Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: samiam on March 12, 2012, 11:29:48 am
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The Afghan parliament is demanding a public trial for a US soldier who went on a shooting rampage in Kandahar.
The Taliban has vowed to take revenge after the soldier went on a murderous rampage, killing 16 villagers including women and children in their homes.
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But Prince Seraj says the shooting in Kandahar may not see the same response.
"The Koran incident was something completely different because Koran is the common religion in Afghanistan... it goes across boundary lines, it goes across ethnic lines," he said.
"As far as this incident in Kandahar is concerned, because it's localised to one province, we may see more of a reaction in Kandahar than we would say somewhere in Herat or somewhere in some of the other provinces.
"But nevertheless, we should not be surprised if there is reaction against this type of an action."
He says the US would be playing into the hands of the Taliban if it responded to the breakdown in relations between it and Afghanistan by bringing forward its withdrawal.
WASHINGTON — The outrage from the back-to-back episodes of the Koran burning and the killing on Sunday of at least 16 Afghan civilians imperils what the Obama administration once saw as an orderly plan for 2012: to speed the training of Afghan forces so that they can take the lead in combat missions, all while drawing the Taliban into negotiations to end more than a decade of constant war.
(KABUL, Afghanistan) — Afghans expressed doubt Monday that a single U.S. Army soldier could have shot and killed 16 civilians in houses over a mile (2 kilometers) apart and burned the bodies afterward. The killings in southern Afghanistan have reignited fury at the U.S. presence following a wave of deadly protests over Americans burning Korans.
Villagers told The Associated Press on Sunday that a single soldier roamed from house to house firing on those inside. They said he entered three homes in all and set fire to some of the bodies. Eleven of the dead were from a single family, and nine of the victims were children.
But Abdul Rahim Ayubi, a lawmaker from Kandahar province, said the houses that were attacked were over a mile (2 kilometers) apart, raising questions about how a single soldier could have carried out all of the shootings.
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The suspect, from Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash., was assigned to support a special operations unit of either Green Berets or Navy SEALs engaged in a village stability operation, said a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation is still ongoing.
Sounds like a CIA + Jewlluminati conspiracy to me. What do you think?
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1. A soldier can walk two kilometers.
2. A soldier can kill everyone in a household.
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The people didn't start trying to avoid the sound of gunfire when it started, and before he walked two kilometers?
Yeah, not buying it.
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:nono:
this whole thing
:nono:
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It says the distance was 2 km, and there were 3 homes involved.
(Srs question): If it's the year 2012 and you live in this part of Afghanistan, and you hear gunfire 2 km away, do you flee? Or are you "used to it" by now?
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Sure, gunfire is a common occurrence in Afghanistan, but there's other problems.
Abdul Ghani, a local councilman in Panjwai district, said local villagers reported seeing two groups of soldiers.
"The villagers said they were hearing machine gun fire and pistol fire from different directions," said Ghani.
The fact that he burned the bodies also points to it being premeditated and intended to hide evidence rather than some random crazy doing this. Also, the Army hasn't released any names. They usually do that.
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Simply burning the bodies is somewhat bizarre, as that requires some time and effort on its own which is at odds with the story reported.
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@samiam: Ah yes, that changes things.
Edit: Heard around the same time, or with enough time in between that a man could walk 2km?
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Dunno man, go ask someone who was there.
Gulf of Tonkin Incident redux it looks like.
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The people didn't start trying to avoid the sound of gunfire when it started, and before he walked two kilometers?
When you live in a warzone, you get used to intermittent spats of distant gunfire. Would you suggest that they leave the cover of their homes and go running, exposed, through the streets every time it happens? It's better to hunker down, hope you're not a target, and let the walls catch any stray bullets, rather than run about and let your meaty bits catch those rounds. (Around Chicago, in the 1990's, you also called the police, but I'm not sure how effective that step is in southern Afghanistan.)
With regards to the possibility of this event being a CIA hit, someone's going to have to present the significance of the families that were targetted. I don't put it past western intelligence agencies to assassinate people, but I also don't put it past individual soldiers to have an emotional breakdown, resulting in a killing spree. In the case of the former, though, there has to be a reason behind the killing. What were the members of these families doing to warrant being killed?
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With regards to the possibility of this event being a CIA hit, someone's going to have to present the significance of the families that were targetted.
There's probably no military reason at all. But destabilizing Afghanistan is all the militaryindustrially complex has left to try to keep the war going.
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...you're really going that route?
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It's happened several times before, why not now? If it turns out that there really were multiple groups of soldiers in the operation, what's your explanation?
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i don't know, but i'm going to go with literally ANYTHING over "the military industrial complex".... "mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!" (read that in stoned hippie voice)
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Ok, space ponies. But space ponies also burned a bunch of korans for no apparent reason too.
Open your eyes and connect the dots. Maaaan.
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With regards to the possibility of this event being a CIA hit, someone's going to have to present the significance of the families that were targetted.
There's probably no military reason at all. But destabilizing Afghanistan is all the militaryindustrially complex has left to try to keep the war going.
I don't buy it. There's enough other targets around the world, waiting to be attacked, including at least one (Iran) that is a riper target, the calmer things are in neighboring states (Iraq and Afghanistan). For all the overt effort being put into stabilizing the region, and for all the reasons to keep the region stable, you don't have a convincing case to sell this as a conspiracy to stir the pot in the region. Maybe back when Blackwater was doing this kind of thing on a semi-regular basis, you could have made a better case for the profit-motive dicating the course of war and peace in the Middle East, but not now, especially when the hotspots are Iran and the states undergoing revolution in the western part of the region.
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I don't buy it. There's enough other targets around the world, waiting to be attacked, including at least one (Iran) that is a riper target,
We don't have any troops in Iran. What's the CIA to do, throw rocks across the border at them or something? That wouldn't prompt us to increase our troop presence in Iran either. Since there isn't any.
To the rest: whatever, I'm not going to multiquote and it really doesn't change how some in the military might want to keep up the war.
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Maaaan.
I like that you actually did that.
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I suspect that this was just another victim of PTSD who snapped and decided to "take revenge" on Afghanis by killing random people.
He should be checked out by a psychiatrist and if he's sane (which I doubt), then he should be judged like he normally would if those people were Americans.
This should be dealt with quickly and decisively, or the whole war in Afghanistan would be for nothing.
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honestly, he should be turned over to the Afghan government.
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Would make sense, but that would blow his cover. See what I did there?
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honestly, he should be turned over to the Afghan government.
That would be the best solution, but somebody should stick around to ensure he gets a psych evaluation and a fair, civilized trial. If done properly (ha ha) this could be a milestone in American-Afghani relations.
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That would be the best solution, but somebody should stick around to ensure he gets a psych evaluation and a fair, civilized trial. If done properly (ha ha) this could be a milestone in American-Afghani relations.
That's entirely a formality. What do you think the psychiatrist is going to say? "Oh sure, he's perfectly sane?"
If there is a trial and he doesn't somehow get off with a slap on the wrist, I'll start believing this isn't a vast rightwing conspiracy.
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ahahahahahahahahaha I was going to post this:
Sounds like a CIA + Jewlluminati conspiracy to me. What do you think?
Gulf of Tonkin Incident redux it looks like.
To the rest: whatever, I'm not going to multiquote and it really doesn't change how some in the military might want to keep up the war.
Ok, space ponies. But space ponies also burned a bunch of korans for no apparent reason too.
Open your eyes and connect the dots. Maaaan.
op is confirmed for conspiracy theory nutjob. inb4 moon landing was a hoax.
but then it said 2 unread replies and I saw this!
If there is a trial and he doesn't somehow get off with a slap on the wrist, I'll start believing this isn't a vast rightwing conspiracy.
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I don't buy it. There's enough other targets around the world, waiting to be attacked, including at least one (Iran) that is a riper target,
We don't have any troops in Iran. What's the CIA to do, throw rocks across the border at them or something? That wouldn't prompt us to increase our troop presence in Iran either. Since there isn't any.
Iran....building nukes....fortifying facilities that refine weapons-grade Uranium.... Did you miss that over the course of the last decade? When the troop count is '0', and you have friendly forces garrisoned on two of Iran's borders, it's pretty easy to escalate from 'sanctions' to 'invasion', assuming Iraq and Afghanistan are stable enough to be used as launching platforms. Destabilizing Afghanistan accomplishes nothing, especially when we've had troops deployed for eleven years. Vietnam, from the Gulf of Tonkin incident forward, only lasted twelve years, before Richard Nixon (R-CA) had to bow to political pressure and remove US troops. Don't forget that the people who have to pull the trigger on an escalation are elected officials, who have to answer to a different authority than profit motive.
Would make sense, but that would blow his cover. See what I did there?
Trolololololol
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I'm only 50% trolling. The other 50% of me thinks that a conspiracy is entirely possible and you haven't really said anything to explain why there was gunfire reported from multiple directions.
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because the houses weren't all in the same spot?
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Dudes can't teleport like that. Read the thread.
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I'm only 50% trolling. The other 50% of me thinks that a conspiracy is entirely possible and you haven't really said anything to explain why there was gunfire reported from multiple directions.
Because it's Afghanistan, and everyone and his little dog too is armed. Random gunfire was a fact of life long before the US came to Afghanistan. This is one of the big problems that has faced the US adventure in the country.
Besides, the idea the military wants to keep the war going is hilariously wrongheaded and indicates to me you have no feel for how the military views Afghanistan. Afghanistan is getting their programs to upgrade their equipment killed, it's causing them morale problems. Most of them saw what happened to the Israeli army after their most recent adventure in in Lebanon was completely mismanaged, and remember the state of the Army between the end of Vietnam and 1982 or so. They've already invested a huge amount of effort in containing and preventing similar internal collapse (effectively, it must be admitted; the Army is in much better shape than it was about the time the Iraq surge took place) and the prospect of more angers them.
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The people who were there seemed to find machine gun and pistol fire at 3 AM from multiple directions out of the ordinary, and they also claimed to have seen to groups of soldiers. One survivor also claimed multiple soldiers came into his house. Read the Time article.
At least the Afghan government is considering that there might be more than one shooter.
As for the military, well, they didn't try very hard to avoid the Vietnam war either.
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That's entirely a formality. What do you think the psychiatrist is going to say? "Oh sure, he's perfectly sane?"
If there is a trial and he doesn't somehow get off with a slap on the wrist, I'll start believing this isn't a vast rightwing conspiracy.
A psych could evaluate if he was in control of his actions or not. Basically, it could be a difference between a mental institution and death penalty.
Also, these "formalities" matter a lot more than you think. They show that the law isn't whatever judge feels like saying, but a real, reliable law. When there are no procedures or they're loosely adhered to, people start abusing the power they're given much more quickly.
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Alright. Guess it depends on the psychiatrist though. If he ends up getting released after a few years of 'psychiatric care' after the whole thing blows over he's pretty much off the hook. Can't do anymore *covert operations*, though.
ed: As a matter of fact I don't think it's common practice to not just plain lock up or execute criminal psychopaths.
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Alright. Guess it depends on the psychiatrist though. If he ends up getting released after a few years of 'psychiatric care' after the whole thing blows over he's pretty much off the hook. Can't do anymore *covert operations*, though.
ed: As a matter of fact I don't think it's common practice to not just plain lock up or execute criminal psychopaths.
IIRC, such cases are under a careful observation even after being released (assuming that they are), not to mention he would be thrown out of the army. And social stigma connected with being mentally ill is quite significant.
Remember we're most likely talking PTSD here. Some people just can't handle the stress of the war, and this occasionally shows like that.
Also, it should be investigated how the heck did he get so far unsupervised, with a gun and ammo. A soldier under arms can't just walk away from his/her post, especially not alone. It seems that somebody screwed up, badly. And no, this wouldn't be a conspiracy of any kind, that would be way too obvious, too suspicious. Why was he able to leave his post? And if he didn't left his post, how did he sneak out carrying a weapon? Why was he alone (I don't think soldiers would split up and leave him alone for any reason)? These questions have to be answered, and I suspect a gross display of incompetence. Anyway, we need more data on this incident, and the government should provide it, or it might end badly.
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You seem to really not want to say anything about how multiple soldiers were seen involved. There could be more than one person. How big of a conspiracy it is, I don't know. It might just be a unit of Green Berets who felt like killing people. But it doesn't seem like a lone crazy. Either that or Karzai is lying.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai also left open the possibility of more than one shooter in a statement Sunday. He initially spoke of a single U.S. gunman, then referred to "American forces" entering houses. The statement quoted a 15-year-old survivor named Rafiullah, who was shot in the leg, as telling Karzai in a phone call that "soldiers" broke into his house, woke up his family and began shooting them.
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Because of course Hamad Karzai has never lied or simply gone around trying to provoke a reaction.
Right?
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Why would he troll America like that though?
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Ah, answer me. Don't just edit your post.
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You hadn't posted when I went back to edit that. And frankly, you sound like you're trying to moderate there. It might help not to command.
Why would he troll America like that though?
In case you haven't noticed, he's spent most of his tenure engaged in trying to troll America in a number of ways, from talking shop with Iran to getting caught with his hand in the poppy jar and waving it off. He has behaved in increasingly capricious fashion towards the people who make his government possible as long as he has been in office.
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Well, it's Karzai's conspiracy then. Since the villagers did report two groups of soldiers; must have been made up too.
Now watch the entire forum jump on the possibility that it's Karzai's fault since the CIA never does this stuff amirite.
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What is it about that idea that appeals to you so, exactly?
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The idea that you don't want to address my post.
Or, penis.
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You seem to really not want to say anything about how multiple soldiers were seen involved. There could be more than one person. How big of a conspiracy it is, I don't know. It might just be a unit of Green Berets who felt like killing people. But it doesn't seem like a lone crazy. Either that or Karzai is lying.
The current version tells of one gunman. Let's stick to that. Testimony of a terrified 15 years old boy doesn't say much, even if he did really say that. He could be used to the fact soldiers always travel in groups, so when he saw one, he thought there are more behind him. Considering that he survived, he most likely hid well shortly after seeing the soldier. Remember that the whole incident must have scared the living daylights out of him, so I'd hardly consider him a credible witness.
Karzai may be lying, but I don't think it's the case. The situation is bad enough, I don't think he'd see need to worsen it (and risk being exposed as a liar). He's most likely honestly believing that boy, but as I said, his testimony might not be very credible.
Of course, there's a chance a bunch of soldiers felt like killing some Afghanis for some wicked reason. Since I don't think they could all have PTSD manifest like this (though depending on the size of the group, it's not impossible), that'd make them a particularly nasty kind of murderers. And they'd have to be threated as such. Though I sincerely hope it's not the case.
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If it was a small group of people acting on their own it'd make little sense since it would mean certain imprisonment. Probably the last we'll hear of that theory.
We'll see how the trial goes, though, it'll be fun with the Afghans and the US haggling over jurisdiction.
As a sidenote, the insanity defense has a really low success rate, especially if one hasn't already been diagnosed with some disorder.
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samiam, how do you know it wasn't an Afghani pretending to be a US soldier, and used him as a scapegoat! Or Iran, maybe it was an Iranian!
(This is why conspiracy theories are generally b.s. when there's a better explanation.)
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Well it'd be pretty obvious when the guy was captured if he was Afghani, so probably not.
I guess there is a precedent for this kind of stuff, My Lai. At least this time it didn't get far.
Some more stuff since like NGT1MR noted I'm so OBSESSED with this thread.
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/12/148456123/afghan-shooting-leaves-many-unanswered-questions
The sergeant suspected in the shootings Sunday deployed from the Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington state, one of the largest bases in the U.S. The Lewis-McChord installation has become a lightning rod for criticism about military assistance for soldiers transitioning from war zones.
Last year, Lewis-McChord reported a base record of 12 suicides, according to the AP. Four Lewis-McChord soldiers were convicted in one of the worst incidents in the war — the 2010 killing of three Afghan civilians for sport, which occurred in the same region.
The attacks Sunday come after U.S. troops last month burned copies of the Quran, apparently inadvertently. In another recent incident that drew widespread attention, American Marines were captured on video urinating on the corpses of militants. The Quran-burning led to deadly protests.
All of these episodes could hamper U.S. efforts to train Afghan forces and arrange peace talks with the Taliban as part of the American plan to wind down its role in Afghanistan after more than a decade of war.
So looks like this isn't a conspiracy after all, but rather an everyday occurrence in the Quentin Tarantino movie that is Afghanistan.
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You seem to really not want to say anything about how multiple soldiers were seen involved. There could be more than one person. How big of a conspiracy it is, I don't know. It might just be a unit of Green Berets who felt like killing people. But it doesn't seem like a lone crazy. Either that or Karzai is lying.
You raise a good point. But why would Green Berets just go around shooting civilians? Maybe the civilians were actually insurgents and the Green Berets were fed up with military bureaucracy and decided to take things into their own hands. They've probably got some real strong leader behind them, able to keep his men in line. My best guess is that the major was just a government scapegoat. Perhaps the GBs have a renegade base somewhere in the depths of the afghan mountains where they mount barbaric attacks against insurgent groups. Who knows, maybe they're behind all of the "friendly fire" incidents with Pakistan? Anyway, the US military is probably going to send some SOC assassin to find that base and kill their leader; he'll probably have to hitch a ride with supply trucks and the US military will just use all of the increased insurgent activity to cover up the assassination. Of course, by now everyone has probably gone insane at the renegade camp and the rogue GB leader will probably just manage to capture the assassin. I'd be willing to bet that with how crazy things are it's just a ploy to have the assassin give the GB leader a warrior's death. Then The End. Definitely. This has to be what's happening.
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Did you ever see the movie, "Apocalypse Now?" Well guess what? That actually happened!
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Cabin Fever. Stick 2 armed groups who each assume the worst of the others' motives in close proximity for long enough and people will snap, even people as highly trained as soldiers.
Especially when you consider that when people were killed over the burning of a Koran, I think a lot of soldiers felt that the apology over the burning took precedence over protecting the lives of the people being killed. I think a lot of the people out there are disillusioned and angry and tired of having the worst assumed of them, from either side. This testimony from one person that multiple soldiers were involved automatically being considered valid despite zero supporting evidence is an example of how that works.
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Did you ever see the movie, "Apocalypse Now?" Well guess what? That actually happened!
Heart of Darkness
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Did you ever see the movie, "Apocalypse Now?" Well guess what? That actually happened!
Heart of Darkness
Goddamn Congo Free State seeping up to multiple discussions
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Uh, neither Heart of Darkness nor Apocalypse now are non-fictional accounts, or indeed, even grounded heavily in true events. The novella is closest, and it's still just loosely-based on the experiences the author had in Africa...
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I'm both inclined towards said non-com snapping, and HEAVILY disappointed with the US-Army for letting it happen. I've got friends out there, may well more than likely be getting out there later this year myself too. The last thing i need is someone kicking the f**king ees nest beforehand.
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Uh, neither Heart of Darkness nor Apocalypse now are non-fictional accounts, or indeed, even grounded heavily in true events. The novella is closest, and it's still just loosely-based on the experiences the author had in Africa...
You mean I wrote that post as a sly way of implying all of samiam's conspiracy theory ideas were completely unrealistic? :eek:
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Uh, neither Heart of Darkness nor Apocalypse now are non-fictional accounts, or indeed, even grounded heavily in true events. The novella is closest, and it's still just loosely-based on the experiences the author had in Africa...
You mean I wrote that post as a sly way of implying all of samiam's conspiracy theory ideas were completely unrealistic? :eek:
I was actually referring to samiam's claim that Apocalypse Now's events actually happened, not your post.
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:confused: I thought he was saying 'actually happened' as in the actually happened in a movie. I guess it kind of nullifies my post's effect if he thinks it's plausible IRL.
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I was simply being snobby and pointing out what Kubrick's film was based on, not implying it was based on actual events. :P
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That would be the best solution, but somebody should stick around to ensure he gets a psych evaluation and a fair, civilized trial. If done properly (ha ha) this could be a milestone in American-Afghani relations.
I think the milestone in American-Afghani relations was reached in 2001 and a few tens of thousands of dead ago
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:confused: I thought he was saying 'actually happened' as in the actually happened in a movie. I guess it kind of nullifies my post's effect if he thinks it's plausible IRL.
I don't know. There were multiple failures to use the sarcastica font :P
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:confused: I thought he was saying 'actually happened' as in the actually happened in a movie. I guess it kind of nullifies my post's effect if he thinks it's plausible IRL.
Well, he/she was pretty emotionally invested in the CIA conspiracy theory, don't think we can rule it out.
Or the next post will be "lol i trol u", either way.
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Women never come up with CIA conspiracy theories. Only neckbeards like me.
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You guys should stop playing with your food. The Poeslaw is getting everywhere.
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Indeed. Gotta contain the spread.