[KyadCK]

Why do you say that? Pretty much every review I've seen has been positive.

Googled Medion + built quality yet?

Just did, and I have a feeling you just don't like any high-spec laptops. Literally nothing I found was anywhere near as bad as you make them out to be.

@karajorma Just looking at Alienware makes me cry, just a 3630QM/680m is at $2050, let alone a good screen, SSD, ram... What's your budget for this thing anyway?

[Mikes]

Why do you say that? Pretty much every review I've seen has been positive.

Googled Medion + built quality yet?

Just did, and I have a feeling you just don't like any high-spec laptops. Literally nothing I found was anywhere near as bad as you make them out to be.

@karajorma Just looking at Alienware makes me cry, just a 3630QM/680m is at $2050, let alone a good screen, SSD, ram... What's your budget for this thing anyway?

If I were to buy a true highend machine I would propably go Alienware or Asus.
Pick the CPU and GPU I want... and upgrade HDD and RAM myself.

You are right that I dislike "gaming machines" due to the issues with build quality and thermal management/noise however. Alienware and Asus are just middle of the field as far as build quality goes as well. Personally, I would rather have a machine with business class built quality (and there are several with dedicated graphics cards as well that work just great for FSO and even recent AAA titles) that I can rely on, no ifs or buts, even if it means it scores a little less in 3d mark.

Having high hopes for Intel's Haswell chipset and their new graphics. Ivybridge's HD4000 is already quite decent... and if Intel builds on that we may as well see very capable "gaming ultrabooks" without compromises in the first half of this year already.

Is waiting on Haswell to see how it turns out an option by any chance?

[FreeSpaceFreak]

I'll second here what Mikes said. Specs aren't everything; some things (e.g. cooling) are never on the spec sheet, but vital nonetheless. The best-spec-for-money machines usually offer crap on those. Case in point, my brother's HP Envy; great specs, but crammed in a small case with an undersized fan. He uses an elevated stand for better airflow, cleans it out every few weeks, and is still stuck in perpetual power-saving mode to avoid overheating.

Reviews often make the same mistake: they use it for a week without obvious issues, like the specs a lot, and give the machine a great rating. What does that say about the wear and tear the machine will go through? Try looking for long-term user experiences instead; harder to find, but much more reliable. Also keep in mind that business-grade machines have a generally better build quality than consumer machines: companies have actual professionals picking their hardware, as opposed to Joe Bloke who doesn't look beyond the spec sheet.

[newman]

I agree that specs aren't everything, especially in a laptop, but an (albeit) brief google search for "Medion build quality" doesn't yield any results that outright support the claims of Medion being the worst brand ever. There are a bunch of satisfied users that say they've used them for years with no problems, and a few that complain about this or that, usually the customer support or some such. In other words, no worse than for any product on the market. Which is why I also understand Kara's confusion about this - I'm not saying Mikes is wrong, but posting some sort of concrete proof would be a lot better than making claims that, without anything to back them up, honestly look as just a personal opinion not based on personal experience. A bit like me having this irrational hatred of Citroën and then telling someone to not go and buy that C5 because "it's crap" - when I honestly have no idea how good the car really is, I just it's a Citroën and would therefore never consider it

[Mikes]

Newman... Medion is well known as the cheapo/discounter brand in Germany. That is a fact. Go look it up.

They may not be as well known outside of Germany/the EU and when googling them you may indeed be swamped with tons of reviews that focus on specs, but the info I hinted at is certainly there as well when you go look for it. When quality is actually examined it is certainly not favorable and at least one review that focuses on built quality is even on the first page of that google search. Forgive me if I don't feel like link hunting to "prove" a fact that every German has right in their face when they enter a local discounter like Aldi or reads about the the new Medion/Aldi PC and the issues it has in a german language magazine.

Mainstream brands like Dell or Asus would be a rather big step up from Medion.
(And I would still recommend to research any Dell or Asus gaming machine very very very carefully before you consider buying it. As said above... I wouldn't really "recommend" "gaming" laptop at all, but rather go for a gaming capable business class laptop as a minimum requirement ... and then research any potential purchase very carefully as well. The amount of ridiculous/idiotic issues even well made laptops have these days, quite often due to outright faulty designs, is simply astounding. And as for budget brands like "Medion", from my experience, you will pay for every dollar you save a thousandfold when the corners these companies cut come back to haunt you.)

I am sure if you research the issue in depth you will come to a similar conclusion - and if not you are welcome to prove me wrong.

[newman]

Newman... Medion is well known as the cheapo/discounter brand in Germany. That is a fact. Go look it up.

Maybe Kara will look harder, since it's his money on the line here - and if he does find what you're telling is true, I'm sure he'll be thankful you helped him dodge that particular bullet. But there isn't a single brand out there that doesn't have it's share of haters, so the potential buyer needs to learn to filter the credible reviews from the not-so-credible ones. Which is, again, why the lack of evidence doesn't help in such discussions. Especially the awesome "google it", "we did, no evidence", "well google some more" combo doesn't inspire much confidence.

[Mikes]

Maybe Kara will look harder, since it's his money on the line here - and if he does find what you're telling is true, I'm sure he'll be thankful you helped him dodge that particular bullet. But there isn't a single brand out there that doesn't have it's share of haters, so the potential buyer needs to learn to filter the credible reviews from the not-so-credible ones. Which is, again, why the lack of evidence doesn't help in such discussions. Especially the awesome "google it", "we did, no evidence", "well google some more" combo doesn't inspire much confidence.

You have to bear with me for being too lazy (or rather too busy otherwise) today to go into all out link hunting mode.

As you said, it's Kara's money on the line. Maybe he'll do the work either of us doesn't feel like doing right now and get back to us heh.

I do however stand by my statement that specs alone are worthless for finding a "good" laptop - and most "reviews" as well, as "most" of them - and especially the "professional" ones - heavily focus on specs and benchmarks again, which - I guess - is more economical from a review writers perspective than actually thoroughly testing every system as a main computing device over a longer time period.

[newman]

Focusing on specs alone is a particularly poor way to review a laptop, I agree.

[karajorma]

Yet I wasn't focusing on specs alone. I was focusing on reviews I'd seen.

I will google again because I always get suspicious when something is cheaper than everything else around it, but so far I've found little to back up Mikes' claims. Futhermore I must ask if Mikes is specifically referring to the Erazor line of laptops. You wouldn't write off HP Elitebooks because of problems with the cheaper Envy line so I have to ask.

@karajorma Just looking at Alienware makes me cry, just a 3630QM/680m is at $2050, let alone a good screen, SSD, ram... What's your budget for this thing anyway?

That Medion I linked to would be about the most I wanted to spend at around £1400.

[Ghostavo]

I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop @ around 1000/1100 dollars.

It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.

[KyadCK]

I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop @ around 1000/1100 dollars.

It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.

Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.

[Ghostavo]

I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop @ around 1000/1100 dollars.

It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.

Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.

Who said anything about a gaming laptop? It's still around what Kara asked for except for the screen size. And if a computer has lower specs or a higher price for similar one, you'll know it's a bad deal, AKA measuring stick.

[KyadCK]

I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop @ around 1000/1100 dollars.

It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.

Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.

Who said anything about a gaming laptop? It's still around what Kara asked for except for the screen size. And if a computer has lower specs or a higher price for similar one, you'll know it's a bad deal, AKA measuring stick.

... You arent understanding me.

Ultrabooks are a class of laptop designed around weight, size, and battery life. Not any other spec. It's over $1000 without any dedicated GPU at all, and no removable HDD. Why? Because it's not even a centimeter thick at it's thickest point.

To compare an Ultrabook to any other class of laptop borders on stupid. They are not priced for the same reason. It's like saying "Here's a desktop with a 560ti for only $900, why does that laptop with just a 560m cost $1000?" No. That isn't how it works.

[Mikes]

Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.

Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.


As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned.

[KyadCK]

Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.

Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.


As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned.

Even if Haswell added 50% more GPU power, it would still suck. You have a very skewed idea of where Intel actually stands, especially compared to AMD's APUs.

[Mikes]

Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.

Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.


As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned.

Even if Haswell added 50% more GPU power, it would still suck. You have a very skewed idea of where Intel actually stands, especially compared to AMD's APUs.

Depends on what you wanna do with it. It sure is a helluva step up from the old days of "no discrete GPU" = "No gaming". Period.

[KyadCK]

Integrated Graphics ain't half bad nowadays. Intel's HD4000 still can't compete with a discrete card, true, but you can actually play quite a lot of games, even several recent games, just fine on them nowadays.

Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.


As I mentioned above... if Intel delivers as promised with Haswell this spring, we may see Ultrabooks that are not just "ok" but even great for gaming.
A business class ultrabook would then literally be the best of all worlds as far as mobile computing/gaming is concerned.

Even if Haswell added 50% more GPU power, it would still suck. You have a very skewed idea of where Intel actually stands, especially compared to AMD's APUs.

Depends on what you wanna do with it. It sure is a helluva step up from the old days of "no discrete GPU" = "No gaming". Period.

That's certainly true.

[Ghostavo]

I just saw some guys at AnandTech going on and on and on about this laptop @ around 1000/1100 dollars.

It seems to be a good mid-range laptop to use as a measuring stick.

Ultrabooks are not even in the same class as "gaming" laptops, don't ever use their prices to compare. Most of their cost comes from, well, being ultrabooks, not specs or build quality.

Who said anything about a gaming laptop? It's still around what Kara asked for except for the screen size. And if a computer has lower specs or a higher price for similar one, you'll know it's a bad deal, AKA measuring stick.

... You arent understanding me.

Ultrabooks are a class of laptop designed around weight, size, and battery life. Not any other spec. It's over $1000 without any dedicated GPU at all, and no removable HDD. Why? Because it's not even a centimeter thick at it's thickest point.

To compare an Ultrabook to any other class of laptop borders on stupid. They are not priced for the same reason. It's like saying "Here's a desktop with a 560ti for only $900, why does that laptop with just a 560m cost $1000?" No. That isn't how it works.

I like the way you took my post and turned it's meaning upside down.

I present a laptop that has pretty good value in a category even you deem to find more expensive for it's specs due to other concerns.

How in god's name would you find comparing it to any other laptop to check if it's specs are better or it's price for the same specs worse a baseless comparison?

Your analogy is the other way around. It's "If this laptop has these components and it's 1000$, why does the desktop have WORSE/SAME components and costs more?". The point is trying to see if you are getting ripped off.


Coming back to the main topic, future proofing a laptop is usually done without much concern for the graphic card. As long as what you have is good enough for the present day (graphically), it should be good enough for an "old laptop" a few years from now. If you start taking into account graphics, it's starts becoming prohibitively expensive.

I'd recommend just focusing on memory and CPU specs for this issue.

[The E]

Dunno how well it would handle FSO though.

Badly, as evidenced by various issues in the recent BP release. I mean, trunk builds are probably fine, but once you add in shiny new effects that depend on advanced capabilities in OGL, you'll hit a rather hard wall.

[karajorma]

I'm not particularly worried about it being a top of the range graphics machine in 4-5 years time (or even middle of the range). I am however worried about it running FSO so slowly in debug mode as to be useless. My current machine gets somewhere in the order of 10-15 FPS running Diaspora via the debugger (more with a debug build, but not much more). This makes it hard to play any missions and makes it completely impossible to run a second copy of the game so I can test multiplayer.

It does a lot better with FSO but I'm a Diaspora dev too. And it's annoying not being able to work on Diaspora multiplayer.