Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Spoon on November 28, 2012, 08:45:03 am
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I don't tend to analyse my gaming that much, it's simply a like/dislike without wondering too much about the why.
A simple "Played it, liked it" or a "Played it, liked it 'cept for xxx" is still better than *nothing*. It takes up less than a minute of your time to post and it makes you visible for the creator as 'one of the guys on hlp that played it. Swell guy.'
I still think thread activity is an utterly irrelevant factor. Probably one of the less relevant of all. For example, I've played almost everything that was released since I joined the community plus nearly everything I could find on the wiki. Did I make review posts for them ? Hell no, I'm no native English speaker and most of the time one awesome reviewer like Spoon already said what I would have said long before I do and much better than I would have. There's a point where there's no need to repeat what's been said. If you start demanding that each guy playing your mod go post in a thread, you're gonna have a bad time.
If you want more relevant numbers, you'd want downloads numbers. I need to bug achtung to see if there's a way to track DL numbers on FSMods...
You are badly missing the point, Matth.
Download numbers are just that, numbers. Usable for epeen comparison or what? Reread Axem's post again.
Thread activity is a very relevant factor.
Hell no, I'm no native English speaker and most of the time one awesome reviewer like Spoon already said what I would have said long before I do and much better than I would have. There's a point where there's no need to repeat what's been said.
There is plenty of reason to repeat what has been said before.
For example poster A says: "The missiles in this mod are bloody ****ing useless"
Poster B in response says: "Your face is bloody ****ing useless, l2p"
What the creator of the mod sees: "Hmmm, one guy has issues with the missiles. One guy doesn't. If only I had more feedback on this, I could maybe alter some of the missiles stats for the next release."
Meanwhile, poster C and D are in silent agreement with poster A but don't post because they don't want to repeat what's been said.
Poster A says: "I really liked this feature!"
Poster B and C says nothing, why mimic what has just been said?
What the creator of the mod sees: "Hmmm, only one guy makes mention of that feature... Guess it wasn't really worth the weeks of effort to implement it."
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You are badly missing the point, Matth.
I don't think he is. I write stories and post them online. When a new chapter goes up, it's not uncommon to see up to four hundred hits that day and for five to six days after you get about one hundred and twenty-five a day. Then it's down to maybe twenty for a couple months and then a tiny trickle of two or three every couple of days.
Of that, four people will offer comment per chapter on average, most of them being repeat offenders in that department. Another four on average will watchlist the story, favorite it, or both. One person will reply to your reply to their review, sometimes. That's it. (And I've seen a chapter generate 2000 individual IP address hits on the first day and nobody comments until two days later.)
The bottom line is that you're going to get a very limited response from the ultimate consumers and on some level you've got to accept that. People don't call up the restaurant they eat at and say "hey that was great"; they don't send thank-you notes to the designers of their favorite videogames. If anything, for the size of the community HLP is incredibly profuse in providing feedback.
EDIT: We have, what? Ten thousand total members? I have no idea what the demographic breakdown is but I can't imagine more than couple thousand are currently actively visiting. Accounting for the fact that not everything will interest everyone, and a noticeable fraction of the people visiting here aren't likely to be interested in work that's not Diaspora you're left with...maybe five hundred people who could actually leave a comment on an individual project with ease? Getting seventy is something of an accomplishment by that standard.
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I don't even see what you are trying to argue here?
We're saying: "Feedback, reviews and comments are motivational (aka thread activity)"
You are saying: "Well you are WRONG, thread activity is IRRELEVANT" :wtf:
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I don't even see what you are trying to argue here?
I'm arguing that if you're doing this for someone's approval, then as in most things in life, you are doing it wrong.
Also I'm arguing that the fact you think download statistics are irrelevant is pretty goddamn stupid because it's the most reliable indicator of how many people were actually interested. People can post in threads for crap they've never played with ease; but they've got to get the vps or the mission files to actually play it. You are never going to get more than a tiny fraction of the public to say they're interested to you. (Much less why. Jesus Christ, don't let me start on getting people to say why.) At some point you're going to have to accept that and gauge interest by other measures, whether it's your hit counter or your download numbers.
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As a professional creator myself, I'd say that while your sentiment is noble, NG (I also like to think I create things that I personally approve of, that are "for me" and so on), it's undeniable we are social animals and after such a crappy lenghty after hours work to get **** done, it's really not at all inspiring to get feedback like "meh, that was okay I guess" or smth. It might not be rational to expect appraisal, but that's nevertheless what you want, what you aspire to, and you do feel disappointed and frustrated if you don't get it.
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Wow. Well I couldn't disagree with you more on this. And here I was thinking I was cynical as ****. Glad to see there is still bigger fish around.
I'm arguing that if you're doing this for someone's approval, then as in most things in life, you are doing it wrong.
No U.
Really, what a dumb statement.
All of these mods are being done for absolutely free. This isn't a restaurant where you pay to get food. We modders don't get anything out of this aside from the joy of creating something cool and then the joy of seeing people enjoy playing what we've created and talking about it. If you take away that last part then you might as well not release anything at all. Since according to you, we're doing it wrong. Might as well masturbate and keep it to ourselves.
Also I'm arguing that the fact you think download statistics are irrelevant is pretty goddamn stupid because it's the most reliable indicator of how many people were actually interested.
And I think your idea about only caring about some download number is pretty ****tard stupid.
If I were to release something tomorrow that would get 100.000 downloads but not a single comment/feedback/review/whatever posted. I would quit the day after. Cause all I would have to show for my effort is the meaningless number '100.000'.
People can post in threads for crap they've never played with ease; but they've got to get the vps or the mission files to actually play it. You are never going to get more than a tiny fraction of the public to say they're interested to you. At some point you're going to have to accept that and gauge interest by other measures, whether it's your hit counter or your download numbers.
See what I said above.
I'll never ever accept your view on this.
You keep writing for your hit counter if that what drives you. But that would never motivate me ever.
WoD may have gotten around 1000-1500 downloads or something maybe 2000. I'm not completely sure. Who I am grateful to are the people that have taken enough of an interest to post in the WoD forums. Provided me with the joy of seeing silly discussions about Cyrvan biology or reading the cool review that bigchunk1 wrote back in the day. It's the kind of stuff that made the effort put into it feel worthwhile. And while it's cool that those 1450 other people took an interest. They are nothing more than a number on my download counter to me.
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If I were to release something tomorrow that would get 100.000 downloads but not a single comment/feedback/review/whatever posted. I would quit the day after. Cause all I would have to show for my effort is the meaningless number '100.000'.
As opposed to the meaningless number of thread replies Axem cited as a problem? (And how many actual individual people posted in those threads, I wonder? Probably significantly lower than the number of replies in the threads, since there will be replies and conversations and the person who released will post as well.)
If that is truly your mind, you are welcome to do so. But it also means that a goodly number of people, even allowing for a really ****ty host and really dedicated efforts to download it probably above ten thousand people, wanted to try playing what you made. Apparently their opinion simply doesn't count as far as you are concerned. That is far more cynical than any possible citation of observed evidence.
I write because I enjoy writing first; I share it because I think someone else might enjoy it as well. I'd keep posting new chapters if the hit counter was zero. (I pretty much did, when it came to writing IAR.) In fact I only looked at it for the first time in four months and seven or eight chapter releases for different works just for purposes of this discussion. So make up whatever bull**** you want about me personally, but keep in mind it's bull****.
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The discussions surrounding a creation are what motivates me as a creator. I am with Spoon on this one, if 10 people play something I was involved in and are interested enough in it that they feel the need to discuss it, that's more valuable to me than a number of total downloads.
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The discussions surrounding a creation are what motivates me as a creator. I am with Spoon on this one, if 10 people play something I was involved in and are interested enough in it that they feel the need to discuss it, that's more valuable to me than a number of total downloads.
agreed
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The discussions surrounding a creation are what motivates me as a creator. I am with Spoon on this one, if 10 people play something I was involved in and are interested enough in it that they feel the need to discuss it, that's more valuable to me than a number of total downloads.
That's fine. I don't disagree with that as a motivation to work. Although it's pretty neutral. (If they discussed why it was bad only, what happens?)
But acting as if the download counter doesn't mean a damn thing is pretty much incomprehensible. They didn't all accidentally click except for the ones who posted; a lot of them wanted whatever was in that download, and dismissing that as a measure of your success with the audience, especially after building up a record of releases so people have an idea of what they'll get, is bizarre and wrong.
EDIT: And if you're really not looking for reasons to get motivated so much that you'll dismiss an obvious sign people wanted your work, there's something...unhealthy about your desire to keep working; almost masochistic. I don't watch the hit counter much but it still makes me happy to see it go up. I don't see many reviews, but I still like getting them.
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Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se. You want human feedback. Qualitatitve feedback, not quantitative. Hell, one single intelligent appraisal from someone you respect is worth thousands of meaningless download clicks.
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Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se.
Numbers without context.
A download count has context. Someone acted here, deliberately did something. You might as well say that voting tallies are cold and meaningless.
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Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se. You want human feedback. Qualitatitve feedback, not quantitative. Hell, one single intelligent appraisal from someone you respect is worth thousands of meaningless download clicks.
Yup.
Problem is, NG, numbers are cold and meaningless per se.
Numbers without context.
A download count has context. Someone acted here, deliberately did something. You might as well say that voting tallies are cold and meaningless.
It's funny that you dismiss thread reply numbers as 'meaningless' and then you post this.
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This is the HLPest thread. Well-intentioned debate on how to make major content creators feel better derailed by semantic argument about the philosophy of artistic satisfaction. Gonna print and frame
e for content: I still believe the best thing we can do is foster a culture of pluralistic, heterodox appreciation - in-depth, thoughtful posts even when something didn't really work for you, and a recognition of how the campaign in question advances and speaks to others in the medium. The BP forum thrives on its excellent, thoughtful posters, and I've tried to bring some of that to other campaigns via that one thread. Having someone think in depth about your campaign makes it worth it like nothing else.
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It's funny that you dismiss thread reply numbers as 'meaningless' and then you post this.
It's funny you're outright lying about the fact that the reply numbers being meaningless was a mockery of your idea that download counts are meaningless
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I thought of making a funny, saying that if you regard modding as an election process, then you are doing it wrong, but I think that perhaps the discussion is just prolonging itself to some silly extremes...
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It's funny that you dismiss thread reply numbers as 'meaningless' and then you post this.
It's funny you're outright lying about the fact that the reply numbers being meaningless was a mockery of your idea that download counts are meaningless
Holy **** dude, what the ****
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Holy **** dude, what the ****
You have another way to take his comment?
I mean if he's completely unwilling to try and follow internal logic in the series of posts that doesn't reflect great on him either, but he's smart enough to do so, and I like to assume he's serious enough about the argument to try.
I really do respect Spoon (probably obvious from the cheerleading commentary earlier) but he can get stuck in a snit too.
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I often respect your points but you really need some debate settings other than 'escalate, ES-CA-LATE'
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I often respect your points but you really need some debate settings other than 'escalate, ES-CA-LATE'
I think that's what my second reply to him was. (No seriously, I really did try to be significantly less offensive than his post.)
It apparently didn't work if he's just going to out-of-context driveby.
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Maybe we could proceed from my suggestion above re: critical culture instead of instructing people how to be satisfied, I think that would go more useful places(http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-shobon.gif)
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It's funny that you dismiss thread reply numbers as 'meaningless' and then you post this.
It's funny you're outright lying about the fact that the reply numbers being meaningless was a mockery of your idea that download counts are meaningless
...
Wat?
Edit: Last time I checked you discarded reply count as meaningless and the wrong way to get motivated.
I replied that I think that its not meaningless at all and that the download number is in motivational factor terms, mostly meaningless to me.
I am completely missing this mockery on your part and especially the part where I am supposedly lying about things.
Holy **** dude, what the ****
Yeah. This.
You have another way to take his comment?
I mean if he's completely unwilling to try and follow internal logic in the series of posts that doesn't reflect great on him either, but he's smart enough to do so, and I like to assume he's serious enough about the argument to try.
I really do respect Spoon (probably obvious from the cheerleading commentary earlier) but he can get stuck in a snit too.
Yeah no. Sorry but you lost me.
This is the HLPest thread. Well-intentioned debate on how to make major content creators feel better derailed by semantic argument about the philosophy of artistic satisfaction. Gonna print and frame
e for content: I still believe the best thing we can do is foster a culture of pluralistic, heterodox appreciation - in-depth, thoughtful posts even when something didn't really work for you, and a recognition of how the campaign in question advances and speaks to others in the medium. The BP forum thrives on its excellent, thoughtful posters, and I've tried to bring some of that to other campaigns via that one thread. Having someone think in depth about your campaign makes it worth it like nothing else.
Yes.
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Perhaps the single best thing it could be done was to repair the open instaler. Last time I tried to get people into these things, I couldn't bring myself to tell them "go search the wiki and the thousands of threads and replies to see how you should install these things". I actually promised them to copy them a full folder structure, after they buying the game and so on. That was insane, I thought. And they did as well. That's probably what is choking the community the most of new interested people, as it has been years since the installer worked properly.
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Yeah I completely agree. Of course GOOOOOBEERRRRRRRR was supposed to have a new one done by now *shakes fist*
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Yep. I was going to spend Thanksgiving doing that, but that got derailed by travel. :sigh:
Also, I just did some thread splitting.
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I'm just kind of baffled that anyone wouldn't want to count all their victories, lurker or poster. You're not going to reach everyone as deeply as you do some, or in the same way every time. Only counting one form of engaging with your work isn't going to help you want to keep working, and if you don't want all possible reasons to keep doing something for fun, how much fun are you actually having doing it?
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I'm just kind of baffled that anyone wouldn't want to count all their victories, lurker or poster. You're not going to reach everyone as deeply as you do some, or in the same way every time. Only counting one form of engaging with your work isn't going to help you want to keep working, and if you don't want all possible reasons to keep doing something for fun, how much fun are you actually having doing it?
Downloading isn't engaging the work, it's consuming it. I'd rather people engage my work via discussion, LPs, or whatever else. My two cents.
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If we're down to semantics that's kind of a crappy argument. This isn't, again, a zero-sum problem. (And honestly only counting those who react the way you want them to is kind of a dick thing to be doing.) If you refuse to have all the enjoyment possible out of something and nobody's gonna get hurt by it, why aren't you doing something you enjoy fully?
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*yawn*
Ok, well the semantics are important in this case. Several of us have said that we find it more motivating when people engage (talk back, respond, take futher action, get into the story) our work, specifically on the forums. You are arguing that we should be motivated by a generic number (because it's never accurate) of faceless people who may or may not have enjoyed our work. All I know is they downloaded it. Great, they were at least interested enough to do that, but I have no way to know anything beyond that. I've certainly downloaded several mods with intention to play and haven't. So that's one count for those mods that doesn't count.
If you are motivated by that number, great. I'm not. Several others aren't. And despite what you say/think/believe, that isn't wrong of us. It's simply different.
Ready... ESCALATE.
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(http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/_TKpyCQOKlU/hqdefault.jpg)
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All I know is they downloaded it. Great, they were at least interested enough to do that, but I have no way to know anything beyond that. I've certainly downloaded several mods with intention to play and haven't. So that's one count for those mods that doesn't count.
If you are motivated by that number, great. I'm not. Several others aren't. [...]That isn't wrong of us. It's simply different.
I was gonna say this, too.
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And despite what you say/think/believe, that isn't wrong of us. It's simply different.
Nothing is ever simply different. There is method in difference. That has meaning and frequently can be evaluated objectively. One might not be able to back out of it, but I don't think I'm staging an assault on something that core to your character here.
From my perspective:
You're arguing that not wanting to be as happy as possible with your efforts is, well, good for you. And your efforts.
Or/and that certain people's responses, because they're not in an acceptable format to you, do not count.
The first one is kinda troubling in itself. It's probably demonstrably untrue, but leave that aside for the moment. There aren't too many people who don't want to be happy, no matter how ****ed up you or I might find their particular version of what makes happiness. Why, exactly, do you resist this particular metric as addition to the others? What sort of threat do you see in it, if any? And if no threat, why resist it when it will only add to things rather than replacing any (or in other words, why are you even arguing with me then)? It's not like the written word about your works produces infallible truth and happiness (go check out Lorric's ability to derail things and piss off Spoon in the WoD forum, if you want a concrete though extreme example). No source of data is completely untainted here so dismissing one for being tainted at all is ridiculous.
The second is, as noted, kind of a dickish thing to do in general. It's also rejecting opinions based on the format they come in, which is fallacy of its own. (Thieves who tell you not to steal are not wrong.) And you can't protest that you don't know that opinion, because you do at the moment they clicked the button. If nothing else, it tells you that you can pitch the idea really well. If in a series, it tells you significantly more than that (as already stated). It's also just a hop skip and a jump towards (or away from) rejecting opinions because you don't like them in general...and at that point you start rejecting criticism and that's a something most of us will struggle all our lives to try and keep from doing. Backing away from routes to it is something we should be eager to do if we value our work being of quality.
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That's pretty bold to straight up say that the way I tend to be motivated is wrong... and I think you know that. So I'm going to assume now, that you are arguing to win rather than just discussing. I will not be responding to you from this point on. I know myself, and I know what motivates me. Your belief here can't change my opinion or how I'm motivated. We aren't discussing objective facts, as much as you'd like it to be.
EDIT: I would like to add that you are really making yourself look silly by trying to prove non-object opinions wrong using logic and fact. Why can't you just accept our opinions as different?
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Because he rejects your reality and substitutes his own.
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A big problem that I see with going by only download count is that a download without any comment is worse than no download at all, and much worse than getting some sort of actual feedback from the person downloading.
-If nobody downloads, you tell yourself, "Well, nobody played it, so I'll just have to make something bigger and better, and advertise it a little more."
-If somebody downloads, and says they like it, you think, "Yay! Somebody played it and likes what I did! I will make more, and see if I can do even better!"
-If somebody downloads and says they dislike it, you can still think, "Well, at least somebody cared enough to actually play it, and say something. What did they dislike? What can I improve?"
-If somebody downloads, but doesn't comment, what can you think? You have no way to know if anybody actually used it or not, and certainly nobody cared. Could you imagine what it would feel like to see 1000 downloads but not to know if anybody even played?
I released a mission in March 2011. It was downloaded 36 times (yay!). As far as I know, only 4 people played it (still, yay!). The response was... mixed. But that was more than enough to motivate me to improve it and try again. If nobody bothered to say anything at all, I would have given up completely.
Sure, some people are able to make things and learn things purely for their own benefit, but most of us aren't like that. If we do something or learn something we think is cool, we'll want to share it, and hope that other people will think it's cool too.
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I think everyone's looking at this wrong, and nobody should be wrong because everyone is right. It's great to hear feedback about your work, especially positive ones. And if they motivate you all to work harder, who is to say that you're doing it wrong? But NGTM-1R has a point as well. It is undeniable that there is a silent majority no matter what the product is. The restaurant analogy is useful in that most HLPers will not comment on anything unless they have problems with installing or with the game. Something to note here is that we have a lot of regulars, so we also have a lot of positive remarks from them. However if the silent majority ever decides to not be silent, then the comment you'd expect from them would be negative, right? And is there a minimum number of comments you'd like in your thread before you're satisfied, or is it relative to other mods? Is it relative to the download count?
And another comment made either in this thread or the other one struck me. Not everyone would play your work if they're not interested in the genre, and expecting even the regulars to comment on those is not a smart way of looking at things. So if you made an anime-based mod and expect people who came here for FreeSpace to play it and enjoy it, then I do think you're expecting too much. Now that is not to say that FreeSpace players hate anime or are critical of mods in different genres. The numbers of comments, contents (2 finished anime-inspired mods with 1 more in the work!), critiques, and the like show that there are lots of people willing to try new things as well. JAD, Antagonist, Windmills, Sync, Transcend, and Blue Planet show that HLPers do enjoy different styles of playing a game even within/out the Freespace universe.
Four months ago, would any content creators have considered quitting because of the lack of comments? Is it because of that one thread that Gen FS has become so negative? I don't see HLP going away any time soon just like I don't see any of you guys going away either. With the number of non-FSO boards, non-FS mods, and the release of Diaspora, I think the demographic of HLP will change to ensure that everything is played and commented as often as you'd like.
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So how do we pronounce this one? "H-L-P-est," or "H-L-Pest"? :p
This discussion kind of turned into a real cluster**** (thank God for splits), but I think there are a few decent points in it. I can see how most content creators would value in-depth feedback above any other metrics, as it both confirms that their work was valued and provides suggestions as to what worked and what didn't. However, I do think there's inherent value in the metric of download counts as well. I don't think NGTM-1R was saying it should be the only metric one looks at, and I personally wouldn't consider it the most important one myself, but it does give at least some level of feedback. Most of the campaign/mod releases here are dozens, if not hundreds of MB in size. People aren't going to download something that size by accident; it's not just some picture of a cat asking if he can has cheezburger. If someone downloads your mod, the odds are good that they're interested in playing it, even if they might not do so right away. I know I have several things lying around that I've downloaded and haven't played, but I also know that I will play every single one of them at some point.
And this is what I get for having this sit in a tab for hours, since Syphe said everything I did and then some. :p
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When did everyone become so cynical anyway (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70709.msg1398409#msg1398409)? :p
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e: guess i shouldn't speak ill of the departed
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Last time I tried to get people into these things, I couldn't bring myself to tell them "go search the wiki and the thousands of threads and replies to see how you should install these things".
Whichever way you feel about it, with an easy install package you will get more players, and while a lot of them will probably just click download, I'm willing to bet a number of them will want to talk about what they're playing.
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Again, another reason for pimping the TCs first.
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My two cents on this: Spoon, you are basically saying "if you don't go and comment in my thread then I'll stop modding because I'm not motivated".
That.
Is.
Retarded.
Last time I checked, the player base hasn't pledged to be at the service of the great, mighty Spoon. You simply can't force people to go and post after playing your campaign if they feel they have nothing to say that hasn't been said before. That doesn't mean they didn't enjoy your campaign. That just mean they have nothing more to say about it. Not everyone is a skilled reviewer nor has time to spend on fan wankery. You need to wake up, Spoon.
If you need player comments that much to fuel your ego, I suggest you seek professional help, if you know what I mean.
EDIT: and Spoon, before you answer: "that's not at all what I said, you are misinterpreting completely", I'm gonna answer: that's maybe not what you wanted to say, but that's definitely what I'm reading in your posts so far.
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What.
Can we please stop calling people dumb or stupid for their way of measuring the success of their work?
I assume Spoon is doing what he does because he has an innate desire to entertain people, a message he feels he needs to put in front of an audience. The feedback he gets is his reward, the people saying "I enjoyed this thing you made because you really nailed X" or "I think Y could be handled better by doing Z, for reasons of A" are the reason why he does what he does.
If this feedback is not present, if all there is is a number of downloads but no discussion of the experience the players had, then what conclusion is a content creator to draw? What lesson is there to learn?
And no, of course you can't force people to leave feedback. But neither can you force a creator to stay motivated if there is no indication that his message, whatever it may be, has been received.
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I am not denying that, what I am denying is that he feels entitled to receive this feedback no matter what. You can't FORCE players to give feedback. That's not how the real world work. We are not an ego-reinforcing factory.
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Then I would say that you are severely misunderstanding what Spoon and others have said.
Spoon being frustrated with the lack of feedback has nothing at all to do with wanting to force people to leave their comments.
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I have pre-emptively answered to that. See my post above.
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Oh, I am sorry for not thinking that "This may not be what you wanted to say, but it is what I understood" is a good reason for calling people stupid.
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It's as good a reason as making the whole playerbase responsible for one's lack of motivation because we didn't want to spend half our time feeding his ego.
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At this point, I would like to refer you to the first post in this thread, which is Spoon's preemptive answer to what you are saying here.
Also, hyperbole much?
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Hey, I can play the reductio ad absurdum game too.
MatthTheGeek is really trying to say that we should lock all release threads because replies don't matter and we don't want to put people in a position where they think they need to reply. :)
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Hey MatthTheGeek, ignoring the rest of your absurdity for a moment, was I wrong in understanding your reasons for quitting BP Homeworld were:
1. Nobody is playing HW2 anymore so it feels pointless to continue?
2. Nobody is modding HW2 anymore so it feels pointless to continue?
Cause I sure understood these to be your reasons for quitting BP Homeworld.
Yeah, officially "indefinitely put on hold" until either I get a massive amount of players wishing for me to continue, or get a massive amount of motivation to continue by myself.
The HW2 community is kinda dead and I'd rather focus on modding projects on the Freespace side, where there will actually be people playing my stuff :/
Oh yeah. Sure looks that way!
I wonder how motivated you would have been to continued if your demo release thread had 20 pages of replies instead.
Now to reply to your absurdity...
Nah actually I've got nothing to say, I can't even take these last posts of yours serious in the slightest. You are basically just saying that Axem, The E, Battuta, Mjn.mixael, Luis Dias and me are all retarded and need professional help for wanting people to engage with their work.
You just created a strawman and attacked it full force with personal insults. If you've got nothing to say, don't post.
Edit: Oh and before you reply Matth, you should really do something about that reading comprehension of yours.
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HLP could probably create an official developers' ****ed-up-days diary thread so every single modder can vent their own frustrations away, either with the campaigns, ships, models, scripts, etc., or with the lack of feedback and so on, with the benefit of having it forbidden to have other people criticizing back "yeah you were stoopid coz u suck at this ya know".
Because having to endure this meta-conversation of how one should be more like Matth or NG or me or whatever is really making my face hurt from so much palming.
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And Batts says I escalate. Jesus.
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Enough, everyone, please. Go outside and take some breaths of fresh air then go back to the point of the thread - sans-fighting.
Thanks :)
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Enough, everyone, please. Go outside and take some breaths of fresh air then go back to the point of the thread - sans-fighting.
Thanks :)
The point of the thread right now is telling Matth that
1. He shouldn't be doing personal attacks.
2. He shouldn't create strawmans
3. He should read better
Putting a lid on a boiling pot is bad moderating.
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The comment was directed to all involved, Spoon, but if you're a boiling pot then that is precisely why you should step away from your computer, turn off your web browser, go for a walk or whatever it takes to stop boiling.
Because I promise that if you all can't play nicely on what is ultimately a gaming forum - you'll be excluded until you've cooled off forcefully. I haven't the time nor inclination to negotiate when you could calm down for yourself.
So - a little self control please and step away from the topic until you lose the need to argue heatedly? Thanks.
(And in the interests of fairness, this goes for anyone else who feels the need to boil-over right now)...
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You can't compare HW2 modding and FSO. HW2 is dead. FSO is flourishing.
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You can't compare HW2 modding and FSO. HW2 is dead. FSO is flourishing.
Haha oh wow. You can't be serious.
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This thread has received multiple Moderation reports, it seems everyone thinks everyone else is doing it wrong.
In light of this, I'll ask everyone to calm down., from what I've read there are valid points being made on both sides, so let's debate those instead of calling each other names?
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I feel rather like aldo used to when he was on the same side of an issue as Kazan. The problem is I'm not sure who's being Kazan here, if it's worthwhile to try and salvage this discussion, and whether any of the current participants are actually willing to attempt substantial contribution.
Also this should probably have gone to GenDisc by now.
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Calming down would be great. With that said, HLP should make the r-word pledge (http://www.r-word.org/Default.aspx).
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If someone is working on something and he thinks it's awesome, let him work. No matter if it's HW2 mod or FSO mod. We're making mods not only for people, but also for our own satisfaction. Modders should be partners, 'We're all riding in the same cart' [polish proverb, I'm not sure if it's working in english :P].
Stop personal attacks, let people work, and go for some beer guys. I can't find the reason, why this thread is still open.
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'We're all riding in the same cart'
"We're all in this boat together." works :p
the only thing i have to say on the topic at hand, goddamnit folks, stop acting like kids. Who the **** do you think we are making all our initial mods? Someone else? NO! First and foremost we are making the mods for OUR glorious asses. We all do it initially for that glorious statisfaction of seeing something done. For myself, i can say, the most joy i've had was actually discussing things with other people, tossing around ideas, solutions, screw ups, retarded banter and other related hilarity. I think it was pretty much the same for MatthTheGeek while he was working on HW:BP, the release was more like forgetting to put a dot on the i in the end and getting around to it. Whilst i would love and like to flame, **** it, aint worth it.
also, i wanted to address one more thing, the expected "player base"... i've seen the sort of "interest" TAP raised around, or rather, "What interest?". I could've stopped then and there and called it a day with the project. I didnt. Why? Count stupid relentless refusal to quit and call it a day.
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Well, r-word pledge did not succeed. :sigh:
After rereading the last page onward, it has come to my attention that everyone is in agreement, and everyone is misunderstanding what the "other side" is saying.
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The sad part is that this thread only exists to keep the usual bull**** out of the other thread, which isn't exactly something we should be proud of. :p
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The sad part is that this thread only exists to keep the usual bull**** out of the other thread, which isn't exactly something we should be proud. of. :p
makes for good reading though :p
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(go check out Lorric's ability to derail things and piss off Spoon in the WoD forum, if you want a concrete though extreme example)
Excuse me.
From what Spoon says, I gave him what he desires the most:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=79476.msg1657258#msg1657258
Read down, something happened to the original post, which I have rectified.
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Do I need to come in here with some clicky-clicky and give people some f'ing time off?
Discuss or debate the issues, but lay off on the personal crap or take it to PERSONAL messaging where it belongs, m'kay? Cause seriously. 4 Moderation reports on this thread alone chafes me in places you don't want to know about.
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O Hai! What did I miss?
*reads through whole thread*
:nono:
What the hell is wrong with you people! While I am in utter disagreement with NG and Math simply because it is really motivational and inspiring when people take the time to write reviews, post critiques and even when they openly "flame-review" (that's what I call it) when I release stuff (Source maps, in my case). It really feels like there is someone who actually cares about what you take the time and effort to do.
That being said, if you'd notice, I don't post reviews around here as well, simply because I have very little time to spare to write a full fledged review. I try to show my interest in said mod by participating in other discussions, activities, etc. So, I don't think its fair to force someone to write a review, but calling people dumb and stupid because they get motivated by people showing active interest is not morally sound in the least.
______________________________________________________________ __________________________
All that being said, ever since I've been here on HLP, I've had tremendous respect for most of you guys, considering y'all many levels above me. But, I never expected to see you'all going down to such new lows on a matter of basically self-preference.
Just my two cents.
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Thanks for the constructive sanctimony bro
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Thanks for the constructive sanctimony bro
Ahah oh buckle up here we go again!
(http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs3/3530221_o.gif)
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Well this thread is clearly the Bad Thread
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Thanks for the constructive sanctimony bro
Ahah oh buckle up here we go again!
(http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs3/3530221_o.gif)
Thanks for epic gif bro...
*takes popcorn and watches it over and over again* :lol:
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I don't think people should get involved in this discussion unless they have something constructive to add.
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I don't think people should get involved in this discussion unless they have something constructive to add.
Well, that goes to everyone's direction, you included I might guess. Although to be fair, I really do not know exactly what is this thread about anymore, other than a plea for more feedback from all the downloaders of modder produced goodies*. About that, I may personally change my attitude and so on, but there's little more one can do.
* the wording is strange
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I don't think people should get involved in this discussion unless they have something constructive to add.
Although to be fair, I really do not know exactly what is this thread about anymore, other than a plea for more feedback from all the downloaders of modder produced goodies*. About that, I may personally change my attitude and so on, but there's little more one can do.
* the wording is strange
Same here actually, this thread is kinda dragging on for too long, lost its meaning along the way.
sorry for acting like a noob...
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/me sighs and engages the first click
I really don't want to engage the second click, so can we all just take a moment and breathe here? Thanks.