Author Topic: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales  (Read 20370 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Wrong actually. Planets have different output depending on their size, resource base and station in orbit. You do have highly valubale worlds that contribute to a large chunk of the total empire I/O.

Then again, I suppose you'd want "forced" strategic value. Where plents are illogicly shoe-horned into agri-worlds of forge-worlds.

SOTS1 has enough of everything in resonable amounts. Empire managment? As much as it's reasonsbly necessary. Micro-managing every building on a planet is NOT what emperors do.
So yeah..I'm not really missing it. It gets especially tiresome in large or late games when you have many planets to administer.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
So it suits you personally, and that's fine. No-one is saying that you are not allowed to like the game.

For my part, I enjoy that kind level of detail in a game, which is odd, because I hate over-realistic flight simulators etc, maybe it's because as I get older, the cereberal challenge is more winnable than the reaction time-based ones ;)

Thing is, it could be argued that the planetary descriptions created in Elite were 'pointless depth' because they were over and above what the game needed to be playable, and added nothing to gameplay, but the truth is those description were part of what made the game what it was. MoO is like that, The non rubber-stampness of the Universe made you feeling in a more vibrant and interesting Universe, and the ability to micromanage not only allowed fine tuning of production areas within the game zone, but also actually made you feel like they were unique, conqured worlds that needed ruling, not just another resource point.

I think it's kind of a pity that interst in games that can take several days to complete is waning, not sure if it's a factor of free time or attention span, whilst SoTS is a fun game, and I enjoy playing it from time to time, I still think there is space on the market for a good 'Space Empire Management' game, rather than a 'Space War Simulator' like SoTS.

That's my take on the matter anyway :)

Edit: As for NGT's comments, to be honest, I'm not a fan of huge 'if you like X then you are a Y' generalisations about games, whilst not exactly personal attacks, they are only not personal in their condemnation of an entire group of people whose only fault is to like a particular game, the recipient included.

That said, I have a feeling he's winding you up because he knows how you'll react :p
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 05:00:43 am by Flipside »

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
I loved the old MoO2 ..and BOTF...they are fun in their own way, but they are taxing. Spredsheet games.
Frankly, SOTS was a breath for a fresh air to me. I felt more like a dicrector/emperor, rather than some middle-managment guy. Let's face it  - the Emperor/President does not deal with the micro level of things.

Despite it's aparent simplicity, SOTS is very deep and complex, and avoids the pitfalls of spredsheat managment games. And it can take several days to complete.
At least for me, it's not about complexity - as I like complexity. It's about unecessary complexity and tedium.
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Offline Mikes

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
I loved the old MoO2 ..and BOTF...they are fun in their own way, but they are taxing. Spredsheet games.
Frankly, SOTS was a breath for a fresh air to me. I felt more like a dicrector/emperor, rather than some middle-managment guy. Let's face it  - the Emperor/President does not deal with the micro level of things.

The true success of Sots, imho, was that it was a 4x game that had the right balance of complexity and accessibility to still be a viable multiplayer game (i.e. viable as in the wait time for human opponents not being a complete showstopper, as it is in many/most other 4x games) while not being overly simplistic or "gamey". (i.e. as in cutting most features out that make 4x games so appealing as seen in the few 4x games that attempted to be true multiplayer games.)

The frustrating thing with Sots2 is that you can really see that all the pieces necessary to repeat that success are there...  but besides badly connected/put together the game as a whole just does not work currently.
Worst part: The technical side is only half the story... there are just as many, if not more, gameplay issues that are pretty much a showstopper (or make you want to go back to the current incarnation of Sots1 instead - not that Sots1 is perfect... but it is very much playable and enjoyable... which Sots2 very much is not right now).

Frankly... in the state that the game is in right now I would be very surprised if it will be in something approaching a satisfactory/enjoyable state even in say... 6 months from now.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 07:00:56 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Ace

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
The species added in the expansions are trickier to play but it's not an attritional combat game  except for the very largest maps and part of that is the economy is balanced for 12 systems per faction or so.
Every planet is a source of production. There is no strategic-scale target with intrinsically more value than any other unless you're playing against Terrans. There are no chokepoints, no battles of maneuver, no snapping links off the production or logistical chain.

I'm not even going to acknowledge the "shot across the bow" you use in that post.

Each species has a different type of FTL so strategies have to be different.

First off forge worlds v.s. civilian support worlds do exist:
Different planet sizes lead to different production ratings. So you can cut off the head of the enemy and force them into debt and unable to manage fleets. This is in the vanilla game.

With Born of Blood civilian trade is added, now you can harass trade networks and cripple economies without direct warfare and send your fleets to wipe out the industrial planets.

With A Murder of Crows civilians, surrendering, and stations had been added. Stations adding a MOO quality of planet customization and civilians adding more depth to the trade system.

Now you could customize planets even more, and needed to prioritize targets. Take out the sensor network and repair forward base? Or focus on the softer civilian trading worlds and cripple the economy?

To a degree it took two expansions to get the features to the point that you'd consider there to be any strategic depth, but it's there.

Each form of FTL also has real implications.

For the Tarkas, no there's no choke points. There really weren't choke points in MOO for the same reason with warp drive. It's still an island-hopping system even in 3d.

However, Tarka FTL is damn slow, so most races can wrap around them.

Liir slow down in gravity wells, so dominate deep space but get screwed in tight clusters.

The Zuul make their own node lines and networks, but once you figure out the routes they're taking you can outmanuver them.

The Hivers with the gates means that you can easily cripple them if you go all out and strip out the gate system. There's a limit to the ships they can warp through gates so strike at multiple systems at once and you'll screw them over hard.

So yes, there's strategy AND tactics. *sigh*
Ace
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Offline Locutus of Borg

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Is this game worth buying?
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Offline Ace

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Buy Sword of the Stars 1, wait until January for 2.
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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
It's getting patched at an incredible rate though. The sound bug was just recently fixed and as soon as they get the crashing and occasional slow interface problems under control. I'll be able to play it without stopping, because the combat I've experienced so far has got me itching to see what Dreadnaughts and Leviathans and the others can do.

The rest of the stuff (Interface, tooltips etc etc) will all be fixed in due time. I have faith in Kerberos. SOTS1 is a masterpiece of everything combined. SOTS2 will only be better.

 

Offline Ace

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
It's no longer crashing on me, but I hold fast with the "wait until January" because it'll be a month or two before the tech tree is fully working etc.

There's a bare bones game now, but it's still not feature complete and I have no idea what was going through anyone's heads at Kerberos and Paradox that they thought it was remotely ready for the time of day even in this current state. (not that either would admit fiscal issues but I really don't see how anyone thought that it wouldn't be a disaster in its state)

Even with the game working, there's still awkward menu design decisions, things that were fine in the first game and are now utterly nonsensical.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
As far as I was able to gather, something happened to their code.
A few fetures that were shown working at the Fan Gathering (super-heavy missiles for example) were not working at release..which is rather odd.

That said, the patches and hotfixes are coming out at an insane rate. I'm most impressed at the pathcing speed.
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Offline Starman01

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Yep. They really try hard to fix things up. Unfortunately, even if the patch says it fixed that, the transition between the pages is still incredibly slow, that really test my patience. I guess I will have to wait a few more weeks, till everything works out. But I'm still confident, this will become a great game.
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Offline Ace

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
As far as I was able to gather, something happened to their code.
A few fetures that were shown working at the Fan Gathering (super-heavy missiles for example) were not working at release..which is rather odd.

That said, the patches and hotfixes are coming out at an insane rate. I'm most impressed at the pathcing speed.

That's what I don't understand, the previews showed a stable, working, game with the core features all implemented I could understand the constant CTDs and if there were memory leaks because of not testing on a variety of systems but the state of the game at release made no sense since features we saw working that weren't even ones officially removed (like neutral factions) aren't there. (even when considering the old build Steam uploaded)

Needless to say this is the last Kerberos game I'm buying at release. They pulled an Elemental, and Stardock is similarly on my ****list.
Ace
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
As I said - something happened that nuked the code. Definately not planned. No one would sabotage themselves like this.

Me? I'm buying ever Kerberos game at full price. They make AMAZING games (once fully patched) and their commitment is second to none. Hence, why I support them.

EDIT: Aaandd another patch. If I counted properly, that's 6 patches and 2-3 hotfixes! In barely 2 weeks!
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Offline Mikes

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
EDIT: Aaandd another patch. If I counted properly, that's 6 patches and 2-3 hotfixes! In barely 2 weeks!

My inner cynic is saying "yeah well, the more bugs you include the more you can patch!!!"

Still will propably half a year+ until we get a stable, playable game... if we're lucky. ;)

 

Offline Fury

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Maybe one day we'll hear the true story about what happened to SotS2.

In a movie.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
They announced the biggest patch on wensday.

The game should be fully fixed before Christmas....Maybe even before the end of this month (according to their estimates).
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Offline Spoon

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Quote from: NGTM-1R
Granted, I have little respect for the designer, regarding them as totally inept at game design, totally inept at community interface (lolMecron) and totally inept at programming. But that's really not relevant.
Lol same here.
That aside I did have a bit of fun with Sots1, flawed as it may have been on many points. It lacked enough depth for me to keep playing for long. (&abusable stupid A.I.)
Sots2 completely slipped under my radar, only learned about its release after seeing this topic. So I looked it up on steam to see if there was a demo. Then I read this thread and the lists of bugs and now I wouldn't even wanna pirate it and waste my time on this crashfest. :p (I've had quite enough of bug ridden incomplete bull**** after empire total war thank you very much)
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
So do my Meson Projectors in PD mode work yet?

(Answer, no, missiles are invincible.)
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Offline Spoon

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Having read a bit more about this whole fiasco, I'm pretty sure this wasn't just a "Oops, we uploaded a beta build. Silly us!" as Mecron's 'apology' almost seems to imply. Having seen the lists of endless bugs and unimplented features, there is no way the dev team didn't know how incomplete their game was when they threw it up for sale. The blog of that lady that writes the lore and stuff seems to indicate that the dev team was already in some kind of (money?) trouble with developers leaving the team and the fact that she compared this release with a caesarean section (or something along those lines). This was a forced premature released because they were most likely out of funds.
While the support they get on the forum from a few members is charming, its pretty surely not going to compensate for the massive amount of lost sales caused by the terrible reviews and bad mouth to mouth this release have gave them. They seem determined to support this game proper though, props for that.

For me personally, I just get a good chuckle out of this. I fondly recall Mecron saying at one time that he felt SotS1 was ready for release a few months before it actually got released. Then we saw on release how ready the game truely was. Needing a patch on release day was a pretty good indicator.
How ready was SotS2, Mecron?  :p
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Offline Ace

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Re: SOTS 2 overtakes modern warfare 3 in Steam Top sales
Well, I'm not so sure if it's tied to needing the money because they haven't done the retail boxed version yet.

From what I can tell:
Some team members left who were tied to coding (personal leave for family/temporary it sounds like)
Mecron more or less went on about how few people were going to buy it on Steam and it although unpolished the hard core fans would be the ones playing it. They were scared and surprised at its actual sales.
A lot of features were disabled during the short beta in October due to stability issues. (so techs and the systems they're re-implementing)

Most of the problems look like they're tied to quickly gutting out core systems in the name of stability and then slowly building it back up.

So my thoughts:
They were on schedule but the team members leaving meant they had a coder shortage.
Paradox thought the game looked good and pushed for release. (and by all accounts it *looks* good at a glance, but then you realize everything under the good is broken)
Mecron went "well it'll be a bit buggy, let's do a limited Steam release"
Beta hits, holy crap it's broken! MARS2 doesn't run on anything but our testing platforms!
Systems get gutted so they can release it with minimal crashes and build it back up "well we can patch it... crap"
...and massive release contrary to expectations and huge cluster****

Basically, it sounds like the stuff Interplay pulled. All they cared about was how it looked on the surface (Klingon Academy) and even if core systems were broken they'd push for release. (or the opposite everything worked but the graphics sucked they'd scream murder)

Anyway I'm refusing to touch this game until mid December, I've wasted too much time trying to play something that's utterly broken.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 05:43:12 pm by Ace »
Ace
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