Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Kosh on December 02, 2011, 08:32:37 pm
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From what I recall of the Darkest Hour in my last play through a while back, the Valerie came fairly close to destroying the Indus despite having no support and being pounded by UEF fighters. That makes me wonder, if it was just one on one, can a Diomedes match a Karuna?
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From what I recall of the Darkest Hour in my last play through a while back, the Valerie came fairly close to destroying the Indus despite having no support and being pounded by UEF fighters. That makes me wonder, if it was just one on one, can a Diomedes match a Karuna?
We've tested this in BPmulti, if the Diomedes can bring all 4 beams to bear (flying under the Karuna), then the karuna can't even put up a fight. If it gets even 2 beams, the Dio will still win. Best bet to to drop it in reverse and let the gauss cannons do their job.
EDIT: I've even flown a Dio right between a Karuna and a Sanctus, it gutted them both in no time flat.
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It's a pretty interesting fight actually. I believe the Karuna has a bit of a range advantage on the Diomedes, and can use reverse thrust. The Diomedes has to go broadside to be the most effective and cannot close distance while running perpendicular to the Karuna's flight path. I've seen the fight go both ways.
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IIRC Diomedes was pretty late addition to BP2 in its development stage, so it is entirely possible it packs a bit too much punch. Not saying it does or does not, only that it might have needed a bit more tweaking.
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A Karuna can easily down a Dio if its flown right and plays the the Karuna's advantages (turn speed, narrow, gauss range, faster, etc), its just if you do get in a broad side, or worse, fly over the Dio, You're gone before you can realize your mistake.
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It really comes down to placement, I think. The Karuna has the speed and range to dance just beyond the Dio's reach while pecking away with torpedoes but a close jump by the Dio will shred the Karuna in no time.
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I remember when I added a diomedes jumping between the Meridian and the two Karunas in Post Meridian coop. I had to add very strong guardianning logic to make sure the frigates would survive to jump out instead of getting gutted in literally a couple of seconds. Those things are scaring under the right circumstances. And this might be war, but with Steele, the right circumstances can become more likely than you'd think.
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I'm not sure if there's any basis for this, but it really seems like the TerSlashBlue spends a lot more time on target than the old green TerSlash does. Certainly contributes to the Diomedes being dangerous.
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Would it work if the Dio makes a barrel roll?
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Does the campaign Karuna have reverse thrust, or is that just the playable one?
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It does not, due to the fact that gliding capships are something the AI doesn't really have a handle on.
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Diomedes and Karunas are representitive of both factions capabilities. GTVA is close in, quickly deadly, and efficient, UEF is long ranged, disarms more than right out kills, and works close to home.
I'd be willing to bet that the Diomedes has more in terms of long-term endurance, fighter repair facilities, and subspace recharge time while the Karuna has a more powerful air wing, a faster real-space speed, and so on.
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It does not, due to the fact that gliding capships are something the AI doesn't really have a handle on.
Does that mean those abilities are canon?
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I'd been wondering about that. If I recall, in Delenda Est a lot less frigates would have died if they used reverse thrust and fired as they retreated. It seems like a major plot point was hung on bad AI.
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The Titan's forward beams have better range than anything on a Karuna or Sanctus so reverse thrusting would have been pointless. Since the frigates presumably wouldn't have had enough time to charge their jump drives even if they tried to flee, the best option remaining would have been to try to punch through to the Imperieuse's broadside where they at least stood a chance.
And half the Wargods captains have death wishes and wanted to ram the thing so hey.
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The Titan's forward beams have better range than anything on a Karuna or Sanctus so reverse thrusting would have been pointless. Since the frigates presumably wouldn't have had enough time to charge their jump drives even if they tried to flee, the best option remaining would have been to try to punch through to the Imperieuse's broadside where they at least stood a chance.
And half the Wargods captains have death wishes and wanted to ram the thing so hey.
If they were going to try to ram anything, it should have been the Carthage. They were actually close enough for it to work for once.
I take the Katana's capabilities in TBI as non-canon, as:
1) The Katana jams slashing beams in TBI, which we're repeatedly told is impossible over the course of the campaign;
2) Aristeia, which occurs several weeks after the fall of Jupiter, is supposedly the first time the GTVA saw beam-jamming technology;
3) If the Katana can actually jam beams, Captain Gennady ends up looking pretty stupid when his ship gets skewered by the Imperieuse.
4) Ditto for not using afterburners when trying to charge across a ten-kilometer kill zone to ram the Imperieuse.
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Good points except for 2).
No GTVA ships warped out to report their findings and in the mission with the Presejet we learned that a Karuna can jam GTVA long range communication (and the Arcadia can probably too). So even if the GTVA got beam-jammed there the for the first time, with no survivers that information died with the present ships.
Serkr and the Hood on the other hand got out of there to tell the tale, which should catapult UEF AWACS right to the top of GTVA target priority lists in WiH2.
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There is something you're not taking into account : your jamming is only as good as the counter-jamming is bad. We know jamming can be forced through since the Hood will eventually LRBGreen the Sanctuses in Aristeia if you don't take out its frontal beam first.
Beam jamming isn't an all-powerful force. Just like communication jamming, it's electronic warfare, with similar rules on the field. The ships in TBI might have been surprised, the Imperieuse sure wasn't.
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Guess the Feds should develop a jump inhibitor or something which prevents the Tevs for plotting escape jumps or not allowing them to jump in too close, so they could pick them of with Narayanas
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Guess the Feds should develop a jump inhibitor or something which prevents the Tevs for plotting escape jumps or not allowing them to jump in too close, so they could pick them of with Narayanas
the only way you can inhibit subspace jumps is by manipulating gravity if memory serves.
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There is something you're not taking into account : your jamming is only as good as the counter-jamming is bad. We know jamming can be forced through since the Hood will eventually LRBGreen the Sanctuses in Aristeia if you don't take out its frontal beam first.
Beam jamming isn't an all-powerful force. Just like communication jamming, it's electronic warfare, with similar rules on the field. The ships in TBI might have been surprised, the Imperieuse sure wasn't.
True, but with the Station, all the infrastructur and two Frigates present, I think they got more than enough juice to jam the GTVA Corvettes in TBI, to make sure the GTVA doesn't learn of their ability to jam beams just yet.
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Good points except for 2).
No GTVA ships warped out to report their findings and in the mission with the Presejet we learned that a Karuna can jam GTVA long range communication (and the Arcadia can probably too). So even if the GTVA got beam-jammed there the for the first time, with no survivers that information died with the present ships.
Serkr and the Hood on the other hand got out of there to tell the tale, which should catapult UEF AWACS right to the top of GTVA target priority lists in WiH2.
Is it actually possible to destroy the Triteia in TBI? I know there's an event in the mission file to account for its destruction, but it's always escaped in my playthroughs.
woot i brought the thread back to diomedes vs karuna :p
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Guess the Feds should develop a jump inhibitor or something which prevents the Tevs for plotting escape jumps or not allowing them to jump in too close, so they could pick them of with Narayanas
the only way you can inhibit subspace jumps is by manipulating gravity if memory serves.
Star Wars type interdictors anyone? :nervous:
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Is it actually possible to destroy the Triteia in TBI? I know there's an event in the mission file to account for its destruction, but it's always escaped in my playthroughs.
woot i brought the thread back to diomedes vs karuna :p
Shoot at the engines, as always.
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Is it actually possible to destroy the Triteia in TBI? I know there's an event in the mission file to account for its destruction, but it's always escaped in my playthroughs.
woot i brought the thread back to diomedes vs karuna :p
Shoot at the engines, as always.
Wait, does the capship command script allow for subsystem targeting? Or do you just need to position your ship so that shots at the Triteia are likely to hit the engines?
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Latter
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Guess the Feds should develop a jump inhibitor or something which prevents the Tevs for plotting escape jumps or not allowing them to jump in too close, so they could pick them of with Narayanas
the only way you can inhibit subspace jumps is by manipulating gravity if memory serves.
Star Wars type interdictors anyone? :nervous:
heh. no. not in freespace/bp-verse in any case.
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Manipulating gravity on such a scale isn't exactly a small feat. We know the Vishnans use very strong gravity forces instead of magnetic bottles for their beams, and Knossos portals probably manipulate gravity to some degree (we know gravity is a major data in subspace theory). We know the GTVA and the Feds master gravity to some degree (Sol Portal, intra-system jump gates, gravity aboard ships), but it's not exactly an energy-cheap technology (we know UEF capships use rotators to save reactor power).
Since intra-system subspace requires a gravity field to operate, you'd need to cancel the gravitational interactions on a specific ship to prevent it from entering subspace... in theory.
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Maybe you could play with (gravity?) sensor readings so they can't reliably plot a jump. Just plotting jumps isn't trivial in BP either.
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It was just a thought, after replaying Homeworld ^^
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Maybe you could play with (gravity?) sensor readings so they can't reliably plot a jump. Just plotting jumps isn't trivial in BP either.
That could be an alternative, but then, crash jumps come into play. It would still remain interesting tactically since crash jumps aren't exactly a safe procedure (risk of ending in low sun orbit or other displeasant surprises, risk of jump drive or even reactor failure, and in the best of cases, need for the jump drive to recharge and hence vulnerability to enemy strikes unless you're equipped with sprint jump drives).
It was just a thought, after replaying Homeworld ^^
HW > *
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Diomedes and Karunas are representitive of both factions capabilities. GTVA is close in, quickly deadly, and efficient, UEF is long ranged, disarms more than right out kills, and works close to home.
I'd be willing to bet that the Diomedes has more in terms of long-term endurance, fighter repair facilities, and subspace recharge time while the Karuna has a more powerful air wing, a faster real-space speed, and so on.
Hammer, nail.
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About gravity and jump intradiction topic. I think that cost-effective way for jump intradiction would be some form of strong but short gravity pulse/ping that would screw jump calculation and jump process which would cause jump calculation distrubtion (aka good variant), blind jump (risky variant) or big dammage to the jump drive (very bad variant).
Obviously such short pulse would have to be used during target jump drive charge up, or (for continous jump intrediction) ship would have to be dedicated intredictor with paper thin armor, size of a corvette and AWAC-class arnaments. Because option B would be both time consuming and expensive I think that UEF would reconfigure their AWACS to use those pulse, while GTVA might have some dedicated intredictors as a secret projects.
The obvious side effect of such pulse would be that all jumpdrives in range would be temporary distrupted so if you use the pulse then your ships jumpdrive would be also affected... unless you find a way to make a precise gravity wave, instead of 360-360 pulse (and I'm quite sure such thing would require dedicated intredictor construction instead of typical AWACS).
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Very good post Mr. Who, and along the lines of something we were thinking during development - we had the Gefs using modified intersystem gates as interdictors.
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Bonus points if they're Homeworld-ish gravwell generators that have the side effect of screwing with fighter movement.
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Hey, that could be a good use of the unused "planet" code--have gravwells screw with fighter sensors to the point that they think they're crashing.
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It sounds like the sort of thing that would work great in a strategy game, but would just be a source of frustration in a fighter sim. Effects that increase challenge by making the player various degrees of impotent generally do not make for fun gameplay.
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It sounds like the sort of thing that would work great in a strategy game, but would just be a source of frustration in a fighter sim. Effects that increase challenge by making the player various degrees of impotent generally do not make for fun gameplay.
I seem to recall quite a lack of shields, sensors, or even shield penetrating weps in FS1. It added to the "Oh ****" effect quite nicely.
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I recall three missions without sensors, and four where you're fighting a shielded opponent and didn't have shields yourself. And you had shield-penetrating dumbfire missiles in all of them.
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And I doubt whatever would screw up the fighter would be in all missions.
Point is, you are incrediby crippled for the beginning of FS1, you have little to no power to take down your enemy. If you're going to complain about something that could be used once and a while to make things interesting, be sure to complain at every little thing that could ever give you a small disadvantage to the already handicapped AI.
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Handicapped? AI don't need no handicap. Go and try to engage the Imperiuse in Delenda Est and see what happens.
That aside, even though you start out crippled in FS1, you consistently become more powerful as you advance. That's just textbook game design--work with the player to overcome obstacles, not against them with more obstacles. You'll note also that missions without sensors are almost invariably self-playing because the AI isn't affected and thus your wingmen perform all the real work for you while you just load Furies up a Shaitan's backside for a bonus.
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Yep. There's a reason that shielding technology goes from "quickie scans of Shivan crates" to "standard issue on every Terran and Vasudan fighter" in the space of less than a week.
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Handicapped? AI don't need no handicap. Go and try to engage the Imperiuse in Delenda Est and see what happens.
If you dont play on insane, the AI is handicapped. :p
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Go try to engage the Imperieuse on Very Easy and see what happens. :p
Heck, play "My Brother, My Enemy". The AI is perfectly capable of challenging the player without the player being gimped.
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Go try to engage the Imperieuse on Very Easy and see what happens. :p
Heck, play "My Brother, My Enemy". The AI is perfectly capable of challenging the player without the player being gimped.
Go play the first mission of FS2 on Very Easy, see what happens.
It would be a once and a while thing, and you're pinning it on the hardest missions made with the most advanced AI. Doesn't change the fact the AI is handicapped at all dificuties but insane.
As a side note, I'm pretty sure the Imperieuse has special armor and turret armor because QD kept kicking the **** out of it. AI has nothing to do with the Imperieuse winning. :D
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Imperieuse's fighter cover have Little Devil AI. Which means they're all as good in Very Easy as they are in Insane. Of course you get buffs in any other difficulty than insane, but other than that those AI aren't handicapped at all.
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AI has nothing to do with the Imperieuse winning. :D
Yes it does. I don't think anyone ever managed to get to past the Imperieuse fighter escort. (could be wrong)
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AI has nothing to do with the Imperieuse winning. :D
Yes it does. I don't think anyone ever managed to get to past the Imperieuse fighter escort. (could be wrong)
So if those fighters were gone, the Imperieuse could be defeated? If not, then the fighter AI is only icing on the cake and has nothing at all to do with the Imperieuse killing everything it's meant to.
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Go play the first mission of FS2 on Very Easy, see what happens.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your point is. I offered "My Brother, My Enemy" as evidence that it is possible to make missions where the AI can give you a serious run for your money without the mission handicapping you. The fact that there are missions elsewhere that do not take advantage of BP's improved AI profiles in no way invalidates anything I said.
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Go play the first mission of FS2 on Very Easy, see what happens.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your point is. I offered "My Brother, My Enemy" as evidence that it is possible to make missions where the AI can give you a serious run for your money without the mission handicapping you. The fact that there are missions elsewhere that do not take advantage of BP's improved AI profiles in no way invalidates anything I said.
Beam on the Carthage can't be destroyed, Imperieuse cant be debeamed, and according to matth, Imperieuse's escort always uses insane regardless of actual difficulty.
They handicap you in plenty of ways by making things invincible, and the AI again has nothing to do with the above.
And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal. Most anything that you need to kill is not generally as big a deal as things you're meant to avoid.
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If memory serves the AI on the Imperieuse fighters was beefed up precisely because there was a time when it the player could defang the Imperieuse. The beams themselves are also guardianed, but that's more to stop the frigates themselves from rolling it; the fighters keep the player from ever getting close enough in the first place.
And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal. Most anything that you need to kill is not generally as big a deal as things you're meant to avoid.
You don't need to kill them. Play that mission again and let yourself be shot down.
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And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal.
*shrugs* You're a better pilot than I, then. Clearly you would have had more fun if your Uhlan had started handling like an Ursa in the middle of the fight.
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If memory serves the AI on the Imperieuse fighters was beefed up precisely because there was a time when it the player could defang the Imperieuse. The beams themselves are also guardianed, but that's more to stop the frigates themselves from rolling it; the fighters keep the player from ever getting close enough in the first place.
Doesn't really matter, you just said the turrets are guardianed. It doesn't matter why, just that they are. The fighter screen has zero impact on the successful outcome as you would 'lose' even if they weren't there.
You don't need to kill them. Play that mission again and let yourself be shot down.
Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.
And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal.
Clearly you would have had more fun if your Uhlan had started handling like an Ursa in the middle of the fight.
About gravity and jump intradiction topic. I think that cost-effective way for jump intradiction would be some form of strong but short gravity pulse/ping that would screw jump calculation and jump process which would cause jump calculation distrubtion (aka good variant), blind jump (risky variant) or big dammage to the jump drive (very bad variant).
Obviously such short pulse would have to be used during target jump drive charge up, or (for continous jump intrediction) ship would have to be dedicated intredictor with paper thin armor, size of a corvette and AWAC-class arnaments. Because option B would be both time consuming and expensive I think that UEF would reconfigure their AWACS to use those pulse, while GTVA might have some dedicated intredictors as a secret projects.
The obvious side effect of such pulse would be that all jumpdrives in range would be temporary distrupted so if you use the pulse then your ships jumpdrive would be also affected... unless you find a way to make a precise gravity wave, instead of 360-360 pulse (and I'm quite sure such thing would require dedicated intredictor construction instead of typical AWACS).
Where, exactly, are you reading real-space fighter movement being modified in any way? Saturn didn't effect your flight, but it sure as hell made the Carthage drop out of subspace and prevent it from leaving. That's the exact effect hes referring to. Just like Interdictor cruisers in Star Wars.
If you are refering to Aesaar's post, then its really no worse then losing just about everything in the dense nebula. We're back to moderation. It wouldn't be all the time, and probably not even for a full mission. It's something to make the game interesting.
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Do you need to kill them to continue?
naw
If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.
Emphasis mine.
Where, exactly, are you reading real-space fighter movement being modified in any way? Saturn didn't effect your flight, but it sure as hell made the Carthage drop out of subspace and prevent it from leaving. That's the exact effect hes referring to. Just like Interdictor cruisers in Star Wars.
If you are refering to Aesaar's post, then its really no worse then losing just about everything in the dense nebula. We're back to moderation. It wouldn't be all the time, and probably not even for a full mission. It's something to make the game interesting.
Yep, been referring to Aesaar's post the entire time. Gravity-based jump interdiction would be really cool, and obviously has nothing to do with any of the points I've raised about gimping the player.
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Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.
I think you missed something about that mission. ;)
Status effects on players are often really tricky to pull off in game design that relies on a close interface between player action and gameplay reaction. Our design goals for R2 focus on giving the player an expanded toolset, moreso than R1's strategy of putting the player in a single niche of the combined-arms space.
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Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.
I think you missed something about that mission. ;)
I pulled it up on the wiki, which sure enough said something along the lines of "kill them before they kill that thing!" and I remembered killing them, so... *shrug*
From Wiki:
There are two ways to go about this. You can either hold at the start point and draw them to you, or charge them in range of the Dea Icaunis (who still has her armament). Either way, you'll need to destroy them all to proceed.
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Destroy them all to proceed within the mission, to the point where the transport warps with the other SOC fighters.
But if you get shot down, you don't die.
You get a debriefing telling you that Laporte managed to eject, was ligthly wounded and that the SOC managed to extract the prisoner from the Sanctus, after which the camapaign continues the same way as if you had won the mission.
While I heard from some people that they intentionally lost the mission for sentimental reasons, I for one got splashed by them because their strength caught me off-guard the first time I played the mission.
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Breaking news: Articles on wikis are not always correct or complete.
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Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.
I think you missed something about that mission. ;)
I pulled it up on the wiki, which sure enough said something along the lines of "kill them before they kill that thing!" and I remembered killing them, so... *shrug*
From Wiki:
There are two ways to go about this. You can either hold at the start point and draw them to you, or charge them in range of the Dea Icaunis (who still has her armament). Either way, you'll need to destroy them all to proceed.
just play the mission and let yourself get shot down.
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Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.
I think you missed something about that mission. ;)
I pulled it up on the wiki, which sure enough said something along the lines of "kill them before they kill that thing!" and I remembered killing them, so... *shrug*
From Wiki:
There are two ways to go about this. You can either hold at the start point and draw them to you, or charge them in range of the Dea Icaunis (who still has her armament). Either way, you'll need to destroy them all to proceed.
You realize you're talking to the person who FREDded the mission, right? Like I said: I think you missed something about the mission.
Also, I'm not...totally sure what this argument is about right now.
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Ummmm, Sanctus vs Aeolus side-topic. I can't remember if i ever saw an enagement betwixt those two in R1.
I'd quite like it :yes:
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Also, I'm not...totally sure what this argument is about right now.
Tevs vs Feds GO
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FEDS RULE TEVS DROOL.
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NUH UH! GTVA IS TEH COOLEST! WE FIGHT SHIVANS AND DOESN'T AFRAID OF ANYTHING!
Also, Sanctus kills Aeolus easily. But that's because the Sanctus a corvette. Deimos kills Sanctus.
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Gimme the best of both sides :)
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NUH UH! GTVA IS TEH COOLEST! WE FIGHT SHIVANS AND DOESN'T AFRAID OF ANYTHING!
:nod: ;7
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The Sanctus would be a corvette if the UEF had invented that designation, and will maul the Aeolus every time. The Sanctus just gets a bad reputation because its WiH appearances are pretty much a montage of terrible luck and questionable decision-making.
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The Sanctus would be a corvette if the UEF had invented that designation, and will maul the Aeolus every time. The Sanctus just gets a bad reputation because its WiH appearances are pretty much a montage of terrible luck and questionable decision-making.
Maybe the one exception I can think of is the Vatican in Darkest Hour, which can (at least as of late development) make a really big difference in the mission if it acquits itself well against the first Deimos and gets a bit of fighter cover. It'll attack the SSM AWACS and can even make it through the fight with the Valerie -- with good luck and good cover it'll put rounds on target throughout the entire engagement.
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I always cover that dogged little bundle of love. I hate to lose an underdog.
In fact reason I failed to jump out the first time I played Apocalypse was because I had a compulsion to protect the Deimos and get the heroic bugger through or die trying.
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NUH UH! GTVA IS TEH COOLEST! WE FIGHT SHIVANS AND DOESN'T AFRAID OF ANYTHING!
:nod: ;7
I'm hoping the GTVA comes out ahead in WIH2. :)
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Hug.
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Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.
I think you missed something about that mission. ;)
I pulled it up on the wiki, which sure enough said something along the lines of "kill them before they kill that thing!" and I remembered killing them, so... *shrug*
From Wiki:
There are two ways to go about this. You can either hold at the start point and draw them to you, or charge them in range of the Dea Icaunis (who still has her armament). Either way, you'll need to destroy them all to proceed.
You realize you're talking to the person who FREDded the mission, right? Like I said: I think you missed something about the mission.
Also, I'm not...totally sure what this argument is about right now.
Not really argument, just showing where the logic came from.
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Can you show as a WIP? Perhaps in another thread?
Certainly.
Wasn't sure where to post this. I hope this is acceptable (Could a mod move this if it isn't?).
Back to the Diomedes, I had mentioned I was making a redesign.
So a few WiP shots:
(http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5167/gtcvdiomedes1.png)
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1897/gtcvdiomedes4.png)
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5358/gtcvdiomedes5.png)
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7275/gtcvdiomedes2.png)
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/517/gtcvdiomedes3.png)
Textures are mainly from the blueplanet and blueplanet2 VPs, with a few from HW2 thrown in (the engines and turret rings, specifically). Do note that the actual hull plating is the same as the one used on most of the Chimera and Bellerophon, it's just much less pronounced. Turret are the same ones as on the other corvettes (though I UV mapped the cannons). AO and Lighting is baked in.
I had a lot of difficulty making a decent looking front end, and after making and UV mapping 3 different ones, I decided to just do what I was familiar with and made a Homeworld-ish one, which I'm finally happy with.
There are a few differences from the current Dio beyond the appearance. The rear STerPulse was moved to the lower front battery for the simple reason that its field of fire was very, very poor in its old position. Seemed odd.
There are 2 additional Terran Turret 2s, one above and one below the engines. This is because 4 TT2s just isn't enough to cover most of the ship.
Last, there's one additional AAAf located just above the fighter bay. This is because a fighter bay represents a large gap in a ship's armor and so deserves to be well defended. Its field of fire is very restricted by the engine section, so it shouldn't affect balance too much.
The beam cannons and top STerPulse cannons have absolutely identical coverage.
The texture isn't quite done. The big things left are the normal map, which is coming along, and actually getting it ingame, which I have no experience doing, so that should be a learning opportunity.
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That is a nice-looking redesign.
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This...is...sweet:)
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Like it a lot!
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(http://aytm.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/VOC-EFM.jpg)
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It looks like a frigate from HW2. Not that it's a bad thing, Inferno uses HW2-inspired designs all the time.
The only thing it's missing is the "dock row" under it's nose. Without it, it won't be any good as a Diomedes.
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Oh, ****, yes. Please maintain all the dockpoints from the original Diomedes, those are very important to some capabilities in R2 (external drone racks)
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I admit I hadn't noticed those. Is placement especially important? Because I could easily fit them either near the white bracings behind the conning tower, or on the underside of the wings (which could definitely use something to break up the big flat area). It would also help if you could give me an idea of how big these drones are going to be (Perseus, Uriel, Ursa sized?)
This also just made me realise I forgot the missile launchers. Must fix up a VLS big enough to fire Supernovas.
It looks like a frigate from HW2. Not that it's a bad thing, Inferno uses HW2-inspired designs all the time.
The Hiigaran Flak Frigate was precisely what I was looking at when redesigning the nose for the fourth time.
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Model is pretty ballin', I don't really have any criticisms about it. Keep it up.
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Beautiful. Although, I will probably miss the asymmetry for a while. Also it looks pretty UEF-ish with those textures, somehow. :P
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Makes sense, since a couple of the textures I used are UEF textures (uefplate.dds, specifically, which you can see on the nose and the beam cannon housings). But the biggest reason is probably that current GTVA capital ships are all tilemapped, and the plating tiles all have very prominent seams between plates. I used the same tiles, but as a much less prominent overlay, so the seams are much less obvious. Observe:
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8159/diotilemed2.png)
This is the one used on the Chimera and Bellerophon (atmuch lower resolution).
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9966/diotilemed1.png)
This is the one I'm using for the Dio's bare armor.
If/when I HTL the Raynor (which'll take a long while), expect its textures to have a similar appearance.
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I would only suggest that the beam emitters be put closer to either end of the craft, seems a bit weird that they are so close together. What with those four emitters being everything on the ship. You could still stick pretty close to the original and make it look more sensical.
e: I should probably add this is just me trying to be semi constructive, this will contrast so sharply with the rest of the GTVA ships that the diomedes would go from the ugliest ship in the game to the prettiest on the GTVA side of the war. Indisputably. May be some contention with the UEF ships but yeah that thing is epic.
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Well, IMHO it would be good to make it look GTVA-ish instead, no matter how great the UEF looks.
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Looks pretty GTVA-ish to me (and pretty damn cool for that matter :) )
With the harder lines it does remind me a bit of the Galaxy carrier, which also fits in with Stratcomm's fleet quite well.
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Well, IMHO it would be good to make it look GTVA-ish instead, no matter how great the UEF looks.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the GTVA took some inspiration from some successful UEF designs for their new designs. The Diomedes was only deployed after the events of AoA after all, and is arguably very similar in role and function to the Karuna.
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It takes more than a few months to design and roll out a new ship class. That said, I do agree that this redesign fits with the GTVA fleet we have, this Diomedes is obviously closer to the Raynor than the Titan in terms of design, which works just as well.
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It takes more than a few months to design and roll out a new ship class. That said, I do agree that this redesign fits with the GTVA fleet we have, this Diomedes is obviously closer to the Raynor than the Titan in terms of design, which works just as well.
Just chiming in to say that the time it takes to design something really depends on a lot of things. I wouldn't underestimate the speed of a rolling military-industrial complex. Nearing the end of WWII, some notable designs and improvements happened with lightning quickness. In particular, arguably the most successful, definitely one of the most beautiful, and certainly the most popular (here in the U.S.) aircraft, the P-51, went from "Hey North American, we need a new fighter that can escort our bombers," to prototype in about 100 days.
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Yeah, there are ships in BP that were turned around in a really quick window - I'm not totally sure off the top of my head, but weren't the TEI Wave 2 fighters either designed or hastily adapted to fight the UEF?
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I admit I hadn't noticed those. Is placement especially important? Because I could easily fit them either near the white bracings behind the conning tower, or on the underside of the wings (which could definitely use something to break up the big flat area). It would also help if you could give me an idea of how big these drones are going to be (Perseus, Uriel, Ursa sized?)
I think that it'd be good if they were placed near the bow. I don't know how important the placement is, but there might be situations where it could be nice to have it preserved.
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Hastily adapted, I think we said.
Putting a new fighter design into service, especially if it was already past the prototype stage, will take less time than getting a new Corvette design approved, built, crewed, and deployed. This isn't WW2, and a Diomedes, which by itself is nearly a kilometer in length, is probably a more significant investment than a Cruiser or Destroyer was back then.
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I admit I hadn't noticed those. Is placement especially important? Because I could easily fit them either near the white bracings behind the conning tower, or on the underside of the wings (which could definitely use something to break up the big flat area). It would also help if you could give me an idea of how big these drones are going to be (Perseus, Uriel, Ursa sized?)
I think that it'd be good if they were placed near the bow. I don't know how important the placement is, but there might be situations where it could be nice to have it preserved.
Keep the placement if at all possible, and please, please keep all the subsystem and turret names EXACTLY the same. This is super important.
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It takes more than a few months to design and roll out a new ship class. That said, I do agree that this redesign fits with the GTVA fleet we have, this Diomedes is obviously closer to the Raynor than the Titan in terms of design, which works just as well.
Just chiming in to say that the time it takes to design something really depends on a lot of things. I wouldn't underestimate the speed of a rolling military-industrial complex. Nearing the end of WWII, some notable designs and improvements happened with lightning quickness. In particular, arguably the most successful, definitely one of the most beautiful, and certainly the most popular (here in the U.S.) aircraft, the P-51, went from "Hey North American, we need a new fighter that can escort our bombers," to prototype in about 100 days.
Also, the FS1 intro cutscene was on 7 January 2335, and "Good Luck" was on 29 March 2335. During that time, the GTA went from unshielded Apollos armed with ML-16s to Ursas with shields, intersystem jump capability, and the Harbinger torpedo. That said, capital ship development stayed completely stagnant during that time period.
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but i don't want a replacement for the diomedes... :(
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Keep the placement if at all possible, and please, please keep all the subsystem and turret names EXACTLY the same. This is super important.
Acknowledged. Any word on the drone size? There's a suitable area near the bow, but if they're the size of an Ursa or Vajradhara, I'm not sure it'll work. A picture of one would help in making the dockpoint more than a simple circle, but if you'd rather not reveal that right now, I completely understand.
I'd personally prefer the docks under the wings, but I'll defer to you. :)
I would only suggest that the beam emitters be put closer to either end of the craft, seems a bit weird that they are so close together. What with those four emitters being everything on the ship. You could still stick pretty close to the original and make it look more sensical.
I modelled the beam cannon layout after the starboard side of the current model, where they're very close together. I find it contrasts the Deimos' spread out firepower quite nicely.
For me, the real establishing moment for the Diomedes wasn't the Valerie or Triteia, it was the Medea jumping in and shredding Torpedo Two with its starboard battery. I wanted this version to look very similar when doing that. Also makes it look like the beams are linked to the same fire control. If I could, I'd make both beams do the exact same movement when slashing.
The other reason is that I'm really not keen on redoing the UV map for that area again. :p
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Keep the placement if at all possible, and please, please keep all the subsystem and turret names EXACTLY the same. This is super important.
Acknowledged. Any word on the drone size? There's a suitable area near the bow, but if they're the size of an Ursa or Vajradhara, I'm not sure it'll work. A picture of one would help in making the dockpoint more than a simple circle, but if you'd rather not reveal that right now, I completely understand.
I'd personally prefer the docks under the wings, but I'll defer to you. :)
The OpEval drone platforms are old, underused bomber hulls converted with plug-in cockpit systems rather than dedicated designs (yet) - I think just use the Zeus. maybe the Medusa, as your model.
We wanted a good reason to use lots of old cool HTLs that would otherwise never get a chance to fly in BP.
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Just measure the spacing on the original, and try to match it with your docks.
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Hastily adapted, I think we said.
Putting a new fighter design into service, especially if it was already past the prototype stage, will take less time than getting a new Corvette design approved, built, crewed, and deployed. This isn't WW2, and a Diomedes, which by itself is nearly a kilometer in length, is probably a more significant investment than a Cruiser or Destroyer was back then.
I understand your objections to the idea, but essentially, what I was trying to say is that it really depends on the effort. The allegory I made to the P-51 is still pretty accurate. After the Chimera and Bellerophon, the engineers had experience with the technology already, and they probably had a laundry list of requirements from the GTVA high command, after evaluating feedback from commanders in the field. It's also possible the hull design was for a different project already in the works, but got re-purposed to meet the needs of the new contract. We humans are capable of frightening levels of ingenuity when we're up against the wall.
OT: I love the new design, it actually reminds me a bit of certain variants of the Tengu from EVE Online. I'm looking forward to...staying the heck away from this thing in WIH2.
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I love the new design, espacially the nod to homeworld.
It looks like the little brother of the TEI capships.
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Hastily adapted, I think we said.
Putting a new fighter design into service, especially if it was already past the prototype stage, will take less time than getting a new Corvette design approved, built, crewed, and deployed. This isn't WW2, and a Diomedes, which by itself is nearly a kilometer in length, is probably a more significant investment than a Cruiser or Destroyer was back then.
I understand your objections to the idea, but essentially, what I was trying to say is that it really depends on the effort. The allegory I made to the P-51 is still pretty accurate. After the Chimera and Bellerophon, the engineers had experience with the technology already, and they probably had a laundry list of requirements from the GTVA high command, after evaluating feedback from commanders in the field. It's also possible the hull design was for a different project already in the works, but got re-purposed to meet the needs of the new contract. We humans are capable of frightening levels of ingenuity when we're up against the wall.
OT: I love the new design, it actually reminds me a bit of certain variants of the Tengu from EVE Online. I'm looking forward to...staying the heck away from this thing in WIH2.
The Nyx was apparently built ground up as a gunship killer which supports fast turnaround in at least some cases.
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Eh, I can see it being originally designed to hunt down and murder shivan bombers, so it's not like it would be a complete ground up rebuild.
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The Nyx is also prohibitively expensive. It's possible that the Tevs rushed it into production before its engineers could optimize it--Nyx Mk.II anyone? :shaking:
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Eh, I can see it being originally designed to hunt down and murder shivan bombers, so it's not like it would be a complete ground up rebuild.
Fresh from the drawing board, the advanced GTF Nyx is one of the newest GTVA heavy fighters. It was commissioned in 2385 as a response to increasing fighter losses to superior UEF fighter designs. A dedicated gunship killer, with heavy armour and firepower, this fighter has become the bane of many a UEF pilot. It marries the Erinyes' eight gun banks with the agility and versatility of the Perseus interceptor, producing a sterling design that has become a pilot favorite. Extraordinary cost, however, has slowed its planned deployment.
The TEI Wave 1 ships were the 'oh ****, let's just get fighters out there to shoot down Shivan bombers, lots of fighters, kulases, auroras, whatever the **** it takes'
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On the last point I have to disagree. With all the complex and expansive sensor equipment the Aurora carries, I highy doubt the GTVA would just throw droves of them against the Shivans.
Not to mention the rather poor manouverbility.
It's more suited to be a mini-AWACS or maybe a command ship than a front line brawler.
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The TEI Wave 1 ships were the 'oh ****, let's just get fighters out there to shoot down Shivan bombers, lots of fighters, kulases, auroras, whatever the **** it takes'
What definition would you give to Wave 2 (and Wave 3 though I'm not sure if there was one, I can't remember one way or the other)?
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On the last point I have to disagree. With all the complex and expansive sensor equipment the Aurora carries, I highy doubt the GTVA would just throw droves of them against the Shivans.
Not to mention the rather poor manouverbility.
It's more suited to be a mini-AWACS or maybe a command ship than a front line brawler.
It's a Myrmidon without the gigantic SHOOT ME design, I don't think I'd mind gunning up Shivans with it. The GTVA would probably field a few on most missions for SSM support as well.
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I would assume the amount and type of electronic warfare/sensor suite gear embarked on an Aurora can vary a great deal between each individual fighter and for each mission. The Aurora was probably designed to be produced or deployed with very few expensive hardware in cases where you'd only need guns in space.
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The TEI Wave 1 ships were the 'oh ****, let's just get fighters out there to shoot down Shivan bombers, lots of fighters, kulases, auroras, whatever the **** it takes'
What definition would you give to Wave 2 (and Wave 3 though I'm not sure if there was one, I can't remember one way or the other)?
I'd imagine the definition would be relatively the same, replacing Shivan with UEF and the fighter names as needed.
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On the last point I have to disagree. With all the complex and expansive sensor equipment the Aurora carries, I highy doubt the GTVA would just throw droves of them against the Shivans.
Not to mention the rather poor manouverbility.
It's more suited to be a mini-AWACS or maybe a command ship than a front line brawler.
It's fairly fast and you can stick Balors in the 4 gun bank for really high ROF. I'd say it's close to what the Apollo used to be: you can use it for quite a few things, but there's always a better ship (except for the sensor suite).
Also; getting a new model from a discussion thread = awesome. :D
The TEI Wave 1 ships were the 'oh ****, let's just get fighters out there to shoot down Shivan bombers, lots of fighters, kulases, auroras, whatever the **** it takes'
What definition would you give to Wave 2 (and Wave 3 though I'm not sure if there was one, I can't remember one way or the other)?
I'd imagine the definition would be relatively the same, replacing Shivan with UEF and the fighter names as needed.
'oh ****, let's just get fighters out there to shoot down Shivan bombers Uriels, lots of fighters, kulases Nyxes, auroras Atalantas, whatever the **** it takes'
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To sum up, fighters like the Kulas were designed to be cheap, expendable, very easily mass-produceable fighters to get more guns in space shooting at bombs, bombers and beam emitters. A perfectly logical way to counter the numerous but slow Shivan bombers and their numerous but weak fighter escort. That strategy is absolutely inadequate against the advanced and trained fighter corps of the UEF, and the sheer amount of anti-fighter firepower their capital ships can deploy. Wave 2 fighters were (more or less hastily) redesigned with that in mind, but they were originally, much like wave 1, designed with Shivan fighters and bombers in mind. Wave 2 fighters were kind of supposed to be to Wave 1 what the Seth or the Horus were to the Anubis.
For example, the Atalanta was (at least that's what I deduce from the tech description) originally supposed to be the interceptor class the Tevs have lacked of since the decommissioning of the Valk, a ship fast enough to close the distance with incoming bombers, and with enough firepower to kill them fast. It was then modified so it could be agile enough to deal with UEF fighters, making it more like a Perseus MkII (it is ironical that both the Perseus and the Atalanta were designed as interceptors but ended up in the space superiority role).
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For example, the Atalanta was (at least that's what I deduce from the tech description) originally supposed to be the interceptor class the Tevs have lacked of since the decommissioning of the Valk...
Matt. . . meet the Draco XD
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{Epicness}
I honestly don't like the lower spire on the front, but that's literally my only gripe. Kudos to you sir, you've done the GTVA a great service XD.
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By the way if you ever want to make fun of some ridiculous BP fluff just check out the BFRed tech description ;7
I'll give a meaningless round of applause to the first person to work out the kilotons-TNT yield of one BFRed shot. science fiction writers indeed have no sense of scale :nervous:
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hhhhhhahahahaha the relativistic kinetic energy of a BFRed discharge is higher than the pure annihilation energy of the matter in the discharge
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Assuming that "kilotons of plasma" means, specifically 2 kilotons, or 2,000 long tons then the BFRed will have a yield of 21,817 gigatons, very roughly, better just to call it 22,000.
I think, though I could be wrong, that this is more than enough to totally vape a planet.
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Show me your math! I want to make sure the relativity all worked out.
Taking your number as gospel though let's do some math:
5 gigatons on the Harbinger = 3200 damage.
22000 on the BFRed = 80850 damage
There seems to be a slight disparity here wherein each gigaton on the Harbinger gets you 640 points of damage but each gigaton of yield on the BFRed gets you 3 :nervous:
Might be a good place to pull a bit of the ol' retcon, these crazy yield numbers were always a bit goofy.
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Professorttuta!
Taking the conservative estimate that "kilotons" means "two kilotons", I get just under 4.5E24 joules.
For comparison, 5.5E24 joules of energy from the sun reach Earth each year (source: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#boom. We're a couple orders of magnitude north of wiping out the dinosaurs, here, but well short of actually blowing up a planet.)
EDIT:
2kton=2000tons=2000000kg.
((2000000kg)*(299732499.5m/s)^2)/(2*SQRT(1-(.9998^2/1^2)))=4.5E24J
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Show me your math! I want to make sure the relativity all worked out.
I honestly just used an online calculator - I cannot use calculus. I am disappoint self :(
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Show me your math! I want to make sure the relativity all worked out.
I honestly just used an online calculator - I cannot use calculus. I am disappoint self :(
The question doesn't require calculus. :p
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Assuming that "kilotons of plasma" means, specifically 2 kilotons, or 2,000 long tons then the BFRed will have a yield of 21,817 gigatons, very roughly, better just to call it 22,000.
I think, though I could be wrong, that this is more than enough to totally vape a planet.
Nope, the Chicxulub impact that likely killed the dinosaurs was 80-120 teratons.
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Show me your math! I want to make sure the relativity all worked out.
Taking your number as gospel though let's do some math:
5 gigatons on the Harbinger = 3200 damage.
22000 on the BFRed = 80850 damage
There seems to be a slight disparity here wherein each gigaton on the Harbinger gets you 640 points of damage but each gigaton of yield on the BFRed gets you 3 :nervous:
Might be a good place to pull a bit of the ol' retcon, these crazy yield numbers were always a bit goofy.
Maybe the Harbinger is 5gt vs. shields? :p
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I thought to find p. . . nevermind XD
I haven't taken a math class since high school.
And teratons O_O
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Upon some further checking and such, my calcs for the BFRed seem to indicate a yield of 560 gigatons per second. the beam lasts for 7 seconds so this results in 3 teratons, 960 gigatons. Since the Sathanas has four BFReds, this results in a total firepower of 15680 gigatons, or 15.680 teratons.
When I think about it, it's not really a wonder that I think a Sathanas might be able to fight a Star Destroyer. Ignoring the stupid KLUNE WARRS crap and the positively, absolutely HORRID EU, evidence from the movies seems to suggest that warsie ships typically give out single digit teraton yields for their shields and their guns.
Oh and Mars? You want to utterly vape a planet to the point of utter annihilation? Think yottatons. Death Star level.
That kind of firepower is sufficient to destroy a large portion of the planet's mass and scatter the rest.
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Upon some further checking and such, my calcs for the BFRed seem to indicate a yield of 560 gigatons per second. the beam lasts for 7 seconds so this results in 3 teratons, 960 gigatons. Since the Sathanas has four BFReds, this results in a total firepower of 15680 gigatons, or 15.680 teratons.
When I think about it, it's not really a wonder that I think a Sathanas might be able to fight a Star Destroyer. Ignoring the stupid KLUNE WARRS crap and the positively, absolutely HORRID EU, evidence from the movies seems to suggest that warsie ships typically give out single digit teraton yields for their shields and their guns.
you havent been to spacebattles.com 's "VS Debates" section. in short, no. thanks to their lovely "ICS", we cant do ****, because its canon.
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EU is f*cked up. If the pea shooters on a tie fighter have megaton yields then why the f*ck do they need to build a death star in the first place? The longer you avoid mentioning specific stats in sci-fi the less f*cked up things will be.
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Of all the reasons to build a death star, "because I need to" is probably among the worst.
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why are we talking about death stars and star wars?
and what the hell is EU?
:wtf:
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why are we talking about death stars and star wars?
see the last page
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Or to cut it short:
BFRed damage in gigatonns-> mention of a site where the same was done for Star Wars ships-> current state.
And EU, in regard to Star Wars, means Extended Universe, which includes pretty much every commercial product beyond the six actual films and probably the crappy Clone Wars animation series, though I'm not sure about that one. In other words Star Wars EU is all those games, books and comics that don't just recount the films.
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i've actually made some calcs for the bfred's damage output, based off of the harb's 5GT statement... if i can be arsed i might give it a shot again. in short, bfred's are scary powerful. no need to fluff it up even more.
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Also, the FS1 intro cutscene was on 7 January 2335, and "Good Luck" was on 29 March 2335. During that time, the GTA went from unshielded Apollos armed with ML-16s to Ursas with shields, intersystem jump capability, and the Harbinger torpedo. That said, capital ship development stayed completely stagnant during that time period.
Many of the new technologies and such introduced had been stated or implied as having already been in development, namely the Ursa and Harbinger.
EDIT: **** what, why did this thread not load onto the last page? :|
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So the model is pretty much complete, LoDs, debris and all. All that's left is finalising the location of the drone racks, and I'd like to get an opinion before I re-bake the AO.
Option 1: The issue is that the position near the bow doesn't work for 6 docks per side. I can fit 4, but the other two would seriously screw with the #1 ventral turret's firing arc. So I'd need to put them somewhere else.
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1536/gtcvdiomedes6.png)
Option 2: The alternative (and my preferred option) is this:
(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2082/gtcvdiomedes8.png)
It looks better, and makes sense if you look at the racks as an "after market" addition, put where there's space.
And yes, those are Zeuses and Medusas. I could space the racks out a little more and they'd even fit Ursas.
Thoughts?
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...
Thoughts?
The images 404 for me.
e: Now that I look back, the texture images and stuff that loaded before are dead too. The hell? I'm thinking this may be localized to myself at this point.
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I can see the images just fine.
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Christ that does look inspiring.
I'm happy with the alternative option, myself.
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I realy like the position at the...wings, but is it possible to mount the drones at the sides of the prow, in front of the beam cannons?
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Not all of them. It's a possible location for option 1's missing two, but it honestly doesn't look very good. It breaks up the clean lines in a way I really don't like.
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I am on board with your preference
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One thing. Didn't these racks mount RBCs or docked bigger ships at some point? In the original models, they're fairly normal-looking docking rings.
Also, they're still a very big departure from the current Diomedes. I'm afraid it might not be good for a drop-in replacement in it's current state.
Maybe moving the racks to the front, to the bottom slope at the bow and making them look less like claws and more like docks would help.
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You realize the original "Diomedes" wasn't intended for BP to begin with, right ? It's perfectly normal that this one gets new stuff adapted to the BP setting.
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Also, they're still a very big departure from the current Diomedes. I'm afraid it might not be good for a drop-in replacement in it's current state.
It'll work fine in BP.
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You realize the original "Diomedes" wasn't intended for BP to begin with, right ? It's perfectly normal that this one gets new stuff adapted to the BP setting.
This one is intended for BP though, and I'm not sure if racks like this will work in all situations BP uses them in. Though The_E says they do, so I'll just believe him on this one.
Anyway, if you're going with the racks, you may consider animating them, as animations on docking now work as they should.
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Or you go with a normal dock point and model some sort of docked launchpad, which hase these docking clamps?
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It certainly would be best if those clamps can be switched on or off. Either as an untargetable, destroyable subsystem or like cirzza suggested, by making them "normal" docking points and having a seperate model for the clamp, which is docked "between" the Diomedes and the drone, rather than making them part of the Diomedes model itself.
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Or just have Diomedes#Drone or something just as simple, with a separate model. Then you could switch them on and off on a per-mission basis just as easily, without having to worry about complications arising from daisy chaining docks like that.
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Scotty's solution would be the easiest, if you want to do versions with and without the clamps. I'm not too worried about it, though, so if you just want to do the with-clamps version that will be perfectly fine with the team.
You are awesome.
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I could also add an airlock dockpoint, because right now, if you ever wanted a transport to dock, there's nowhere for it to do so but the drone racks. This is true of the current model as well, but it's not as noticeable for obvious reasons.
I'll go with Scotty's solution. Nice and simple. Animation is beyond me ATM. When I get this ship ingame (which I hope to get done by the end of the week), it'll the first time I've done it in FS2. Hoping that goes well.
And thanks for all the praise and criticism. It's very appreciated. :)
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A transport dockpoint would be awesome.