (even has a "b" in the version number).
I.e. crashes galore. New build supposedly to be uploaded "soon". Poor guys on the Kerb forums said they were on hour 50 in the office LOL.
Oh yeah. Somebody screwed up the pooch in this launch. First Steam pushes release back by about 35 minutes (gasp!) and then it's the beta version and not final. In any case, the final is now downloadable in Steam. I wonder if other online retailers had beta or final.
SOTS2 available on GamersGate....90kb/s download....looks like everyone and their grandmother is downloading.
Hah, getting 1.2 - 1.4 MB/sec off from Steam. :p
Edit: Well, SotS2 did update but it looks like it's yet another beta version and not final. Seriously? *shakes head in utter disappointment*
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Does your video card support DX10?
I guess, or at least hope so. Radeon HD 5670
Thats the same that I have - It can run DX11.
It can run Deus Ex on DX11 with everything on 'normal' and with MLAA on for me.
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Eh?
Finished uploading from gamesgate...installed....once that installations finished, it auto-boots steam and continues to "update" from there....6 hours to go...
Some crazy system....and some crazy traffic for this game.
Also, Kerberos forums seem to be down because of all the activity.
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Well, I just played the game a few hours, and I don't even know for sure if this is actually the final version or if they uploaded another beta. But anyway.
- All other screens such as ship design, build, research, encyclopedia open up quickly. But returning to starmap takes way too long.
- Once game has progressed to a point where there are combats, you get combat simulation screen for each and every combat regardless of whether they are within your sensor range or not. So you have to wait for battles to finish that take place in the other side of the galaxy when you're just up to turn 5. At least there is automatic time acceleration that speeds it up, but it is still extremely stupid because when you have a lot of combats in single turn, getting back to your own turn takes friggin' forever.
- It seems as if they kept sounds/voices from SotS. Urgh, my ears.
- Ship design UI is crap. They apparently tried to make it more interactive with this UI design, but it is horrible when it comes down to usability.
- SotS UI was faster, more intuitive and easier to learn. In SotS2 I had to look up the help menu for tips like how to move my fleets.
In short. The UI is worse than in SotS and there's way too much waiting, waiting and then some more waiting.
This better be another beta and not final. If this is final version of the game, this is very disappointing. There seems to be a good game under all this. but they really should have spent more time on making user experience better.
I have yet to make it to my first combat because I got tired of all this waiting. I want to play and not fiddle my thumbs waiting for my turn or getting back to starmap dammit.
Edit: As Kerberos forums aren't working, I'm pointing you to Steam forums instead to read list of bugs of current build that is available in Steam.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2208346
All I can say is, goddammit.
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I have yet to make it to my first combat because I got tired of all this waiting. I want to play and not fiddle my thumbs waiting for my turn or getting back to starmap dammit.
Start on the map "Fight" and you can have combat in turn 2. Still dabbling around myself... but the actual combat looks very promising. Tons of new options like rolling ship, limited 3d movement (3 combat planes), detailled damage values on each ship, combat sensors that show the whole system with its planets, etc.
The strategic UI does not... look that great, especially not compared to Sots1, as you yourself pointed out. Strategic mode also has its improvements however, most visibly that you now have real star systems with planets in each jump node, which is a huge improvement from Sots1. Aside from that the number of crash/showstopper bugs appears to be still prohibitive in this build.
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Someone dropped the ball big time.
I have no doubt it will all get sorted out, but ....dayum...
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Aside from that reviews suck anyways and reviews of space strategy games even more... even Homeworld 2 barely got some 60% in the games magazine i used to read back then LOL.
Except that's actually pretty spot on for Homeworld 2, the campaign was terrible, with poor map design and even worse story/plot, balance was pretty poor too, all you ever needed to do was just mass battlecruisers, which the AI loved to do when you just started building your third destroyer.
Really, all it is is a good modding platform.
I might try SOTS II when it gets cheaper, cause honestly, I'm poor as dirt atm.
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I do believe I have called this ****.
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On the other hand, in game development as in life, sometimes there are times when the baby just has to come out or die. Both my children and I are alive today because when it came to a hard decision, the doctor was willing to use a knife to insure our survival. The release of this game was much the same. It was a thing that had to happen, and because of it the game and the team now have a chance to live that they would not otherwise have had.
Yeah (http://arinndembo.com/?p=743)
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Aside from that reviews suck anyways and reviews of space strategy games even more... even Homeworld 2 barely got some 60% in the games magazine i used to read back then LOL.
Except that's actually pretty spot on for Homeworld 2, the campaign was terrible, with poor map design and even worse story/plot, balance was pretty poor too, all you ever needed to do was just mass battlecruisers, which the AI loved to do when you just started building your third destroyer.
Had good music too, but not as good as some of the Homeworld tracks.
So far, a very typical Paradox release, but with the added spice that Kerberos had to push it out the door or die, apparently.
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So SotS2 will be a decently playable game in about a year then. Good to know.
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So SotS2 will be a decently playable game in about a year then. Good to know.
Probably.
It seems far better than SotS 1 was on release, but niggling technical issues abound. (My computer's sound dies entirely because of the Gauss Cannon firing/impact noises, and a friend has the same issue)
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Well the "final build" plays like a beta.
Options screen not working? Their solution? Disable it.
It's not hanging on end turn anymore, but still random crashes during pop-ups.
Initializing the star map and main menu also seems to take longer than it should, once it's up it's smooth but there's a good 5-10sec load on the renderer. Very annoying with the main menu.
Overall GUI wise, a lot of steps backwards made worse by a lack of documentation and tool tips. Also missing artwork for things.
...and despite claims that "people were finnicky about the SotS1 screen space use" those were clean, generally intuitive menus whereas these ones are a case of graphic designers running rampant with no regard for usability.
Basic things like the color coding in SotS1 which helped differentiate menus are gone, ETA markers with fleets, etc.
The new fleet system is a mixed bag. Colonizing and exploring systems I do like with the new mechanics but it's rather encumbersome for things like attacks, defense, etc.
It really needs clearer indications of ETAs on strategic view, an option to not return to base immediately when doing a mission but instead to stay and take on a new mission prompt (do a toggle for this).
Tactical is good, but the problem is still with autoresolve. By axing the calculation system and going with running them at high speed it can take forever to go through turns.
...and the damn 3 second end turn countdown timer is still there.
Anyway, I still can't complete a game due to the colonizing pop up crashes, but 1v1 isn't too bad.
The combat is great, which is the focus of the game, but the broken strategic side makes it hard to get to the part of the game that does work :p
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The bugs listing has been updated.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2208346
And more stuff at http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=21876
Well, with any luck the game might be properly patched up for Christmas holidays.
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Yeah, what a huge pile of crap. I have fate in Kerberos, and I truly hope that they will be able to finish and fix this. OK, so I can't play the game this weekend. Dissapointing, but not that bad. I hope that once repaired, it will be a great game. I was impressed about the shipmodels in the race selection screen. If the ingame is only half es good, that would be awesome.
However, I'm very worried, that if they are already out of money yet, it's unlikely that any addons will follow, because i think Kerberos will die after this :sigh: And Paradox certainly doesn't have to blaim them alone, because they were the one pushing them to release, it's their fault as well if you ask me. But now, so many customers are angry and pissed off, I doubt the company will make it out of this alive.
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Good. Let's be honest here, this is how they usually release a game. (I mean jesus, this is how Paradox usually releases games, nevermind their developers.) Any company that makes a habit of releasing products in this state deserves death.
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Honestly, I cannot argue about that, i'm not sure which of my games is published by parallax. but sadly, this is how it often works in the gaming industry. The work for money, nothing else. It's the economic. Unfortunately, not all have the funds of a blizzard and bioware.
Of course I'm a bit perplex about the release state of this game, but I simply don't want to anger myself. I just hope they fix it, and will survive for one or two (working) addons. Everything else, I see simply do not interested in. But I definitly don't care about the "Publisher", but only the developer. If paralax dies, I don't care even a second.
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It's confirmed that a completely wrong version ofhhte game somehow made it to the steam server. This is now causing the devs all kinds of headaches.
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You're pretty late with that information. Correct version was already uploaded to Steam yesterday and been downloaded by Steam clients. There's even been a small patch since.
Well, unless the original upload of the game is STILL causing them problems even after it was replaced by supposedly correct version.
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Yep, that has been fixed since saturday. Despite what I have read, i will try it out today. Yesterday, I only started it up shortly, and in the weapon test it crackled, and then sound was gone. I first thought I installed something wrong on the new OS, but it seems to be the game. And if it wont work, then I will play Starruler for 2 weeks again until the bugs are mostly sorted out. I'm confident, they will manage it.
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Good. Let's be honest here, this is how they usually release a game. (I mean jesus, this is how Paradox usually releases games, nevermind their developers.) Any company that makes a habit of releasing products in this state deserves death.
... it's a bit unfortunate how they are/will be judged over this however because they are one of the very few left that even attempt to make a complex 4x strategy game, don't you think?
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Definitly. This is an enourmos negative blow against their reputation. Think about all the reviews coming out the next weeks in all magazines. If they do not fix that fast, it could be their end.... And 4x Space Games are rare. The developers of StarRuler also go a new path now, since their sales didn't went so well. Quite a shame, since it's a great game.
And I still not give up the hope, that someday we will see a new imperium galactica, with direct planet building, RTS ground and Spacebattles, Research and Shipbuilding.
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Normally I'd blame the crunch for stuff like this, it's why setting release dates for games is always a bit risky. Problem is, the risk of not having release dates is Duke Nukem Syndrome.
Someone made a cock-up, probably quite a small one in the grand scheme of things, clicked on the wrong file in FTP or the like. Personally, I think judgement should be based on how they deal with the problem, rather than what the problem is, so I'll give it a week or two before picking up the game :)
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What does SOTS stand for!
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What do you mean by that ? The shortcut ? It's "Sword of the Stars".
In the first game, one of the terran dreadnaught ship types automatically was named that way, when you build it.
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What does SOTS stand for!
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sword+of+the+stars&aq=2
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... it's a bit unfortunate how they are/will be judged over this however because they are one of the very few left that even attempt to make a complex 4x strategy game, don't you think?
You mean, perhaps, with the appearance of complexity. (They're certainly not actually complex. Complex is over there with HoI3/Vicky2 which were also similar disasters at release. Complex is something like Dwarf Fortress. This is stuff isn't much more complex than MoO2. Hell, Civilization has been far more complex for the last two expansions. Alpha mother****ing Centauri is at least as complex as SOTS!)
Granted, I have little respect for the designer, regarding them as totally inept at game design, totally inept at community interface (lolMecron) and totally inept at programming. But that's really not relevant.
If Bioware, if Obsidian, if goddamn Relic had tried to foist this game off upon me with assurances of completeness before release, **** damage control after, and the promise that in perhaps a year we'll have most of the bugs worked out (since I know from personal experience that SOTS1 was never completely fixed) , I'd want their heads on a platter too. I'd be donating oil and rags to the cause of watching them burn. And they'd have only ****ed up once.
SOTS1 came out like this too, an unplayable, nonfunctional wreck. We have a consistent pattern of behavior. Death is no longer merely just, there is no possible excuse for not supporting it.
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Complex is over there with HoI3/Vicky2 which were also similar disasters at release.
No, by all accounts this release is a completely different sort of disaster. The options screen is disabled. I can't speak to HoI3, but V2's problems were largely of the "gameplay needed more fine-tuning because there's an inevitable depression in 1880" variety, not the "yeah, uh, the options don't work so we turned them off" variety.
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I don't actually have either, I admit, but from what I've heard from people who do they were pretty awful on release day. They mentioned a number of rather bizarre AI problems.
Granted this is worse, but we've got a pattern of behavior either way.
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When it works though. Hoooweeeeee. It's blamming awesome. http://steamcommunity.com/id/HeroSwe/screenshot/612715011122783702?
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http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22033
Or if Kerberos forums are down again, then http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2212018
The most important bits:
This plan means that you folks can expect at least 2 or 3 updates a week over the next month or so that will gradually make this game into what it should have been when the switch was pulled on friday.
and
On the other hand, if a free copy of the orginal SotS will help tide you over while we get this game shined from turnip to jewel, then please write to "[email protected]" and we will set you up.
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SOTS1 was completely fixed....
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So they handing out free copies of Sots1... but what about those of us who already bought it and therefore supported Kerberos with our hard earned money before!?!??! NOTHING!??! mhhhfp mhhhfffp!?? /RAGE :g:
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Do we need SOTS2 to have free SOTS1?
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Is the first. Installment any good? It was on Steam for $5.
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Yep, SotS1 is great.
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If you consider SOTS 1 great there is no hope for you as a human being.
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And your opinion doesn't count because you live in your own reality just like your title says. :p
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And your opinion doesn't count because you live in your own reality just like your title says. :p
When I first expressed that opinion I didn't have this title. :P
But more seriously it's a non-complex game of attritional combat at the strategic level. With continuous lines. (In space. Continuous lines in mother****ing space.) There's no room for brilliance or strategy in nearly every game. There's little room for even tactical skills.
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Ermm... everything in that post is wrong, just absolutely wrong.
SotS1 has plenty of issues mind you, horrible... horrible voice acting and 2d art. But after the first expansion, it was a good game despite some glaringly weird design issues.
The species added in the expansions are trickier to play but it's not an attritional combat game except for the very largest maps and part of that is the economy is balanced for 12 systems per faction or so. Even then if you're facing swarms there's plenty of ways to win with a smaller, superior, force unless you've been utterly screwed tech tree wise.
But MOO2 becomes that way on very large endgame galaxies.
Also considering the entire focus is on tactical combat, and how you can use an inferior force well (disabling specific turrets, etc.) claiming there's no room for tactical skills makes no sense at all.
Now SotS2, when it does work (which is rare) seems to be good. But there's so many damn issues (diplomacy and sectors not working at all, AI mission types not executing right, fleets jumping into stars! STARS! and the endless crashes) that it is unplayable.
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I never bothered to pick off turrets. Kill 'em with fire I say! With fire! :p
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Well tonight I'll see if I can actually complete a game without it crashing and burning. I managed to make a pretty dreadnaught but can't seem to use it in fights because of the whole jumping into a star issue :p
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wow. never seen this game before. it looks better than sins.
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If you consider SOTS 1 great there is no hope for you as a human being.
And if you make a statement like that, then you can abandon all hope of anyone ever taking you seriously ever again.
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SoTS was pretty good, there were parts of the Engine I liked, the combat was more fun to watch than stuff like Masters of Orion, though there were advantages to turn-based combat, as my current play-through of the Battle Isle series is reminding me. The UI seemed to be designed around small games though, large empires were difficult to manage.
I liked the unique technologies for each race, and the game flowed quite well (with the 'in a small game' qualifier), but was it 'Masters of Orion Reborn'? No. This is not an Empire Management game, it was never designed to be and the manual pretty much states it outright. It provides functionality for that if it is what people want, but the mechanics don't really hold together for it, it's designed to be played as a small strategy game with almost instant contact between parties, not a large sprawling exploration game.
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Sorry pet peeve:
MASTER not MASTERS
SINGULAR! I CONTROL ORION AND NO ONE ELSE! *ahum*
SotS II, when the game is finished in two months... *cough* does seem to have the markings of a good MOO replacement.
The stations now work like building construction in MOO2. The Admiral system plays a lot like Total War's generals and MOO's heroes.
It would be nice for Kerberos to have waited until January for release (tell Paradox that everyone's Christmas money would be spent on it) and given two more months to get things working.
Many of the bugs seem to be a case where the devs played with so long that there is a habitus of certain buttons and things being done right.
For instance, spawning in a star happens if the game tries to use default combat settings because it doesn't remember them. If you click the agression, attack, and select your fleet at the start of combat it'll actually properly deploy your forces.
The same with many other screens, where they only work properly if you click buttons in the exact order as intended by the devs.
So in other words, they didn't even know that everything was broken because they weren't mucking with their own interface much like with Elemental.
Anyway this digresses from the main point:
Overall tactical is better than the first game, the fleet system while a bit odd actually is somewhat clever and means that combat is centered around skirmishes, interdicting supply lines, and moving to take out starbases.
So when the UI is fixed, bugs fixed, etc. there is an interesting game under it all that reminds me a lot of MOO2.
At the same time there are some ass backwards dumb decisions like the current broken autoresolve system which means it takes a long time on large maps to get through turns despite it being 100% accurate.
I don't care if the damn enemy armor or shields aren't perfectly simulated in auto resolve if it only takes 5 seconds to go between turns! I'd only care if it consistently broke major things like mass driver damage never reported, etc.
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The species added in the expansions are trickier to play but it's not an attritional combat game except for the very largest maps and part of that is the economy is balanced for 12 systems per faction or so.
Ah, I see the problem.
You don't understand how combat at a strategic scale works. Too many RTS have left you thinking that strategy means tactics.
Every planet is a source of production. There is no strategic-scale target with intrinsically more value than any other unless you're playing against Terrans. There are no chokepoints, no battles of maneuver, no snapping links off the production or logistical chain.
Strategic combat is straight attritional. There is no way to neutralize an enemy short of conquering all his planets. There is no way to significantly dent his war production short of killing a significant number of his planets or destroying a significant number of his trade ships. There is no way to impact the performance of his fleets save to kill them or kill a huge number of his worlds.
So against one race, just one, is it possible to do something beyond straight kill **** that will impact his war effort. And only if the node lines work out in your favor. That's literally all the strategic non-attritional strategy that is applicable.
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Wrong actually. Planets have different output depending on their size, resource base and station in orbit. You do have highly valubale worlds that contribute to a large chunk of the total empire I/O.
Then again, I suppose you'd want "forced" strategic value. Where plents are illogicly shoe-horned into agri-worlds of forge-worlds.
SOTS1 has enough of everything in resonable amounts. Empire managment? As much as it's reasonsbly necessary. Micro-managing every building on a planet is NOT what emperors do.
So yeah..I'm not really missing it. It gets especially tiresome in large or late games when you have many planets to administer.
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So it suits you personally, and that's fine. No-one is saying that you are not allowed to like the game.
For my part, I enjoy that kind level of detail in a game, which is odd, because I hate over-realistic flight simulators etc, maybe it's because as I get older, the cereberal challenge is more winnable than the reaction time-based ones ;)
Thing is, it could be argued that the planetary descriptions created in Elite were 'pointless depth' because they were over and above what the game needed to be playable, and added nothing to gameplay, but the truth is those description were part of what made the game what it was. MoO is like that, The non rubber-stampness of the Universe made you feeling in a more vibrant and interesting Universe, and the ability to micromanage not only allowed fine tuning of production areas within the game zone, but also actually made you feel like they were unique, conqured worlds that needed ruling, not just another resource point.
I think it's kind of a pity that interst in games that can take several days to complete is waning, not sure if it's a factor of free time or attention span, whilst SoTS is a fun game, and I enjoy playing it from time to time, I still think there is space on the market for a good 'Space Empire Management' game, rather than a 'Space War Simulator' like SoTS.
That's my take on the matter anyway :)
Edit: As for NGT's comments, to be honest, I'm not a fan of huge 'if you like X then you are a Y' generalisations about games, whilst not exactly personal attacks, they are only not personal in their condemnation of an entire group of people whose only fault is to like a particular game, the recipient included.
That said, I have a feeling he's winding you up because he knows how you'll react :p
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I loved the old MoO2 ..and BOTF...they are fun in their own way, but they are taxing. Spredsheet games.
Frankly, SOTS was a breath for a fresh air to me. I felt more like a dicrector/emperor, rather than some middle-managment guy. Let's face it - the Emperor/President does not deal with the micro level of things.
Despite it's aparent simplicity, SOTS is very deep and complex, and avoids the pitfalls of spredsheat managment games. And it can take several days to complete.
At least for me, it's not about complexity - as I like complexity. It's about unecessary complexity and tedium.
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I loved the old MoO2 ..and BOTF...they are fun in their own way, but they are taxing. Spredsheet games.
Frankly, SOTS was a breath for a fresh air to me. I felt more like a dicrector/emperor, rather than some middle-managment guy. Let's face it - the Emperor/President does not deal with the micro level of things.
The true success of Sots, imho, was that it was a 4x game that had the right balance of complexity and accessibility to still be a viable multiplayer game (i.e. viable as in the wait time for human opponents not being a complete showstopper, as it is in many/most other 4x games) while not being overly simplistic or "gamey". (i.e. as in cutting most features out that make 4x games so appealing as seen in the few 4x games that attempted to be true multiplayer games.)
The frustrating thing with Sots2 is that you can really see that all the pieces necessary to repeat that success are there... but besides badly connected/put together the game as a whole just does not work currently.
Worst part: The technical side is only half the story... there are just as many, if not more, gameplay issues that are pretty much a showstopper (or make you want to go back to the current incarnation of Sots1 instead - not that Sots1 is perfect... but it is very much playable and enjoyable... which Sots2 very much is not right now).
Frankly... in the state that the game is in right now I would be very surprised if it will be in something approaching a satisfactory/enjoyable state even in say... 6 months from now.
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The species added in the expansions are trickier to play but it's not an attritional combat game except for the very largest maps and part of that is the economy is balanced for 12 systems per faction or so.
Every planet is a source of production. There is no strategic-scale target with intrinsically more value than any other unless you're playing against Terrans. There are no chokepoints, no battles of maneuver, no snapping links off the production or logistical chain.
I'm not even going to acknowledge the "shot across the bow" you use in that post.
Each species has a different type of FTL so strategies have to be different.
First off forge worlds v.s. civilian support worlds do exist:
Different planet sizes lead to different production ratings. So you can cut off the head of the enemy and force them into debt and unable to manage fleets. This is in the vanilla game.
With Born of Blood civilian trade is added, now you can harass trade networks and cripple economies without direct warfare and send your fleets to wipe out the industrial planets.
With A Murder of Crows civilians, surrendering, and stations had been added. Stations adding a MOO quality of planet customization and civilians adding more depth to the trade system.
Now you could customize planets even more, and needed to prioritize targets. Take out the sensor network and repair forward base? Or focus on the softer civilian trading worlds and cripple the economy?
To a degree it took two expansions to get the features to the point that you'd consider there to be any strategic depth, but it's there.
Each form of FTL also has real implications.
For the Tarkas, no there's no choke points. There really weren't choke points in MOO for the same reason with warp drive. It's still an island-hopping system even in 3d.
However, Tarka FTL is damn slow, so most races can wrap around them.
Liir slow down in gravity wells, so dominate deep space but get screwed in tight clusters.
The Zuul make their own node lines and networks, but once you figure out the routes they're taking you can outmanuver them.
The Hivers with the gates means that you can easily cripple them if you go all out and strip out the gate system. There's a limit to the ships they can warp through gates so strike at multiple systems at once and you'll screw them over hard.
So yes, there's strategy AND tactics. *sigh*
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Is this game worth buying?
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Buy Sword of the Stars 1, wait until January for 2.
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It's getting patched at an incredible rate though. The sound bug was just recently fixed and as soon as they get the crashing and occasional slow interface problems under control. I'll be able to play it without stopping, because the combat I've experienced so far has got me itching to see what Dreadnaughts and Leviathans and the others can do.
The rest of the stuff (Interface, tooltips etc etc) will all be fixed in due time. I have faith in Kerberos. SOTS1 is a masterpiece of everything combined. SOTS2 will only be better.
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It's no longer crashing on me, but I hold fast with the "wait until January" because it'll be a month or two before the tech tree is fully working etc.
There's a bare bones game now, but it's still not feature complete and I have no idea what was going through anyone's heads at Kerberos and Paradox that they thought it was remotely ready for the time of day even in this current state. (not that either would admit fiscal issues but I really don't see how anyone thought that it wouldn't be a disaster in its state)
Even with the game working, there's still awkward menu design decisions, things that were fine in the first game and are now utterly nonsensical.
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As far as I was able to gather, something happened to their code.
A few fetures that were shown working at the Fan Gathering (super-heavy missiles for example) were not working at release..which is rather odd.
That said, the patches and hotfixes are coming out at an insane rate. I'm most impressed at the pathcing speed.
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Yep. They really try hard to fix things up. Unfortunately, even if the patch says it fixed that, the transition between the pages is still incredibly slow, that really test my patience. I guess I will have to wait a few more weeks, till everything works out. But I'm still confident, this will become a great game.
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As far as I was able to gather, something happened to their code.
A few fetures that were shown working at the Fan Gathering (super-heavy missiles for example) were not working at release..which is rather odd.
That said, the patches and hotfixes are coming out at an insane rate. I'm most impressed at the pathcing speed.
That's what I don't understand, the previews showed a stable, working, game with the core features all implemented I could understand the constant CTDs and if there were memory leaks because of not testing on a variety of systems but the state of the game at release made no sense since features we saw working that weren't even ones officially removed (like neutral factions) aren't there. (even when considering the old build Steam uploaded)
Needless to say this is the last Kerberos game I'm buying at release. They pulled an Elemental, and Stardock is similarly on my ****list.
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As I said - something happened that nuked the code. Definately not planned. No one would sabotage themselves like this.
Me? I'm buying ever Kerberos game at full price. They make AMAZING games (once fully patched) and their commitment is second to none. Hence, why I support them.
EDIT: Aaandd another patch. If I counted properly, that's 6 patches and 2-3 hotfixes! In barely 2 weeks!
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EDIT: Aaandd another patch. If I counted properly, that's 6 patches and 2-3 hotfixes! In barely 2 weeks!
My inner cynic is saying "yeah well, the more bugs you include the more you can patch!!!"
Still will propably half a year+ until we get a stable, playable game... if we're lucky. ;)
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Maybe one day we'll hear the true story about what happened to SotS2.
In a movie.
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They announced the biggest patch on wensday.
The game should be fully fixed before Christmas....Maybe even before the end of this month (according to their estimates).
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Granted, I have little respect for the designer, regarding them as totally inept at game design, totally inept at community interface (lolMecron) and totally inept at programming. But that's really not relevant.
Lol same here.
That aside I did have a bit of fun with Sots1, flawed as it may have been on many points. It lacked enough depth for me to keep playing for long. (&abusable stupid A.I.)
Sots2 completely slipped under my radar, only learned about its release after seeing this topic. So I looked it up on steam to see if there was a demo. Then I read this thread and the lists of bugs and now I wouldn't even wanna pirate it and waste my time on this crashfest. :p (I've had quite enough of bug ridden incomplete bull**** after empire total war thank you very much)
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So do my Meson Projectors in PD mode work yet?
(Answer, no, missiles are invincible.)
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Having read a bit more about this whole fiasco, I'm pretty sure this wasn't just a "Oops, we uploaded a beta build. Silly us!" as Mecron's 'apology' almost seems to imply. Having seen the lists of endless bugs and unimplented features, there is no way the dev team didn't know how incomplete their game was when they threw it up for sale. The blog of that lady that writes the lore and stuff seems to indicate that the dev team was already in some kind of (money?) trouble with developers leaving the team and the fact that she compared this release with a caesarean section (or something along those lines). This was a forced premature released because they were most likely out of funds.
While the support they get on the forum from a few members is charming, its pretty surely not going to compensate for the massive amount of lost sales caused by the terrible reviews and bad mouth to mouth this release have gave them. They seem determined to support this game proper though, props for that.
For me personally, I just get a good chuckle out of this. I fondly recall Mecron saying at one time that he felt SotS1 was ready for release a few months before it actually got released. Then we saw on release how ready the game truely was. Needing a patch on release day was a pretty good indicator.
How ready was SotS2, Mecron? :p
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Well, I'm not so sure if it's tied to needing the money because they haven't done the retail boxed version yet.
From what I can tell:
Some team members left who were tied to coding (personal leave for family/temporary it sounds like)
Mecron more or less went on about how few people were going to buy it on Steam and it although unpolished the hard core fans would be the ones playing it. They were scared and surprised at its actual sales.
A lot of features were disabled during the short beta in October due to stability issues. (so techs and the systems they're re-implementing)
Most of the problems look like they're tied to quickly gutting out core systems in the name of stability and then slowly building it back up.
So my thoughts:
They were on schedule but the team members leaving meant they had a coder shortage.
Paradox thought the game looked good and pushed for release. (and by all accounts it *looks* good at a glance, but then you realize everything under the good is broken)
Mecron went "well it'll be a bit buggy, let's do a limited Steam release"
Beta hits, holy crap it's broken! MARS2 doesn't run on anything but our testing platforms!
Systems get gutted so they can release it with minimal crashes and build it back up "well we can patch it... crap"
...and massive release contrary to expectations and huge cluster****
Basically, it sounds like the stuff Interplay pulled. All they cared about was how it looked on the surface (Klingon Academy) and even if core systems were broken they'd push for release. (or the opposite everything worked but the graphics sucked they'd scream murder)
Anyway I'm refusing to touch this game until mid December, I've wasted too much time trying to play something that's utterly broken.
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I have faith in Kerberos. SOTS1 is a masterpiece of everything combined. SOTS2 will only be better.
lol blind fanboyism
Granted, I have little respect for the designer, regarding them as totally inept at game design, totally inept at community interface (lolMecron) and totally inept at programming. But that's really not relevant.
Lol same here.
That aside I did have a bit of fun with Sots1, flawed as it may have been on many points. It lacked enough depth for me to keep playing for long. (&abusable stupid A.I.)
Sots2 completely slipped under my radar, only learned about its release after seeing this topic. So I looked it up on steam to see if there was a demo. Then I read this thread and the lists of bugs and now I wouldn't even wanna pirate it and waste my time on this crashfest. :p (I've had quite enough of bug ridden incomplete bull**** after empire total war thank you very much)
Both of these quotes are a lot more spot on.
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Pfft...Haters Gonna Hate.
You are probably among those trolls that got banned from Kerberos forums and hold a grudge ever since.
And it's not blind fanboyims, but a simple truth supported by facts - Kerberos support for their games is beyond exemplary. Their track record here is not in question.
Kerberos = amazing
Mecron = cool guy
Mecron/Kerberos haters = not cool guys
that is all.
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Seems to me that if they have a history of releasing buggy, half-finished games, I would certainly hope their support staff is top-notch! Otherwise, they would be sunk as a company!
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Pfft...Haters Gonna Hate.
You are probably among those trolls that got banned from Kerberos forums and hold a grudge ever since.
And it's not blind fanboyims, but a simple truth supported by facts - Kerberos support for their games is beyond exemplary. Their track record here is not in question.
Kerberos = amazing
Mecron = cool guy
Mecron/Kerberos haters = not cool guys
that is all.
lol blind fanboyism
Seems to me that a company with a track record of releasing buggy, untested, unfinished and borderline unplayable software should not be getting that much support from the gaming public just because they have good ideas. No matter how good they are about supportingfinishing their games after release, the fact that people have to pay money for broken games and hope that they'll get unbroken after release is not quite as endearing a strategy as you may think it is, TrashMan.
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MEh.
Their games are great. All of them.
Their support is constant and goes beyond merely fixing bugs.
Their updates are more like mini-expansions, as they add new things - a new encoutner, new eye candy, or something else. SOTS ended up as an amazing game, despite it's rocky begining...and it's stable as hell (I modded the living s*** out of it and I had to work to make it crash)
As for SOTS2 - that's not a buisness strategy.
It's a fluke...a cockup. Unplanned. Unwanted. I don't think any developer plans on their code getting nuked.
They're doing a stellar job of patching it up. The game, even in it's current state, shows great depth and love.
That's what matters.
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/05/hatereagle.jpg)
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You keep saying "their code getting nuked".
Do you have evidence of this? Do you have evidence of a software firm that is so inept, so clueless as to not use even the most basic forms of source control? Either way, it does NOT reflect well on that company that you love so much.
And aspirations to greatness, while a good thing to have, are not a replacement for being great. I have to wonder why someone who is so eager to criticize other game producers that have a much better track record of getting playable and enjoyable games out the door is willing to let blatant incompetence (if they've allowed "their code to get nuked" as you keep repeating) or inability to properly organize their release schedules (in case they really had to release it early), or inability to manage a business (in case they had to release or go bankrupt) slide so easily.
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You keep saying "their code getting nuked".
Do you have evidence of this? Do you have evidence of a software firm that is so inept, so clueless as to not use even the most basic forms of source control? Either way, it does NOT reflect well on that company that you love so much.
s**** happens sometimes.
I once had my data backed up on 3 locations (one a web storage) and I still wihtin half a day lost all 3.
Unlikely? Yes.
Did it still happen? Yep. I lost months of work depsite all the precautions.
As to where I get that from? Simple. I cruse the forusm there and I pick things up. Also, at the fan gathering, a few people could play the game a bit. It was in a better state then it was at release (and had some of the features that dont' work now working there without problems).
It doesn't take a genius really....such a step back doesn't happen just like that.
As to it not reflecting well..Quite the contrary. What happened happened - it's useless to cry over spilled milk. And no one is immune to giant f***-ups.
How one deals with a disaster speaks volume, and Kerberos deals with it exemplary.
At least this mistake/disaster is something that can be fixed with a few patches. Even in the state it is in, one can see the massive amounts of potential.
A badly designed game from the get go - no amount of patches can't fix.
And aspirations to greatness, while a good thing to have, are not a replacement for being great. I have to wonder why someone who is so eager to criticize other game producers that have a much better track record of getting playable and enjoyable games out the door is willing to let blatant incompetence (if they've allowed "their code to get nuked" as you keep repeating) or inability to properly organize their release schedules (in case they really had to release it early), or inability to manage a business (in case they had to release or go bankrupt) slide so easily.
Wonder away.
The reaasons are simple enough and self-evident, and if you can't see it, it's not my problem.
Altough I do have to wonder what are those "better and more enjoyable" games you speak off...and who you are to judge competence.
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Could you folks please agree to disagree where relevant here... and simmer down? If it keeps up I'll have to get our the "naughty kids" hat and make people sit in the corner but I'd rather everyone take a moment to chill out and/or move on.
Thank you :)
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Well, for one, I can read and comprehend english. I talked about companies "who have a better track record of releasing playable and enjoyable games", not "companies that release more playable and more enjoyable games". There's a difference there, I suggest you reread the sentences and figure it out.
And no matter what your own experiences are regarding your own backups, if you are a multi-million dollar company with a single product under development that your future is riding on, you better make damn sure that your work is secured to hell and back. And again, a company that doesn't take these fundamental precautions and then suffers the consequences deserves all the blame and mockery it gets. Remember, even SCP, as a non-commercial, run-by-non-professionals entity has a better security for its code assets in place. It isn't that hard to do, so failing to take sufficient precautions is a sign of incompetence.
As to it not reflecting well..Quite the contrary. What happened happened - it's useless to cry over spilled milk. And no one is immune to giant f***-ups.
How one deals with a disaster speaks volume, and Kerberos deals with it exemplary.
At least this mistake/disaster is something that can be fixed with a few patches. Even in the state it is in, one can see the massive amounts of potential.
A badly designed game from the get go - no amount of patches can't fix.
They still released a product they knew was broken. No matter how good they are about fixing it after the fact, nothing can excuse that. They charged full price for something that wasn't completely usable, this would have been a disaster in any other branch of economy. But in gaming, suddenly everything is forgivable, given that "they have imagination". This is a fundamentally wrong approach to buying and selling products, both from their perspective, and from your perspective as a customer.
Could you folks please agree to disagree where relevant here... and simmer down? If it keeps up I'll have to get our the "naughty kids" hat and make people sit in the corner but I'd rather everyone take a moment to chill out and/or move on.
Thank you :)
Sorry, but calling out someone who has been accusing other people of blind fanboyism in other threads on his own blind fanboyism here is just necessary.
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Except that nothing you say is likely to make a difference. In the words of a great comedian:
"And if perchance I have offended
Think but this and all is mended:
We’d as well be 10 minutes back in time,
For all the chance you’ll change your mind."
-Tim Minchin
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Didn't everyone already knew here that Trashman is a blindfanboi for Kerberos? All of his previous posts on this subject already made that abundantly clear (besides he has like 5100+ posts on the Kerberos forums if you need any other indicator).
"Kerebos&mecron can do no wrong and deserve your eternal loyality. If you disagree than 'haters gonna hate' and you 'probably hold a grudge'" <-- this right here is just comedy gold.
I once saw a interesting video of a developer/pr kinda guy who worked on Battlefield heroes. Their survey showed that around 10% of their playerbase lurked the forums. 2% of these would also post. The remainder had never even visited the forums. If you assume equal (maybe a bit more posters) numbers for SoTS playerbase, you'll realize just how small this amount of forum cheers and support is that they are getting.
As for SOTS2 - that's not a buisness strategy.
It's a fluke...a cockup. Unplanned. Unwanted. I don't think any developer plans on their code getting nuked.
There has been absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support your 'code nuke' theory. And as The E already pointed out, if this somehow actually did happen it only shows how utterly incompetent they are. As far as I can tell they deliberately chose to (probably didnt had much choice, the actual circumstances are unknown, but I think that blog gives a pretty good indicator as I already said in my earlier post) try and sell a incomplete&bugged product.
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Didn't everyone already knew here that Trashman is a blindfanboi for Kerberos? All of his previous posts on this subject already made that abundantly clear (besides he has like 5100+ posts on the Kerberos forums if you need any other indicator).
Weren't you banned from their forums?
Probably.... They are big on order there and trolls don't live long.
Also the reason why I go there..It's a very nice place. Nicer than 99,9% of al lforums I ever visited (this included).
"Kerebos&mecron can do no wrong and deserve your eternal loyality. If you disagree than 'haters gonna hate' and you 'probably hold a grudge'" <-- this right here is just comedy gold.
:D
Well, glad I'm making you laugh. I achieve more good that way than you ever will.
Also...two sides of every coin. Label me a fanboi all you want. It's irrelevant really. Haters are as blind and beyond reason as any fanboy.
As for SOTS2 - that's not a buisness strategy.
It's a fluke...a cockup. Unplanned. Unwanted. I don't think any developer plans on their code getting nuked.
There has been absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support your 'code nuke' theory. And as The E already pointed out, if this somehow actually did happen it only shows how utterly incompetent they are. As far as I can tell they deliberately chose to (probably didnt had much choice, the actual circumstances are unknown, but I think that blog gives a pretty good indicator as I already said in my earlier post) try and sell a incomplete&bugged product.
Meh...believe what you want. It's not like I'm gonan change your narrow mind.
Funny how judgmental you are..Incopetence? Not really. To fail is easy. To suceed difficult.
Even competent people have a bad day or jsut bad luck.
And if you want to go the "should have" route, you can forget about it. "Should have" is irrelevant because even taking all reasonable precautions is no garantee something won't go horribly wrong.
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Weren't you banned from their forums?
Probably.... They are big on order there and trolls don't live long.
I see your memory is as bad as your fanboyishm
The answer didnt change the last time you asked this: No, I did not get banned.
Yes, I've repeately butted heads with mecron because he got super aggressive and defensive when someone told him certain aspects of the game could be better.
Also, this was years ago and despite what you seem to believe. I do not hold a grudge or am 'blindly hating' on them. I have no reason to.
I do however gleefully look at this collosal **** up on their side, doesn't seem they have learned much in the past years! They need not worry though, they have stalwart defenders like Trashman on their side. No matter what kind of bugged and incomplete **** they churn out, their loyal fans will eat it up with gusto
Meh...believe what you want. It's not like I'm gonan change your narrow mind.
Funny how judgmental you are..Incopetence? Not really. To fail is easy. To suceed difficult.
Even competent people have a bad day or jsut bad luck.
And if you want to go the "should have" route, you can forget about it. "Should have" is irrelevant because even taking all reasonable precautions is no garantee something won't go horribly wrong.
I'll just roflcopter out of here because everyone with a brain here can see what hopeless case you are :lol:
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Also, this was years ago and despite what you seem to believe. I do not hold a grudge or am 'blindly hating' on them. I have no reason to.
Aha....and why exactly should I believe you when you say you're not a hater?
You don't seem to belive me when I say I'm nto a fanboy.
In fact, you seem to use my post coutn as proof I'm a blind fanboy.
Then again, you have over 2000 posts here. Does that mean every time you defend HLP or Freespace, no one should take you seriously? By your own logic, you're a fanboy.
I do however gleefully look at this collosal **** up on their side, doesn't seem they have learned much in the past years! They need not worry though, they have stalwart defenders like Trashman on their side. No matter what kind of bugged and incomplete **** they churn out, their loyal fans will eat it up with gusto.
Meh. In a month or two that "piece of s***" as you call it will be a 5-course dinner fit for a king. You're free to pass it up if you want, but only a blind fool can not see how good the game really is.
Meh...believe what you want. It's not like I'm gonan change your narrow mind.
Funny how judgmental you are..Incopetence? Not really. To fail is easy. To suceed difficult.
Even competent people have a bad day or jsut bad luck.
And if you want to go the "should have" route, you can forget about it. "Should have" is irrelevant because even taking all reasonable precautions is no garantee something won't go horribly wrong.
I'll just roflcopter out of here because everyone with a brain here can see what hopeless case you are :lol:
Excuse me.. I assumed you are perfection incaranate that never has bad luck, never makes mistakes or never has accidents happen to him.
Because if any of that happened, you'd apparently be an incompetent moron. But you say you're not.
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These discussions about SoTS always seem to end up here...
Oh dear... I come back a day later and things didn't really improve did they? Thanks for locking this Flipside. Not to threaten anyone involved but please don't do this again ok? This thread will be remembered and you can't carry on like this indefinitely. Bans will be handed out for trolls / idiots / stupid behaviour if problems persist. - Fineus