Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: karajorma on January 02, 2013, 08:20:11 am
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So I seem to be in the position of needing a new main PC and need some recommendations.
1) I need a laptop. I change jobs somewhat often and may move hundreds if not thousands of kilometres mostly using trains when I do so. I certainly can't be lugging an entire desktop with me. If I ever leave China I don't fancy the idea of being without a PC for however long it takes them to ship it to the UK. A laptop also has the nice advantage of surviving the occasional power cut without the need for a UPS.
2) Size of the laptop is fairly important. Bigger the better as although I need something can move, I tend to only move my laptop a few times a year and I have a much smaller one for the times I need to be mobile. My current system has a 16" widescreen so that size or bigger would be nice. I'm definitely not interested in going below 15"
3) This is going to be my main PC and it's doubtful I'll have the cash to upgrade for several years. So it has to still be capable of running FSO in debug mode in 3-4 years time. I have the cash to splurge now but if I don't spend it soon(ish) I'll spend it on wine, women and song anyway. :p
4) Since FSO is CPU limited (especially on Debug) more CPU power seems to be vital. A good graphics card is also a must. Lots of memory would be nice. HD space is fairly low on the list of priorities. I have external drives for much of my data so the internal one is just for installing games and programs. I have an external DVD drive so I can totally skimp on that feature.
5) I'll either be buying the machine in the UK (within a few weeks) or China (now or in a month from now). So links to US sites are useful as background info only.
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I got an HP EliteBook 8570w (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_EliteBook) recently, and am quite happy with it. It's my second HP 'mobile workstation' laptop, and so far (4.5 yrs) I never ran into any hardware troubles - they're quality builds. (As opposed to my brother's HP Envy, which constantly overheats when gaming.)
Of course, the quality comes at a price, but then again the machine may well last twice as long as a consumer-level laptop would. Depends on what you're looking for in a machine.
Specs are customizable to a certain extent, but here's mine:
CPU: Intel i7-3610M (Ivy Bridge: 22nm), quad-core with hyperthreading. 2.3 GHz, 6MB Cache
SCREEN: 15.6", 1920 x 1080
GPU: NVidia Quadro K1000M, 2GB DDR3, 192 CUDA cores. OpenGL 4.1.
RAM: 2x4GB DDR3 @ 1600 MHz
CAM: 720p HD built-in
HDD: 500 GB, 7200 rpm
DVD: DVD+/-RW
Oh, and they still come with Windows 7 according to the HP site. Which you may or may not find a good thing :)
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I'd like to second the recommendation of an HP Elitebook. I don't have any specific examples, but the professional-grade HPs tend to have a very good record.
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Check out https://www.system76.com/
Big, powerful, runs FSO just fine, and if you've never run Linux before, I think you'll find it quite refreshing. Great development platform. Of course, you didn't mention any price limitation, so I'm assuming money is no object...
Come to think of it, I think I'll try saving up for one myself. (It's only $3,000...)
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You can also try looking at Sager's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sager_Notebook_Computers) laptops, which System76 seems to be a rebrand of. Check out their gaming laptop section.
http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=category_browse&selected_cat=11
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I'm absolutely not switching to Linux on my main desktop machine. And I think $3000 might be a little out of my budget even if I am willing to splurge a bit.
If I'm buying mail order though I'd have to get them to ship to China, not the UK unless they have a UK branch. I have no intention of buying a computer and having it delivered the day after I have to leave to go back to China. :p
Since responses have been slow, maybe I should ask what are the minimum specs I should be looking at for a laptop that won't quickly get out of date?
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Come on Kara, you don't know the answer to that one?
You should aim for at least 8 GB, i7, a good graphic chipset, etc. Watch out for heat-loving laptops that will burn your machine to smithereens (I learned that the hard way... ). That's the biggest problem. And battery. You might think that 3 hours is enough, but then that degrades and you can really wreck your computer if you keep it plugged in to the wall while with the battery (yeah I know). Check the forums on the internet where they discuss these things at lenght.
Oh and avoid HP cheap models like previously said. My two cents.
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Come on Kara, you don't know the answer to that one?
Actually I don't. I decided long ago that trying to keep up to date with which hardware is current is a losing battle since I simply don't have the time to keep up to date. Trying to find the answers on the internet is useless as there are simply too many sites dedicated to the subject and many of them are full of screaming dickwads (or worse, dickwads who aren't currently screaming and therefore don't give themselves away).
So when I buy hardware I ask someone who does know. Cause there are plenty of people on HLP who do care about hardware and do know these things.
You should aim for at least 8 GB, i7, a good graphic chipset, etc.
You've basically told me the real basics anyone would know and managed to miss out any of the useful information I wanted. What is a good graphics chipset these days? Which i7? Are the more expensive models worth the extra cash? Would it be better to simply spend the money on 16GB rather than a slightly faster CPU.
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Sorry then I won't be much of an help. However, just to say that those final questions are not universal. It entirely depends on what you use the computer. For instance, I use programs that usually cross the 5GB barrier of memory size, while my CPU use isn't that important. You'd guess where I'd invest there. But gather this simple advice: do not underestimate the quality build. It is like 100x more important in laptops than in desktops (where we can just add stuff we choose).
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Which i7? Are the more expensive models worth the extra cash? Would it be better to simply spend the money on 16GB rather than a slightly faster CPU.
I would suggest that you monitor your current computer's resource usage during common resource-intensive activities (for your case probably compiling and gaming, and possibly more?). Is your compiler multi-threaded? In that case an i7 (with hyper-threading) may well be worth the buck. If not, an i5 may actually suffice, and save you a considerable amount of money. Keep an eye on the processor generation; for the Intel i*-series, 3rd-gen is currently the state-of-the-art. For single-thread performance, high clock speed and processor cache are desirable.
With RAM relatively cheap, capacities will probably keep going up quickly in the coming years, so chances are that programs will follow. With that in mind, 8+ GB RAM may be a good choice. But especially graphics hardware seems to be booming, so I suggest making a good future-proof investment in that department (I've been told that upgrading a laptop GPU is non-trivial). As for which manufacturer, FSO players with AMD cards seem to have driver issues more often than NVidia users, so I'd go with the latter. They also have better Linux support, but that doesn't apply here.
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Buying a new laptop is a very, very tricky process because there are so many different ones and new ones being released constantly. If you start with only the specs you need, you're going to get lost. We can't really give any specific advice on models beyond, "Hey I bought this and it's great and cheap" or "I bought this and it's crappy and expensive". Or we could just pick one for you, but where's the fun in that?
So here's my advice as someone who recently purchased a couple used laptops:
1) Choose a brand of laptop first.
2) Check their website store to see what the newest released machines are, and see if any of them fit your general required specifications and price range. If they seem too expensive, go backward in release time if you can.
3) Once you've found a few models that might fit, then you can start comparing them. To figure out the specs for the processors, you can find the information charted on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Intel_processors
4) To compare the graphics cards, I'm a bit at a loss. Look for reviews on pcmag.com, tomshardware.com, and gpureview.com or anywhere else you trust.
5) To compare everything else, you can read and understand the specs yourself. Stuff like RAM, HD space, wifi, etc is easy to figure out.
6) When you've narrowed the field to fewer than 6 candidates, try to find reviews for the specific laptop models you chose, or at least the model family. See if there are any glaring issues like crazy heat, worse than expected performance, spontaneous combustion, that sort of thing. Sometimes certain models will just be unusually lousy, and the only way to know is to own one yourself or hope somebody reviewed it.
Then you can compare prices on the brand webstores, ebay, amazon, their regional equivalents, and places like newegg or similar places in the UK.
Some more detailed personal recommendations:
Brand: Toshiba or HP Pro/Elitebook
Processor: Intel i5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i5_microprocessors) or i7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i7_microprocessors), which one doesn't much matter, the specs do (though i7 might be more efficient, and is more likely to be quad-core). Check the Wikipedia pages to see their exact specs. If you want one with a dual-core, probably should get at least 2.5GHz per core. For a quad-core, you can relax a bit on that, 2.2-2.3GHz per core. Either way, they'll run a bit warm. (Sorry, I don't know AMD, so you'd have to find their wiki pages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_processors) for info)
Graphics: If you get a quad-core i7, an intelgrated GPU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units) could actually work pretty well. The i5 in my 2760p runs FS2 very well, though I haven't done any intensive missions yet. Check the reviews and specs for whichever discrete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Nvidia_graphics_processing_units) card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units) is offered.
Memory: At least 6GB, 8-12 is better of course, but most machines you can add the rest if there's RAM slots open. That should be information on the computer specs page.
HD: You'd know best. 160GB at bare minimum, 320GB better, and so on...
Other features: good built-in wifi is so common in every single new machine, you almost don't have to check. You need 802.11 g/n at least. An HDMI-out port/Displayport is nice, but hardly necessary. Same for Firewire and ESATA, unless you use those to hook up your external HDs.
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Come on Kara, you don't know the answer to that one?
Actually I don't. I decided long ago that trying to keep up to date with which hardware is current is a losing battle since I simply don't have the time to keep up to date. Trying to find the answers on the internet is useless as there are simply too many sites dedicated to the subject and many of them are full of screaming dickwads (or worse, dickwads who aren't currently screaming and therefore don't give themselves away).
So when I buy hardware I ask someone who does know. Cause there are plenty of people on HLP who do care about hardware and do know these things.
You should aim for at least 8 GB, i7, a good graphic chipset, etc.
You've basically told me the real basics anyone would know and managed to miss out any of the useful information I wanted. What is a good graphics chipset these days? Which i7? Are the more expensive models worth the extra cash? Would it be better to simply spend the money on 16GB rather than a slightly faster CPU.
Make sure the i7 is a QM model. If it doesn't say QM, it ain't a real i7. A higher clock speed i5 will probably be worth more to you then an i7, just make sure it has 4 cores.
I figure 650m or better is good, but it gets pricey. Intel's HD4000 is not enough for anything more then office.
I would say 8GB is enough, but I honestly have no clue what you do. Regardless, RAM is cheaper to upgrade yourself then to get them to do it, CPUs are not. You can pick up a good set of low-power 4x4GB laptop ram for like $70, it's not exactly a big issue.
An SSD is good for speed and battery, but like RAM it's cheaper to do it yourself. If the laptop has 2 HDD bays, get a nice HDD with it and pop in an SSD later.
Don't jip out on a good wi-fi card, pretty obvious reasons.
Backlit keys are your friend. They aren't your best friend ever, but it's a nice thing to have. Same for a 9-cell battery.
If you have any specific questions I'll try to answer them, but that's the basic guide to laptops atm.
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Okay, I'm looking but a few questions have started appearing.
A friend recommended trying out Medion's offerings and I must say the machine he pointed me at (http://www.medion.com/gb/prod/MEDION%C2%AE+ERAZER%C2%AE+X7821+%28MD98244%29/30014968A1?category=nb_intel_i7&wt_mc=gb.intern.projekt.kb-notebook.on-ma&wt_cw=30.2.8&utm_source=shop&utm_medium=nbberater&utm_term={charge}&utm_campaign=intern) doesn't look bad, but then I know very little about laptops. What Laptop magazine seemed to like it though. Is it as good as it seems?
Also I tried comparing the specs for an elitebook against a similarly spec'd Alienware machine and for the most part the Alienware machine came out on top. Aren't they supposed to be hideously overpriced?
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I personally prefer to look for build-to-order type laptops and ran into this one:
http://www.xnotebooks.nl/17-18-notebooks/turbine-iv17-17inch-gaming-laptop-notebook-gtx660-hd4000-optimus-w370et.html
815 euro is just the basics, I'm certain when you're done it'll be about 950 euro though you'll have some good extras for that money.
I'm not too sure if they ship to Great Britain but perhaps a similar priced and specced machine can be found over there.
Also, do know that Intel is coming with the Haswell series in Q2 2013 if no delays are made. It'll be a architectural change (the tick-tock system) so they might be able to make considerable performance gains with that.
But then again, perhaps it's never a bad nor a good time to purchase any computer hardware, as there's always going to be a new generation, another good deal, or a sudden price change around a corner.
Anyhow, hope this helps a little bit in finding what you're looking for.
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I personally prefer to look for build-to-order type laptops and ran into this one:
http://www.xnotebooks.nl/17-18-notebooks/turbine-iv17-17inch-gaming-laptop-notebook-gtx660-hd4000-optimus-w370et.html
"Turbine" ... is that what it sounds like? ;) lol.
Sadly... with a very few rare exceptions, pretty much all of the socalled gaming laptops have ****ty, often outright idiotic cooling concepts, especially with the companies who just slap all that hardware into a barebone and put their sticker on top of it. Usually you end up with a laptop that either overheats/throttles or sounds like a jet engine during takeoff... heck... often they do both.
Be wary when choosing a "gaming laptop". Simply going by the "specs" of the hardware / price is a folly.
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I personally prefer to look for build-to-order type laptops and ran into this one:
http://www.xnotebooks.nl/17-18-notebooks/turbine-iv17-17inch-gaming-laptop-notebook-gtx660-hd4000-optimus-w370et.html
815 euro is just the basics, I'm certain when you're done it'll be about 950 euro though you'll have some good extras for that money.
I'm not too sure if they ship to Great Britain but perhaps a similar priced and specced machine can be found over there.
Also, do know that Intel is coming with the Haswell series in Q2 2013 if no delays are made. It'll be a architectural change (the tick-tock system) so they might be able to make considerable performance gains with that.
But then again, perhaps it's never a bad nor a good time to purchase any computer hardware, as there's always going to be a new generation, another good deal, or a sudden price change around a corner.
Anyhow, hope this helps a little bit in finding what you're looking for.
"Released" in Q2 (as late as july basically), with it not actually being used for another month and not used well for another after that. Takes time to adopt new tech, especially in laptops. Long time to wait.
As for the build-your-own guys... Can't pick a better vid card, only thing holding it back.
Okay, I'm looking but a few questions have started appearing.
A friend recommended trying out Medion's offerings and I must say the machine he pointed me at (http://www.medion.com/gb/prod/MEDION%C2%AE+ERAZER%C2%AE+X7821+%28MD98244%29/30014968A1?category=nb_intel_i7&wt_mc=gb.intern.projekt.kb-notebook.on-ma&wt_cw=30.2.8&utm_source=shop&utm_medium=nbberater&utm_term={charge}&utm_campaign=intern) doesn't look bad, but then I know very little about laptops. What Laptop magazine seemed to like it though. Is it as good as it seems?
Also I tried comparing the specs for an elitebook against a similarly spec'd Alienware machine and for the most part the Alienware machine came out on top. Aren't they supposed to be hideously overpriced?
Elitebook/Precision are not gaming comps. They get workstation (Firepro/Quadro) GPUs, not gaming ones, and are designed to be mobile workstations. They're going to cost an arm and a leg.
If you want something that will top Alienware, look at Sager, or ASUS I believe made those massive gaming laptops that could actually cool something.
As for the laptop you picked out... I can not speak for build quality as I have never seen the brand before, but the 680M is a big boy GPU. Here's a quick list of games and the FPS they got: http://images.anandtech.com/doci/5914/nvidia-gtx-680m-performance-new_575px.png
The 3630QM isn't a slouch either. 2.4Ghz might be slow, but FSO is single-thread so you'll get to use the max turbo on that core at 3.4Ghz.
I would frown at the 750GB, but it's paired with a 128GB SSD, so I'm not going to complain. 16GB of RAM, probably 1333 due to costs but might be 1600, these guys seem to be going all out.
1080p LED backlit screen, good. I was half expecting an IPS based on the specs, but sadly not.
Bluray reader, Intel wireless, 9-cell battery.
This thing looked decked out, it's hard to find pre-built laptops with that level of parts in it. The only concern I would have is the build quality of the laptop in question, and how well it cools the parts. There is YouTube for these things though, and I'm sure you can find some reviews on it somewhere.
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Google searching didn't find me any reviews for that particular model but other Medion laptops were getting pretty high ratings (4.5/5 or 5/5) and one was recommended on What Laptops 4 best gaming laptops section. So hopefully the build quality on this model isn't too bad either.
That suggests I'll be getting a machine in the UK in early Feb then. So if anyone can think of something better for the same price, you have about a month to convince me otherwise. :D
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Google searching didn't find me any reviews for that particular model but other Medion laptops were getting pretty high ratings (4.5/5 or 5/5) and one was recommended on What Laptops 4 best gaming laptops section. So hopefully the build quality on this model isn't too bad either.
That suggests I'll be getting a machine in the UK in early Feb then. So if anyone can think of something better for the same price, you have about a month to convince me otherwise. :D
Budget brands are, for above mention reasons, more than problematic as far as gaming laptops go.
Medion is one of the cheapest/crappiest brands you will find after looking long and hard for the cheapest/crappiest brand.
So, good luck with that... you will need it. lol.
Again... don't just go by "components" when buying a gaming laptop. Or at least, if you do, be aware of what you are getting into.
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Why do you say that? Pretty much every review I've seen has been positive.
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Why do you say that? Pretty much every review I've seen has been positive.
Googled Medion + built quality yet?
Also... over here Medion is (in)famous for being one of the few laptop brands being sold in discounters, due to its price.
(i.e.: In Germany the whole "Medion" brand is known as the "Aldi PC". Aldi being one of our major discounter chains... the cheapest of the cheap... they usually don't sell PCs or laptops ... but if they do, it's Medion lol.)
It was one of the first brands that I vowed to never buy as I researched my first laptop purchase... untold horror stories of built quality issues, quickly failing accessories like trackpads, keyboards, usb ports, etc. (which is a little more than annoying on a laptop.). And you can pretty much forget about sensible noise/thermal management with those machines. Heck... I remember a post about some "highend model" (few years ago, granted) where people complained that the plastic would deform in a spot due to bad heat management.
Seriously... as far as "cheap/crappyness" goes Medion is in a league of its own.
Even something mainstream like an Asus would look like a Ferrari next to that.
Sorry... don't want to diss your choice... but I seriously doubt you would be happy with that. Not longterm anyways.
Also... , once you picked a brand/model, I would recommend to take a long hard look at forums/owner's clubs and known issues instead of blindly trusting reviews that often heavily weigh performance (i.e. all those silly benchmarks) over something like built quality, thermals, noise or longevity. A reviewer rarely uses a given laptop for more than a week, usually less than that... you can bet that those reviews would look different if every reviewer had to rely on a given laptop for 1-3 years as their main computing device LOL.
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Why do you say that? Pretty much every review I've seen has been positive.
Googled Medion + built quality yet?
Just did, and I have a feeling you just don't like any high-spec laptops. Literally nothing I found was anywhere near as bad as you make them out to be.
@karajorma Just looking at Alienware makes me cry, just a 3630QM/680m is at $2050, let alone a good screen, SSD, ram... What's your budget for this thing anyway?
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Why do you say that? Pretty much every review I've seen has been positive.
Googled Medion + built quality yet?
Just did, and I have a feeling you just don't like any high-spec laptops. Literally nothing I found was anywhere near as bad as you make them out to be.
@karajorma Just looking at Alienware makes me cry, just a 3630QM/680m is at $2050, let alone a good screen, SSD, ram... What's your budget for this thing anyway?
If I were to buy a true highend machine I would propably go Alienware or Asus.
Pick the CPU and GPU I want... and upgrade HDD and RAM myself.
You are right that I dislike "gaming machines" due to the issues with build quality and thermal management/noise however. Alienware and Asus are just middle of the field as far as build quality goes as well. Personally, I would rather have a machine with business class built quality (and there are several with dedicated graphics cards as well that work just great for FSO and even recent AAA titles) that I can rely on, no ifs or buts, even if it means it scores a little less in 3d mark.
Having high hopes for Intel's Haswell chipset and their new graphics. Ivybridge's HD4000 is already quite decent... and if Intel builds on that we may as well see very capable "gaming ultrabooks" without compromises in the first half of this year already.
Is waiting on Haswell to see how it turns out an option by any chance?
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I'll second here what Mikes said. Specs aren't everything; some things (e.g. cooling) are never on the spec sheet, but vital nonetheless. The best-spec-for-money machines usually offer crap on those. Case in point, my brother's HP Envy; great specs, but crammed in a small case with an undersized fan. He uses an elevated stand for better airflow, cleans it out every few weeks, and is still stuck in perpetual power-saving mode to avoid overheating.
Reviews often make the same mistake: they use it for a week without obvious issues, like the specs a lot, and give the machine a great rating. What does that say about the wear and tear the machine will go through? Try looking for long-term user experiences instead; harder to find, but much more reliable. Also keep in mind that business-grade machines have a generally better build quality than consumer machines: companies have actual professionals picking their hardware, as opposed to Joe Bloke who doesn't look beyond the spec sheet.
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I agree that specs aren't everything, especially in a laptop, but an (albeit) brief google search for "Medion build quality" doesn't yield any results that outright support the claims of Medion being the worst brand ever. There are a bunch of satisfied users that say they've used them for years with no problems, and a few that complain about this or that, usually the customer support or some such. In other words, no worse than for any product on the market. Which is why I also understand Kara's confusion about this - I'm not saying Mikes is wrong, but posting some sort of concrete proof would be a lot better than making claims that, without anything to back them up, honestly look as just a personal opinion not based on personal experience. A bit like me having this irrational hatred of Citroën and then telling someone to not go and buy that C5 because "it's crap" - when I honestly have no idea how good the car really is, I just it's a Citroën and would therefore never consider it :)
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Newman... Medion is well known as the cheapo/discounter brand in Germany. That is a fact. Go look it up.
They may not be as well known outside of Germany/the EU and when googling them you may indeed be swamped with tons of reviews that focus on specs, but the info I hinted at is certainly there as well when you go look for it. When quality is actually examined it is certainly not favorable and at least one review that focuses on built quality is even on the first page of that google search. Forgive me if I don't feel like link hunting to "prove" a fact that every German has right in their face when they enter a local discounter like Aldi or reads about the the new Medion/Aldi PC and the issues it has in a german language magazine.
Mainstream brands like Dell or Asus would be a rather big step up from Medion.
(And I would still recommend to research any Dell or Asus gaming machine very very very carefully before you consider buying it. As said above... I wouldn't really "recommend" "gaming" laptop at all, but rather go for a gaming capable business class laptop as a minimum requirement ... and then research any potential purchase very carefully as well. The amount of ridiculous/idiotic issues even well made laptops have these days, quite often due to outright faulty designs, is simply astounding. And as for budget brands like "Medion", from my experience, you will pay for every dollar you save a thousandfold when the corners these companies cut come back to haunt you.)
I am sure if you research the issue in depth you will come to a similar conclusion - and if not you are welcome to prove me wrong. ;)
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Newman... Medion is well known as the cheapo/discounter brand in Germany. That is a fact. Go look it up.
Maybe Kara will look harder, since it's his money on the line here - and if he does find what you're telling is true, I'm sure he'll be thankful you helped him dodge that particular bullet. But there isn't a single brand out there that doesn't have it's share of haters, so the potential buyer needs to learn to filter the credible reviews from the not-so-credible ones. Which is, again, why the lack of evidence doesn't help in such discussions. Especially the awesome "google it", "we did, no evidence", "well google some more" combo doesn't inspire much confidence.
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Maybe Kara will look harder, since it's his money on the line here - and if he does find what you're telling is true, I'm sure he'll be thankful you helped him dodge that particular bullet. But there isn't a single brand out there that doesn't have it's share of haters, so the potential buyer needs to learn to filter the credible reviews from the not-so-credible ones. Which is, again, why the lack of evidence doesn't help in such discussions. Especially the awesome "google it", "we did, no evidence", "well google some more" combo doesn't inspire much confidence.
You have to bear with me for being too lazy (or rather too busy otherwise) today to go into all out link hunting mode. ;)
As you said, it's Kara's money on the line. Maybe he'll do the work either of us doesn't feel like doing right now and get back to us heh.
I do however stand by my statement that specs alone are worthless for finding a "good" laptop - and most "reviews" as well, as "most" of them - and especially the "professional" ones - heavily focus on specs and benchmarks again, which - I guess - is more economical from a review writers perspective than actually thoroughly testing every system as a main computing device over a longer time period.
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Focusing on specs alone is a particularly poor way to review a laptop, I agree.
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Yet I wasn't focusing on specs alone. I was focusing on reviews I'd seen.
I will google again because I always get suspicious when something is cheaper than everything else around it, but so far I've found little to back up Mikes' claims. Futhermore I must ask if Mikes is specifically referring to the Erazor line of laptops. You wouldn't write off HP Elitebooks because of problems with the cheaper Envy line so I have to ask.
@karajorma Just looking at Alienware makes me cry, just a 3630QM/680m is at $2050, let alone a good screen, SSD, ram... What's your budget for this thing anyway?
That Medion I linked to would be about the most I wanted to spend at around £1400.
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I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop (http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Superior_Mobility/ASUS_ZENBOOK_Touch_UX31A/) @ around 1000/1100 dollars.
It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.
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I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop (http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Superior_Mobility/ASUS_ZENBOOK_Touch_UX31A/) @ around 1000/1100 dollars.
It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.
Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.
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I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop (http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Superior_Mobility/ASUS_ZENBOOK_Touch_UX31A/) @ around 1000/1100 dollars.
It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.
Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.
Who said anything about a gaming laptop? It's still around what Kara asked for except for the screen size. And if a computer has lower specs or a higher price for similar one, you'll know it's a bad deal, AKA measuring stick.
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I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop (http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Superior_Mobility/ASUS_ZENBOOK_Touch_UX31A/) @ around 1000/1100 dollars.
It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.
Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.
Who said anything about a gaming laptop? It's still around what Kara asked for except for the screen size. And if a computer has lower specs or a higher price for similar one, you'll know it's a bad deal, AKA measuring stick.
... You arent understanding me.
Ultrabooks are a class of laptop designed around weight, size, and battery life. Not any other spec. It's over $1000 without any dedicated GPU at all, and no removable HDD. Why? Because it's not even a centimeter thick at it's thickest point.
To compare an Ultrabook to any other class of laptop borders on stupid. They are not priced for the same reason. It's like saying "Here's a desktop with a 560ti for only $900, why does that laptop with just a 560m cost $1000?" No. That isn't how it works.
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Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.
Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.
As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned. ;)
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Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.
Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.
As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned. ;)
Even if Haswell added 50% more GPU power, it would still suck. You have a very skewed idea of where Intel actually stands, especially compared to AMD's APUs.
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Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.
Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.
As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned. ;)
Even if Haswell added 50% more GPU power, it would still suck. You have a very skewed idea of where Intel actually stands, especially compared to AMD's APUs.
Depends on what you wanna do with it. It sure is a helluva step up from the old days of "no discrete GPU" = "No gaming". Period.
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Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.
Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.
As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned. ;)
Even if Haswell added 50% more GPU power, it would still suck. You have a very skewed idea of where Intel actually stands, especially compared to AMD's APUs.
Depends on what you wanna do with it. It sure is a helluva step up from the old days of "no discrete GPU" = "No gaming". Period.
That's certainly true.
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I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop (http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Superior_Mobility/ASUS_ZENBOOK_Touch_UX31A/) @ around 1000/1100 dollars.
It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.
Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.
Who said anything about a gaming laptop? It's still around what Kara asked for except for the screen size. And if a computer has lower specs or a higher price for similar one, you'll know it's a bad deal, AKA measuring stick.
... You arent understanding me.
Ultrabooks are a class of laptop designed around weight, size, and battery life. Not any other spec. It's over $1000 without any dedicated GPU at all, and no removable HDD. Why? Because it's not even a centimeter thick at it's thickest point.
To compare an Ultrabook to any other class of laptop borders on stupid. They are not priced for the same reason. It's like saying "Here's a desktop with a 560ti for only $900, why does that laptop with just a 560m cost $1000?" No. That isn't how it works.
I like the way you took my post and turned it's meaning upside down.
I present a laptop that has pretty good value in a category even you deem to find more expensive for it's specs due to other concerns.
How in god's name would you find comparing it to any other laptop to check if it's specs are better or it's price for the same specs worse a baseless comparison?
Your analogy is the other way around. It's "If this laptop has these components and it's 1000$, why does the desktop have WORSE/SAME components and costs more?". The point is trying to see if you are getting ripped off.
Coming back to the main topic, future proofing a laptop is usually done without much concern for the graphic card. As long as what you have is good enough for the present day (graphically), it should be good enough for an "old laptop" a few years from now. If you start taking into account graphics, it's starts becoming prohibitively expensive.
I'd recommend just focusing on memory and CPU specs for this issue.
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Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.
Badly, as evidenced by various issues in the recent BP release. I mean, trunk builds are probably fine, but once you add in shiny new effects that depend on advanced capabilities in OGL, you'll hit a rather hard wall.
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I'm not particularly worried about it being a top of the range graphics machine in 4-5 years time (or even middle of the range). I am however worried about it running FSO so slowly in debug mode as to be useless. My current machine gets somewhere in the order of 10-15 FPS running Diaspora via the debugger (more with a debug build, but not much more). This makes it hard to play any missions and makes it completely impossible to run a second copy of the game so I can test multiplayer.
It does a lot better with FSO but I'm a Diaspora dev too. And it's annoying not being able to work on Diaspora multiplayer.
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I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop (http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Superior_Mobility/ASUS_ZENBOOK_Touch_UX31A/) @ around 1000/1100 dollars.
It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.
Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.
Who said anything about a gaming laptop? It's still around what Kara asked for except for the screen size. And if a computer has lower specs or a higher price for similar one, you'll know it's a bad deal, AKA measuring stick.
... You arent understanding me.
Ultrabooks are a class of laptop designed around weight, size, and battery life. Not any other spec. It's over $1000 without any dedicated GPU at all, and no removable HDD. Why? Because it's not even a centimeter thick at it's thickest point.
To compare an Ultrabook to any other class of laptop borders on stupid. They are not priced for the same reason. It's like saying "Here's a desktop with a 560ti for only $900, why does that laptop with just a 560m cost $1000?" No. That isn't how it works.
I like the way you took my post and turned it's meaning upside down.
I present a laptop that has pretty good value in a category even you deem to find more expensive for it's specs due to other concerns.
How in god's name would you find comparing it to any other laptop to check if it's specs are better or it's price for the same specs worse a baseless comparison?
Your analogy is the other way around. It's "If this laptop has these components and it's 1000$, why does the desktop have WORSE/SAME components and costs more?". The point is trying to see if you are getting ripped off.
Coming back to the main topic, future proofing a laptop is usually done without much concern for the graphic card. As long as what you have is good enough for the present day (graphically), it should be good enough for an "old laptop" a few years from now. If you start taking into account graphics, it's starts becoming prohibitively expensive.
I'd recommend just focusing on memory and CPU specs for this issue.
And comparing to an Ultrabook will make even the crappiest laptops around look incredible price/spec wise.
It is stupid to compare any other class of laptop to an Ultrabook for any reason. Period.
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I'm not particularly worried about it being a top of the range graphics machine in 4-5 years time (or even middle of the range). I am however worried about it running FSO so slowly in debug mode as to be useless. My current machine gets somewhere in the order of 10-15 FPS running Diaspora via the debugger (more with a debug build, but not much more). This makes it hard to play any missions and makes it completely impossible to run a second copy of the game so I can test multiplayer.
Well where's the bottleneck? The Task Manager should be able to show you whether RAM and/or CPU are nearing critical levels, and if they're not, it's probably the GPU. (Keep in mind that, depending on the amount of cores in your current pc, critical CPU levels may be 50% or 25% for single-thread applications.)
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Well where's the bottleneck? The Task Manager should be able to show you whether RAM and/or CPU are nearing critical levels, and if they're not, it's probably the GPU. (Keep in mind that, depending on the amount of cores in your current pc, critical CPU levels may be 50% or 25% for single-thread applications.)
.... Did you just ask one of SCP's lead developers if he knows where the bottlenecks in his engine are? One of the lead developers on the one team that did more than any other one to profile the engine and figure out where the bottlenecks are?
There are several reasons why debug builds are generally slower. Logging code that has to be executed, extra checks that have to be performed on everything, compiler optimizations that can't be present (compiler-optimized code being essentially unusable for debugging purposes), using the debug CRT....
All in all, FSO is almost always CPU-bound, with very few exceptions.
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To be fair, Swifty has done more profiling than me. But yeah, I have profiled the engine many times. :)
Yep, the main issue has always been the CPU, especially in debug. But it's hard to say that will still be the case in 4-5 years from now.
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.... Did you just ask one of SCP's lead developers if he knows where the bottlenecks in his engine are? One of the lead developers on the one team that did more than any other one to profile the engine and figure out where the bottlenecks are?
Well I didn't expect needing to ask for it, but there you go :P Now that it's established that CPU is still the bottleneck, the i7 seems like a good choice indeed. And the matte screen on that Medion should prove useful playing "dark" games like FS - on a glossy screen you'd merely see your own reflection. Unless you sit in absolute darkness, but that kills the eyes.