Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kolgena on May 22, 2012, 01:04:25 pm

Title: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Kolgena on May 22, 2012, 01:04:25 pm
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/05/gesture-controls-get-a-huge-boost-with-new-leap-interaction-system/

This looks pretty cool. Not only do you get to pretend that you're Tony Stark, but you can use things that need touch screen inputs without owning a touchscreen or leaving fingerprints everywhere.

Since windows 8 is supposed to support touch, this might work especially well with the upcoming OS.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: z64555 on May 22, 2012, 01:08:18 pm
It might be a big boon for 3D model creation/editing.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Scourge of Ages on May 22, 2012, 06:49:12 pm
That looks really cool. However, I'll wait until there are some real-world tests and reviews before going and getting one. I'm not sure if precise work will be all that precise without physical feedback and resistance, like you get with a mouse.

Honestly, I think they might be going the wrong way in terms of interface philosophy, that perhaps what we need is a more tactile interface, instead of less.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: z64555 on May 22, 2012, 09:31:57 pm
For tactile feedback, you could get a pen-like device hooked up to the computer that will gently vibrate when resistance is felt.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Aardwolf on May 22, 2012, 10:28:11 pm
Nah, they already got this ultrasound thing that can make it feel like something's resisting at a specific point. Not sure how much pressure though.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Dilmah G on May 22, 2012, 11:41:46 pm
Honestly, I think they might be going the wrong way in terms of interface philosophy, that perhaps what we need is a more tactile interface, instead of less.
Why do you think so? I reckon Tony Starking it would be ****ing cool.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Scourge of Ages on May 23, 2012, 12:06:04 am
Why do you think so? I reckon Tony Starking it would be ****ing cool.
Cool, certainly, but until we have holographic displays like he did, we won't be able to actually touch the things you're interacting with. You're just waving your fingers in the air, fighting gravity to try to keep your hand steady while you try to hit something that's inches or feet away from your fingers, with only your eyes to guide you.
Like operating a marionette, but you don't even get to pull on the strings to feel the weight.

EDIT: HAHA! Found it! This explains it better than I could, and is the reason I was able to explain it even that well: http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Mikes on May 23, 2012, 04:14:51 am
EDIT: HAHA! Found it! This explains it better than I could, and is the reason I was able to explain it even that well: http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/

He makes some very good points.... but as to where he is ultimately going, i.e. his closing remark: "With an entire body at your command, do you seriously think the Future Of Interaction should be a single finger?", he's quite a bit off imho.

The answer to his question is rather simply: Because people are lazy.

I.e. he is dreaming about interfaces that take all "human capabilities" into account... but he neglects what most people want: "convenience" / "least effort" / etc.
He does have a point about the fallacies of the current technolody, i.e.: Touching pictures behind glass with a finger is just very limiting. What he misses is that waggling a finger does take little effort.

As to the OP... waggling a finger in front of a big screen (without touching) does take quite a bit of effort as your hands/arms are not supported. Hence... it will propably be a niche technology at best. ;)
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Dragon on May 23, 2012, 06:21:54 am
Well, for some purposes (mostly gaming), whole body "gestures" might indeed be the future. On the other hand (ba-dum-tish (http://instantrimshot.com/)), handling basic interface would rather be done with a finger or, for complex operations, the entire palm. I don't use my HOTAS to move the mouse pointer and click on desktop icons, I use it to control simulators which can take adventage of it's various functions. I have yet to find a game that would use about 300 independent bindings this set can offer, so I think that full body control would only be useful for motion capture.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Ghostavo on May 23, 2012, 06:31:18 am
EDIT: HAHA! Found it! This explains it better than I could, and is the reason I was able to explain it even that well: http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/

He makes some very good points.... but as to where he is ultimately going, i.e. his closing remark: "With an entire body at your command, do you seriously think the Future Of Interaction should be a single finger?", he's quite a bit off imho.

The answer to his question is rather simply: Because people are lazy.

I.e. he is dreaming about interfaces that take all "human capabilities" into account... but he neglects what most people want: "convenience" / "least effort" / etc.
He does have a point about the fallacies of the current technolody, i.e.: Touching pictures behind glass with a finger is just very limiting. What he misses is that waggling a finger does take little effort.

As to the OP... waggling a finger in front of a big screen (without touching) does take quite a bit of effort as your hands/arms are not supported. Hence... it will propably be a niche technology at best. ;)

There are other ways people could interact with a computer with little effort besides waving their finger around.

You could have minor functions distributed throughout your body. For instance, your head (specifically your eyes) could be used to focus screen objects for interaction. There is already research and prototypes about using eyes as an interface input for people with disabilities, so this is not farfetched.

What could be farfetched, or just blatant speculation (but really really cool), would be to use body cues to interact with your computer. The computer would try to guess what you want based on what appears to be basically nothing. There has been research on computers detecting mood so maybe someday...

Finger wagging while nice is limited. That's his point.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: redsniper on May 23, 2012, 05:46:14 pm
What could be farfetched, or just blatant speculation (but really really cool), would be to use body cues to interact with your computer. The computer would try to guess what you want based on what appears to be basically nothing. There has been research on computers detecting mood so maybe someday...

WOULD YOU LIKE A KITTEN PICTURE?
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: BloodEagle on May 23, 2012, 06:01:07 pm
HAVE SOME PORNOGRAPHY MEATY HUMAN

Kids: "What's that lady doing?"
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Aardwolf on May 23, 2012, 06:08:04 pm
Nobody responding to my ultrasound comment :(
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 24, 2012, 02:15:25 am
it didn't really call for a response.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Aardwolf on May 24, 2012, 06:17:50 pm
But it's awesome! They make the peaks of the ultrasound from multiple sources meet at a specific point, so that it feels like there's something there!

Or is that what this article is about? I didn't actually read it  :nervous:
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Scourge of Ages on May 24, 2012, 07:26:48 pm
But it's awesome! They make the peaks of the ultrasound from multiple sources meet at a specific point, so that it feels like there's something there!

Or is that what this article is about? I didn't actually read it  :nervous:

OK, that does seem like it could be pretty cool. Do you have a link or something?
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Kolgena on May 24, 2012, 08:02:22 pm
It should just feel like a small point of air that vibrates (which is pretty cool). I don't see how it could generate a catching/resisting sensation though.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Aardwolf on May 24, 2012, 08:39:16 pm
Ok, this isn't the article I remembered seeing before, but here's a link with a video:

http://www.alab.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~siggraph/08/Tactile/SIGGRAPH08-Tactile.html
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Scourge of Ages on May 25, 2012, 02:01:38 am
Ah, yes, that does look very interesting.

Ultrasonic pressure waves + the Leap thing would be a huge step in the right direction. Then you add in VR goggles or whatever we can do for holograms, and you would actually start to be able to touch and manipulate virtual things in the real world.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Mikes on May 25, 2012, 02:03:50 pm
For tactile feedback, you could get a pen-like device hooked up to the computer that will gently vibrate when resistance is felt.

A pen like device already gives you very good tacticle feedback and allows you to manipulate not just where you write, but what pressure you want to apply.

In addition, it allows you to quickly change input modes either by the press of a button on the pen or by simply flipping the pen (for example, to use the eraser function).


Ever used a proper WACOM "penabled" Tablet running Win7 with One Note for taking notes or with a graphics program to draw? The technology is quite advanced. (offering several thousand levels of pressure detection while touching the screen and a "floating cursor" while hovering above the screen, while being incredibly responsive, i.e. completely "lag" free.) It pretty much feels "just right", which is - I guess - the highest praise an input technology can get.

As someone who is used to working with an active digitizer tablet.... the whole "finger tablet craze" really has me shaking my head...   the finger as an input method is so clumsy in comparison to an active digitizer pen that trying to use those "finger tablets" for work, i.e. productive activities, is just completely out of the question. For work, i.e. for content creation,.... seeing a tablet that is limited to finger input is pretty much just as ridiculous as trying to get any work done with crayons or fingerpainting colors. It's in every way inferior to both: active pens or keyboard+mouse.

The only thing that the "finger" has going for it is the convenience of a completely integrated solution. A subpar solution for tasks that do not require any precision or speed. It's a solution suited for content consumption devices that require only limited user input and completely fails (in comparison to mouse+kb or active digitizers) as soon as you do any content creation / work.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 25, 2012, 04:44:24 pm
i recently had to sign with my finger to pay for lunch at a place that used an ipad as their cash register.  nevermind not looking ANYTHING like my signature, i didn't even manage to stay inside the box. 
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Mongoose on May 25, 2012, 04:58:02 pm
Without a proper stylus, I can't stand touchscreens.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Dragon on May 25, 2012, 05:00:17 pm
i recently had to sign with my finger to pay for lunch at a place that used an ipad as their cash register.  nevermind not looking ANYTHING like my signature, i didn't even manage to stay inside the box.
As if they couldn't just take your fingerprint...
That would seriously make "signing" things much easier, one touch and you're good to go. Not to mention it's rather difficult to counterfeit.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Kolgena on May 25, 2012, 05:07:28 pm
There may be privacy issues and such if everyone's fingerprint were so readily available like that.

Have to agree about finger touchpads. I hate my fingers when trying to do work on my iphone. They're way too fat to be accurate, and they also block out all of what I need to look at when clicking something.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Dragon on May 25, 2012, 05:27:56 pm
There may be privacy issues and such if everyone's fingerprint were so readily available like that.
Well, as I understand it, one's fingerprint is just like a signature, except more reliable. I don't know what privacy issues would be there (afterall, if you signed something, then your signature is also readily available).
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: BloodEagle on May 25, 2012, 09:43:09 pm
There may be privacy issues and such if everyone's fingerprint were so readily available like that.
Well, as I understand it, one's fingerprint is just like a signature, except more reliable. I don't know what privacy issues would be there (afterall, if you signed something, then your signature is also readily available).

Law enforcement databases.  Fingerprint forgery.  Etc.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 25, 2012, 10:05:20 pm
a fingerprint is a hell of a lot more personal and identifying than a signature.  it would be kinda like using your SSN to "sign" for things.  (i said KINDA, don't go shooting holes in that!)
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Scotty on May 25, 2012, 10:08:37 pm
It's also relatively trivial to lift a fingerprint from something, if slightly more difficult to actually do anything with it.  Still possible, though.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: z64555 on May 25, 2012, 10:41:49 pm
Retinal scans FTL.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Kolgena on May 26, 2012, 12:17:20 am
Also, with signatures, you have to have volition to leave one behind. With fingerprints, you don't have control over when you "distribute" them, which is pretty much all the time. It'd be like if your shoes were dipped in ink and stamped your signature wherever you went.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Mikes on May 26, 2012, 05:01:43 am
Without a proper stylus, I can't stand touchscreens.

Using any stylus on any capacitive touchscreen is an outright horrible experience in my eyes. Touchscreens simply do not have the sensor coverage to allow any kind of precision pen input...  nor do they need to, as they are built for fingers, not pens. As a result thoese "styli" that are sold are sadly just ridiculous novelties/toys and simply unsuited for getting anything done.



What you want is an activice digitizer (i.e. WACOM tech). Then you get a proper precise pen that works like a proper pen should.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 26, 2012, 07:15:22 am
stylus.. es(?) worked quite well in the brief era of PDAs.  we could just go back to whatever kinds of screens those were.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: The E on May 26, 2012, 07:31:15 am
Those were called resistive screens. To be perfectly honest, I don't see how going back to them would be an improvement, giving that capacitative screens are much less susceptible to damage, and that good capacitative screens are quite accurate.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Mongoose on May 26, 2012, 12:28:57 pm
Without a proper stylus, I can't stand touchscreens.

Using any stylus on any capacitive touchscreen is an outright horrible experience in my eyes. Touchscreens simply do not have the sensor coverage to allow any kind of precision pen input...  nor do they need to, as they are built for fingers, not pens. As a result thoese "styli" that are sold are sadly just ridiculous novelties/toys and simply unsuited for getting anything done.
I'm not talking about using a stylus on a normal touchscreen designed for hands, but sytems that are designed for styli from the get-go.  I'm mostly thinking about the Nintendo DS from personal experience, but on the tablet side of things, I've seen ads for some model that incorporates one.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Scourge of Ages on May 26, 2012, 02:13:19 pm
I'm not talking about using a stylus on a normal touchscreen designed for hands, but sytems that are designed for styli from the get-go.  I'm mostly thinking about the Nintendo DS from personal experience, but on the tablet side of things, I've seen ads for some model that incorporates one.

I think the DS touchscreen is resistive. And it shows, if you've used Pictochat to draw, or games where you do stuff like that, like Brain Training. No matter how careful you're being, the lines always come out pixelated and wobbly due to the limitations. Active digitizers like in a Wacom tablet or tablet PC work so much better and smoother.
Title: Re: Touchscreen functionality without the (ew) touching!
Post by: Mongoose on May 26, 2012, 07:00:50 pm
Well yeah, but that's also because the original DS has a pretty low-res screen, so even with a better input method, you're still going to get a case of the jaggies.  I'm all for pairing styluses with awesome hi-res surfaces.