Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: jadeddragoon on June 03, 2012, 05:35:29 pm
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I'd just like to say, after playing WiH (Part 1?) again and for the record, the ending of Delend Est and Sunglare PISSES ME RIGHT THE %^@# OFF!
- The Wargods have been gutted
- The last chance to turn the tide against the TEVs turned into crushing blow for the UEF instead
- The Vasudans are in the war against us raising the TEV's already insurmountable warmachine to the power of 2
- Moral is officially crushed
- Ng'Mei is dead
- Simms is possibly (probably?) dead
- The Elders are still playing their indecipherable game of chess with the fate of humanity
- The mysteries surrounding Laporte are still not even close to being answered
- The Fedayeen have popped out of the mists of myth with no more than a "hi, how are you? we only came case the fate of the human race rests on the shoulders of one of your fighter jockeys... the rest of you could fall into the sun for all we care" for explanation
I swear to god I'm gonna paint the night sky of every planet in the bodies and refuse of the lot of them. Screw Ubuntu, screw The Damned Elders, and triple @#$%ing screw the TEVs with the pointy end of Byrne's precious Solaris. I'll fill the empty space between worlds with the blood of them all and not once regret a single bullet, ray, beam, or missile... save those that miss. Were bloody hell is part two already? I need to make some one bleed.
/rant
no in all seriousness... Blue Planet was pretty cool... but War in Heaven is just flat out epic. And while I really am a hairs breadth from pulling my hair out waiting for the conclusion I'd not rush the process if my life depended on it. The ending really does piss me off btw... but in a good way. :-P
Till then...
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:eek2:
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what's happening here?
*takes a look*
YEAH, IT'S RANTING TIME BABY!
:nervous:
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:nervous:
I actually cheered when the Imperieuse jumped in. After shouting profanities at my computer throughout the mission when I thought the Wargods were going to pull it off.
I also failed the mission twice because I refused to disarm the Iolanthe or Deneira.
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Now, how can things get even worse from here?
- The destruction of a UEF Destroyer while Laporte is present trying to defend it
- The Vasudan logistics ship finding out about the GTVA plot, only to get destroyed before they can inform the rest of their fellow Vasudans.
- Admiral Steele actually surviving the war and never dying at the hands of ANY foe, be it UEF or Shivan
- The UEF War Machine getting crushed, and Laporte being forced to go into hiding and fight like the GEF were
- Naomi getting further character development (Before the beginning of Delenda Est, she stated her current reason for fighting was to help her now-dead comrades. She will have to re-think her motives for fighting - yet again)
- UEF super project troubles! Mission dialogue in The Plunder suggests that the UEF are at least not stupid enough willing to put all their eggs in one basket, so if part of their project gets destroyed it might not be a completely fatal blow
- The destruction of Serkr Team at the hands of some new threat
- Subspace-induced ship collisions! Remember Dive Dive Dive? Some UEF fighter wings might not be so quick to react...
- A darker side of Ubuntu gets shown. Having a philosophy, a religion, and a political party all ruled into one just seems like a pretty good recipe for authoritarian control....
- In fact, we can expect to find dark motives behind the actions of -every- faction in the game, if the general mood of the mod is any indication.
- Project Nagari has loads of potential to be extra creepy/horrifying
- Solis Lacus camp, anyone? GTVA soldiers are probably afraid of it for a very good reason.
- Orbital Bombardment of Earth itself, at the hands of something that is not Shivan. The irony of the GTVA destroying Earth is just too good to pass up.
- Some other plot developments that the Blue Planet team has no doubt already come up with
I don't expect to see the Shivans show up until near the very end. Way too much drama and plot threads hanging for the Shivans to show up just yet.
We can of course count on seeing yet more friendly warships getting destroyed at the hands of the GTVA. War is hell.
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I actually cheered when the Imperieuse jumped in...
While I agree with the sentiment that the UEF are all morons, I was actually pretty into the game. Even later, I was just annoyed because I have to go through so much trouble to protect those stupid weak-ass frigates then a destroyer jumps in and deus ex machinates 3/4 of them anyways.
e: I LOVE watching a video of the incident though.
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deus ex machinates
well not so much
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deus ex machinates
well not so much
Spell correct offered that and it sounded silly enough so I went for it.
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No I just mean it's not a deus ex machina, that is a different thing - a dramatic device that never to my knowledge occurs in BP2. This is more of a peripeteia.
A lot of BP2 is structured along classical Greek lines (Aristeia is a great example of this in miniature). It's illuminating to hunt for the moment of anagnorisis - has Laporte achieved it yet?
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:nervous:
I actually cheered when the Imperieuse jumped in. After shouting profanities at my computer throughout the mission when I thought the Wargods were going to pull it off.
I also failed the mission twice because I refused to disarm the Iolanthe or Deneira.
*fist bump*
Me too.
And Steele surviving the war would be it getting better, Alex. He's my favourite magnificient bastard character by far.
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deus ex machinates
well not so much
Spell correct offered that and it sounded silly enough so I went for it.
When you think about it, it's a pretty literal fit for the Vishnans.
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No I just mean it's not a deus ex machina, that is a different thing - a dramatic device that never to my knowledge occurs in BP2. This is more of a peripeteia.
A lot of BP2 is structured along classical Greek lines (Aristeia is a great example of this in miniature). It's illuminating to hunt for the moment of anagnorisis - has Laporte achieved it yet?
The Imperieuse showing up certainly wasn't a deus ex machina.
The Imperieuse showing up after having had a sheath shielding system installed, on the other hand... :p
More seriously, anagnorisis: I'd place Laporte's in the Delenda Est fiction viewer (where, as usual, it precedes the peripeteia). Her realization about why she fights (for her fellow wargods) actually has a big impact on how Delenda Est unfolds, because we see that's why the rest of the Wargods are fighting, too. If the captains of the Altan Orde, Katana, Insuperable, and Kyoto had been fighting primarily out of bloodlust or even for the UEF's cause, they would have rammed all four of their ships into the Carthage one after another and reduced it to scrap metal. They were right on top of it, and the Imperieuse and Hydra weren't close enough to open fire in time to stop them. Instead, they decided to give up their chance to finish the mission in favor of buying a few of their comrades a small chance to escape. It's a testament to Steele's abilities as a military psychologist that he knew the Wargods' mindset with enough certainty that he felt he could set up his trap in such a way that he would have almost certainly lost the Carthage if he had been wrong.
Laporte's fairly smart, so she'll probably figure out that her way of thinking turned what could have been a draw or a Pyrrhic victory into the most crushing defeat since the fall of Jupiter. I'm curious to see how this affects her, and what she'll do if she's presented with a similar choice. You most make R2.
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Screw Ubuntu, screw The Damned Elders, and triple @#$%ing screw the TEVs with the pointy end of Byrne's precious Solaris.
I would like to see that.
However am I the only one that supports the UEF?
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Nah, all humans in their right mind support the UEF. Unfortunately, humans aren't the most vocal out here...
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Screw Ubuntu, screw The Damned Elders, and triple @#$%ing screw the TEVs with the pointy end of Byrne's precious Solaris.
I would like to see that.
However am I the only one that supports the UEF?
1. I wonder what the Vasudan package given to Laporte is. And whatever the Elders' mystery plan is, I'd like to see it blow up in their faces. I think at this point, state secrets are really going to make a lot of pilots throw up in their breather masks. (Or worse, players spitting coffee or soda all across their screens.) Kyle's gonna be pissed off if he finds out too much ground was given up for something nuts.
2. Your question presents a fuzzy situation to me.
The story as I see it:
Say your little brother came back home from someplace out in the field that sucked. Now he wants to take your room. And he's so bitter, he'll want that room or else he'll tear up the whole house. But you don't want to give him your room because he's going to dig into places you don't want and end up with it trashed.
The grand question is: who the heck's going to sleep on the couch?
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You forgot the "Your brother started by punching you in the face and then asked for stuff" part.
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You forgot the "Your brother filled up your room while you were gone with hookah and potsmoke as part of a re-envisioning of his image after you moved out" part.
See? I can make nonsensical and ridiculously generalized statements too.
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However am I the only one that supports the UEF?
I'd say no. There's a fair bit of support for each faction (for the record I'm one of the Tev supporters).
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:nervous:
I actually cheered when the Imperieuse jumped in. After shouting profanities at my computer throughout the mission when I thought the Wargods were going to pull it off.
I also failed the mission twice because I refused to disarm the Iolanthe or Deneira.
*fist bump*
Me too.
And Steele surviving the war would be it getting better, Alex. He's my favourite magnificient bastard character by far.
^ This. Steele is a boss.
On the topic of the brother thing, he also needs your room because he's going to use it as an office to start a home business in order to feed your family when the economic crash he knows is coming happens. He needs the resources your room offers in order to protect the entire family.
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:nervous:
I actually cheered when the Imperieuse jumped in. After shouting profanities at my computer throughout the mission when I thought the Wargods were going to pull it off.
I also failed the mission twice because I refused to disarm the Iolanthe or Deneira.
*fist bump*
Me too.
And Steele surviving the war would be it getting better, Alex. He's my favourite magnificient bastard character by far.
^ This. Steele is a boss.
On the topic of the brother thing, he also needs your room because he's going to use it as an office to start a home business in order to feed your family when the economic crash he knows is coming happens. He needs the resources your room offers in order to protect the entire family.
Yea, So first he trashes the hella outa your room, crippling the base infrastructure and then rebuilds it all from scratch using up already low resources?
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On the topic of the brother thing, he also needs your room because he's going to use it as an office to start a home business in order to feed your family when the economic crash he knows is coming happens. He needs the resources your room offers in order to protect the entire family.
He needs the resources for feeding HIS side of the family. If he didn't came crashing in your room and pushing you in the face YOU wouldn't have any problem feeding YOUR side of the family in the first place. And you would have been more than happy to negotiate for said resources if he was willing to ask nicely.
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Yup they probably would, but asking nicely doesn't involve going all beam-free-all on the first ship you encounter.
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When you were quite young, you and your brother got on the wrong side of the Russian mafia. You both split up and went into hiding, and you haven't heard from either your brother or the Russians for several decades. In the meantime, you've gotten married and had several kids, and you've been very successful in your career.
One day, your brother shows up covered in Neo-Nazi tattoos with five chicks he's knocked up and the twenty or so kids he's had between them. He says that he's been one step ahead of the Ruskies ever since you parted company, and he needs some place to hide and money to support his family. You're not thrilled with what he's turned into (and you're more than a little angry that he's probably led the Russian mafia to your family), but he's still your brother, so you're about to offer to let him hide out in the basement and write him a check for a couple thousand dollars. You can afford it.
But before you can do either of those, he pulls a gun on you and demands all your money. You and your family can still live in one of your walk-in closets and he'll give you food, but the house is his. You can't be a Unitarian anymore, and you have to start voting Republican. On the plus side, if the Russians follow him to your home, he'll combine your money with his to fight them off!
Well, this doesn't sound so great, and you're also kind of wondering how he plans to fight off the entire Russian mafia. You're a pretty peaceful guy, but you recognize that not everyone is like you, so you've got a shotgun for home defense. You use it to repulse his initial attempt to take your house by storm, but he shoots a couple of your kids in the process. Then he goes two houses down the block and starts shooting people in there. He takes over their house, fortifies it, and starts using it as a forward base in his attempt to take over your place (which he still wants because it's nicer).
You call the police, but your brother pays them off and tells them that you started the whole thing. They aren't willing to storm your house for him, but they'll give him some of their SWAT team's equipment. You and your next-door neighbor, plus a few survivors from the house your brother took over, get together to fight him off.
It doesn't go so well, and your brother burns down your garage and shoots you and your wife, inflicting massive damage on your house (which I guess he still wants or something?) before your schizophrenic daughter barely drives him off. It's all in her hands now.
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Win.
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When you were quite young, you and your brother got on the wrong side of the Russian mafia. You both split up and went into hiding, and you haven't heard from either your brother or the Russians for several decades. In the meantime, you've gotten married and had several kids, and you've been very successful in your career.
One day, your brother shows up covered in Neo-Nazi tattoos with five chicks he's knocked up and the twenty or so kids he's had between them. He says that he's been one step ahead of the Ruskies ever since you parted company, and he needs some place to hide and money to support his family. You're not thrilled with what he's turned into (and you're more than a little angry that he's probably led the Russian mafia to your family), but he's still your brother, so you're about to offer to let him hide out in the basement and write him a check for a couple thousand dollars. You can afford it.
But before you can do either of those, he pulls a gun on you and demands all your money. You and your family can still live in one of your walk-in closets and he'll give you food, but the house is his. You can't be a Unitarian anymore, and you have to start voting Republican. On the plus side, if the Russians follow him to your home, he'll combine your money with his to fight them off!
Well, this doesn't sound so great, and you're also kind of wondering how he plans to fight off the entire Russian mafia. You're a pretty peaceful guy, but you recognize that not everyone is like you, so you've got a shotgun for home defense. You use it to repulse his initial attempt to take your house by storm, but he shoots a couple of your kids in the process. Then he goes two houses down the block and starts shooting people in there. He takes over their house, fortifies it, and starts using it as a forward base in his attempt to take over your place (which he still wants because it's nicer).
You call the police, but your brother pays them off and tells them that you started the whole thing. They aren't willing to storm your house for him, but they'll give him some of their SWAT team's equipment. You and your next-door neighbor, plus a few survivors from the house your brother took over, get together to fight him off.
It doesn't go so well, and your brother burns down your garage and shoots you and your wife, inflicting massive damage on your house (which I guess he still wants or something?) before your schizophrenic daughter barely drives him off. It's all in her hands now.
Except that your getaway driver all those years ago, the famous Alpha 1 who then disapeared without a trace, warned you that no matter how well you hid, the Russians could be back, crazy brother or no. The showdown with the Russians was coming either way, and your brother is convinced that you weren't prepared for it, having not faced the same challenges as him
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Possibly the best summary of BP I've ever seen :D
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Look at it this way its like humanity was split in two by a giant war with aliens and one half is safe from the aliens and becomes a bunch of hippies while the other half has to fight to survive and oh wait
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Look at it this way its like humanity was split in two by a giant war with aliens and one half is safe from the aliens and becomes a bunch of hippies while the other half has to fight to survive and oh wait
Come on, that's nothing like BP!
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awesome description of BP WiH
And all along, you recognized that you could never drive your brother off through brute force. You haven't stocked enough shotgun rounds defeat all his kids, and his superior weaponry allows him to lay down more suppressing fire than you could hope to match. Your schizophrenic daughter wouldn't trust you, so she went off to join your neighbours' attempt to fight off your brother.
Unfortunately, many of your neighbours got pinned down and annihilated during an attack on your brother, leaving your daughter stranded and badly dehydrated without shade in the bright sunlight.
Meanwhile, you're trying to come up with some secret plan that will drive off your brother for good, and possibly the Russian Mafia.
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awesome description of BP WiH
And all along, you recognized that you could never drive your brother off through brute force. You haven't stocked enough shotgun rounds defeat all his kids, and his superior weaponry allows him to lay down more suppressing fire than you could hope to match. Your schizophrenic daughter wouldn't trust you, so she went off to join your neighbours' attempt to fight off your brother.
Unfortunately, many of your neighbours got pinned down and annihilated during an attack on your brother, leaving your daughter stranded and badly dehydrated without shade in the bright sunlight.
Meanwhile, you're trying to come up with some secret plan that will drive off your brother for good, and possibly the Russian Mafia.
Or just tell the mafia where the brother is and then run like hell.
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ok i think the analogy is dead now.
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ok i think the analogy is dead now.
Is it? I'm still following.
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there is some strange **** being passed around the halls of HLP atm :pimp:
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Well, ever since I saw judgefloro, nothing that happens around here surprises me.
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deus ex machinates
well not so much
I have my own criticisms, but Battuta is totally right on this one. There are a lot of subtle hints about the Imperiouse when you look back. Especially that one (or two) about that rogue SOC mission where the fighters and transports came from a completely unknown location, and how several strike craft raids by the GTVA couldn't be vectored to or from a known location...which is the fleet carrier-destroyer Imperiouse.
The bigger problem is that the UEF bet everything on the indirect words of ONE source in the GTVA. ONE. And everyone in the UEF knows what Steele is like and how unpredictable he is, and how he does the impossible on occasion.
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I'd have thought that if Steele wanted his ace in the hole to remain hidden he would have forbidden flight ops (excluding the CAP). Good point on the rogue SOC squad though.
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I'm curious if we'll ever discover who that source was. Steele had control over intelligence, and much like in a game of chess, he planned ahead to use that advantage to full effect, that is to draw out the Wargods and shatter them. Steele's a genius (almost Kane-like) leading the UEF by the nose in every aspect. He only gives the enemy a small victory to make it later into a crushing defeat.
He's a great character, and the GTVA has a superior military, but that grants them no sympathy from me. I know the UEF comes off as incompetent (and I'm pretty sure that's intended), and that's one of the reasons some people like the GTVA better. It's easy to fight a war and roll over the enemy in every single battle when your side has 5x the enemy fleetpower. I don't think there was a single mission where I could say "Yes, if I did something different, I'd definitely have won" (not using knowledge you gain during and after the mission of course).
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The thread "Conversations from War in Heaven" strongly hints at the source being Admiral Thea Carey, formerly of the GTD Temeraire, Terran 14th Battlegroup.
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Yes. It's nearly to be considered as confirmed by now.
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Oh cool, I'll check it out, thanks!
EDIT: Now I'm curious how they made her into a double agent of sorts. Answers spawn more questions it seems. It's a shame she got caught, I wonder what'll happen to her.
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I hope she gets shot for treason.
Medve: right, because it's impossible that GTVA supporters might actually believe the GTVA's reasons for going to war are justified. You're free to interpret the situation as you like, but don't think those who support the GTVA only do so because they're winning/have a stronger military.
Also, the GTVA doesn't really have a much stronger presence in Sol than the UEF does. Play BP2-massivebattle, and you'll notice the UEF is almost always the winner.
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Play BP2-massivebattle, and then keep in mind that massive frame-rate drops make beam weapons do less damage. Beam damage as assigned per frame.
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I hope she gets shot for treason.
Medve: right, because it's impossible that GTVA supporters might actually believe the GTVA's reasons for going to war are justified. You're free to interpret the situation as you like, but don't think those who support the GTVA only do so because they're winning/have a stronger military.
Also, the GTVA doesn't really have a much stronger presence in Sol than the UEF does. Play BP2-massivebattle, and you'll notice the UEF is almost always the winner.
Sorry if my post gave the wrong ideas. I know the GTVA has its own ideology to begin with, even though I didn't write about it. In fact, that's kind of the point of the whole story, nobody is right or wrong. However I sure as hell didn't generalize all the GTVA supporters (read: "some people"). It's just one possible reason I wrote, I know my friend sides with GTVA because they're "more competent", he simply dislikes the UEF for that.
Of course you and me can just speculatie how much power both sides truly has. It was stated in the campaign that the GTVA has at least 3x the destroyer count (+vasudans now) and that losing a frigate is a great blow to the UEF while the GTVA can afford destroyer losses. I was basing stuff off of that. Also, framerate based weapon jamming. Genius.
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Scotty: That's a decent point. Chalk it up to UEF jamming or something.
Medve: Yes, the GTVA has 5 destroyers in Sol compared to the UEF's 3. However, only two of the Tev destroyers are a match for a Solaris (the Atreus and the Imperieuse). The Hecate is inferior on pretty much every point, and the Vasudans are only providing logistical support (as far as we know). The reason the GTVA can afford destroyer casualties is because they've got another 20 or so outside Sol (which can't be deployed to Sol for various reasons), and that their entire military philosophy revolves around what is or isn't acceptable losses. Generally speaking, the GTVA is a lot more willing to sacrifice one to save two, whereas the UEF is more liable to try to save everyone. There are exceptions, of course.
TBH, I'm still not convinced the UEF plan to kill the Carthage would have ended the war, had it worked.
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The bigger problem is that the UEF bet everything on the indirect words of ONE source in the GTVA. ONE. And everyone in the UEF knows what Steele is like and how unpredictable he is, and how he does the impossible on occasion.
And that they didn't have stealth fighters sitting a couple hundred kilometers off the node, keeping track of what went in and what came out 24/7. UEF Intelligence's failure to do that is just criminally stupid.
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what is the state of UEF stealth tech? they might have access to the Loki at the time of the node collapse depending on where research was based. Also how does stealth sit with UEF philosophy? on one hand it is useful for covertly dealing with issues, but on the other hand it is underhanded and dishonorable.
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The WiH update included a stealth fighter, so we know that they do have access to stealth tech. And Laporte talking about how "in fighting the enemy we are becoming the enemy" or something like that suggests that the UEF will take any option it has at this point.
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I hope she gets shot for treason.
Medve: right, because it's impossible that GTVA supporters might actually believe the GTVA's reasons for going to war are justified. You're free to interpret the situation as you like, but don't think those who support the GTVA only do so because they're winning/have a stronger military.
Also, the GTVA doesn't really have a much stronger presence in Sol than the UEF does. Play BP2-massivebattle, and you'll notice the UEF is almost always the winner.
Agreed for that traitorous swine.
- Whatever happened to the Meridian btw? It was critically damaged. Did it withdraw downing Terran Destroyer contingent to 4? Or was it just chilling at Jupiter getting repaired? If it withdrew, was it ever replaced with something else?
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I'm fairly sure it's just being repaired at the closest dock until it can go back and do some shooting. Admiral Carey just stood by what she thought right. That's what everyone does in this war. Her way of supporting it was underhanded at the very least, but it's not like the Tevs distance themselves from such methods.
Aessar: I didn't have that much info on how/why the GTVA distributes its forces, and I tend not to speculate. I understand your point. Steele's superior tactics and leadership plus the GTVA-s philosophy about fighting is what got them so far. That philosophy of "sacrifice one to save two" also gives way to more aggressive strategies and is more flexible.
As for the Carthage, I agree, military wise it wouldn't have been a battle that ends the war, but it could have some political effects and it would certainly buy some time for that crazy plan of the elders.
LordPomposity: If it's that easy to gather intel with stealth fighters, then why don't both sides use it everywhere? Just send one "a couple hundred kilometers" off of anything they want to observe, and there you go, 100% accurate real time intel on all ships, planets, installations etc. Whenever they see a jump, just use its vectors to follow the jumping ship.
My point is, I don't think that it's that simple. If it is, I'd seriously ask someone from BP to correct that because it's horrifyingly 'overpowered' and would make recon/intel gathering rather dull.
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LordPomposity: If it's that easy to gather intel with stealth fighters, then why don't both sides use it everywhere?
Now tell me... If they were doing just that, how the hell would you know ? :p
And that they didn't have stealth fighters sitting a couple hundred kilometers off the node, keeping track of what went in and what came out 24/7. UEF Intelligence's failure to do that is just criminally stupid.
And the GTVA would be even more criminally stupid if the whole area around the jump node wasn't stuffed with AWACSs and sensors just to prevent that from happening. Don't be so quick to judge, young padawan.
TBH, I'm still not convinced the UEF plan to kill the Carthage would have ended the war, had it worked.
Oh believe me, it would have worked pretty well. The GTVA is already on the brink of civil war as we speak. There must be hundreds of agitators waiting for this kind of opportunity to ruin every and all credibility the Tevs might ever have if they manage to get a destroyer, one commanded by one of their best admiral to boot, reduced to scrap metal by a bunch of hippies with no war experience.
The fact that the whole population had been impatiently waiting nearly two decades for the Sol gate to complete only to be said "nope, gotta clean the house first" when it was completed, with all the chances that your relatives on the other side might be killed by a loose warhead any time, didn't help their case. The civilian Tevs are currently a huge time bomb that will remained armed and threatening for a while.
- Whatever happened to the Meridian btw? It was critically damaged. Did it withdraw downing Terran Destroyer contingent to 4? Or was it just chilling at Jupiter getting repaired? If it withdrew, was it ever replaced with something else?
Most likely retreated to Delta Serpentis at least for repairs. It is likely that, after that debacle, Severanti and his battlegroup get "reassigned" at the other side of the GTVA much like the remnants of the 14th battlegroup were, and get replaced by another battlegroup at some point.
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Severanti was removed from shipboard command. As for the Meridian, she's probably still in drydock or at the last stages of repair; whether she will make a reappearance remains to be seen.
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Hmm, I thought it had been rolled out of the system. At least it isn't listed in DE's briefing, which states the status of every other GTVA destroyer :
Atreus - Busy fighting the UEF admirals' offensive
Hood - Still being repaired
Imperieuse - Resupplying in Delta Serpentis
Carthage - Stuck near Saturn
Meridian - ?
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The Meridian and Admiral Severanti were immediately recalled back to DS following the attack.
While we were unable to destroy the Meridian, our strike succeeded in forcing the destroyer to withdraw. Intelligence tells us that the Meridian has pulled back to Delta Serpentis. Better yet, the General Assembly is so displeased with Admiral Severanti's blunder here that they've relieved him of command and placed Steele in control of the Sol theatre.
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If that is the case then who is holding Jupiter and the Sol-DS node?
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The rest of the fleet ?
The destroyers aren't the only presence the Tevs have in Sol. There's whole battlegroups with them. Also, the DS node has been heavily fortified since after First Neptune.
That, plus the fact that destroyers are probably in constant Jump Five state when they're not resupplying or in combat. You don't really need a destroyer to sit playing defense at all times, they get deployed where they're needed.
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Indeed. From what I've been able to gather, each of the Battlegroups assigned to the Sol theater (minus the 2nd, simply because it's not a regular fleet formation so much as it is a field testbed for new tech) have between six and ten corvettes assigned to them and a smaller but still substantial force of cruisers. That makes for between 18 and 30 corvettes in Sol, which is more than enough needed to defend key points even leaving aside static defenses is few assume that your average corvette can reasonably run off your average frigate without either being completely destroyed if they meet in a dark alley, and vice versa.
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Also take into account that all the stations and planets captured by the Tevs are probably used as fighter bases. Plus the base destroyer and diomedes fighter complement, the Tevs potentially have a substantial fighter cover to deploy.
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There is probably also a decent amount of Mjolnir cannons providing static anti-cap defense to important locations, like the node and Artemis Station.
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There is probably also a decent amount of Mjolnir cannons providing static anti-cap defense to important locations, like the node and Artemis Station.
Mjolnir is of limited application in Sol, even in FS2 they were very susceptible to fighter assault and in Sol with the addition of UEF capital cannons that exceed the range of the Mjolnir I think they would have only a minor impact on a well planned offensive. As a defense at the DS end of the Sol-DS node on the other hand they would be lethal because the UEF would be stripped of it's range advantage.
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Besides, any attempt at a close blockade of the Sol-DS node will simply get a Meson Bomb to the face.
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depends if the GTVA incorporated a "shutdown" system in the gate then meson would be a irrelevant
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Not really. It's more interesting for the GTVA to turn a UEF blockade fleet into scrap metal than it is to shut the node they spent 18 years to try and stabilize.
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depends if the GTVA incorporated a "shutdown" system in the gate then meson would be a irrelevant
At the Sol end? You can just drop rocks (Meson Bombs) down the node at them and set them to blow when they arrive in Sol, then lol off into the sunset. It'll keep them from interdicting fightercraft transit at the least.
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If the GTVA got kicked out of Sol by the UEF, would there be the political will for a new invasion? if not then what would be the gain of sending a (presumably expensive) meson ship through?
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What gain ? How about
to turn a UEF blockade fleet into scrap metal
You first send an expendable probe to relay the number and position of ships at the Sol side, and if there's enough ships to be worth a meson bomb, you send it.
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If the GTVA got kicked out of Sol by the UEF, would there be the political will for a new invasion? if not then what would be the gain of sending a (presumably expensive) meson ship through?
Assumes the only reason to blockade the node is after you kick the GTVA out. It's not. There are lots of reasons you might want to cut off communications and reinforcements, but Magic Meson Bomb Bombardment makes it a bad idea to try.
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It's been discussed long and large before anyway. The UEF can try to blockade a node, using mass Narayana and fighters/bombers to kill targets as they come out of the node, and before they can jump away anywhere in Sol. Since Naras are out of the Meson bomb detonation range and a bunch of fighters aren't worth a Meson bomb (and have enough subspace agility to jump the f*ck out before it detonates anyway), it's the only way to get enough firepower on incoming warships while staying safe from meson bombs.
Eventually, however, the GTVA can turn things around by slipping by enough fighters to mount a Trebuchet strike on the Narayana's guns, forcing the UEF to either commit closer range warships and risk a meson bomb strike, or let Tev warships freely run the blockade. The UEF cannot mount a lasting blockade against the Tevs.
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That's a pretty damn believable blockade scenario. If the UEF ever get to that point, they can only try and hold out until civil unrest hits critical in Tev space. Somehow 'getting to that point' sounds unlikely however :P
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on the situations for a UEF blockade, the only way the UEF could make a blocade stick for more than a few hours is if the GTVA fleet in Sol is rendered unable to respond, which given that the node is priority number one, lose that and the invasion is over, and as discussed there is the Atreus and its battle group, though the Hood is in repair I assume a good chunk of it's battle group is in system somewhere, the Imperieuse is in system and fairly fresh, Its BG depends on if it was sent through the node to make the UEF believe she had withdrawn but could be in system. so that's 2 destroyers and 2 possibly 3 battle groups able to respond to a UEF blockade of the node. I dont fancy the UEF's chances of holding it as the GTVA will be engaging the UEF on their own terms with the UEF restricted in how they can respond and we know what happens when the GTVA can jump in close to a UEF ship. All this means that only by regaining control of the system do they stand a chance of blockading the node.
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Obviously, any UEF blockade scenario has no hope of being valid if the rest of the system isn't secured enough, that the UEF can just have Narayanas sitting at the node, defended by a few cruisers and Karunas, and be assured they won't be kicked out of their spot by forces from inside Sol.
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At which point the GTVA Invasion has failed, which then brings me back to my original point
If the GTVA got kicked out of Sol by the UEF, would there be the political will for a new invasion? if not then what would be the gain of sending a (presumably expensive) meson ship through?
The UEF warships will probably be at or beyond 3000 meters from the node to minimize return fire, in which case what is the point of sending a Meson ship to blast the blockade if all you are reasonably get is a few fighter/bombers?
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You just keep it ready in case the occasion presents itself.
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Before any blockade can reasonably happen, all GTVA forces in Sol must also be destroyed or forced to withdraw.
Seeing as that's pretty much impossible to do without losing the majority of the rest of the combined UEF fleets, that's not a likely outcome. The losses would mostly rack up because in order to force all GTVA forces out of Sol, you'd have to attack all of them and defeat them simultaneously, or the damaged ships will simply be replaced in a few days.
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The UEF warships will probably be at or beyond 3000 meters from the node to minimize return fire, in which case what is the point of sending a Meson ship to blast the blockade if all you are reasonably get is a few fighter/bombers?
Clearing the fighters is the first step to clearing the node. Whether the comparative expenses are justified misses the point that if you have only one way back in you're going to use it, and this is the first step.
The GTVA probably already has this capability, it'd be of use against the Shivans in multiple roles. (It's not just good at breaking up blockades, but would make effective way to cover a retreat through a node or just ruin the day of ship concentrations.) The bombs could easily just be sitting there, ready to go, for any old target.
Even just demonstrating the capability might be worth it. The UEF can't be sure how willing the GTVA will be to pull the trigger. It would put a serious damper on any plans to operate near the node even temporarily, like interdicting supply runs.
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Errm, you don't want to just have your bomb sitting at the enemy node doing nothing. The UEF could just bring a few Jump Five fighters and blast it, gaining you nothing.
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I suppose the information we are missing is how long it takes the gate to establish the node and if capable how long it takes to collapse the node using it.
If both are short, an hour or two then for example then precautionary shut down would probably be the best bet unless you believe GTVA survivors could slip though.
If the shut down is longer than transit time or not possible but the gate wont take long to reestablish the link then move up the meson and be ready, perhaps shut down the gate structure and move it to keep it safe.
This is of course academic for a while if the UEF warships are limited to intra system because then you would be looking at days or months of refit if possible before a counter strike could be mounted.
Before any blockade can reasonably happen, all GTVA forces in Sol must also be destroyed or forced to withdraw.
Seeing as that's pretty much impossible to do without losing the majority of the rest of the combined UEF fleets, that's not a likely outcome. The losses would mostly rack up because in order to force all GTVA forces out of Sol, you'd have to attack all of them and defeat them simultaneously, or the damaged ships will simply be replaced in a few days.
if the UEF capture or destroy the remaining logistics ships then they could feasibly weaken the GTVA logistics capability enough to force withdrawl out of system as remember they are not just big freighters but also repair workshops.
The UEF warships will probably be at or beyond 3000 meters from the node to minimize return fire, in which case what is the point of sending a Meson ship to blast the blockade if all you are reasonably get is a few fighter/bombers?
Clearing the fighters is the first step to clearing the node. Whether the comparative expenses are justified misses the point that if you have only one way back in you're going to use it, and this is the first step.
The GTVA probably already has this capability, it'd be of use against the Shivans in multiple roles. (It's not just good at breaking up blockades, but would make effective way to cover a retreat through a node or just ruin the day of ship concentrations.) The bombs could easily just be sitting there, ready to go, for any old target.
Even just demonstrating the capability might be worth it. The UEF can't be sure how willing the GTVA will be to pull the trigger. It would put a serious damper on any plans to operate near the node even temporarily, like interdicting supply runs.
Personally I find that a bit thin, while the demonstration of a Meson warhead would rattle the UEF ships the fact that it reinforces the Do-or-Die situation means they woul dhave no choice but to fortify the node and make absolutely sure such devices do not make it into the system
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Errm, you don't want to just have your bomb sitting at the enemy node doing nothing. The UEF could just bring a few Jump Five fighters and blast it, gaining you nothing.
I mean at the DS end. Although the GTVA might actually have Meson bombs sitting around Sol in case they ever get a location on one of the UEF's destroyers or a large group of warships. It's cheaper than the sort of force needed to do equivalent damage.
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if the UEF capture or destroy the remaining logistics ships then they could feasibly weaken the GTVA logistics capability enough to force withdrawl out of system as remember they are not just big freighters but also repair workshops.
This doesn't force all forces out of the system, and in all likelihood the chances of them capturing or destroying a logitistics ship after Steele doesn't need to give them one to spring a trap is essentially nil. You can bet that Logistics ships will convoy with significantly heavier escorts than a cruiser or two, or even stay in secret or very well defended locations when they're not actively in use, ala the Imperiuese.
In short: easier said than done. Probably harder done than even engaging all other GTVA assets in theater.
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and in all likelihood the chances of them capturing or destroying a logitistics ship after Steele doesn't need to give them one to spring a trap
Been discussed before too. The UEF finding/attacking/capturing a logistic ship wasn't part of Steele's plan, he just had contingencies for such a case and wonderfully managed to turn what should have been a major defeat into an occasion to get the neutral Zods to work for him. If he planned it all along, he wouldn't have arrested rear-admiral Carey for a treason that wouldn't have happened.
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if the UEF capture or destroy the remaining logistics ships then they could feasibly weaken the GTVA logistics capability enough to force withdrawl out of system as remember they are not just big freighters but also repair workshops.
The UEF wouldn't dare attack a Vasudan logistics ship, lest they provoke them into providing actual military support to the invasion, which would spell doom even faster. And the chances of getting another source to leak jump schedules before the war ends are slim to none.
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Given how quickly the Vasudan admiral jumped on believing the nearly-obvious lies Steele spoon-fed him, it looks like he's just waiting for a good reason to actively engage hostilities with the Feds.
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given that there was 2 Terran vessels in system at the start means that one is fair game, also the fact that Vassudan ships are increasingly taking part was part of the reason I said capture, the other being the fact that they are non combatants thus under UEF RoE forcing surrender or capture is the preferred scenario.
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and in all likelihood the chances of them capturing or destroying a logitistics ship after Steele doesn't need to give them one to spring a trap
Been discussed before too. The UEF finding/attacking/capturing a logistic ship wasn't part of Steele's plan, he just had contingencies for such a case and wonderfully managed to turn what should have been a major defeat into an occasion to get the neutral Zods to work for him. If he planned it all along, he wouldn't have arrested rear-admiral Carey for a treason that wouldn't have happened.
And why wouldn't he? Now Carey is completely off the radar. For all intents and purposes she doesn't exist anymore. How much mileage can you get out of an Admiral that no one expects to show up again? A lot. How much would the UEF trust information that comes from her? A lot (it got them a logistics ship, after all). How much suspicion would it have raised if she wasn't arrested for it? A lot.
None of which constitutes proof, I'll grant, but there's also no proof that Steele didn't plan it. I wouldn't put it past him. Dangle one juicy target to get them overconfident. Dangle another to spring the trap itself.
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headdie: Even then, it took 18 months for the UEF to get a decent opportunity to attack one. It seems very, very unlikely they'll get another such opportunity in the few months they've got left. Chances are Steele also increased security measures to avoid losing the other one.
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And why wouldn't he? Now Carey is completely off the radar. For all intents and purposes she doesn't exist anymore. How much mileage can you get out of an Admiral that no one expects to show up again? A lot. How much would the UEF trust information that comes from her? A lot (it got them a logistics ship, after all). How much suspicion would it have raised if she wasn't arrested for it? A lot.
None of which constitutes proof, I'll grant, but there's also no proof that Steele didn't plan it. I wouldn't put it past him. Dangle one juicy target to get them overconfident. Dangle another to spring the trap itself.
So, you're suggesting that the UEF knew Carey was the leak, that they knew she got arrested for leaking the Agincourt's jump schedules. And that they believed Carey managed to leak more stuff about the Carthage. From jail.
Allow me to doubt this.
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I'm suggesting that someone in the UEF knows that Carey was the leak. You quite simply do not make that kind of strategic movement without knowing that your source is reliable, and high enough up to guarantee the intelligence is correct.
I'm suggesting that news does get through the gate sometimes, and that whoever the someone in the UEF who knew it was Carey would also recognize her removal.
I'm suggesting that the intelligence leak was staged by Steele to provide the UEF with a reliable source of intelligence that he could manipulate.
I'm suggesting that Steele knew Carey would do something like that, or that he may have even ordered her to be the leak to feed the UEF the information he wanted to feed them (the low hanging fruit of the logistics vessel).
Following that line of thought, I'm suggesting that the arrest and removal was staged by Steele to make her information appear as genuine as it was possible to be. Alternate suggestion: the arrest was not staged, but Steele sprung Carey from wherever she was headed. We know he's prepared to go under the table to get things done.
Assuming the arrest was staged, Steele now has an asset that no one knows he has, that the UEF trusts, and that owes (or at least thinks she owes) him for keeping her from being actually executed for treason.
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headdie: Even then, it took 18 months for the UEF to get a decent opportunity to attack one. It seems very, very unlikely they'll get another such opportunity in the few months they've got left. Chances are Steele also increased security measures to avoid losing the other one.
And yet what options do the UEF have? The 1st fleet is committed to protecting Earth and the secret project, and while the 2nd and 3rd fleets are willing to go on the offensive they dont have the ships to do so in a meaningful way and they doubt the secret project has the capability to win the war and to my understanding written off any useful help from Earth, 1st fleet or the elders. They cant attack any sizable GTVA warship in a meaningful manner, attacking fixed GTVA positions is highly risky so what can they do when sitting on the defensive will eventually lead to defeat?
on the other hand there was a leak from a senior source and while that leak has been plugged it brings up 2 likely scenarios for the UEF to consider.
1. Steele set up a very risky misinformation project, very possible and would fit Steele's profile but gives the UEF little to work with.
2. Dissent is setting into the Tev ranks, this on the other hand would give the UEF a number of avenues to develop intelligence on the GTVA movements as well as opens up weaknesses to propaganda efforts.
While scenario 1 is very likely, scenario 2 can be perused with little risk until physical operations start to be mounted based on that info. but then seeing as doing nothing is certain defeat in the eyes of the 2nd and 3rd what have they got to loose?
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headdie: I didn't say it isn't something they'd want to do, only that I don't think they'll be able to. With their military solutions more or less gone, their best bet is probably to just follow the First Fleet's lead and put their faith in whatever the project is supposed to be.
I think the biggest risk to the Tev offensive is the Vasudans finding out they've been played. The big inconsistency in the story is how there were Gef forces with a mission to disable the Shepseskaf in preparation for the arrival of a Fed capture team, when the Feds have absolutely no way to know the Vasudans would send a destroyer in the first place. Maybe it could be explained away, but still.
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Gef forces were there to disable a Vasudan ship. They probably didn't know it was a destroyer either, or they'd have sent more than just Scimitars in the initial strike.
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That's a lot of compounded if-s concerning Admiral Carey. Whatever the case, it became pretty obvious that she's been compromised when the Imperieuse jumped in at the very end. Nobody would trust information coming from that source, especially knowing Steele.
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I'm suggesting that someone in the UEF knows that Carey was the leak. You quite simply do not make that kind of strategic movement without knowing that your source is reliable, and high enough up to guarantee the intelligence is correct.
I'm suggesting that news does get through the gate sometimes, and that whoever the someone in the UEF who knew it was Carey would also recognize her removal.
I'm suggesting that the intelligence leak was staged by Steele to provide the UEF with a reliable source of intelligence that he could manipulate.
I'm suggesting that Steele knew Carey would do something like that, or that he may have even ordered her to be the leak to feed the UEF the information he wanted to feed them (the low hanging fruit of the logistics vessel).
Following that line of thought, I'm suggesting that the arrest and removal was staged by Steele to make her information appear as genuine as it was possible to be. Alternate suggestion: the arrest was not staged, but Steele sprung Carey from wherever she was headed. We know he's prepared to go under the table to get things done.
Assuming the arrest was staged, Steele now has an asset that no one knows he has, that the UEF trusts, and that owes (or at least thinks she owes) him for keeping her from being actually executed for treason.
So you're maintaining that the UEF trusted the intel about the Carthage, knowing that it was coming from someone they thought was in jail, and was officially a traitor to the GTVA and hence lost all usefulness as a mole. And you see no flaw in that reasoning ?
Because of that, it's simply impossible that the Fed intelligence knew who sent that intel, or DE would never had happened. Which leads to the fact that, since we know Steele is able to build credible enough fake info to deceive the Fed intelligence (or else he wouldn't have been able to take Carey's place after she got arrested), there would be absolutely no reason for Carey to get involved at all in the first intel leak about the Agincourt, if it had been part of Steele's plan. Yet she was the source of that leak. QED.
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I'm talking about the logistics ship, not the Carthage. The only flaw in that reasoning is that it's not what I'm talking about. :P The intelligence source who outed the Carthage is obviously not Carey, because 1) we know that Carey outed the logistics ship and 2) Carey was no longer in place by the time the Carthage intelligence. Obviously, the two sources cannot be the same person, so your opposing point does not only not apply, it's non-sensical.
During WiH, as a flag officer during the events of Age of Aquarius, Carey was removed from any real activity in the Sol theater. She is effectively sidelined, taken out of the strategic picture, useless to both sides, etc. If Steele constructed the entire thing, she is now back in play, and no one knows it. If Steele trusts her capabilities (or her predictability), that right there is a very good reason to involve her. He now has a flag officer, blooded against Shivans in a command capacity, and she either owes him, thinks she owes him, or is working with him anyway. A flag officer that the UEF trusts to support them.
And you don't see any advantage to that?
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I'm talking about the logistics ship, not the Carthage. The only flaw in that reasoning is that it's not what I'm talking about. :P The intelligence source who outed the Carthage is obviously not Carey, because 1) we know that Carey outed the logistics ship and 2) Carey was no longer in place by the time the Carthage intelligence. Obviously, the two sources cannot be the same person, so your opposing point does not only not apply, it's non-sensical.
During WiH, as a flag officer during the events of Age of Aquarius, Carey was removed from any real activity in the Sol theater. She is effectively sidelined, taken out of the strategic picture, useless to both sides, etc. If Steele constructed the entire thing, she is now back in play, and no one knows it. If Steele trusts her capabilities (or her predictability), that right there is a very good reason to involve her. He now has a flag officer, blooded against Shivans in a command capacity, and she either owes him, thinks she owes him, or is working with him anyway. A flag officer that the UEF trusts to support them.
And you don't see any advantage to that?
Judging from the Conversations from War in Heaven thread, I'd seriously doubt she'd go against the UEF by her own will, or by Steele forcing/tricking/ordering her. If she did, then only to hurt the GTVA from the inside. Maybe Steele can try to predict/control her indirectly to serve his purpose, but Carey isn't stupid and such a plan would have a huge risk of backfiring.
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And isn't that how Steele plays? High risk, high reward. If the Imperieuse had been five minutes later, the Carthage would be a scrap heap and the 2nd Battlegroup would no longer exist in any form. Up to thirty thousand dead GTVA citizens (depending on how the player flies), and the complete destruction of a destroyer and her escorts.
Instead, Steele crushed the backbone of the last offensively significant UEF fleet, outright destroyed three of the best frigates in the UEF, rendered the last effectively scrap (although granted as a result of escaping), and crushed whatever morale the fleet had left.
High risk, high reward.
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The Imperieuse was on time not because of luck, but because that's the way Steele wanted it to be. If you look at his plans, there really isn't that high of a risk involved (I even think this was said in the commentary). It was all planned out and under control. Of course plans have an inherent risk in them, and Steele is more aggressive in this regard, but comparing the risk of, say a random engine failure to giving command authority to someone who's openly your enemy is just not right. It's like comparing chess to russian roulette, and Steele is a lot more chess kinda guy.
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I didn't mention luck because I know it was not luck that dictated the Imperieuse's arrival, just like I didn't say that by having an asset available for use he'd be giving her a fleet command or command authority.
High risk doesn't imply high luck, it implies high cost of failure. If the Delenda Est trap had failed, the cost of failure would have been gigantic, just as high reward doesn't imply lack of luck, it implies high return on investment.
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You missed my point, which was using Carey had an incomparably higher inherent risk than Steele's plans during the campaign. Sure, the stakes were high in Delenda Est, but high stakes =/= high risk. Risk comes from uncertainty, all of which was probably also covered by contingencies. I've never said high risk implies high luck either, that's just flat-out stupid.
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Given how quickly the Vasudan admiral jumped on believing the nearly-obvious lies Steele spoon-fed him, it looks like he's just waiting for a good reason to actively engage hostilities with the Feds.
Do you mean the Vasudan admiral is just trigger happy in general and wants to fight something, or feels the Vasudans should be fighting with their GTVA Terran 'brothers and sisters in arms'?
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I found that strange, the Vasudans were supposed to be ideologically a lot closer to the UEF than to the GTVA, and Khonsu was quite specific about not entering this war because that would slow their preparations for the upcoming darkness.
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I found that strange, the Vasudans were supposed to be ideologically a lot closer to the UEF than to the GTVA, and Khonsu was quite specific about not entering this war because that would slow their preparations for the upcoming darkness.
.... Maybe theres a sect of Vasudans that resent the control the emperor wrested from the Parliament at the dissolution of the PVE?
Vasudan Admiral in on it working with Steele?
on the topic of carey.
The briefing about the Carthage says "this is the same source that gave us the Agincourt, and He or She has come through for us again". Carey is either the source for both or for neither.
A) Maybe the psychological profile of lopez and operational posture of the Carthage in the coming weeks were provided in the original intel dump and Netreba and Calder chose to focus on the Agincourt first? They didn't necessarily have to share their intel with the wargods.. the best way to keep a secret is to keep it's audience small. Also the wargods needed a big op to prove they had the balls to take down the Carthage.
OR Maybe they didn't choose to wait, but this operational posture change was planned weeks in advance, and this was when it began, again, with them coming aware in the original intel dump.
B ) I haven't read the conversation bits in awhile, but WHEN was Carey arrested? i remember the entry referenced "the ****ing jump schedules" but maybe they only discovered her treason AFTER the carthage, and that discovery led them to the Agincourt discovery? Spitballing here, but it would mean Carey was still an intelligence asset to the UEF at carthage time.
I still think Steele had it planned. Carey may not be a WILLING double agent, but Steele may have played her like a fiddle.
I, as a Tev lover, prefer to think she IS a double agent because she knows the Tevs are the best, and the whole arrest was staged, but I think the first scenario is more likely haha.
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Do you mean the Vasudan admiral is just trigger happy in general and wants to fight something, or feels the Vasudans should be fighting with their GTVA Terran 'brothers and sisters in arms'?
What I mean is that it's unlikely that every single Vasudan shares 100% the opinions of the Emperor. I wouldn't be surprised if, especially among the military, many Vasudans believe that the war should be ended sooner rather than later, because of how vulnerable they are against a potential Third Shivan Incursion as long as the war is raging.
The Zod admiral obviously received orders to remain neutral in the conflict and only defend the logistic operations, without offensively supporting the war effort. It is entirely possible that he disagrees with those orders but, as a good military officer, carries them out anyway. That doesn't mean that he won't take every opportunity to hurt the Feds wherever it doesn't directly contradict with his orders.
I'm talking about the logistics ship, not the Carthage. The only flaw in that reasoning is that it's not what I'm talking about. :P The intelligence source who outed the Carthage is obviously not Carey, because 1) we know that Carey outed the logistics ship and 2) Carey was no longer in place by the time the Carthage intelligence. Obviously, the two sources cannot be the same person, so your opposing point does not only not apply, it's non-sensical.
But Steele proved he was perfectly able to feed misinformation to the UEF Intelligence without Carey, since he feed em the intel on the Carthage after she got arrested. So, if the Agincourt was part of his plan, he'd never have needed Carey in the first place, he'd just have sent the misinformation directly.
During WiH, as a flag officer during the events of Age of Aquarius, Carey was removed from any real activity in the Sol theater. She is effectively sidelined, taken out of the strategic picture, useless to both sides, etc. If Steele constructed the entire thing, she is now back in play, and no one knows it. If Steele trusts her capabilities (or her predictability), that right there is a very good reason to involve her. He now has a flag officer, blooded against Shivans in a command capacity, and she either owes him, thinks she owes him, or is working with him anyway. A flag officer that the UEF trusts to support them.
And you don't see any advantage to that?
So, noone knows she's back in business. Yet the UEF trusts her, because of the Agincourt. So, they know she's back in business. Your argument contradicts itself.
If the UEF knew the Agincourt source was Carey, they'd never have trusted the Carthage intel after she got arrested. Which means the UEF never knew it was Carey. Which means Steele never needed Carey in the first place if it was all part of his plan, he's perfectly able to fake the intel himself.
Which is obviously not the case, since we know Carey is the source of the Agincourt intel. Hence the Agincourt wasn't part of his plan. QED.
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You keep making leaps of logic that are not there. The UEF trusts information from Carey. That does not require them to know of her whereabouts or activites at any given moment. They don't necessarily need to know she's still a piece on the board. My argument contradicts nothing.
We still don't know if Carey was arrested before or after she leaked the Carthage's positions. Here, I'll walk through it point by point.
1a) We are absolutely certain that Carey was the source of the Agincourt intelligence leak.
1b) We are absolutely certain that the intelligence leaks for both the Agincourt and Carthage were the same source. (thanks for that quote, Drogoth, it had slipped my mind)
2) This means that Carey must have been both leaks; there is not another posibility, because the briefing uses a singular third person pronoun; there is no they.
3a) We are absolutely certain that Steele formulated a plan to remove the Wargods from meaningful consideration in Sol.
3b) We are absolutely certain that the Carthage attack was part of Steele's plan.
3c) The capture of the Agincourt instilled in the Wargods a sense of confidence and invincibility, which was vital to Steele's plan to get them to attack a significant target (of his choosing).
4) This means that both information links worked toward the proper execution of Steele's plan.
4a) The reasonable assumption is that both leaks were deliberate.
5a) Carey committed treason against the GTVA by leaking intelligence to the UEF (points 1a, 1b and 2).
5b) The punishment for treason before a trial in the GTVA is to be stripped of rank and citizenship in the GTVA, and await summary court martial and/or board of inquiry(if I remember my terms right).
5c) The punishment for a guilty verdict on the charge of treason against the GTVA is highly likely to be execution. If not that, rotting in a correctional facility for the rest of one's natural life.
6) Carey is no longer a player in the Sol theater.
7a) Because of 2, 4, and 4a, it is likely that Carey either deliberately acted against the UEF, or was manipulated into acting against the UEF by some other entity, most likely Steele.
7b) Because of 1b), in which both intelligence leaks were accurate (outcomes aside), the UEF trusts intelligence from this source, which, because of point 2, must be Carey.
7c) Carey's arrest indicates that, whatever the other outcomes, the intelligence leaks were legitimate and led to damage to the GTVA.
8) The UEF will likely listen to any further intelligence from Carey.
9a) Because of 6, Carey has been removed from her post and any post that could influence the Sol theater.
9b) Steele knows this.
9c) The UEF knows this.
9d) Steele, just as any GTVA service member, knows the punishment for treason.
9e) Steele has been known to conduct under-the-table operations to secure an outcome favorable to him.
9f) Rescuing Carey from execution and/or a correctional facility puts Carey in Steele's debts.
9g) Carey is a person of strong morals and integrity (point 5a).
9h) Steele does not ignore assets that could give him an advantage.
9i) Carey is either predictable or under orders to betray the GTVA (points 4 and 4a)
10) Saving Carey, either legally or illegally, gives Steele another piece on the board, and one he already knows how to use, and further one that is in his debt, personally.
11a) Steele strives to use all tools in his arsenal to their greatest effectiveness.
11b) Per point 10, Carey is a tool in Steele's arsenal.
11c) Per point 8, the UEF will likely listen to any further intelligence from Carey.
12) Steele can use Carey to feed the UEF information that will improve his effectiveness.
QED.
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One little thing here is that you're assuming that the UEF knows that the source for this Intel was Carey. This may not necessarily be true; Given the general assumption of people in BP not being completely stupid, the assumption that Carey used a host of proxys and cutouts to deliver info to the UEF (if only by ordering information to be placed in places where the UEF was known to have access to) is also rather logical.
It should also be assumed that the Carthage stuff was leaked deliberately in order to bring out the desired outcome; whether this information was placed into the conduit on Steele's orders, or let through as part of a GTVA Intel sting op is immaterial, really. The end result in both cases is that Admiral Carey has been arrested pending court martial for treason against the GTVA; she is very definitely behind very real bars at this point.
Whether Steele has enough clout (or, for that matter, interest) to rehabilitate her remains to be seen.
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That reminds me: for the purposes of that exercise, I'm assuming Steele is willing to use means both legitmate and/or illegitimate to acquire Carey. Naturally, such a logical exercise isn't proof of anything, and Steele could easily just leave her to rot.
Using a squadron of "destroyed" Pegasus fighters to ambush her prison convoy and "liberate" her and perhaps a few dozen/hundred other criminals to make it look like the strike wasn't targeted specifically at her would be an interesting way to handle it. We know Steele has those assets available, after all, and if they're official listed as destroyed, no one is likely to come looking for Steele's head.
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1a) We are absolutely certain that Carey was the source of the Agincourt intelligence leak.
1b) We are absolutely certain that the intelligence leaks for both the Agincourt and Carthage were the same source. (thanks for that quote, Drogoth, it had slipped my mind)
2) This means that Carey must have been both leaks; there is not another posibility, because the briefing uses a singular third person pronoun; there is no they.
There's already a major issue at that point : the UEF thinks both sources are the same. However, Carey is in jail at that point. And the UEF doesn't know Carey is the source to begin with (or DE wouldn't have happened, since Carey lost all credibility as a source when she got jailed). Steele leaked the intel for the Carthage, making it look like it was from the same source. And the UEF Intelligence bought it.
Since we know that Carey was the source for the first leak, and that Carey was in jail by the time of the second leak, then both leaks can't come from the same source. UEF intelligence was just tricked into thinking it was.
Which brings us back to square 1 : since Steele is able to fake credible enough misinformation to the UEF, if the Agincourt was part of his plan, he wouldn't have needed to involve Carey at all for the Agincourt leak. Which leads us, again, to the conclusion that, since Carey is the source of the Agincourt leak, the Agincourt wasn't part of Steele's plan.
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From an everything is as it seems perspective.
Why is everyone assuming Carey's imprisonment for treason in some way renders information supplied to the UEF untrustworthy from their perspective?
If anything the arrest for treason reinforces the idea the Carey has turned against the GTVA and even if the arrest is made before Carey can leak the info is it too much of a push for a officer loyal to the admiral to forward the information? Also there is no indication that the GTVA knew exactly what had been leaked only that there was one.
In addition we know that Steele is paranoid in his contingency planning so knowing there was a leak in his command will in all likely hood have quietly put the Imperieuse on alert to rescue any significant assets that would be likely targets for the Wargods, especially after the Agincourt fiasco.
Thus the trap seen in DE is in place without needing to know the exact Wargod Target before they attack.
From a Steele planed it all perspective.
Why is everyone assuming Carey's imprisonment for treason in some way renders information supplied to the UEF untrustworthy from their perspective?
If anything the arrest for treason reinforces the idea the Carey has turned against the GTVA and even if the arrest is made before Carey can leak the info is it too much of a push for a officer loyal to the admiral to forward the information?
There are many ways Steele can fabricate the whole scenario, even the loss of the Agincourt could be part of a plan to draw out aggressive elements of the UEF navy such as the Wargods. Steele would have direct access to knowledge of every ship in system and transiting to and from because of needing to plan his strategy as theater commander. Now here is the IF on it was all a ploy if the Vasudan logistics ship was on the arrival schedule before the Agincourt mission (especially if the Agincourt was due to rotate back to DS) then it would not be a massive loss as a replacement was going to arrive soon. Now from the forces committed under this scenario I would suggest that Steele was expecting to retain the Agincourt, but then high risk is how Steele plays. The UEF success of the mission serves 2 purposes, 1 it establishes the intel "source", secondly it boosts the confidence of the UEF enough to commit to DE. when DE comes around, I think that Steele was planning for the Wargods to commit in full sooner so that the losses of the Carthage group would be less. While DE goes less well than anticipated it serves its purpose and the only real UEF Hunter Killer group is ripped apart which will reduce the risk of Steele heavily committing his forces, and UEF trust in turned GTVA officers for intel is damaged.
I suspect the real situation falls somewhere between the two scenarios
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We also don't know that the UEF is aware that Carey has been arrested. The GTVA should have pretty tight control on what information gets to Sol, even assuming that Carey's arrest was a public affair (which there's a decent chance it wasn't).
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1a) We are absolutely certain that Carey was the source of the Agincourt intelligence leak.
1b) We are absolutely certain that the intelligence leaks for both the Agincourt and Carthage were the same source. (thanks for that quote, Drogoth, it had slipped my mind)
2) This means that Carey must have been both leaks; there is not another posibility, because the briefing uses a singular third person pronoun; there is no they.
There's already a major issue at that point : the UEF thinks both sources are the same. However, Carey is in jail at that point. And the UEF doesn't know Carey is the source to begin with (or DE wouldn't have happened, since Carey lost all credibility as a source when she got jailed).
Two things: 1) we have no other confirmation or refutation from any other canon source than the briefing which mentions a singular third person pronoun as their source. It is one person. The first time was Carey, therefore the second time must be Carey. Prove it wrong. Until then, I'm going to assume it's the same person because that's what all indications point to.
2) Wut? Carey lost credibility as a source when she got jailed? How did you arrive at that conclusion? If the leaks hadn't been credible, she wouldn't have been jailed. If the leaks didn't hurt the GTVA, she wouldn't have been jailed. She was jailed. Therefore, the leaks were both credible and hurt the GTVA. Why would her credibility change based on a confirmation of the information provided?
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If anything the arrest for treason reinforces the idea the Carey has turned against the GTVA and even if the arrest is made before Carey can leak the info is it too much of a push for a officer loyal to the admiral to forward the information?
Yes it is. In the case of treason and classified intelligence leak, you can be sure that, as soon as the mole is found and arrested, everyone remotely in contact with the mole will be under heavy surveillance by the GTVI.
Also there is no indication that the GTVA knew exactly what had been leaked only that there was one.
Yes there is. Right here.
"Abrogated? 'Abrogated'? You gave them the ****ing jump schedules, you traitorous piece of ****. There were ten thousand people in that - "
Two things: 1) we have no other confirmation or refutation from any other canon source than the briefing which mentions a singular third person pronoun as their source. It is one person. The first time was Carey, therefore the second time must be Carey. Prove it wrong. Until then, I'm going to assume it's the same person because that's what all indications point to.
That briefing is told from the perspective of the UEF. They believe the source is the same. If everything said in those briefings was true, the Imperieuse would have been in DS during DE. But we both know that not the case. The UEF was mistaken about the Imperieuse just as they were mistaken about both leaks coming from the same source, since Carey was in jail.
2) Wut? Carey lost credibility as a source when she got jailed? How did you arrive at that conclusion? If the leaks hadn't been credible, she wouldn't have been jailed. If the leaks didn't hurt the GTVA, she wouldn't have been jailed. She was jailed. Therefore, the leaks were both credible and hurt the GTVA. Why would her credibility change based on a confirmation of the information provided?
When I said "Carey lost credibility as a source", I meant "The UEF can't trust whatever is coming from that source anymore if they know it was Carey and she is in jail". If she got jailed for treason, you can be sure the GTVI is all over the case. In Intelligence jargon, the source is now "compromised".
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Two things: 1) we have no other confirmation or refutation from any other canon source than the briefing which mentions a singular third person pronoun as their source. It is one person. The first time was Carey, therefore the second time must be Carey. Prove it wrong. Until then, I'm going to assume it's the same person because that's what all indications point to.
That briefing is told from the perspective of the UEF. They believe the source is the same. If everything said in those briefings was true, the Imperieuse would have been in DS during DE. But we both know that not the case. The UEF was mistaken about the Imperieuse just as they were mistaken about both leaks coming from the same source, since Carey was in jail.
In the absence of a refutation that actually carries evidence behind it (the Imperieuse showed up at Delenda Est, that's clear evidence saying that the single point of the briefing was wrong; nothing is ever brought up to signify that the intelligence source changes or was not who they thought it was), I fail to see how you can declare that the UEF was mistaken without any real evidence to the support that claim. The briefing very specifically mentions one person. Find some actual evidence to refute that.
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As i said at the end of my post, The truth is probably in between the two scenarios. Also I was not aware of that thread.
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In the absence of a refutation that actually carries evidence behind it (the Imperieuse showed up at Delenda Est, that's clear evidence saying that the single point of the briefing was wrong; nothing is ever brought up to signify that the intelligence source changes or was not who they thought it was), I fail to see how you can declare that the UEF was mistaken without any real evidence to the support that claim. The briefing very specifically mentions one person. Find some actual evidence to refute that.
I already have. Carey being in jail, as confirmed by E a few posts above.
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I already have. Carey being in jail, as confirmed by E a few posts above.
Assumptions necessary for this to count.
The UEF knows that Carey is jail at the time they were operating on this information.
The GTVA is able to instantly invalidate all the information that Carey had access to.
The second one in particular is painfully unlikely.
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As stated the UEF only believed the source was the same. It probably wouldn't have taken much for a GTVA intelligence team to fake the message as it was probably either a text file or a prerecorded message.
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As stated the UEF only believed the source was the same. It probably wouldn't have taken much for a GTVA intelligence team to fake the message as it was probably either a text file or a prerecorded message.
I was about to single this out but you beat me to it. Isn't it wholly possible that Steele (or someone acting under his orders) could've used the already existing path of cutouts or dead drops or random e-mail spam to pass along bad intel for the UEF to misinterpret and send their elite frigate/fighter hit team out to get massacred?
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It's not wholly possible. It's exactly what happened.
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I know, it just seemed like the idea was being ignored.
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Or
As I stated before, the Carthage intel didn't necessarily have to come RIGHT before Delenda Est. It could have been in the Agincourt leak, and an opportunity to use it didn't happen until DE.
Kind of neatly ties up the whole 'same source but is carey still credible stuff'
Imperiuse goes on alert once the Tevs become aware of the leak (sometime between Aristei and DE) and jumps in to bail out the carthage.
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I think its possible that the intel leak was legit, and steele was secretly keeping the Imperieusse (however you spell it) in reserve for some other big op. Carey would have thought the Imperieusse was in delta serpentis like just about everyone else, and Steele had something else in mind when he put the Imperieuse in reserve in secret.
The Carthage was about to be reduced to slag so he was forced to deploy the Imperieusse to come to the rescue. He decided to hold off on deploying until the last second to bag as many enemy warships as possible because he is a magnificent bastard type character.
Myself I felt like the Imperieusse was overkill for the situation and that he had bigger things in mind for it considering how quickly and thoroughly it was able to obliterate the 'screening' kamikaze team. Dont you think if he could have he would have just sent some of his more advanced corvettes into DE and instead sent the imperieusse to kill a solaris or something?
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Thing is, as I understood it, every other GTVA asset was already sort of tied up elsewhere, making the Imperieuse pretty much the only ship capable of saving the Carthage's rear-end by itself, with the Hydra being the only other vessel available apart from the Imperieuse, which by itself wouldn't have been enough to stop the Wargods.
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Yes exactly, if he had planned things out fully he would have sent in corvettes and then let the Imperieusse fry some bigger fish.
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delenda est was more about a morale crush than a devastating military defeat. 3 or 4 karunas isn't all THAT big of a force. the GTVA wanted to be seen swatting aside the supposed elite badasses of the UEF like it was nothing. the imperieuse curbstomping them one after another is much more effective at that than a few corvettes that the frigates could at least engage, even if they are still destroyed.
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Think Carey may try to trick Steele somehow? She probably would help the UEF one more time even if she gets the firing squad as a result.
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Yes exactly, if he had planned things out fully he would have sent in corvettes and then let the Imperieusse fry some bigger fish.
The Imperieuse had been in hiding for weeks, already lacking of supplies and repairs since the blitz, by the time of DE. Although she looked fine in DE, I doubt she'd be in shape to face a Solaris, or at least I doubt the Tevs would have taken the risk. The Wargods were the target from the beginning, and they pose less of a threat to the Imperieuse, especially after battling the whole Carthage battlegroup.
Like Klaustrophobia said, Steele's objective was to crush the UEF morale, single-handely demonstrating in a single engagement his strategical superiority, making a mockery of UEF intelligence and destroying the single UEF unit that managed to actually deal some stings to the Tev war machine after 18 month of warfare. Solarises are also interesting preys, but none of em has the psychological impact the destruction of the Wargods had.
Think Carey may try to trick Steele somehow? She probably would help the UEF one more time even if she gets the firing squad as a result.
I hardly see how she would be able trick anyone from jail.
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The great variety of possibilities you guys described above shows just how much we don't know for sure.
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Yes exactly, if he had planned things out fully he would have sent in corvettes and then let the Imperieusse fry some bigger fish.
The Imperieuse had been in hiding for weeks, already lacking of supplies and repairs since the blitz, by the time of DE. Although she looked fine in DE, I doubt she'd be in shape to face a Solaris, or at least I doubt the Tevs would have taken the risk. The Wargods were the target from the beginning, and they pose less of a threat to the Imperieuse, especially after battling the whole Carthage battle group.
Like Klaustrophobia said, Steele's objective was to crush the UEF morale, single-handedly demonstrating in a single engagement his strategical superiority, making a mockery of UEF intelligence and destroying the single UEF unit that managed to actually deal some stings to the Tev war machine after 18 month of warfare. Solarises are also interesting preys, but none of em has the psychological impact the destruction of the Wargods had.
Its quite possible your right about the supply issues, I doubt the Imperieuse could have for instance launched a huge number of fighters and bombers. It however seemed to be quite capable of firing away with its beams all it wanted. Since the UEF destroyers were busy 'tying up' GTVA assets instead of overwhelming them, I think that they would already be on the edge of safety. Again seeing the performance of the Imperieuse in DE I think it could have done some serious damage to a Solaris and brought it down with the assistance of the other warship assets that were already engaged. It seemed to me that the loss of a destroyer would be a bigger morale blow than the loss of the Wargods.
I was previously looking at things from the perspective of the destructive power that would be lost in either case. From the perspective of morale, the wargods seemed to be construed as the UEF's last hope to win the war through military might and offensive operations. Crushing them like insects is pretty much the best way to counteract something liek that. I wouldn't go so far as to say that a UEF admiral could serve as a martyr due to the general UEF psyche, however I think that an admiral dying gloriously could serve some similar effect. It may have actually been detrimental to take out a destroyer while so much of the UEF military was still intact.
The great variety of possibilities you guys described above shows just how much we don't know for sure.
I'm inclined to agree, a lot of what we are saying is by necessity conjecture.
e: edited to hell and back to make my point slightly more clear
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i seriously doubt killing a solaris would have been a realistic option, even with the imperiuese suprise attack. afaik, they do not have a way to pin it down like the wargods were, and it could simply run. or even if it couldn't, the UEF would be sure to send plentiful backup and you risk losing YOUR destroyer.
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Also the suggestion that they should have prepped a bunch of corvettes the blitz the wargods and save the Imperiuse for a Solaris assumes they have enough Corvettes to maintain the tie down, AND crush the wargods. The Imp. may have been the only asset available to attack the wargods. If it had been involved in a major engagement what would have happened?
"This is Admiral Calder, the Imperiuse has engaged us. Clearly we have had a major intelligence failure. All units are to abort mission immediately"
The wargods bail, whatever solaris was under attack likely escapes. Failure from Steele's perspective. Maybe Calder wouldn't have called a retreat, but I know that if an enemy Destroyer that I thought was in another system turned up in battle I'd be a little bit squeamish about continuing with my operation lest the enemy pull something else I wasn't expecting out of their ass.
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Also the suggestion that they should have prepped a bunch of corvettes the blitz the wargods and save the Imperiuse for a Solaris assumes they have enough Corvettes to maintain the tie down, AND crush the wargods. The Imp. may have been the only asset available to attack the wargods. If it had been involved in a major engagement what would have happened?
"This is Admiral Calder, the Imperiuse has engaged us. Clearly we have had a major intelligence failure. All units are to abort mission immediately"
The wargods bail, whatever solaris was under attack likely escapes. Failure from Steele's perspective. Maybe Calder wouldn't have called a retreat, but I know that if an enemy Destroyer that I thought was in another system turned up in battle I'd be a little bit squeamish about continuing with my operation lest the enemy pull something else I wasn't expecting out of their ass.
I agree, this sounds most realistic.
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They could just jump the Imperieuse in shortly after the enemy comes in so that the UEF can't abort. Theres a reason the wargods didn't just casually jump out when they saw the Imperieuse. They had even been engaged for quite a while as they wrecked the Carthage BG, giving them plenty of time to recharge. I'm willing to bet a Solaris has even worse subspace maneuverability than a Karuna.
Also with regards to them not having enough corvettes to crush the wargods AND maintain the tie-down, I'm willing to bet the Imperieuse is worth the firepower of quite a few corvettes. If the Imperieuse was put into play instead of an equivalent number of corvettes then the wargods would have been just as dead if the freed up corvettes were sent into Delenda Est. All the GTVA needs to do is replace a large group of corvettes that are engaged with a solaris battlegroup.
My point is that they don't need Titan grade firepower to exterminate the wargods. They could free up a relatively small number of corvettes, apply much more pressure on a solaris BG, and still crush the wargods.
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Theres a reason the wargods didn't just casually jump out when they saw the Imperieuse. They had even been engaged for quite a while as they wrecked the Carthage BG, giving them plenty of time to recharge. I'm willing to bet a Solaris has even worse subspace maneuverability than a Karuna.
That, plus being in Saturn's gravity well making jump calculations even more complicated than usual. And probably making crash jumps more risky than usual.
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iirc 2 of the wargods had only recently entered the field when the Imp arrived so I think were still recharging their drives.
Also had the Wargod's ego reached the point they didn't have the exit vectors pre-plotted? because at the end of the day they had survived against monumental odds in the past and even shown the GTVA's best hunter killer team a good kicking not that long previously, putting the GTD Hood out of direct combat for a while in the process. Also the story stuff showed the Wargods being extremely confident in themselves so was fatal arrogance slipping in?
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You can't entirely pre-plot subspace trajectories, because they depend on a lot of impredictably varying factors. You can probably do some preliminary calculations, but you'll still need minutes of calculation everytime you want to jump out.
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Also with regards to them not having enough corvettes to crush the wargods AND maintain the tie-down, I'm willing to bet the Imperieuse is worth the firepower of quite a few corvettes. If the Imperieuse was put into play instead of an equivalent number of corvettes then the wargods would have been just as dead if the freed up corvettes were sent into Delenda Est. All the GTVA needs to do is replace a large group of corvettes that are engaged with a solaris battlegroup.
This is exactly my point. The wargods had to wait until the rest of the GTVA fleet was tied down, in the case of DE, all the corvette assets with the exception of Lopez's battle group. If the Imperiuse had been used INSTEAD of those corvettes, so that a corvette pack would be used to hunt the wargods, what would the UEF have done?
They'd have seen a destroyer they were sure wasn't in system, fully engaged (albeit not against the Wargods), which, unless Calder is criminally stupid, should be a sign that everything is not as it seems and there is likely a nasty trap in the works. I.e., it's time to bail. The wargods attack likely never would have been launched, and the rest of the fleet would have backed off ASAP.
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The only way, (in my opinion) that the Imperiuse could have been freed up to fight something else, as well as using Corvettes to hit the wargods means the Imperiuse has to be used as an ambush vessel as it was against the wargods, because as I saidearlier, if it's there at the beginning of the engagement, it will spook the UEF and the entire operation will hit "it's time to get the hell out of dodge" mode.
I don't disagree that the Imperiuse was overkill, it definitely was. But I don't think that the GTVA had enough assets to use anything else. If these corvettes were flagged for the ambush, something would have had to deal with the ships they actually did deal with, and that something would have had to be the Imperiuse. If nothing was doing their tie down job from the beginning, then UEF assets would have been able to bumrush some sad sorry ship with all their frigates that weren't engaged.
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When you've got twenty thousand people serving as bait for your trap, you want a little overkill in the force you send to save them.
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When you've got twenty thousand people serving as bait for your trap, you want a little overkill in the force you send to save them.
With Steele, and this is a point that is made repeatedly in WiH is that the GTVA dont care about the human cost of the war, the worry for Steele is the loss of a destroyer and it's strategic importance.
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When you've got twenty thousand people serving as bait for your trap, you want a little overkill in the force you send to save them.
With Steele, and this is a point that is made repeatedly in WiH is that the GTVA dont care about the human cost of the war, the worry for Steele is the loss of a destroyer and it's strategic importance.
On the other hand, the loss of life would have been what got him relieved of command and quite possibly ended the war if he'd screwed it up.
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It's also more dramatic from a storytelling POV to get roflstomped by a huge warship no one was expecting to be there, rather than getting roflstomped by a bunch of corvettes that were freed up by that same huge warship showing up somewhere off-screen....
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It's also more dramatic from a storytelling POV to get roflstomped by a huge warship no one was expecting to be there, rather than getting roflstomped by a bunch of corvettes that were freed up by that same huge warship showing up somewhere off-screen....
True.
Also, Steele is a very skilled military psychologist. He likely relied on the emotional impact of the Imperieuse showing up to shock the Wargods into a defeatist mindset. If the relief force had been less overwhelming, the Wargods' thoughts might have gone from "oh crap, how do we get any of us out of here alive" to "oh crap, how do we turn this around and still pull out a victory". They're skilled and resourceful, and with the proper mindset they might have been able to come up with something unexpected. That's not a possibility the GTVA could afford, especially considering how many variables and unknowns were already in play.
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You know, why didn't the Wargods have one of their ships just ram the Carthage after the Imperieuse showed up? I mean, unless I'm mistaken, it was the Carthage that was the primary jammer of the Wargods' long-range communications. So if even mostly successful, it would allow the rest of the Wargods to get an emergency bail-out by the First Fleet (obviously he wouldn't sortie the whole thing, just enough to get the task force back alive). But even if help couldn't arrive in time, the operation would still be a success if the Carthage was destroyed. While a big blow militarily, the political blow would be far larger--over ten thousand lives and a massive destroyer blown up by a ''ramming'' attack, of all things. Combine that with the loss of the Carthage's entire air wing and all of the casualties sustained by the rest of the Carthage battle group, that's going to be a huge death toll and shocking morale blow all at once.
It might also be a better screening action than charging the Imperieuse to get promptly obliterated one by one in short order. The effects of the ramming--as well as the violent destruction of both the Carthage and at least one corvette or frigate sized ship might well screw with beam targeting for a little bit.
Even given the mindset they were in at the time, it's a bit surprising that they didn't even bring up the possibility. They were already sending most of the task force to a quick death in a desperate hope to screen the Indus' and Yangtze's retreat. Karunas are faster than Titans...and they have a head start. So if they're already throwing there lives away in a desperate attempt, why not pull a heroic sacrifice in the most obvious and effective way possible--after all, the Carthage's engines were still working fine, as was a decent portion of its armament--isn't it a much better screened retreat if you can destroy half of the attacking force for the cost of a single Karuna (or even two)?
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One problem with that: Charging the Carthage would be just as effective as charging the Imperieuse. In both cases, the Imp has enough time to set up full-power beam shots (To say nothing about Hydra) at the charging vessels.
As such, charging the Imperieuse to make absolutely sure that she will fire on the charging vessels instead of the fleeing ones is the correct choice to make under the circumstances. Let's be clear here, the order to charge was given in the full knowledge that it probably won't work. The only objective was to delay the Imperieuse, not to damage the Carthage.
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FS2 retail already busted the Ramming Always Works (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RammingAlwaysWorks) trope with the Repulse and the Colie. There's no reason it would work better now.
OhGodHeLinkedTVTrope
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OhGodHeLinkedTVTrope
I hate you right now, currently have 2 tabs open and it's likely to get worse :p
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The Wargods ****ed bad in the last mission, they had the Carthage right there and just choose to give their buddies a few more minutes to escape, which was not necessary because they where already that far away to make it out alive.
The choice was to slug the Carthage, ram it and KILL ALL THE THINGS!, then think about getting someone out alive.
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They would have needed much more time than they had to make a dent to the Carthage armor. That thing is tougher than it looks by a huge margin.
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You just need to make catastrophic damage on it, a Narayana ramming full speed against the engine section will effectively turn an Orion into a useless floating hulk.
It will never move again, there... one less destroyer.
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Excepted that in FS, Ramming Does Not Work, as said above.
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Perhaps they'll get a clue next time and bring their own version of a meson bomb with them, in case things fk up again. That would have had brought down Steele's smile quite fast.
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One problem with that: Charging the Carthage would be just as effective as charging the Imperieuse. In both cases, the Imp has enough time to set up full-power beam shots (To say nothing about Hydra) at the charging vessels.
Really? I distinctly recall noticing the Altan Orde bump into the side of the Carthage while turning to face the Imperieuse.
Excepted that in FS, Ramming Does Not Work, as said above.
Sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it does. The GTD Goliath was destroyed by ramming during the Terran-Vasudan War (FS1 tech room description of the PVF Anubis).
Something happening a couple times in a game does not make it an inviolable physical law of the game's universe (not even if it's on tvtropes).
EDIT: It's also worth noting that Silent Threat: Reborn is canonical within the backstory of Blue Planet, so we also have to consider the Hope's kamikaze attack on the Hades. The Hades wasn't destroyed, but the damage done to its engines allowed the Soyakaze to destroy it before it could start Vasudan Superlaser Bombardment Holocaust Part 2: GTVI Boogaloo. I think that qualifies as ramming working.