Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: deathfun on October 12, 2012, 03:05:39 am
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http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Vancouver+area+teen+commits+suicide+after+telling+story+being+cyberbullied+with+video/7375941/story.html
Another heartwarming story to read when you wake up in the morning...
That's sarcasm by the way
And that's the paper I get every morning
Some people deserve to be shot or sent to the Bates Motel
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I case any of you are too lazy to click:
The mother of a teenager who died Wednesday of suspected suicide wants her daughter’s anti-cyber-bullying video to be used to help other young people.
Fifteen-year-old Amanda Todd was found dead in a Port Coquitlam home at 6 p.m. Wednesday, five weeks after she posted a heartbreaking video on YouTube detailing how she was harassed online and bullied.
“I think the video should be shared and used as an anti-bullying tool. That is what my daughter would have wanted,” Carol Todd, Amanda’s mother, told The Vancouver Sun in a message on Twitter.
In September, Amanda posted a video to YouTube entitled My Story: Struggling, bullying, suicide and self harm.
In it Amanda does not speak, but instead holds up to the camera pieces of paper on which she has printed her story, one phrase at a time. She documents a painful tale of being harassed through Facebook and shunned at school, leaving her feeling alone and suicidal.
It started in Grade 8, when an embarrassing photo was circulated to her relatives, friends and schoolmates. Amanda switched schools, but the bullying continued.
“I can never get that photo back,” she writes.
Click here for more photos of Amanda Todd (http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Vancouver+area+teen+commits+suicide+after+telling+story+being/7375941/story.html?tab=PHOT)
Later, she was confronted by a group of teens in front of her new school and beaten up, an attack that was filmed. Despondent, Amanda went home and drank bleach.
Her harassers posted photos of bleach and commented that they wished she was dead.
Near the end of the video, she writes: “Every day I think why am I still here? ... I have nobody. I need someone.”
In a message accompanying the video post, Amanda added: “I’m not doing this (video) for attention. I’m doing this to be an inspiration and to show that I can be strong.”
Premier Christy Clark posted a short video on YouTube Thursday sending her sympathies to Amanda’s family.
“I want to say to everyone who loved her, to all her family and friends, how sorry I am about her loss,” Clark — who spearheaded a ‘Pink Shirt Day’ anti-bullying campaign while she was a radio host — says in the video.
“No one deserves to be bullied. No one earns it. No one asks for it. It isn’t a rite of passage.
“Bullying has to stop.”
In 2008, the B.C. government declared an annual anti-bullying day, and Clark has advanced anti-bullying initiatives since becoming premier.
Amanda was a former cheerleader with the Vancouver All Stars squad based in her hometown of Port Coquitlam. She attended school there until the middle of Grade 8, when she moved to a Maple Ridge school. In February, she transferred to Coquitlam Alternate Basic Education (CABE) in Coquitlam.
Students and staff at Amanda’s school were grieving her death Thursday.
“It is a very sad case,” said Paul McNaughton, principal of CABE, where Amanda was in Grade 10.
“She was quite connected here. The staff and the students here are very much impacted. She had some very strong ties in the school and to staff in the school.
“I can tell you we feel we tried everything we could to help her when she came to us.”
In her video, Amanda says she moved schools in a futile attempt to escape her bullies.
Spokeswomen for the Maple Ridge and Coquitlam school districts would not discuss the case directly, but both said their districts take action when they receive bullying complaints.
Grief counsellors were speaking to students in both districts Thursday.
Dr. Tyler Black, a child and adolescent psychiatrist at B.C. Children’s Hospital, said the reasons people commit suicide are often very complex. He urged parents, educators and youth at risk of suicide to realize there is help through options such as www.youthinbc.com or 1-800-SUICIDE.
“The message is there are professionals there, there are people out there who can help.”
On a positive note, Black added, suicide among youth aged 10 to 24 dropped 25 per cent from 2000 to 2009.
Amanda joined YouTube on Sept. 6 and posted her video Sept. 7.
On Sept. 7, Amanda also uploaded a slide-show presentation called Cyber Bullying on Prezi.com, in which she gives advice on how to deal with such harassment.
In what could turn out to be her own very sad legacy, Amanda urged people to stand up to bullies and help victims:
“If you see that someone is being bullied, don’t be afraid to tell the bully to stop doing what they are doing. Make sure to tell them that it’s wrong and that they shouldn’t bully other kids.”
Amanda told parents “to always give your child emotional support” and to help them if they are being bullied.
B.C.’s education ministry announced last month that it will spend $2 million on a strategy called ERASE Bullying. The strategy includes a confidential online bullying reporting service that will allow students, school staff, parents and members of the public to make anonymous reports about potential or actual cases of school bullying and violence.
The Amanda Michelle Todd memorial Facebook page, created Wednesday morning, had more than 11,000 people “liking it” by early evening. Hundreds of people were also posting comments on the site.
“My thoughts and prayers go to her family, I cannot even begin to imagine what they are going through. High school is supposed to be the best time of your life, not one where you fear for yourself every day. No one should have to feel the way she did,” wrote Breanna Lockhart Collins. “She was a beautiful young girl who went way too soon.”
In a post on its Facebook page, G Force Gym — home of the Vancouver All Stars cheerleaders — wrote:
“Today we feel the loss of our former VAS family member Amanda ... I ask that we all watch her video and share her story so that her loss is not in vain. Allow this to be her legacy ... Allow us all to look around & find the next Amanda before another precious spunky teenager is lost.”
Amanda’s video echoed another similar online story entitled My Story: Suicide and Bullying, which had been uploaded by Mollydoyle18 on YouTube. Commenting on Amanda’s video, Molly posted Wednesday:
“Rest in peace and fly high to Amanda Todd. I was just messaging her about almost a week ago, and I just found out that she has taken her life. She was asking me about how to be an inspiration to others and to get her video more views, and now I have found out that she has passed away ... This is a terrible tragedy. I wish she could have had her happy ending.
With files from Mike Hager
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Port+Coquitlam+teen+driven+death+cyberbullying+with+video/7375941/story.html#ixzz294SGJjnC
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It started in Grade 8, when an embarrassing photo was circulated to her relatives, friends and schoolmates. Amanda switched schools, but the bullying continued.
“I can never get that photo back,” she writes.
Click here for more photos of Amanda Todd (http://some link)
Yay for automated markup of news articles, and lack of human oversight.
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Err, no. Those are snapshots from her video (where she is holding up her script); I checked that link out. Unless it's pointing somewhere different now?
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It started in Grade 8, when an embarrassing photo was circulated to her relatives, friends and schoolmates. Amanda switched schools, but the bullying continued.
“I can never get that photo back,” she writes.
Click here for more photos of Amanda Todd (http://some link)
Yay for automated markup of news articles, and lack of human oversight.
EDIT: Yeah. It's the same thing as clicking on "Photos" in the Vancouver Sun article.
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Yes, I know, but the context is pretty misleading. If the link had been named "For a gallery of stills from that video, click here", and if it had been placed next to the section where that video is mentioned, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
As it is, the article talks about some embarassing pics of that woman, then links to a picture gallery with the words "For more pictures, click here". Tell me, what would you expect to see in that gallery?
My point is, whoever or whatever put that link in that place, with that description, didn't actually think it through. As I still have some faith in human nature (yeah, yeah, I am naive, I get it), I would rather believe it had been placed there by some algorithm.
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Yes, I know, but the context is pretty misleading. If the link had been named "For a gallery of stills from that video, click here", and if it had been placed next to the section where that video is mentioned, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
As it is, the article talks about some embarassing pics of that woman, then links to a picture gallery with the words "For more pictures, click here". Tell me, what would you expect to see in that gallery?
My point is, whoever or whatever put that link in that place, with that description, didn't actually think it through. As I still have some faith in human nature (yeah, yeah, I am naive, I get it), I would rather believe it had been placed there by some algorithm.
It's an algorithm. If you take a look at the article on the website itself as opposed to the quoted section jr2 provided, you'll notice that it repeats itself twice, and the "Click here for ways to get help if you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts" three times
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Yeah I included that after checking the link 'cause I figured why not, it's a convenient way to read all of the script without watching the movie (I think, didn't check to be sure nothing was skipped)... however, you're right, it could be seen as if it were links to the embarrassing photos. I should have thought more than twice for that one, sorry.
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Ah good ole' HLP GD, the article on a tragic case of cyber bullying doesn't even make it two posts past OP and changes to a discussion about hyperlinking.
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Saw this yesterday and it makes me sick. It's a failure in our education system and a failure of our police - where's the report of the extortionist being arrested for distribution of child pornography and extortion? Where's the report of charges against the teens that assaulted her? She lied and said it was her fault? Bull****. Police and school officials are supposed to lay charges in these sorts of assaults precisely for that reason.
The whole issue is just a disgusting failure of the people who should have been looking out for and protecting this girl. And the Facebook tributes and YouTube comments by her classmates who stood by and did nothing are infuriating.
I was bullied in early high school. As most people do, I got through it relatively unscathed but it certainly was a contributing factor in my decision to work in law enforcement - nobody deserves to go through life with the system that is supposed to protect us all constantly letting us down.
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Sorry for dragging this offtopic.
On-Topic:
When I was in school, I was repeatedly a victim of bullying. I am very glad that I haven't turned out to become a bully in response; nevertheless the experience left me scarred and not a little bit damaged.
I can not imagine how hard it is for kids in similar situations today, given how easy it is for bullies nowadays to haunt their intended victims far outside the immediate school context via social media.
And yes, I definitely do see a need for the people nominally in charge to start taking these things seriously. It's easy for me to separate insults to my online persona from my real self, but that's only the case because I grew up without an online presence. I imagine it's the same for most teachers and counsellors, being online isn't real to these people on a very fundamental level.
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Well, I've also been bullied (in the middle school), but I've taken a bit different approach to it. It's a good thing middle school lasts just 3 years around here, because I was seriously plotting murdering at least one of this vermin (and all of them, at one point...).
Personally, I'm pretty resilient, so instead of developing a depression, I coped by reducing such "people" to animals, about to the level of insects. A cat hissing at you isn't much of an insult, and if an insect was something similar (or just getting in your way), it'd get squished. It's a good thing we didn't had a gun in the house, because then, I could've actually gone through with it. The only reason I didn't was that I left that school before figuring out the best way to take a human out by surprise (they were bigger and stronger than me, as usual) using a hammer or an ax. Yes, I've got it down to instruments of murder, and I've had even more disturbing details down (I'm no longer considering it, so don't call the police, please :)). Call it insane (so do I, in retrospect), but the reasoning seemed pretty logical back then.
It would've most likely been quite a black spot in my life, since police is somewhat more dedicated to tracking murderers than bullies, and saying the victim deserved it probably isn't a good defense. I'd still have a sort of twisted satisfaction if I heard a story about a nerdy, bullied kid snapping and killing the bullies instead of himself (and I really enjoy victims getting back at bullies in fiction). Maybe the resulting lawsuit would draw more attention than a notice about a suicide.
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someone tried bullying me. once. i wonder if he ever regained vision in his right eye. after that i had a reputation and hung out with the crazy black trenchcoat crowd (that was around the time of the columbine massacre). teachers used to overlook crap like that. these days it seems like if you fight back they expel your ass and the bully remains in play.
its also a completely different game these days, as theres this whole online social bull**** thing. that is just way out of the school's jurisdiction. the schools can only really stop bullying when it happens on school grounds. and that goes for anything online. all the schools can really do there is block those sites. it would probibly be better to give all the kids guns and a crash course in revenge. revenge is a real ego booster.
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I'm sorry to hear others have had such experiences. Sometimes I think public schools have become a training ground for predatory behavior so they can get those bullies into positions of power, authority or bureaucracy to continue what they have learned so they could follow orders and do jobs that no moral person would ever do. So much for a 'safe environment' for children to learn. Interesting how it all leads to a straightjacket of homogenization out of fear of being bullied so severely, as well as breeding cowardice and sheep-like behavior by those following the bullies.
Even worse, the whole cyberbully thing will be abused to push SOPA like bills instead of, you know, actually trying to fix the problem.
I'd like to put up the following video of the late George Carlin that I believe fits perfectly in this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMqJvhmD5Yg
"There's a reason education sucks, it's the same reason it'll never, ever, ever be fixed".
"You know what they want? They want obedient workers, obedient workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ****tier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime.."
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I experienced some bullying as a kid in elementary school. It went on for about two years before I got fed up with it enough to punch the ringleader in the face. I always thought if I did that, the other kids in his "group" would gang up on me. It turns out he just kept the spot where I punched him covered by his hand and giving me angry looks as his "gang" dispersed. The bullying, at least in this case, seemed like something terrible and insurmountable, but when confronted it turned out to be made of wet tissue paper. But I did have people to talk to and I didn't have facebook and other media like that that make it easy for people to harass you in every way even when they're not there.
Driving someone to suicide - that takes more than just someone yanking your chain every single day till you punch them in the face. It takes some effort, and should be treated the same as being an accomplice to murder. Proving this unequivocally in court would probably be problematic, though. Not a legal expert but if you bullied someone enough for that person to take their own life, you probably deserve to spend some happy jail time being romanced by the "sodomy sisters" guys from cell block D.
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someone tried bullying me. once. i wonder if he ever regained vision in his right eye. after that i had a reputation and hung out with the crazy black trenchcoat crowd (that was around the time of the columbine massacre). teachers used to overlook crap like that. these days it seems like if you fight back they expel your ass and the bully remains in play.
Serves him right. :yes: Shame you only took out one eye, or he'd be done with bullying for good. :) That's how vermin like that should be dealt with. Shame that authorities these days would most likely make life difficult for the defender, not for the bully. Wouldn't it be possible to fill a lawsuit if something like that happened though? I heard it's rather easy to sue somebody over such things in US.
I'm sorry to hear others have had such experiences. Sometimes I think public schools have become a training ground for predatory behavior so they can get those bullies into positions of power, authority or bureaucracy to continue what they have learned so they could follow orders and do jobs that no moral person would ever do. So much for a 'safe environment' for children to learn. Interesting how it all leads to a straightjacket of homogenization out of fear of being bullied so severely, as well as breeding cowardice and sheep-like behavior by those following the bullies.
This might very well be intentional, considering cowardish sheep are easy to rule, and easy to sell stuff to. Meaning it's very convenient for both government and corporations. I'm noticing that too in Poland, plus the exams that feel like brainwashing tests. They teach you to think in terms of an abstract and rather stupid test, and the tests themselves mostly check how well you learned to solve them. It's difficult not to sound like a conspiracy theorist at this point, but those are hard facts. Maybe at least some of those "conspiracy nuts" have a point... :nervous:
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i wouldn't call it a conspiracy. just the way things have always been. alphas run everything and everyone else just kinda goes with it, and anyone who doesn't and who cant best the alpha is an outcast. human society isn't really that different from that of apes, monkeys and other mammals. we've just replaced the top monkey with politicians and ceos.
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Actually, it's not that simple. If it was, the world would be much more efficient. A single ruler has potential to run things much more smoothly than a gathering of fools who can hardly agree on anything. On small scale, it still works like that (though with money replacing strength in many, but not all, cases), but on larger scale it's a mess. You can't even really say corporations rule the world, because who is a "corporation"? The owners? The board of directors? The decision-making process in big corporations is so mind-boggingly complex that I don't think anybody consciously controls all this. Really, having the Illuminati run the world would make much more sense if it wasn't for the fact their name means "enlightened", while whoever runs the world is clearly a either a blind idiot or a random generator, more likely the former, because a random generator would occasionally do something sensible.[/rant]
Anyway, I don't know how it's in US, but in Poland, schools are biased towards teaching obedience to a suspicious level. It's subtle enough to be difficult to notice, but pretty much omnipresent.
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Indeed, organisational theory has long well documented the limits of what a single person can manage.
There is no "alpha" in charge.
... and one of the most common reason of quickly expanding companies running headfirst into a wall and finding a quick demise is a strong willed CEO that was unable to delegate responsibility as the whole thing got too big for a single person to efficiently manage.
Also, intriguingly... at the opposite end of the spectrum an alpha male is the inferior choice as well. Ultrasmall companies are in fact much more efficiently managed by a having no central figure in charge and employing a equality/group based decision making process. I.e. With 5-10 people it's still possible to discuss it with everyone in person and letting the best argument decide.
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Alphas can lead Alphas if sub-Alphas (Betas?) are also willing to follow, however. So you could have a single Alpha as long as they didn't micro-manage and just did their job (leading the other leaders as they needed it).
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Alphas can lead Alphas if sub-Alphas (Betas?) are also willing to follow, however. So you could have a single Alpha as long as they didn't micro-manage and just did their job (leading the other leaders as they needed it).
Which leads to a classical line organisation structure which is horribly outdated and inefficient at managing any halfway large/complex company.
I.e. the bigger the company would get ... the more layers of middle management you would need until the process of actually getting any kind of order from top to bottom or feedback from bottom to top becomes simply idiotic. That's the classic unflexible corporate leviathan that is completely unable to survive in any kind of highly competitive environment. It may work for a company with a monopoly ("work" here meaning the company would not simply die), but even then it would be incredibly inefficient by definition and suboptimal to any stakeholder.
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I'd not call this as much a shortcoming of police work, or a shortcoming of educators, as much as I'd call it a shortcoming of society...
Concepts of respect and humility are somehow unpopular - why this is the case is a mystery in some regards, but quite obvious in others. A culture of respect does not mistreat others with malicious intent, and in fact strives to counteract the oppressor. Humility requires a degree of introspectiveness that forces ourselves to analyze and understand our personal natures, and combats hypocracy. Why this is obviously unpopular is due to the simple fact that it opposes pride, which acts as the justification for a bully.
When culture can shift to one of respect and humility, problems such as this case will not exist. Being that probably everyone in this thread has been bullied (myself included), I'd argue that it now becomes the role of ourselves, as members of society, to communicate those concepts within society. Laws exist as enforced morals and moral constructs within a governed body, but governments certainly have a horrible track record to teaching morals.
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People getting harassed for not fitting in is nothing new, but I think children harassing each other to the point that the victims kill themselves is a... more recent development. I don't like to harp on the "good old days" since a lot of things were as bad or worse in the past than they are now, but it seems like people are more openly cruel now, like being nice about anything is a weakness. Maybe it's not so much people being more cruel as it is the lines between groups being redrawn. Like in the US for the longest time, immigrants and racial minorities were acceptable outgroups to treat like ****. It still happens nowadays, but it's not nearly as socially acceptable as it used to be. So now it's like the outgroup is shifting to... I don't know, anyone who strays too far from the norm and seems like they can be bullied without repercussion. The internet makes it worse, since now people can be harassed and blackmailed anytime anywhere with a minimum of effort.
Compulsory education is totally designed to crank out people smart enough to hold a job, but not smart enough to call out the ruling class on their bull****. It's been that way since damn near forever AFAICT. Not even a conspiracy really, just most people are kept unaware of it or otherwise don't care. Internet could potentially have a big effect on this too, provided it doesn't get shut down or otherwise restricted somehow. Which everyone had been trying really hard to do the past couple of years.
Also, as an aside, prison rape shouldn't really be seen as an acceptable practice anymore. The whole "revenge" style of justice system isn't very effective and just creates repeat offenders. I'll stop there though. This should get its own thread if we really want to get into it.
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TBH, the whole prison system is broken. Locking people up and supporting them from the country's money sometimes actually makes their situation better (I've read about a homeless guy who comitted a minor, but costly crime each autumn, just to get locked up for about half a year and come out when it starts getting warm). The only thing it's good for is training the future criminals. There are numerous other ways of punishment which are cheaper (if you make the criminal work, he/she can even make profits for the country) and more effective. In the end, the only difference between death penalty and life imprisonment is the price (in both cases, the end result is elimination of the criminal from the society), which is much lower for a death penalty.
Compulsory education is totally designed to crank out people smart enough to hold a job, but not smart enough to call out the ruling class on their bull****. It's been that way since damn near forever AFAICT. Not even a conspiracy really, just most people are kept unaware of it or otherwise don't care. Internet could potentially have a big effect on this too, provided it doesn't get shut down or otherwise restricted somehow. Which everyone had been trying really hard to do the past couple of years.
This is mostly different from conspiracy theories by the fact nobody is hiding anything. :) And that's the scary part. There's no conspiracy, they are not only really trying to control you, but they don't even bother hiding it. Who needs conspiracies when the world is composed mostly of sheep, who could easily figure out the truth, but just don't care? It's a good thing there was enough people protesting against censoring the internet in one stroke, but what they can't accomplish with one bill, they'll accomplish with 1000, each chipping away a little portion of our freedom. For most people, one small change at a time is like no change at all: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2004-09-05/ (illustrates my point, but in different context)
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TBH, the whole prison system is broken. Locking people up and supporting them from the country's money sometimes actually makes their situation better (I've read about a homeless guy who comitted a minor, but costly crime each autumn, just to get locked up for about half a year and come out when it starts getting warm). The only thing it's good for is training the future criminals. There are numerous other ways of punishment which are cheaper (if you make the criminal work, he/she can even make profits for the country) and more effective. In the end, the only difference between death penalty and life imprisonment is the price (in both cases, the end result is elimination of the criminal from the society), which is much lower for a death penalty.
Yeah.... let's make them work in the mines.
Kidding aside... how would you make sure that the criminals actually do the work you want to assign them and what do you do if they don't? What do you do if they kill someone at their new workplace? Assign them more work? lol.
Community work is a good choice for first offenders and small offenses... but for everyone? for actual serious criminals? Really? They'd likely laugh at you and go back to their gang. (Possibly after beating you up :) )
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That's where psychological attacks come into play Mikes. Nobody likes having to lose their mind, and the thought of being put into a drug induced state vegetable won't appeal as much to the serious criminals. That and the workplace would be essentially a work camp similar to what Canada had during the Great Depression... or "Relief Camps" as we'd politely call them
On the subject of bullying, I found that getting yourself put on the watch list is highly effective at warding off people from bothering you. Wasn't a fun half of a year, but a few subtle plants and not so subtle writing on a french quiz that after I'm done school I'd come back with a shotgun, made the next four and a half years worry free.
Redsnipers comment about it being a recent thing got me looking at cases for it, when I came across this
In recent years, a series of bullying-related suicides in the US and across the globe have drawn attention to the connection between bullying and suicide. Though too many adults still see bullying as "just part of being a kid," it is a serious problem that leads to many negative effects for victims, including suicide. Many people may not realize that there is also a link between being a bully and committing suicide.
http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html
That's probably where quite a few of the issues on non-action lay in regards to not taking it seriously enough to eradicate the behaviour. Factor in parents who were bullies, probably passing that trait onto their kids, and then them onto theirs, etc.
Although, this was equally as interesting
Not just the victims were in danger: "The perpetrators who are the bullies also have an increased risk for suicidal behaviors," Kim said.
And in the same article, the same points about adults is made again
In the United States, many adults scoff at bullying and say, "Oh, that's what happens when kids are growing up,"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080717170428.htm
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Well, yeah. Healthy well-adjusted kids usually don't tend to be bullies. So the bullies themselves have their fair share of issues I'm sure, and then they just spread the pain around... :doubt:
Prisons should focus on rehabilitation. Making prison as terrible as possible as a deterrent obviously doesn't work.
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This is one of the few areas I can reasonably say that technology has had a negative effect. When I was young bullies could only rule people while in school, unless they lived near their victims but even then the moment the victim passed their front door they could no longer be harassed. Not the case today as the bully now has access to more avenues of attack via the internet and social media. Home no longer becomes a haven as victims can still be reached and harassed even there. So the victim is under near constant attack which wears them down faster than it would have 20 years ago. Not to mention social sites make it even easier for a bully to form and lead mob mentality attacks on their victims, rumors and falsehoods are far easier and faster to spread now that children carry phones and have access to the internet. I'm not blaming technology for the epidemic of bullying but it has made the modern bully more effective.
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Technology is just an amplifier, garbage in, garbage out. You can apply some filtering to the garbage in, but it's far better to address the source than to try to ignore it with blinders.
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why am i reading this thread i was operating just fine under the illusion that hypocritical idiocy isn't the norm everywhere
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Yeah.... let's make them work in the mines.
Kidding aside... how would you make sure that the criminals actually do the work you want to assign them and what do you do if they don't? What do you do if they kill someone at their new workplace? Assign them more work? lol.
Community work is a good choice for first offenders and small offenses... but for everyone? for actual serious criminals? Really? They'd likely laugh at you and go back to their gang. (Possibly after beating you up :) )
I'm not talking "community work" like street sweeping. I'm talking heavy, exhausting, but simple work. Actual mining is a bit too advanced for this, but there are plantations where there's no way to do harvesting using machines, and I'm pretty sure that there's at least a few more jobs like this left. And the answer to escape attempts or violence would be armed overseers, who'd clobber (and if this fails, kill) prisoners that are out of line. Ah, and they should be fed based on how much they work, meaning slacking off=no food, or the worst food they serve. So yeah, basically Canadian or even Russian work camps. Or even the classic "wild west style" quarry work.
Also, very serious crimes (generally murder and rape), especially repeated offenders, should be dealt with using death penalty. There's really no point in keeping scum like that around.
Prisons should focus on rehabilitation. Making prison as terrible as possible as a deterrent obviously doesn't work.
The question is, what's there to rehabilitate? People who commit crimes because they're crazy go to mental hospitals. For people who consciously break the law for their own profit, a work camp should be enough (of course, a shrink should be available at all times). People who break the law to survive shouldn't happen, if they do, there's something wrong with the law. People who break the law accidentally pay fines or do community work in most cases. Of course, there are a few other causes for committing crimes, but I think that work camps of various degrees of severity should be able to handle that.
In recent years, a series of bullying-related suicides in the US and across the globe have drawn attention to the connection between bullying and suicide. Though too many adults still see bullying as "just part of being a kid," it is a serious problem that leads to many negative effects for victims, including suicide. Many people may not realize that there is also a link between being a bully and committing suicide.
This is a big part of the problem, another is that in the recent years, teachers become essentially powerless. Back in ye olde days, a teacher would take a big, wooden ruler, or a belt, and knock some sense into troublemakers. This made pupils have a modicum of respect for the teacher, and for the laws in general. I'd like to see that back, because the "modern" methods of punishment don't work on complete idiots. Also, teachers are pretty much powerless these days. If my complaints about bullying were taking effect, there would be no need to ever consider using an ax as a solution to this problem. At least in my school, if the teachers could flog those idiots in front of the whole school, they'd do that at the moment's notice.
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This is a big part of the problem, another is that in the recent years, teachers become essentially powerless. Back in ye olde days, a teacher would take a big, wooden ruler, or a belt, and knock some sense into troublemakers. This made pupils have a modicum of respect for the teacher, and for the laws in general. I'd like to see that back, because the "modern" methods of punishment don't work on complete idiots. Also, teachers are pretty much powerless these days. If my complaints about bullying were taking effect, there would be no need to ever consider using an ax as a solution to this problem. At least in my school, if the teachers could flog those idiots in front of the whole school, they'd do that at the moment's notice.
Indeed true on the teachers part
Afterall, one small little lip or touch on a student could mean instant lawsuit, blown out of proportion court case, and job loss. Parents don't hold their kids accountable for their own actions. They're little ****ing angels the lot of them
Despite the fact that the kid your "angel" kid was beating can no longer use his arm
Which is why I am glad that my parents never thought that way. If I screwed up, they basically told me I'm a dumbass for getting caught
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it is impossible for parents to be impartial when their own kids are concerned. the very act of reproduction has a way of severely altering the brain chemistry of adults (and lets not forget teenage knock-ups). i would even go as far as to consider it a form of insanity. shortly after i discovered this i was able to use that knowledge to convince my own mother to score me dope and hookers. she still thinks im the best thing since sliced bread. little does she know im going to stick her in a home/asylum as soon as she finishes going senile. in reality children are all lord of the flies. cold hearted beasts who will literally kill each other if left to their own devices. to be avoided in post apocalyptic scenarios (they would likely do you a cannibalism).
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Parents don't hold their kids accountable for their own actions. They're little ****ing angels the lot of them
This I suspect is the real problem. When a kid gets in trouble these days, the parents are very often straight down the school to argue that their kid can't have done anything wrong. On the other hand, if I'd gotten into trouble as a kid, my mum would have been straight down the school to find out exactly how badly she should punish me on top of whatever the school decided to dole out!
Of course, this still happened to a certain degree when I was a kid, but it's much more prevalent now. We've lost respect for teachers as professionals, often seeing them as glorified babysitters who are just there to validate our children. It's nothing to do with the lack of corporal punishment and everything to do with the fact that children know they can get away with being dicks in class because their parents won't back up the teacher's decisions.
It's actually the main reason why I'm happy to teach here in China but would never, ever, teach kids in the UK. Over here teaching is still a highly respected profession.
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We've lost respect for teachers as professionals, often seeing them as glorified babysitters who are just there to validate our children.
To an extent, they brought it upon themselves
http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/26/11395270-autistic-boys-father-why-hasnt-teacher-been-fired-over-bullying?lite
http://stateimpact.npr.org/indiana/2012/02/15/why-principals-dont-fire-bad-teachers-even-when-given-the-option/
Teacher's themselves are hardly held accountable for their actions, and it seems to be growing in frequency. Strikes galore where I live (students suffer because of it with school closures despite teachers being seen as ESSENTIAL SERVICES which ARE NOT ALLOWED TO STRIKE OUTRIGHT), for the most ridiculous reasons.
it is impossible for parents to be impartial when their own kids are concerned.
Pretty much.
Yet, for some reason, I keep being told that part of being an adult is maintaining control over your emotions so as not to cloud your rational thinking. This was drilled into my skull by my own parents
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Teachers are among the least-willing to allow their professional standards and abilities to be judged. It should not be surprising that, working as hard as they have to avoid any kind of accountability as a profession, there is little respect there.
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Let's avoid generalizations here. First, part of being a parent is using reason as well as your emotions to do what is actually the best thing for your kid; if your child is causing trouble, validating that kind of behavior, or ignoring it, is not in his / her best interest. It could be a sign of deeper problems or maybe even getting a little spoiled (read: rotten inside).
If the former, investigation and care (perhaps you aren't 'being there' enough to see what's really going on or for your child to trust you enough to tell you about something terrible) are in order.
If the latter, some uncomfortable correction needs to take place (basically, reflecting a mini version of the real world back to them; i.e., if you break the rules in the real world, your freedom gets taken away from you. You are grounded for a <day / few days / week, depending on the severity and repeat of the infraction>.
I personally believe corporal punishment is also in order if warranted. (Esp. when they are younger... don't play with outlets. They hurt. Like so! <smak>. You can't hit other people just because you're angry at them. That's unacceptable and hurts them, they feel just like you. <smak>) Although one must never use this when anger clouds reason and judgement. If you're mad and corporal punishment is warranted, send them to their room until you regain your full senses. Corporal punishment should be as painful to you internally as it is to them.
Some parents are good and try their best despite their imperfections, and some are the scum of the Earth who view their children as just another way to satisfy their needs / wants (money, power/influence, sometimes worse things).
Teachers are the same. Some care for the children they teach as if they were their own and pour their heart into their profession. Others do their job to the best of their abilities, as well they should. And then there are the narcissists who don't care. Children are what they have to tolerate to collect their paycheck / benefits, as well as their insurance to avoid being held accountable for the horrible job they are doing (you can't fire me! think of the kids!), as well as of course some worse filth that take advantage of kids.
Anyways, my 2c, and, by the way, wish me luck / pray for me. I'm a Dad (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=53623.msg1647075#msg1647075)! :)
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I'm not a huge fan of the idea of corporal punishment, but I do think it can be effective in certain situations to help a young child understand what they're doing to other people. For instance, my one younger brother was terrible at biting people when he was a toddler. One day he bit my mom...and my mom decided to give him a little bite back. That pretty much stopped him for good. :D
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Below certain (mental) age, it's the only thing children would understand. And I've seen enough teenagers with mental age of 4-5 that I wouldn't be opposed to bringing ol' Loch Gelly Belts back into schools. Some "people" are too frakking dumb to understand anything else, go to school to slack off, disrupt lessons and meet with others of their kind and after school, end up in prison for vandalism or stealing. You either clobber sense into them, or live with trouble they cause. I've seen monkeys (not only apes, monkeys) and cats much smarter than these vermin.
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i think the real issue here is whether dragon represents a hopeless failure of our civilisation in moving beyond being smallminded idiots, or whether he is merely an isolated-enough throwback to maintain faith in humanity
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Let's not get personal here.
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in reality children are all lord of the flies. cold hearted beasts who will literally kill each other if left to their own devices. to be avoided in post apocalyptic scenarios (they would likely do you a cannibalism).
Yep, childrens brains are in many ways structuraly similar to that of a psychopath, another group where bullying and animal abuse is often present. It takes certain development until the empathy circuit is working well. In fact, an adult with the mind of a child would be diagnosed as a psychopathic pedophile, lol..
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i think the real issue here is whether dragon represents a hopeless failure of our civilisation in moving beyond being smallminded idiots, or whether he is merely an isolated-enough throwback to maintain faith in humanity
I'm just stuck in a backwards, backwater country with various systems either antiquated or messed up by trying to update them. Maybe it's not like that in the rest of the world, but if you lived where I do, you'd either form similar opinions about the majority of the teenage population, or become similar to one of those small-minded idiots I have to deal with. I might seem like an extremist, but trust me, everything I said, I've seen with my own eyes. And no, I'm not exaggerating. It's really that bad around here. Come and see for yourself if you don't believe.
Yep, childrens brains are in many ways structuraly similar to that of a psychopath, another group where bullying and animal abuse is often present. It takes certain development until the empathy circuit is working well. In fact, an adult with the mind of a child would be diagnosed as a psychopathic pedophile, lol..
Generally, "adult children" are considered another category of mentally ill. They have something in common with psychopaths, but are a different category. However, it is possible for empathy and rational thinking to develop around the time of middle school (and in rare cases, earlier), and in high school, they should be in working order. As many incidents show, that's not always the case.
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all humans have the capacity to be complete idiots given the right situation (or enough beer). even einstein had his derps.
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Yes, but they were pretty much harmless (like the time Coast Guard hauled him and his boat back in when he went sailing and got completely lost :)). For alcohol-related idiocy, check out Darwin Awards. However, those are one-time incidents (or in case of alcoholics, at least predictable). Some people act like idiots all the time, and they're the real problem.
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Don't worry, Dragon, everyone has that tendency somewhere. The real issue becomes, what do you do with it? The problem with visualizing it in your head etc is sometimes you can get put in situations where you might snap and actually do it. It's better to try to find some distraction or outlet for your frustration. exercise and Martial Arts would be a good one, as it has the side advantage of helping you prepare to better defend yourself, if only physically.
For the mental bit, try philosophy and debate classes. If you can talk your way in circles around your opponents and make them look dumb even to themselves, while maintaining a physical presence menacing enough to deter assaults that way...
Well, it's not always possible, but it's worth a shot and gives you something to shoot for.
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For the mental bit, try philosophy and debate classes. If you can talk your way in circles around your opponents and make them look dumb even to themselves, while maintaining a physical presence menacing enough to deter assaults that way...
Believe me, I've tried talking circles around them. They didn't even realize that. :) That's what I meant when I mentioned that my rant was just speaking from experience. I could prove my mental superiority to them all I wanted, and they didn't even realize I was making fun of them and making them looks like complete morons they were! I couldn't believe that somebody could be so dumb, but there you have it. In fact, the only reason I've only started plotting their demise after 3 years was that they were somewhat amusing in their idiocy, and there wasn't much else to do. They were moments which made them worth putting up with at first, but later it stopped being funny and started being frustrating.
It was the same kind of fun as making an annoying, begging cat dance around, stand on hind feet and meow to get a leftover piece of meat (or even better, I've got a cat dumb enough to do that for a potato shaving, which she wouldn't even eat :)). It gets old after a while though.
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...My cat eats potatoes actually
And I've plotted people's demise similar to you there Dragon
It is actually quite amusing
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Yes, but they were pretty much harmless (like the time Coast Guard hauled him and his boat back in when he went sailing and got completely lost :)). For alcohol-related idiocy, check out Darwin Awards. However, those are one-time incidents (or in case of alcoholics, at least predictable). Some people act like idiots all the time, and they're the real problem.
The mistakes of the capable are far more dangerous than the mistakes of fools. Those who are capable are trusted and given responsibility. Those who are fools are not. Who can do more damage?
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It's also a one time mistake as opposed to a constant occurrence
Regardless, that's a fair point. "Oh, sorry, I forgot to check his harness before latching him on the bungee cord"
That and, I was waiting for something like this to pop up somewhere
(http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/540905_363129240441599_1111542661_n.jpg)
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...My cat eats potatoes actually
Mine doesn't, that's what makes this so funny. :) She's just dumb, but I've seen even dumber humans.
And I've plotted people's demise similar to you there Dragon
It is actually quite amusing
If by "people like me", you meant "people from Poland", you're probably justified. AFAIK, this country most likely looks like a gathering of fools of the kind I'm describing from the outside. It looks like that from the inside too, BTW, only that you can occasionally meet a good person if you know where to look for them. :)
And if you meant it in any other way, then consider yourself invited to Poland.
Yes, but they were pretty much harmless (like the time Coast Guard hauled him and his boat back in when he went sailing and got completely lost :)). For alcohol-related idiocy, check out Darwin Awards. However, those are one-time incidents (or in case of alcoholics, at least predictable). Some people act like idiots all the time, and they're the real problem.
The mistakes of the capable are far more dangerous than the mistakes of fools. Those who are capable are trusted and given responsibility. Those who are fools are not. Who can do more damage?
What makes you assume capable people are trusted and given responsibility? It's a rather wishful statement, but unfortunately not exactly true. Smart, competent, well trained people usually make small, harmless mistakes, though there are rare occasions (various vehicle crashes due to driver/pilot error, for instance) where this small mistake causes a great deal of damage. In toto, I think fools make more damage than intelligent people. As the old saying goes, "To err is human, to persist in error is foolish". One of the defining features of an intelligent person is the ability to realize their mistake and do something to fix it. A fool would persist in error.
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I object to the way you're defining things. "Intelligent/competent people" and "fools" are not mutually exclusive.
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You're right, I should've added a disclaimer. Of course they're not mutually exclusive, and there's no clearly defined border. I was speaking in generalisms to get the point across, but it's somewhat more complicated. Basically, I think that the worst mistakes are made by incapable people in responsible positions, something which happens all too often. Just turn on the TV and look for anything politics related. In many cases, people who get elected mostly know how to get elected, not how to run a country. They might not be idiots, getting elected is a good way to gain money, but they're usually incompetent at their job. Traits like stubborness, slow learning and inability to see their own mistakes only make this worse. An intelligent, but incompetent person would realize he isn't doing a good job and either delegate most of the responsibility to people who know how to do it, try to learn how to do it right, or resign. An incompetent fool, on the other hand would act as if nothing was wrong, and/or act like it was not his fault. That's as close to a definition as I can get.
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This may seem out of place, but I probably wouldn't care if naked pictures of me were put on the internet. I'm a guy, but still, our society is weird.
Also, blackmailing someone by threatening to distribute pictures of them naked seems unfortunately common. Ex-boy friends.
Edit:Before I'm flamed, I'm trying to say that the problem wasn't about the pictures but how everyone around her was acting because of them and that should change because it's not uncommon.
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id rather her have just picked up an assault rifle and get some good old fashioned revenge, at least then some of the people responsible would have bled to death (and some others too, after all people dont give a **** unless there is some collateral damage). murder is a good alternative to suicide.
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I am constantly surprised that the number of suicides is so high compared to the number of shootings. You'd think more people would go the murder-suicide route.
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i couldn't kill myself without a body count, a number followed by no fewer than nine zeros.
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That's a large number
If by "people like me"
Um... what I meant was neither of what you stated
I just like plotting people's demises in hilarious and/or original fashions as an exercise for my creative mind
I write short little stories occasionally too about it
I am constantly surprised that the number of suicides is so high compared to the number of shootings. You'd think more people would go the murder-suicide route.
Most likely answer is the lack of access to firearms.
A more in depth answer to your question, I shall direct at this really interesting read
http://www.pins.org.za/pins39/pins39_bkrev_cartwright.pdf
It details what makes a shooter
Excerpt from page two to which a great majority of suicides could be attributed
Most traumatized people never kill anyone
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I am constantly surprised that the number of suicides is so high compared to the number of shootings. You'd think more people would go the murder-suicide route.
Reading this thread is definitely inclining me towards the latter.
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Not really been keeping up with this, but I'm pretty darn sure this girl posted nudes on 4chan (/b/ or /soc/) looking for attention, they doxxed her, and then all hell broke loose.
I'll never say someone asked for this kind of thing, but that's a pretty stupid thing to do.
If this has already been mentioned please disregard.
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Not really been keeping up with this, but I'm pretty darn sure this girl posted nudes on 4chan (/b/ or /soc/) looking for attention, they doxxed her, and then all hell broke loose.
I'll never say someone asked for this kind of thing, but that's a pretty stupid thing to do.
If this has already been mentioned please disregard.
It was on one of those webcam chat places
Also, they fixed the whole "See more photos" error that was very apparent
Guess someone mentioned the oopsie
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Not really been keeping up with this, but I'm pretty darn sure this girl posted nudes on 4chan (/b/ or /soc/) looking for attention, they doxxed her, and then all hell broke loose.
I'll never say someone asked for this kind of thing, but that's a pretty stupid thing to do.
If this has already been mentioned please disregard.
Source required. None of the Canadian media have reported anything like what you are suggesting, nor does the girl's own account match. Her account and what the police are investigating is a single instance of flashing on webcam, screencap, and distribution of that screencap.
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Apparently somebody named "alex ramos" actually wanted to become the "second-most hated guy on the internets" (or something along those lines), by posting a (nude) autopsy picture of her on twitter. And Anonymous dox'd him.
Ow. He was an idiot, but he was also mostly harmless.
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What is this world coming to? Really, there are people who make USMC DIs all look like chivalrous gallants in comparison. I wonder, just why natural selection didn't eliminate such idiocy yet? Being this stupid should be illegal.
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Bullying people to death is not a novelty. What is novel is both the methods (social media and so on) and our global exposure to it.
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What is this world coming to? Really, there are people who make USMC DIs all look like chivalrous gallants in comparison. I wonder, just why natural selection didn't eliminate such idiocy yet? Being this stupid should be illegal.
because being a dick is a viable survival strategy, playing the victim is not.
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Still, being impolite solves nothing and is, in fact, disadvantageous. I, generally, don't like trolls and try to stay polite when possible. I don't understand why some "people" act rude and stupid for no apparent reason, and why they consider it funny. It defies all logic and serves no purpose.
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Still, being impolite solves nothing and is, in fact, disadvantageous. I, generally, don't like trolls and try to stay polite when possible. I don't understand why some "people" act rude and stupid for no apparent reason, and why they consider it funny. It defies all logic and serves no purpose.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20072_5-insignificant-things-that-determine-if-someone-likes-you.html
Read #4
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just why natural selection didn't eliminate such idiocy yet?
In a time with freely available contraceptives stupidity might be an advantage for reproduction.
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http://www.cracked.com/article_20072_5-insignificant-things-that-determine-if-someone-likes-you.html
Good read, it's indeed like that in high schools. I still can't understand why "adult people" still do that (I have a hard time considering them either adult or people, despite the generally accepted convention, hence the quotes).
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Still, being impolite solves nothing and is, in fact, disadvantageous. I, generally, don't like trolls and try to stay polite when possible. I don't understand why some "people" act rude and stupid for no apparent reason, and why they consider it funny. It defies all logic and serves no purpose.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20072_5-insignificant-things-that-determine-if-someone-likes-you.html
Read #4
Reading this article lead me to three other articles which kept me awake two hours later than expected
Not complaining. Cracked is always great to read
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Still, being impolite solves nothing and is, in fact, disadvantageous. I, generally, don't like trolls and try to stay polite when possible. I don't understand why some "people" act rude and stupid for no apparent reason, and why they consider it funny. It defies all logic and serves no purpose.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20072_5-insignificant-things-that-determine-if-someone-likes-you.html
Read #4
Reading this article lead me to three other articles which kept me awake two hours later than expected
Not complaining. Cracked is always great to read
i think i just ended up doing the same exact thing.
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It's almost like TVTropes, but fortunately not as bad. :)
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It's almost like TVTropes, but fortunately not as bad. :)
ly run.