[qwadtep]

Handicapped? AI don't need no handicap. Go and try to engage the Imperiuse in Delenda Est and see what happens.

That aside, even though you start out crippled in FS1, you consistently become more powerful as you advance. That's just textbook game design--work with the player to overcome obstacles, not against them with more obstacles. You'll note also that missions without sensors are almost invariably self-playing because the AI isn't affected and thus your wingmen perform all the real work for you while you just load Furies up a Shaitan's backside for a bonus.

[LordPomposity]

Yep. There's a reason that shielding technology goes from "quickie scans of Shivan crates" to "standard issue on every Terran and Vasudan fighter" in the space of less than a week.

[KyadCK]

Handicapped? AI don't need no handicap. Go and try to engage the Imperiuse in Delenda Est and see what happens.

If you dont play on insane, the AI is handicapped. 

[LordPomposity]

Go try to engage the Imperieuse on Very Easy and see what happens.

Heck, play "My Brother, My Enemy". The AI is perfectly capable of challenging the player without the player being gimped.

[KyadCK]

Go try to engage the Imperieuse on Very Easy and see what happens.

Heck, play "My Brother, My Enemy". The AI is perfectly capable of challenging the player without the player being gimped.

Go play the first mission of FS2 on Very Easy, see what happens.

It would be a once and a while thing, and you're pinning it on the hardest missions made with the most advanced AI. Doesn't change the fact the AI is handicapped at all dificuties but insane.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure the Imperieuse has special armor and turret armor because QD kept kicking the **** out of it. AI has nothing to do with the Imperieuse winning. 

[MatthTheGeek]

Imperieuse's fighter cover have Little Devil AI. Which means they're all as good in Very Easy as they are in Insane. Of course you get buffs in any other difficulty than insane, but other than that those AI aren't handicapped at all.

[General Battuta]

AI has nothing to do with the Imperieuse winning. 

Yes it does. I don't think anyone ever managed to get to past the Imperieuse fighter escort. (could be wrong)

[KyadCK]

AI has nothing to do with the Imperieuse winning. 

Yes it does. I don't think anyone ever managed to get to past the Imperieuse fighter escort. (could be wrong)

So if those fighters were gone, the Imperieuse could be defeated? If not, then the fighter AI is only icing on the cake and has nothing at all to do with the Imperieuse killing everything it's meant to.

[LordPomposity]

Go play the first mission of FS2 on Very Easy, see what happens.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your point is. I offered "My Brother, My Enemy" as evidence that it is possible to make missions where the AI can give you a serious run for your money without the mission handicapping you. The fact that there are missions elsewhere that do not take advantage of BP's improved AI profiles in no way invalidates anything I said.

[KyadCK]

Go play the first mission of FS2 on Very Easy, see what happens.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your point is. I offered "My Brother, My Enemy" as evidence that it is possible to make missions where the AI can give you a serious run for your money without the mission handicapping you. The fact that there are missions elsewhere that do not take advantage of BP's improved AI profiles in no way invalidates anything I said.

Beam on the Carthage can't be destroyed, Imperieuse cant be debeamed, and according to matth, Imperieuse's escort always uses insane regardless of actual difficulty.

They handicap you in plenty of ways by making things invincible, and the AI again has nothing to do with the above.

And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal. Most anything that you need to kill is not generally as big a deal as things you're meant to avoid.

[qwadtep]

If memory serves the AI on the Imperieuse fighters was beefed up precisely because there was a time when it the player could defang the Imperieuse. The beams themselves are also guardianed, but that's more to stop the frigates themselves from rolling it; the fighters keep the player from ever getting close enough in the first place.

And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal. Most anything that you need to kill is not generally as big a deal as things you're meant to avoid.

You don't need to kill them. Play that mission again and let yourself be shot down.

[LordPomposity]

And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal.

*shrugs* You're a better pilot than I, then. Clearly you would have had more fun if your Uhlan had started handling like an Ursa in the middle of the fight.

[KyadCK]

If memory serves the AI on the Imperieuse fighters was beefed up precisely because there was a time when it the player could defang the Imperieuse. The beams themselves are also guardianed, but that's more to stop the frigates themselves from rolling it; the fighters keep the player from ever getting close enough in the first place.

Doesn't really matter, you just said the turrets are guardianed. It doesn't matter why, just that they are. The fighter screen has zero impact on the successful outcome as you would 'lose' even if they weren't there.

You don't need to kill them. Play that mission again and let yourself be shot down.

Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.

And no, the SOC guys really arent that big a deal.

Clearly you would have had more fun if your Uhlan had started handling like an Ursa in the middle of the fight.

About gravity and jump intradiction topic. I think that cost-effective way for jump intradiction would be some form of strong but short gravity pulse/ping that would screw jump calculation and jump process which would cause jump calculation distrubtion (aka good variant), blind jump (risky variant) or big dammage to the jump drive (very bad variant).

Obviously such short pulse would have to be used during target jump drive charge up, or (for continous jump intrediction) ship would have to be dedicated intredictor with paper thin armor, size of a corvette and AWAC-class arnaments. Because option B would be both time consuming and expensive I think that UEF would reconfigure their AWACS to use those pulse, while GTVA might have some dedicated intredictors as a secret projects.

The obvious side effect of such pulse would be that all jumpdrives in range would be temporary distrupted so if you use the pulse then your ships jumpdrive would be also affected... unless you find a way to make a precise gravity wave, instead of 360-360 pulse (and I'm quite sure such thing would require dedicated intredictor construction instead of typical AWACS).

Where, exactly, are you reading real-space fighter movement being modified in any way? Saturn didn't effect your flight, but it sure as hell made the Carthage drop out of subspace and prevent it from leaving. That's the exact effect hes referring to. Just like Interdictor cruisers in Star Wars.

If you are refering to Aesaar's post, then its really no worse then losing just about everything in the dense nebula. We're back to moderation. It wouldn't be all the time, and probably not even for a full mission. It's something to make the game interesting.

[LordPomposity]

Do you need to kill them to continue?

naw

If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.

Emphasis mine.

Where, exactly, are you reading real-space fighter movement being modified in any way? Saturn didn't effect your flight, but it sure as hell made the Carthage drop out of subspace and prevent it from leaving. That's the exact effect hes referring to. Just like Interdictor cruisers in Star Wars.

If you are refering to Aesaar's post, then its really no worse then losing just about everything in the dense nebula. We're back to moderation. It wouldn't be all the time, and probably not even for a full mission. It's something to make the game interesting.

Yep, been referring to Aesaar's post the entire time. Gravity-based jump interdiction would be really cool, and obviously has nothing to do with any of the points I've raised about gimping the player.

[General Battuta]

Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.

I think you missed something about that mission. 

Status effects on players are often really tricky to pull off in game design that relies on a close interface between player action and gameplay reaction. Our design goals for R2 focus on giving the player an expanded toolset, moreso than R1's strategy of putting the player in a single niche of the combined-arms space.

[KyadCK]

Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.

I think you missed something about that mission. 

I pulled it up on the wiki, which sure enough said something along the lines of "kill them before they kill that thing!" and I remembered killing them, so... *shrug*
From Wiki:

There are two ways to go about this. You can either hold at the start point and draw them to you, or charge them in range of the Dea Icaunis (who still has her armament). Either way, you'll need to destroy them all to proceed.

[-Norbert-]

Destroy them all to proceed within the mission, to the point where the transport warps with the other SOC fighters.
But if you get shot down, you don't die.
You get a debriefing telling you that Laporte managed to eject, was ligthly wounded and that the SOC managed to extract the prisoner from the Sanctus, after which the camapaign continues the same way as if you had won the mission.

While I heard from some people that they intentionally lost the mission for sentimental reasons, I for one got splashed by them because their strength caught me off-guard the first time I played the mission.

[LordPomposity]

Breaking news: Articles on wikis are not always correct or complete.

[pecenipicek]

Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.

I think you missed something about that mission. 

I pulled it up on the wiki, which sure enough said something along the lines of "kill them before they kill that thing!" and I remembered killing them, so... *shrug*
From Wiki:

There are two ways to go about this. You can either hold at the start point and draw them to you, or charge them in range of the Dea Icaunis (who still has her armament). Either way, you'll need to destroy them all to proceed.

just play the mission and let yourself get shot down.

[General Battuta]

Do you need to kill them to continue? If so, then it is a need. Since getting shot down means endgame, it is not an option to pass.

I think you missed something about that mission. 

I pulled it up on the wiki, which sure enough said something along the lines of "kill them before they kill that thing!" and I remembered killing them, so... *shrug*
From Wiki:

There are two ways to go about this. You can either hold at the start point and draw them to you, or charge them in range of the Dea Icaunis (who still has her armament). Either way, you'll need to destroy them all to proceed.

You realize you're talking to the person who FREDded the mission, right? Like I said: I think you missed something about the mission.

Also, I'm not...totally sure what this argument is about right now.