Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Drogoth on June 05, 2012, 03:51:42 am
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I just kind of realized,
Every in mission Diomedes Corvette you see, dies.
What kind of **** luck do these captains have?
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The bad luck to try to attack the wargods (and particularly Laporte) without the benefit of a carefully laid out trap.
Remember that what we see in WiH is just a small part of the overall conflict, not it's entirety.
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I know, I just kinda of want to SEE one of them not get totally screwed haha, tev supporter that I am.
It's especially bad for the Valerie and the Medea since they were supposed to be the ones springing the trap.
If the Indus hadn't arrived, the Valerie would have kicked ass, and if Laporte hadn't had that Tev com unit, the Medea would have wrecked the Wargod's ****.
See what I mean by bad luck? at leas out of the ones we see haha.
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It's bad luck indeed. Under most combat situations, Diomedes are scary ships. If positioned correctly, they can fire all 4 TerSlashBlues on a single target, which means more DPS than a Chimera. Add to that the excellent anti-fighter defences and the fighterbay, and you probably have the most versatile design ever conceived by the Tevs.
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Well i know the Medea was at the Battle of Artemis station (in fact if i remember the start clip right it's beams are the ones that gut Cormorant). It must've been an auspicious Chi occassion for the Medea captain's luck... or Atreus being in formation with it, take ya pick. :lol:
That said, given their quite dangerous role (solo ops and flanking moves) i am suprised they didn't get the spirit drive prototypes; i'd vote they'd be the prime candidates. Not that i want to encourage this refit in any way of course.
Until then Dio captains, there's two other great ways to up yer luck; 1) Go home, 2) Defect (We have cookies... and expenses-paid date with a pilot of your choice if you bring us quality insider-intel ;7).
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the spirit drive prototypes
I just imagined a Diomedes going all erratic manoeuvres like a drunk and firing it's beams in all directions; something ala the Kadeshi Multibeam frigate from Homeworld 1 :D
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I just imagined a Diomedes going all erratic manoeuvres like a drunk and firing it's beams in all directions; something ala the Kadeshi Multibeam frigate from Homeworld 1 :D
I can never think of 'spirit drive' the same way again. :lol:
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I just kind of realized,
Every in mission Diomedes Corvette you see, dies.
This actually isn't true.
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the spirit drive prototypes
I just imagined a Diomedes going all erratic manoeuvres like a drunk and firing it's beams in all directions; something ala the Kadeshi Multibeam frigate from Homeworld 1 :D
Exactly my thoughts too... Note to BP devs, please include this in R2 :D
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I just kind of realized,
Every in mission Diomedes Corvette you see, dies.
This actually isn't true.
I don't recall one that survives, besides the one in the introduction, and I don't really count that as a playable mission. If I've missed one, I apologize but which Diomedes in the campaign missions survives?
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The Triteia from The Blade Itself
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I'll choose a Dio over every other Tev corvette :)
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Let's not forget that commanding a warship is a major step up from flying a fighter.
I think it was said somewhere in AoA that pilots who reach a certain rank are given the option of either given command of their own fighter squadron, or given command of a warship.
But yeah, it kinda sucks when you are likely to die either way. War is hell.
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Let's not forget that commanding a warship is a major step up from flying a fighter.
I think it was said somewhere in AoA that pilots who reach a certain rank are given the option of either given command of their own fighter squadron, or given command of a warship.
But yeah, it kinda sucks when you are likely to die either way. War is hell.
It's mentioned when Sam is promoted to Captain.
And I'd definitely rather be in a Diomedes than a fighter. I don't think I've ever even survived a direct attack on one, except in TBI.
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And I'd definitely rather be in a Diomedes than a fighter. I don't think I've ever even survived a direct attack on one, except in TBI.
Yeah, and the state of capital ship AI really helps you out in TBI.
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And I'd definitely rather be in a Diomedes than a fighter. I don't think I've ever even survived a direct attack on one, except in TBI.
Yeah, and the state of capital ship AI really helps you out in TBI.
Yup, there's simply no way a Karuna could survive 2 Deimos warships and a Diomedes consecutively... Not to mention the fighter wongs.
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Actually, it's quite possible to do even in a regular Karuna, if you know what you're doing and what are your enemies' strengths and weaknesses. Deimos is helpless from behind, and Diomedes from the front and bottom. Exploit that, and you could sink them in a Custos.
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It also depends a lot on whether you actually face them all at once or one by one, whether you start at range or in contact, whether you have your fighter complement intact and your pilots are better than theirs...
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And I'd definitely rather be in a Diomedes than a fighter. I don't think I've ever even survived a direct attack on one, except in TBI.
Yeah, and the state of capital ship AI really helps you out in TBI.
Yup, there's simply no way a Karuna could survive 2 Deimos warships and a Diomedes consecutively... Not to mention the fighter wongs.
Yeah, there is a way (it is pretty easy)
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"Helm, engage subspace drive" ? :p
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It also depends a lot on whether you actually face them all at once or one by one, whether you start at range or in contact, whether you have your fighter complement intact and your pilots are better than theirs...
Of course it does. The game would be pretty boring if the battle result was identical no matter the conditions.
Oh, and I forgot to say that I consider slapping the Karuna with Armor 10 or guardianing it in FRED cheating. Along with other FRED tricks. Were we to allow FRED scripting, an Amazon could defeat a Sathanas. :)
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My strategy for dealing with the Triteia has always been to creep toward it until I enter apocalypse range, then hit the reverse afterburners until I'm at full speed, turn on glide, throw everything into guns, and waste the Triteia while it vainly tries to get close enough to attack me. I'm pretty sure it gets within beam range at some point, but it's not smart enough to angle its nose down so that it can fire. Kaboom, scratch one Diomedes.
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Exactly. It is impossible for two Deimos and a Diomedes to box in a Karuna in such a way that it can't escape.
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Exactly. It is impossible for two Deimos and a Diomedes to box in a Karuna in such a way that it can't escape.
"Tactical! All beam fire on that Karuna's engines!"
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Yeaaaah, riiiiight. Precision beam targeting, with slash beams...
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Them engines are pretty big bro.
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Exactly. It is impossible for two Deimos and a Diomedes to box in a Karuna in such a way that it can't escape.
"Tactical! All beam fire on that Karuna's engines!"
Them engines are pretty big bro.
More like "Uh...try to direct the beams to the back portion of the ship, yeah, slash all over there".
Yeaaaah, riiiiight. Precision beam targeting, with slash beams...
Slash beams behave like regular beams if you fire-beam them at a subsystem!!
(not that that means that that is what that does that in universe)
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Still, since you're forced to use slash beams, you're forced to hope that you can do enough damage to the Karuna's engines to stop it from running away before it (or her fighters) disarm your slash beams.
The basic problem is that three ships can only ever cover 3 escape directions, leaving three others wide open.
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Doesn't the Diomedes have a fighterbay?
Those Stiletto II's ought to be good for something.
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However, as long as the Diomedes is positioned right and Deimoses are facing the Karuna, they'd make short work of it with their beams. Karuna doesn't have enough rear guns to quickly kill beams on a Diomedes. Also, let's keep strikecraft out of the speculation, because if we consider supporting fighters flying around, anything can happen, because of their superior precision strike capability. Stiletto IIs or Trebs can kill Karuna's engines just like Paveways or Grimlers can kill beams on Diomedes.
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One wonders whose idea it was to invent slash beams in the first place :confused: I can just imagine that design meeting:
Engineer 1: Guys I have this great idea! How about we make a beam that you aim in the general area of your target and hope it hits something important.
Engineer 2: That is the smartest thing I have heard all day. Lets do that.
Ship Captain: Wait you mean I can't accurately target an enemy vessel and have to rely on blind luck?
Even with the slash beams, I would still take a Diomedes any of the other Tev corvettes. I like the design philosophy of evenly distributed firepower.
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One wonders whose idea it was to invent slash beams in the first place :confused: I can just imagine that design meeting:
Engineer 1: Guys I have this great idea! How about we make a beam that you aim in the general area of your target and hope it hits something important.
Engineer 2: That is the smartest thing I have heard all day. Lets do that.
Ship Captain: Wait you mean I can't accurately target an enemy vessel and have to rely on blind luck?
Even with the slash beams, I would still take a Diomedes any of the other Tev corvettes. I like the design philosophy of evenly distributed firepower.
Within Blue Planet canon, slash beams cannot be jammed effectively. Scoring glancing blows with your beam cannons is definitely preferrable then not being able to fire your beams at all due to jamming.
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I sort of considered that slash beam sacrificed their accuray for increased refire rate, thus forcing gunners to sort of attempt to adjust their firing arc during each salvo.
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If you read the tech descriptions, slashers are anti-subsystem beams. They can hit multiple subsystems during a pass, making them good at stripping turrets off enemy ships.
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It's quite painful to watch a slasher streak across the long side of a Karuna, which it seems like it always does, too.
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One wonders whose idea it was to invent slash beams in the first place :confused: I can just imagine that design meeting:
Engineer 1: Guys I have this great idea! How about we make a beam that you aim in the general area of your target and hope it hits something important.
Engineer 2: That is the smartest thing I have heard all day. Lets do that.
Ship Captain: Wait you mean I can't accurately target an enemy vessel and have to rely on blind luck?
Even with the slash beams, I would still take a Diomedes any of the other Tev corvettes. I like the design philosophy of evenly distributed firepower.
Within Blue Planet canon, slash beams cannot be jammed effectively. Scoring glancing blows with your beam cannons is definitely preferrable then not being able to fire your beams at all due to jamming.
Slashing beams existed before jamming... The fact that they are resistant is a happy accident.
I sort of considered that slash beam sacrificed their accuray for increased refire rate, thus forcing gunners to sort of attempt to adjust their firing arc during each salvo.
This makes sense, the beam itself has problems staying on target (Like gun recoil) and it slashes because the gunners make it. In BP lore that could explain why they are resistant. The magnetic bottle is always jigging around, making it difficult to block.
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Slashing beams existed before jamming... The fact that they are resistant is a happy accident.
Nope. All warships have used extensive electronic warfare since before beams were a thing. It's part of the layered defensive systems (conformal shields as in the FS1 tech description, reactive armor systems, layering and compartmentalization) we assume all warships use, and which play into the BP concept of an armor class.
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So in BP canon, are Karunas able to jam beams independently, as in TBI, or only with the help of an AWACS, as it seems in Aresteria and Delenda Est? And are GTVA warships able to jam beams?
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Slashing beams existed before jamming... The fact that they are resistant is a happy accident.
Nope. All warships have used extensive electronic warfare since before beams were a thing. It's part of the layered defensive systems (conformal shields as in the FS1 tech description, reactive armor systems, layering and compartmentalization) we assume all warships use, and which play into the BP concept of an armor class.
Wait, so does this mean that the UEF is better at blocking beams than both the GTVA and the Shivans? Both of whom primarily use beam weapons and would be expected to know how to block beams as well as prevent their blockage better than the group who hasn't so much as looked at a beam in 50 yrs? If the GTVA thought that beam jamming was a feasable thing wouldn't they have tried that against the Sathanas? It seems more reasonable to assume that the GTVA just didn't know it was possible and that the UEF lucked into a solution that worked.
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Slashing beams existed before jamming... The fact that they are resistant is a happy accident.
Nope. All warships have used extensive electronic warfare since before beams were a thing. It's part of the layered defensive systems (conformal shields as in the FS1 tech description, reactive armor systems, layering and compartmentalization) we assume all warships use, and which play into the BP concept of an armor class.
Wait, so does this mean that the UEF is better at blocking beams than both the GTVA and the Shivans? Both of whom primarily use beam weapons and would be expected to know how to block beams as well as prevent their blockage better than the group who hasn't so much as looked at a beam in 50 yrs? If the GTVA thought that beam jamming was a feasable thing wouldn't they have tried that against the Sathanas? It seems more reasonable to assume that the GTVA just didn't know it was possible and that the UEF lucked into a solution that worked.
The tech room description did make it sound like it was a pretty panicky and jury rigged fix by the Jovians, evidently not soon enough to save Ganymede though :lol:
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So in BP canon, are Karunas able to jam beams independently, as in TBI, or only with the help of an AWACS, as it seems in Aresteria and Delenda Est? And are GTVA warships able to jam beams?
This is a question that comes up a lot, and it would probably be good to encode it in the tech room. Electronic warfare is a constant feature of combat in the BP universe at nearly every level - jamming of enemy targeting sensors to prevent them from exploiting damaged armor or systems, jamming of the adaptive fire control used by primary weapons like the Prometheus, jamming of sensors to degrade effective weapons range. Jamming beams in the sense we see in BP2 is not a magic box technology; it's a whole suite of ESM measures brought to bear on every level of the beam weapons system, from targeting systems to disruption of the magnetic bottle itself. In particular, the Jovians made enormous strides on the topic of jamming GTVA plasma beams because they already had a science team devoted to studying the Jupiter electromagnetic field and the Jupiter-Io flux tube - some of the most complicated and powerful electromagnetic phenomena in the system.
They were able to adapt these systems into a suite of jamming technologies that gave them a major edge. When the Katana and Altan Orde engaged their opponents at Simak Station, their on-board ECM systems were a tactical shock to their GTVA opponents, able to jam even the slash beams on the corvettes. But you'll note that even during the course of the fight the GTVA warships were able to adapt, requiring constant attack reprofiling to maintain effect. (If there were direct-fire beams on the field they might have posed an even greater challenge to handle simultaneously.)
By the time of the BP2 campaign proper the GTVA had taken initial steps to counter this sort of jamming attack, but the Oculus AWACS still brought overwhelming EW power to bear. Whether this advantage will persist remains to be seen - you can see the GTVA deploying countermeasures of a very practical sort in Delenda Est.
Wait, so does this mean that the UEF is better at blocking beams than both the GTVA and the Shivans? Both of whom primarily use beam weapons and would be expected to know how to block beams as well as prevent their blockage better than the group who hasn't so much as looked at a beam in 50 yrs? If the GTVA thought that beam jamming was a feasable thing wouldn't they have tried that against the Sathanas? It seems more reasonable to assume that the GTVA just didn't know it was possible and that the UEF lucked into a solution that worked.
I think you're still conflating jamming and ECM as a technology with beam jamming here, since I don't think your question follows from the post of mine you've quoted. Electronic warfare is a broad, fascinating, and often fairly classified topic even in contemporary warfare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_warfare
But with respect to your specific question - they're certainly doing a better job of it than the GTVA, in no small part due to the Jovian advantage mentioned above as well as their superior computational oomph. But it is not an invincible shield they've developed here; the GTVA has proven quite adapt at smashing through their jamming by one technology or another.
As for Shivan technology - a good look through the techroom entries on Shivan weapons may provide some very broad insight there.
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So in BP canon, are Karunas able to jam beams independently, as in TBI, or only with the help of an AWACS, as it seems in Aresteria and Delenda Est? And are GTVA warships able to jam beams?
I think it requires an AWACS and it's just given to the player in TBI for gameplay reasons even though it's perfectly possible to beat TBI without it. Almost certainly UEF only, given how recent it is and the fact that the 14th didn't have it in AoA.
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I think it requires an AWACS and it's just given to the player in TBI for gameplay reasons even though it's perfectly possible to beat TBI without it. Almost certainly UEF only, given how recent it is and the fact that the 14th didn't have it in AoA.
Jamming technology has always been a big part of FreeSpace combat as envisioned in the BPverse. The specific application of electronic warfare to the complete degradation of beam attacks is a Jovian innovation that was briefly almost perfect in its effectiveness even from the Karuna platform and then rapidly decayed into the domain of specialized AWACS ships as GTVA countermeasures raced to match. This decay may well continue.
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Sorry, I meant specifically the beam jamming aspect of the general ECM strategy. Obviously, Electronic Warfare occurs on a wide range of the EM spectrum in an attempt to block/intercept/redirect everything from communications to targeting to IFF data. If you get lucky enough you might even be able to reduce the intensity of a laser beam. Shoot, I wouldn't be surprised if they are trying to run malicious code on the enemy ships computer systems as well (like the Cylon virus on Battlestar Galactica).
If I have this correct, beam targeting/magnetic bottle/etc. were always being interfered with to varying degrees of success. However, the Jovians managed to dramatically improve it due to their high degree of experience with plasmas and their interaction with EM fields.
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It's bad luck indeed. Under most combat situations, Diomedes are scary ships. If positioned correctly, they can fire all 4 TerSlashBlues on a single target, which means more DPS than a Chimera. Add to that the excellent anti-fighter defences and the fighterbay, and you probably have the most versatile design ever conceived by the Tevs.
Wait--what angle IS that, exactly? I thought its four slash beams were located on its sides...unless they have huge firing arcs, I don't quite see how that works.
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Shoot, I wouldn't be surprised if they are trying to run malicious code on the enemy ships computer systems as well (like the Cylon virus on Battlestar Galactica).
Unless you're referring to the intelligent, learning-capable logic bomb virus--which wouldn't really be applicable to BP or FS canon (the dynamic is totally different), the Cylons never used a virus against the Colonials. One of their operatives co-developed the Command Navigation Program with a pompous idiot, programming several backdoors into it. The Colonial leadership, in turn, saw no problem whatsoever with putting that program on every single fighter, transport, Raptor, and ship in the entire Colonial Fleet, or with networking all of their ships at all times, with no in-place failsafes.
All the Cylons had to do was use any of those backdoors and tell the Colonial ships to power down completely. No virus needed, just a whole bunch of experienced, trained, and reasonable people being impossibly stupid, blind, and forgetful of very recent history (and all notions of electronic warfare and system security, no matter what kind of recent war with or potential threat of a technologically superior race whose MO was electronic warfare).
/BSG quasi-rant
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It's bad luck indeed. Under most combat situations, Diomedes are scary ships. If positioned correctly, they can fire all 4 TerSlashBlues on a single target, which means more DPS than a Chimera. Add to that the excellent anti-fighter defences and the fighterbay, and you probably have the most versatile design ever conceived by the Tevs.
Wait--what angle IS that, exactly? I thought its four slash beams were located on its sides...unless they have huge firing arcs, I don't quite see how that works.
I believe any target directly above the Diomedes can be hit by all 4 TerSlashBlues.
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Wait--what angle IS that, exactly? I thought its four slash beams were located on its sides...unless they have huge firing arcs, I don't quite see how that works.
Top of the ship, because of the way the emiters are angled on the sides. At least I remember the arcs overlapped on the old Dio model, haven't tested with the new one.
EDIT: ninja'd