[Mikes]

Alphas can lead Alphas if sub-Alphas (Betas?) are also willing to follow, however.  So you could have a single Alpha as long as they didn't micro-manage and just did their job (leading the other leaders as they needed it).

Which leads to a classical line organisation structure which is horribly outdated and inefficient at managing any halfway large/complex company.

I.e. the bigger the company would get ... the more layers of middle management you would need until the process of actually getting any kind of order from top to bottom or feedback from bottom to top becomes simply idiotic. That's the classic unflexible corporate leviathan that is completely unable to survive in any kind of highly competitive environment. It may work for a company with a monopoly ("work" here meaning the company would not simply die), but even then it would be incredibly inefficient by definition and suboptimal to any stakeholder.

[Thaeris]

I'd not call this as much a shortcoming of police work, or a shortcoming of educators, as much as I'd call it a shortcoming of society...

Concepts of respect and humility are somehow unpopular - why this is the case is a mystery in some regards, but quite obvious in others. A culture of respect does not mistreat others with malicious intent, and in fact strives to counteract the oppressor. Humility requires a degree of introspectiveness that forces ourselves to analyze and understand our personal natures, and combats hypocracy. Why this is obviously unpopular is due to the simple fact that it opposes pride, which acts as the justification for a bully.

When culture can shift to one of respect and humility, problems such as this case will not exist. Being that probably everyone in this thread has been bullied (myself included), I'd argue that it now becomes the role of ourselves, as members of society, to communicate those concepts within society. Laws exist as enforced morals and moral constructs within a governed body, but governments certainly have a horrible track record to teaching morals.

[redsniper]

People getting harassed for not fitting in is nothing new, but I think children harassing each other to the point that the victims kill themselves is a... more recent development. I don't like to harp on the "good old days" since a lot of things were as bad or worse in the past than they are now, but it seems like people are more openly cruel now, like being nice about anything is a weakness. Maybe it's not so much people being more cruel as it is the lines between groups being redrawn. Like in the US for the longest time, immigrants and racial minorities were acceptable outgroups to treat like ****. It still happens nowadays, but it's not nearly as socially acceptable as it used to be. So now it's like the outgroup is shifting to... I don't know, anyone who strays too far from the norm and seems like they can be bullied without repercussion. The internet makes it worse, since now people can be harassed and blackmailed anytime anywhere with a minimum of effort.

Compulsory education is totally designed to crank out people smart enough to hold a job, but not smart enough to call out the ruling class on their bull****. It's been that way since damn near forever AFAICT. Not even a conspiracy really, just most people are kept unaware of it or otherwise don't care. Internet could potentially have a big effect on this too, provided it doesn't get shut down or otherwise restricted somehow. Which everyone had been trying really hard to do the past couple of years.

Also, as an aside, prison rape shouldn't really be seen as an acceptable practice anymore. The whole "revenge" style of justice system isn't very effective and just creates repeat offenders. I'll stop there though. This should get its own thread if we really want to get into it.

[Dragon]

TBH, the whole prison system is broken. Locking people up and supporting them from the country's money sometimes actually makes their situation better (I've read about a homeless guy who comitted a minor, but costly crime each autumn, just to get locked up for about half a year and come out when it starts getting warm). The only thing it's good for is training the future criminals. There are numerous other ways of punishment which are cheaper (if you make the criminal work, he/she can even make profits for the country) and more effective. In the end, the only difference between death penalty and life imprisonment is the price (in both cases, the end result is elimination of the criminal from the society), which is much lower for a death penalty.

Compulsory education is totally designed to crank out people smart enough to hold a job, but not smart enough to call out the ruling class on their bull****. It's been that way since damn near forever AFAICT. Not even a conspiracy really, just most people are kept unaware of it or otherwise don't care. Internet could potentially have a big effect on this too, provided it doesn't get shut down or otherwise restricted somehow. Which everyone had been trying really hard to do the past couple of years.

This is mostly different from conspiracy theories by the fact nobody is hiding anything. And that's the scary part. There's no conspiracy, they are not only really trying to control you, but they don't even bother hiding it. Who needs conspiracies when the world is composed mostly of sheep, who could easily figure out the truth, but just don't care? It's a good thing there was enough people protesting against censoring the internet in one stroke, but what they can't accomplish with one bill, they'll accomplish with 1000, each chipping away a little portion of our freedom. For most people, one small change at a time is like no change at all: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2004-09-05/  (illustrates my point, but in different context)

[Mikes]

TBH, the whole prison system is broken. Locking people up and supporting them from the country's money sometimes actually makes their situation better (I've read about a homeless guy who comitted a minor, but costly crime each autumn, just to get locked up for about half a year and come out when it starts getting warm). The only thing it's good for is training the future criminals. There are numerous other ways of punishment which are cheaper (if you make the criminal work, he/she can even make profits for the country) and more effective. In the end, the only difference between death penalty and life imprisonment is the price (in both cases, the end result is elimination of the criminal from the society), which is much lower for a death penalty.

Yeah.... let's make them work in the mines.

Kidding aside... how would you make sure that the criminals actually do the work you want to assign them and what do you do if they don't? What do you do if they kill someone at their new workplace? Assign them more work? lol.

Community work is a good choice for first offenders and small offenses... but for everyone? for actual serious criminals? Really? They'd likely laugh at you and go back to their gang. (Possibly after beating you up )

[deathfun]

That's where psychological attacks come into play Mikes. Nobody likes having to lose their mind, and the thought of being put into a drug induced state vegetable won't appeal as much to the serious criminals. That and the workplace would be essentially a work camp similar to what Canada had during the Great Depression... or "Relief Camps" as we'd politely call them

On the subject of bullying, I found that getting yourself put on the watch list is highly effective at warding off people from bothering you. Wasn't a fun half of a year, but a few subtle plants and not so subtle writing on a french quiz that after I'm done school I'd come back with a shotgun, made the next four and a half years worry free.



Redsnipers comment about it being a recent thing got me looking at cases for it, when I came across this

In recent years, a series of bullying-related suicides in the US and across the globe have drawn attention to the connection between bullying and suicide. Though too many adults still see bullying as "just part of being a kid," it is a serious problem that leads to many negative effects for victims, including suicide. Many people may not realize that there is also a link between being a bully and committing suicide.

http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html

That's probably where quite a few of the issues on non-action lay in regards to not taking it seriously enough to eradicate the behaviour. Factor in parents who were bullies, probably passing that trait onto their kids, and then them onto theirs, etc.

Although, this was equally as interesting

Not just the victims were in danger: "The perpetrators who are the bullies also have an increased risk for suicidal behaviors," Kim said.

And in the same article, the same points about adults is made again

In the United States, many adults scoff at bullying and say, "Oh, that's what happens when kids are growing up,"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080717170428.htm

[redsniper]

Well, yeah. Healthy well-adjusted kids usually don't tend to be bullies. So the bullies themselves have their fair share of issues I'm sure, and then they just spread the pain around...

Prisons should focus on rehabilitation. Making prison as terrible as possible as a deterrent obviously doesn't work.

[BrotherBryon]

This is one of the few areas I can reasonably say that technology has had a negative effect. When I was young bullies could only rule people while in school, unless they lived near their victims but even then the moment the victim passed their front door they could no longer be harassed. Not the case today as the bully now has access to more avenues of attack via the internet and social media. Home no longer becomes a haven as victims can still be reached and harassed even there. So the victim is under near constant attack which wears them down faster than it would have 20 years ago. Not to mention social sites make it even easier for a bully to form and lead mob mentality attacks on their victims, rumors and falsehoods are far easier and faster to spread now that children carry phones and have access to the internet. I'm not blaming technology for the epidemic of bullying but it has made the modern bully more effective.

[z64555]

Technology is just an amplifier, garbage in, garbage out. You can apply some filtering to the garbage in, but it's far better to address the source than to try to ignore it with blinders.

[Phantom Hoover]

why am i reading this thread i was operating just fine under the illusion that hypocritical idiocy isn't the norm everywhere

[Dragon]

Yeah.... let's make them work in the mines.

Kidding aside... how would you make sure that the criminals actually do the work you want to assign them and what do you do if they don't? What do you do if they kill someone at their new workplace? Assign them more work? lol.

Community work is a good choice for first offenders and small offenses... but for everyone? for actual serious criminals? Really? They'd likely laugh at you and go back to their gang. (Possibly after beating you up )

I'm not talking "community work" like street sweeping. I'm talking heavy, exhausting, but simple work. Actual mining is a bit too advanced for this, but there are plantations where there's no way to do harvesting using machines, and I'm pretty sure that there's at least a few more jobs like this left. And the answer to escape attempts or violence would be armed overseers, who'd clobber (and if this fails, kill) prisoners that are out of line. Ah, and they should be fed based on how much they work, meaning slacking off=no food, or the worst food they serve. So yeah, basically Canadian or even Russian work camps. Or even the classic "wild west style" quarry work.

Also, very serious crimes (generally murder and rape), especially repeated offenders, should be dealt with using death penalty. There's really no point in keeping scum like that around.

Prisons should focus on rehabilitation. Making prison as terrible as possible as a deterrent obviously doesn't work.

The question is, what's there to rehabilitate? People who commit crimes because they're crazy go to mental hospitals. For people who consciously break the law for their own profit, a work camp should be enough (of course, a shrink should be available at all times). People who break the law to survive shouldn't happen, if they do, there's something wrong with the law. People who break the law accidentally pay fines or do community work in most cases. Of course, there are a few other causes for committing crimes, but I think that work camps of various degrees of severity should be able to handle that.

In recent years, a series of bullying-related suicides in the US and across the globe have drawn attention to the connection between bullying and suicide. Though too many adults still see bullying as "just part of being a kid," it is a serious problem that leads to many negative effects for victims, including suicide. Many people may not realize that there is also a link between being a bully and committing suicide.

This is a big part of the problem, another is that in the recent years, teachers become essentially powerless. Back in ye olde days, a teacher would take a big, wooden ruler, or a belt, and knock some sense into troublemakers. This made pupils have a modicum of respect for the teacher, and for the laws in general. I'd like to see that back, because the "modern" methods of punishment don't work on complete idiots. Also, teachers are pretty much powerless these days. If my complaints about bullying were taking effect, there would be no need to ever consider using an ax as a solution to this problem. At least in my school, if the teachers could flog those idiots in front of the whole school, they'd do that at the moment's notice.

[deathfun]

This is a big part of the problem, another is that in the recent years, teachers become essentially powerless. Back in ye olde days, a teacher would take a big, wooden ruler, or a belt, and knock some sense into troublemakers. This made pupils have a modicum of respect for the teacher, and for the laws in general. I'd like to see that back, because the "modern" methods of punishment don't work on complete idiots. Also, teachers are pretty much powerless these days. If my complaints about bullying were taking effect, there would be no need to ever consider using an ax as a solution to this problem. At least in my school, if the teachers could flog those idiots in front of the whole school, they'd do that at the moment's notice.

Indeed true on the teachers part

Afterall, one small little lip or touch on a student could mean instant lawsuit, blown out of proportion court case, and job loss. Parents don't hold their kids accountable for their own actions. They're little ****ing angels the lot of them

Despite the fact that the kid your "angel" kid was beating can no longer use his arm

Which is why I am glad that my parents never thought that way. If I screwed up, they basically told me I'm a dumbass for getting caught

[Nuke]

it is impossible for parents to be impartial when their own kids are concerned. the very act of reproduction has a way of severely altering the brain chemistry of adults (and lets not forget teenage knock-ups). i would even go as far as to consider it a form of insanity. shortly after i discovered this i was able to use that knowledge to convince my own mother to score me dope and hookers. she still thinks im the best thing since sliced bread. little does she know im going to stick her in a home/asylum as soon as she finishes going senile. in reality children are all lord of the flies. cold hearted beasts who will literally kill each other if left to their own devices. to be avoided in post apocalyptic scenarios (they would likely do you a cannibalism).

[karajorma]

Parents don't hold their kids accountable for their own actions. They're little ****ing angels the lot of them

This I suspect is the real problem. When a kid gets in trouble these days, the parents are very often straight down the school to argue that their kid can't have done anything wrong. On the other hand, if I'd gotten into trouble as a kid, my mum would have been straight down the school to find out exactly how badly she should punish me on top of whatever the school decided to dole out!

Of course, this still happened to a certain degree when I was a kid, but it's much more prevalent now. We've lost respect for teachers as professionals, often seeing them as glorified babysitters who are just there to validate our children. It's nothing to do with the lack of corporal punishment and everything to do with the fact that children know they can get away with being dicks in class because their parents won't back up the teacher's decisions.

It's actually the main reason why I'm happy to teach here in China but would never, ever, teach kids in the UK. Over here teaching is still a highly respected profession.

[deathfun]

We've lost respect for teachers as professionals, often seeing them as glorified babysitters who are just there to validate our children.

To an extent, they brought it upon themselves
http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/26/11395270-autistic-boys-father-why-hasnt-teacher-been-fired-over-bullying?lite
http://stateimpact.npr.org/indiana/2012/02/15/why-principals-dont-fire-bad-teachers-even-when-given-the-option/

Teacher's themselves are hardly held accountable for their actions, and it seems to be growing in frequency. Strikes galore where I live (students suffer because of it with school closures despite teachers being seen as ESSENTIAL SERVICES which ARE NOT ALLOWED TO STRIKE OUTRIGHT), for the most ridiculous reasons.

it is impossible for parents to be impartial when their own kids are concerned.

Pretty much.
Yet, for some reason, I keep being told that part of being an adult is maintaining control over your emotions so as not to cloud your rational thinking. This was drilled into my skull by my own parents

[NGTM-1R]

Teachers are among the least-willing to allow their professional standards and abilities to be judged. It should not be surprising that, working as hard as they have to avoid any kind of accountability as a profession, there is little respect there.

[jr2]

Let's avoid generalizations here.  First, part of being a parent is using reason as well as your emotions to do what is actually the best thing for your kid; if your child is causing trouble, validating that kind of behavior, or ignoring it, is not in his / her best interest.  It could be a sign of deeper problems or maybe even getting a little spoiled (read: rotten inside). 

If the former, investigation and care (perhaps you aren't 'being there' enough to see what's really going on or for your child to trust you enough to tell you about something terrible) are in order.

If the latter, some uncomfortable correction needs to take place (basically, reflecting a mini version of the real world back to them; i.e., if you break the rules in the real world, your freedom gets taken away from you.  You are grounded for a <day / few days / week, depending on the severity and repeat of the infraction>.

I personally believe corporal punishment is also in order if warranted.  (Esp. when they are younger... don't play with outlets.  They hurt.  Like so! <smak>. You can't hit other people just because you're angry at them.  That's unacceptable and hurts them, they feel just like you. <smak>) Although one must never use this when anger clouds reason and judgement.  If you're mad and corporal punishment is warranted, send them to their room until you regain your full senses.  Corporal punishment should be as painful to you internally as it is to them.

Some parents are good and try their best despite their imperfections, and some are the scum of the Earth who view their children as just another way to satisfy their needs / wants (money, power/influence, sometimes worse things).


Teachers are the same.  Some care for the children they teach as if they were their own and pour their heart into their profession.  Others do their job to the best of their abilities, as well they should.  And then there are the narcissists who don't care.  Children are what they have to tolerate to collect their paycheck / benefits, as well as their insurance to avoid being held accountable for the horrible job they are doing (you can't fire me!  think of the kids!), as well as of course some worse filth that take advantage of kids.



Anyways, my 2c, and, by the way, wish me luck / pray for me.  I'm a Dad! 

[Mongoose]

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of corporal punishment, but I do think it can be effective in certain situations to help a young child understand what they're doing to other people.  For instance, my one younger brother was terrible at biting people when he was a toddler.  One day he bit my mom...and my mom decided to give him a little bite back.  That pretty much stopped him for good.

[Dragon]

Below certain (mental) age, it's the only thing children would understand. And I've seen enough teenagers with mental age of 4-5 that I wouldn't be opposed to bringing ol' Loch Gelly Belts back into schools. Some "people" are too frakking dumb to understand anything else, go to school to slack off, disrupt lessons and meet with others of their kind and after school, end up in prison for vandalism or stealing. You either clobber sense into them, or live with trouble they cause. I've seen monkeys (not only apes, monkeys) and cats much smarter than these vermin.

[Phantom Hoover]

i think the real issue here is whether dragon represents a hopeless failure of our civilisation in moving beyond being smallminded idiots, or whether he is merely an isolated-enough throwback to maintain faith in humanity