Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: StarLiner on January 07, 2012, 10:07:24 pm
-
You want to know why?
It was so amazing I feel like other campaigns are going to be underwhelming to me. AoA and WiH spoiled me pretty bad with awesome. I was thinking of trying my hand at creating a campaign, but now I feel as if anything I make would be inadequate.
:p
-
Yeah I would say it's spoiled me as well. Can't lie. :nervous:
-
same here. now i'm stuck with a horrible idea IMO that probably won't meet fred.
-
Yep. On the bright side, look how much effort it saved us! :P
-
I guess I would get eaten alive on this board if I mention the fact that I've never played BP.
-
Brother, don't do that! In other case you will find out all your Inferno work is pointless :P
-
same here. now i'm stuck with a horrible idea IMO that probably won't meet fred.
Amusingly enough it was AoA that finally stopped me FREDding.
-
I can feed you guys storylines if you want to scratch your FRED itch. Amusingly enough I cannot FRED myself, rofl.
-
I guess I would get eaten alive on this board if I mention the fact that I've never played BP.
Death to the heathen!
-
I guess I would get eaten alive on this board if I mention the fact that I've never played BP.
Good, then you can still enjoy all of our campaigns. :p
-
I haven't played FSO or any of the mods outside of the BtRL demo and 2 partial FS2 missions...
So I've got y'all beat soundly.... and I'm a mod leader. :P
-
To be honest, I've never been amazed by BP. For me, it's so candyish. BP is trying to be spectacular and epic by the brute force. Bunch of emotions and "magic" things in, effectively covering lack of rationality and deep things, and It's too big departure from everything what we know from FS1 and FS2 - just cold war. It's like a Avatar in the sea of films. You're free to hate me for that, but I for me other things are more important than glowy visuals and "epicness". Anyway, playing both parts of BP was a great fun for me. I love technical side of both WiH and AoA, I love lots of innovation, superb ideas, elaborating of whole mod, large amount of work that autors did for BP universe and everything. Excellent mission design, cool dialogues... BP is just unforgivable and it will always be. If any released mod is perfect, BP is the closest mod to pretenfing for this title. BP Team - this guys just pulled out modding scene from routine!
-
We guna say things we dislike about bp? That's kinda hard. Well to play along with the theme, I would like to try:
I did think that BP1 and BP2, given the overall quality that they were, could have experimented more with unique gameplay. Many of the star missions were general escort missions and the plot was moved along mostly by killing bombers and turrets. There were some pretty interesting tactics adopted in WIH such as the flight support packages in Aristia and capship command. Overall it was enjoyable, but I think a lot of that enjoyment came from the immersion the game instilled in you as you progressed. Sort of like interactive entertainment you worked your way through. Then again there was the Fury AI and the introduction of the UEF with all its different combat tactics.... well if BP were to go further, I believe gameplay is where improvements can be made. To be fair, that seemed to be exactly what the BP team was planning with WIH2, something I am still looking forward to if it comes out. There seemed to be lots of unique ways to play such as stealth missions where you lase targets for artillery, surface strafing on mars etc. That's about all I can say. I would be hard pressed to come up with much more criticism than that.
One last thing. As good as the blue planet series is, there should be no campaign so good that it makes you want to quit modding. If anything, the blue planet series inspired me to continue modding since it was an example of what could be done with FSO. Putting anyone's work on a pedestal as 'godly' or unsurpassable is really limiting to yourself and others.
-
One last thing. As good as the blue planet series is, there should be no campaign so good that it makes you want to quit modding. If anything, the blue planet series inspired me to continue modding since it was an example of what could be done with FSO. Putting anyone's work on a pedestal as 'godly' or unsurpassable is really limiting to yourself and others.
A noble but useless sentiment.
I stopped not because of BP, but due to a general feeling that had been building up. Ransom's work contributed as well. It has nothing to do with them being unsurpassable and everything to do with the fact I, specifically, have neither the time nor the energy to spend surpassing them.
-
We guna say things we dislike about bp? That's kinda hard. Well to play along with the theme, I would like to try:
Huh? I thought this thread was about how BP was too good.
One last thing. As good as the blue planet series is, there should be no campaign so good that it makes you want to quit modding. If anything, the blue planet series inspired me to continue modding since it was an example of what could be done with FSO. Putting anyone's work on a pedestal as 'godly' or unsurpassable is really limiting to yourself and others.
It's neither. BP has its issues, but at the same time it's way up there in quality and gameplay experience. It doesn't make me want to quit modding (as if I did any :P ), but it does make me feel like the amount of work that I would have to do to make something that is not totally eclipsed by BP is enormous.
-
Brother, don't do that! In other case you will find out all your Inferno work is pointless :P
The design philosophy adopted by Inferno is quite different from that of BP. Our focus is on our assets and the ability to use all such assets in a creative way to tell a story that does not deviate from the method used by Volition to tell the stories of FS1&2. We do not plan to write any fiction or give our characters sophisticated backgrounds or use complex literary techniques to drive the story forward. Instead, you will fly one of our intricately designed fighters or bombers and blow the crap out of anything in your path that prevents you from completing your objective. That is what made vanilla FS fun and we guarantee that the Community will not be dissatisfied w/ the results.
I and many other members of Inferno Team greatly respect and admire the direction taken by the BP Team to take the FS experience to a next level. It is something uniquely BP and it should stay that way. And Inferno will stay our way. And in that vein - - your respective campaigns and projects should stay their way and retain their flavor.
R
-
WiH keeps making me want to start BoE type missions and give up when I realize I'll never make them even halfway playable, never mind as good as Aristeia or Delenda Est. I'd kill to be able to make one awesome fleet action, especially in Twist of Fate to make up for the total joke that was FS1 capship combat.
To see Ticonderogas, Orions, Typhons, and Udjats all blasting each other with railguns while dozens of unshielded fighters and bombers swarm around...it would be beautiful.
-
I can feed you guys storylines if you want to scratch your FRED itch. Amusingly enough I cannot FRED myself, rofl.
Seconded
To be honest, I've never been amazed by BP. For me, it's so candyish. BP is trying to be spectacular and epic by the brute force. Bunch of emotions and "magic" things in, effectively covering lack of rationality and deep things, and It's too big departure from everything what we know from FS1 and FS2 - just cold war.
While I enjoyed BP, I had the same issues. The Mysticism around the Vishnans especially really put me off, which is probably why I prefer the WiH story to the AoA story by leaps and bounds.
I dunno, for me, personally, the fight against the Shivans was always a test of Terran/Vasudan ingenuity and courage. Everytime we survived it was because our strength of spirit and smart tactics, or 'tactical retreats' (I'm looking at you Capella). We even saw what happened when we didn't approach the Shivans with utmost care, (early FS2).
When AoA hinted that we COULDN'T win, not without passing some kind of spiritual test by the Vishnans, it devalued all the previous accomplishments, and made any ultimate victory less worth it, because it seemed like it wouldn't be our work - it would be the Vishnans.
That being said, this was my single and only problem with BP, and it didn't prevent me from enjoying the campaigns, it's simply a direction I wouldn't have taken. Reminds me rather forcibly of my perspective on the ending David Weber's "Out of the Dark" if anyone else here has read it. Great story... ended in a direction I disagreed with. Still enjoyed the story.
-
AoA hinted that we COULDN'T win, not without passing some kind of spiritual test by the Vishnans
If that's what you think, then you have utterly failed to understand the real problematic behind the BP universe. There are many indications in AoA and WiH that we shouldn't consider the Vishnans as a helpful, benevolent force, and it is obvious that they are pursuing their own agenda, in which the true role of humanity has yet to be determined.
As for the "we can't win" part, or to be more precise, "we can't beat the Shivans from a military point of view", it's not a BP thing. Canonical FS2 pretty much states it clearly when they throw 80 jugs at you and blow a star for teh lulz.
One of the main reason BP has become so popular is actually because it's not a standard militaristic campaign à la FS1-2. We already have dozens of those.
-
AoA hinted that we COULDN'T win, not without passing some kind of spiritual test by the Vishnans
If that's what you think, then you have utterly failed to understand the real problematic behind the BP universe. There are many indications in AoA and WiH that we shouldn't consider the Vishnans as a helpful, benevolent force, and it is obvious that they are pursuing their own agenda, in which the true role of humanity has yet to be determined.
As for the "we can't win" part, or to be more precise, "we can't beat the Shivans from a military point of view", it's not a BP thing. Canonical FS2 pretty much states it clearly when they throw 80 jugs at you and blow a star for teh lulz.
One of the main reason BP has become so popular is actually because it's not a standard militaristic campaign à la FS1-2. We already have dozens of those.
I didn't say that the Vishnans were benevolent.
Your own words illustrate the problem I have entirely: 'the true role of humanity has yet to be determined'. I don't like that we are tools in someone elses agenda, or rather, that we don't have the option not to be, and I don't like that if we survive, it's essentially because of cosmic luck. The conversation between the Dante and the Vishnans Lulzwtfernought about the 'Brahmans of old' implied that any victory we might achieve was actually simply pre-ordained, which as I said, feels like it devalues the previous victories we have drawn.
On the topic of the 80 Sathani (correct pluralization?):
Canonical FS1 stated that the Lucifer was invincible, and then that same canon found a way to overcome. All hurdles are surmountable, sometimes it's just more difficult then others. What if FS1 had ended with the destruction of Vasuda Prime, and we found a way to break the jump nodes to Shivan contested systems, hiding in the heart of Terran space. Would you argue then that 'canon proves we can't beat the shivans because the Lucifer is invincible'? It's a fair argument, but my response would still be the same: A way exists, we just haven't found it yet.
A representative from Volition said that they had planned a GTVA offensive into 'Shivantown' in FS3, but that it wasn't any more hammered out then that before FS3 got cancelled. Since he said quote: "go on the offensive" in reference the the GTVA, Volition clearly thought the GTVA could overcome 80 jugs, or at least had planned a way for the Security Council to believe it could.
So no, I fundamentally disagree with your statement that canon pretty much says the Shivans are unbeatable because they fielded a bunch of really nasty ships.
Finally, I know that's why BP is popular, I even said that I enjoyed it a lot. As I said in my post, it's simply a route I wouldn't have taken had I been on the story team. I didn't say it was wrong, or bad, I just gave my perspective had I been in their position.
-
Maybe humanity will break out of that plan and pwn Vishnans and Shivans alike.
IIRC it's Sathanes, but on this board you should always use Sathanasen (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71090.msg1407240#msg1407240). :D
-
The obvious problem with Volition alledged plans to have GTVA surpass Shivans in their migth is a really deep and boring sense of dejá vu. FS2 was already about the GTVA apparently getting the better hand over the Shivans only to get their royal backsides hammered pretty heavily. If FS3 went to the path of "we pwn shivans already", two scenarios would eventually unfold: either they would actually pwn the shivans, and that's kinda anticlimatic (so this huge vertigo we had in FS2 was meaningless?), or they would have the Twist again to teach us manners... and that would be even worse.
Of course, there's nothing that good writing cannot overcome.
-
The obvious problem with Volition alledged plans to have GTVA surpass Shivans in their migth is a really deep and boring sense of dejá vu. FS2 was already about the GTVA apparently getting the better hand over the Shivans only to get their royal backsides hammered pretty heavily. If FS3 went to the path of "we pwn shivans already", two scenarios would eventually unfold: either they would actually pwn the shivans, and that's kinda anticlimatic (so this huge vertigo we had in FS2 was meaningless?), or they would have the Twist again to teach us manners... and that would be even worse.
Of course, there's nothing that good writing cannot overcome.
I have to agree with the sentiment. Rehashing FS2's core dynamic with FS3 seems about as viable as how Godfather 3 managed to ruin the second. If that is how they planned it, I probably would have bought the game, but only from the discount bin.
I have wondered from time to time why many in the mod community seem so tied to Volition's narrative, at least as applied to be an official "Freespace Mod". The plot, such as it was, was merely an excuse to put the player into various game scenarios the developer thought up. Every piece with the exception of the player was expendable. Entire squadrons were brought in and removed seemingly at whim. One moment you're a hotshot Interceptor pilot. 6 missions later you're suddenly lumbering around in a clunky bomber doing a completely different tactical job with minimal training. Entire (essentially cardboard) major force "capital" ships are blown up, but as long as that all important mission list doesn't turn red, the player feels great for potentially flying a perfect mission. It was a game that seemed to cater to an excuse plot. That doesn't take away from the overall universe that Volition created, I just don't get why it's considered so important what Volition wanted as far as the ending of the series goes. What they wanted was a great big space battle, with flashy beams of death, and probably a sudden twist ending told in low res cutscenes.
-
Interesting to see that BP had a negative effect on some people's FREDding motivation. For me, WiH was just another representative of a "3rd generation*" of FREDding FS campaigns that fully and completely integrate with FSOpen and really stretch the engine - campaigns like Vassago's Dirge, Wings of Dawn (by all accounts), the BtRL demo, recent JaDs and one or two others. These campaigns are all similar in that the old ways of making missions (Aping volition, basically) aren't really up to standard any more - we have the tools to make a much more interesting, complex and diverse pool of missions
I think it's been successful because it's probably the best-polished example of the current generation, and very tightly integrates a large number of new assets with the new gameplay capabilities of the SCP. It looks unique, plays unique, and has enough of a storyline to keep people interested whether they particularly like it or not. I'm personally not a fan of several of the decisions they made (character based gameplay being a big one), but I can still enjoy it as a technical tour-de-force.
*For anyone who cares, I'd define the generations of FS campaigns basically as follows:
First generation campaigns were everything released prior to and in the immediate aftermath of the Source code release. The aim was largely to ape Volition - a good campaign had lots of not-too-complex, bug free missions with fun gameplay. They (generally) had few mods and were basically the equivalent of FS2 expansion packs. Examples would be the Cold Element campaigns (Derelict, Warzone etc.), Homesick etc.
Second generation campaigns were the ones released post SCP, but without the full integration of the various new features that we have now. These might have larger modpacks (representing the larger mod-base available at the time they were created and increasing skillset of the community) and use some SCP features. These often also represented a significant step up in the quality and complexity of the FREDding. Examples here would be Unification War, PI, Transcend and ST:R.
Third generation are campaigns that fully integrate with the SCP, and could never have been realized in anything like their current forms with the original engine. These often have big modpacks, and feature unique and often very complex FREDding tricks that allow for significant diversity of mission design (most likely due to the fact that the community has reached a sort of "critical mass" of FRED experience, as well as the ability to add new features to the engine as required). I'd say this generation probably started with Windmills, which was far and away the most complex and advanced campaign of its day, and continues with the sort of campaigns I mentioned before.
Obviously, it's not a perfect system, but I think it's interesting to have charted the development of the FS modding scene. Every few years, the standard of quality that people expect goes up. If, for example, Derelict was released today, even in it's post-FSCRP, voice acted form, it would no doubt be praised for its coherent storyline and largely bug free missions and VA, but I think it's very unlikely that it'd be considered the classic that it currently is. It's simply not ambitious enough for modern standards. But for me personally, I don't see this as a demotivator that prevents me FREDding - more a motivator to increase the quality of the work I am doing. There are a couple of features in TI missions that would probably have been put into the "too hard" basket a few years ago, but which are in the missions today because campaigns like VD and WiH proved that very complex and interesting things could be done, and the net result is, IMO, a significant improvement.
-
I certainly think it's hard to show, introduce, let alone release any campaign when people use the same bar that AoA and WiH has set. Perhaps it also has to do with people's desire to make the best work and for their hard work be admired. Maybe it's best to let that be and just try to make something really great that you personally like and want to make, not to surpass other people's work.
I personally try to take ideas from any source I come in contact with, be it a FPS game, be it a space game, a mod, or otherwise. By introducing and writing ideas down into a document for yourself, then re-read the entire document every few days adding more ideas and text, does a lot to start off your campaign in a better light than only emulating (which is also a source for information and improvement).
-
I hate the Vishnans too. It ruined the Shivans and turned them into cardboard boxes. Perhaps literally.
I liked it when there were just Shivans.
Anyway, asides from the stupid Vishnan dynamic, I actually kinda like BP. On the thought of the GTVA winning against the Shivans, I never understood why it should be "lol we pwn shivnas". I always thought if they "did" win, it should be hard fought and virtually decimate the GTVA military. I mean seriously, 75 SATHANASES. And that's not counting how many destroyers they might have. Or the potentially millions of fighters and bombers.
(75 because the first sathanas got killed while four juggs got left behind (ran out of fuel?) when they blew up Capella.)
-
Every few years, the standard of quality that people expect goes up. If, for example, Derelict was released today, even in it's post-FSCRP, voice acted form, it would no doubt be praised for its coherent storyline and largely bug free missions and VA, but I think it's very unlikely that it'd be considered the classic that it currently is. It's simply not ambitious enough for modern standards.
You're kidding. If Derelict was released today, it would be bashed to oblivion for not actually being anywhere close to bug-free (both the current FSCRP and the original have multiple game-stopping bugs), and being actually too ambitious (look at how many missions there are in there ! We keep suggesting newbies to make short campaigns for a reason). Not to mention the way of handling PIRATES à la Volitionesque waves after wave.
I certainly think it's hard to show, introduce, let alone release any campaign when people use the same bar that AoA and WiH has set.
It's probably much harder to actually get people to play it. Look at the number of 1st and 2nd generation campaigns we have. Who has played them all ? I probably played most of them, but that's most likely not the case of half the people around here. If you were to release yet another campaign like that, it would be exactly this, "yet another campaign". We already have more than enough of those. Players want innovative stuff.
-
This is a good thread! I think Betrayal, BlackWolf and Rampage have all made really good points. BP is one stylistic direction, not the only stylistic direction. It overplays where Volition liked to underplay. It gives you more words, more ships, louder music, more information -- and this can be good, it can be bad, it's certainly a departure that's just not always going to click. It works for some, doesn't work for others. It's important that there be no one right direction to take FreeSpace modding -- we're all stronger for diversity.
We on the team have a lot of the same concerns about the Vishnans and it's something our outline going forward will engage with.
-
We on the team have a lot of the same concerns about the Vishnans and it's something our outline going forward will engage with.
Hoping for a promise of all out Tev victory is a little unrealistic I suppose, so that statement of yours just made my day
-
Of course... the BP team has been saying for years now that there's more to the Vishnans than we've seen so far and that they aren't necessarily the benevolent benefactors Sam was led to believe they are. They fight their own war in heaven......
-
Heck, all these divine machinations could just be the delusions of a very sick girl called Noemi, fighting a one-(wo)man war against the friendly GTVA with all her imaginary friends. :P Can't wait to see the real reason though! If I ever get enough sparetime to play BP-II 2/2.
-
Bp is just marvelous. it brings serious military background to an otherwise amateur feeling game (original FS2, I mean).
I just have a small problem with the recent updates, the way they throw all this screaming metal at you in the missions of WiH... even on very easy, I cannot pass through deals in the shadow and delenda est, the first because I can't command the IA around to preemptive interception on one of the two wings coming at the Reshadiye, and both of them are enough to hulk the transport, the second because there's no way to dispatch the enemy out of his maxim range to the Indus without switching ship, and you can't do that anymore at the briefing. A kent would really be nicer than a sluggish uriel there, same goes for the other wings.
I also have a rather big problem with the quality of the friendly AI, witch is more getting in the way than helping when confronted to the enemy. In both of these mission, if I F4 before failure and debrief, I see I scored about 80-90% of the kills. and this ratio doesn't change with the difficulty level, always stay the same.
So my question is : are there custom AIs floating around that might be compatible with BP : WiH and raise the efficiency of the wingmen?
-
Wait, what? You can't select your ship in Delenda Est any more? It sounds like something has definitely gotten screwed up in more recent versions of SCP or the mod.
As for the AI: BP2 already uses the Fury AI, the first real custom AI the community ever produced and one which is now standard across most mods. Usually the problem is the AI wingmen being too good. It sounds like something strange is going on.
-
I think he meant that he'd just like to switch from an Uriel to a Kent in-mission because Uriel too slow. But of course, you can't change ship in-mission.
-
I think he meant that he'd just like to switch from an Uriel to a Kent in-mission because Uriel too slow. But of course, you can't change ship in-mission.
With checkpoints you can!
-
It sounds like something has definitely gotten screwed up in more recent versions of SCP or the mod.
bp2-15.fs2 itself has been edited only three times since 2010 and none of these edits except the very latest one should have any impact on mission balance. The latest one is only a week old, so it's not in public release. Meaning that if balance really has changed, the problem is elsewhere. The funny thing is, that if something else causes difference in mission balance, why it has only been noticed in Delenda Est?
-
I've run across with FSO crashing in various missions (not just in blueplanet2) when I try change to the ship selection or loadout screens. The briefing screen is fine though. It only occurs after I'd played & failed a given mission at least once and when it occurs, it keeps crashing at these screens until I complete the mission (i.e. advance the campaign). This was with antipodes8 though, Kreit - are you running antipodes8? Or 3.6.14RC5?
-
I'm currently using fs2_open_3_6_14_RC5, and it says loading BP caused 87 errors, might be the reason I can't change ship during the briefing, in any mission.
Secondly, and I'm not bragging, I got top score on almost all mission, be it BP with fury or FS1 and 2 without, that's why I'm asking if there are other AI around.
The problem is, I can't possibly do all the work by myself, and there are loads of fighters coming around with one purpose only... wrecking capships.
-
I'm currently using fs2_open_3_6_14_RC5, and it says loading BP caused 87 errors, might be the reason I can't change ship during the briefing, in any mission.
Secondly, and I'm not bragging, I got top score on almost all mission, be it BP with fury or FS1 and 2 without, that's why I'm asking if there are other AI around.
The problem is, I can't possibly do all the work by myself, and there are loads of fighters coming around with one purpose only... wrecking capships.
I'm worried that something's changed in the gameplay between 3.6.12 and 3.6.14.