How will the populace react to martial law and the removal of democracy in favour of direct military rule?
Will the council of Elders be killed off / disappeared to a remote research facility for a future of brain dissection?
Will the Fedyaeen hand over Cassandra to the GTVA?
Will the change over from trade to war production cripple the economy of the Sol system or boost it - bearing in mind that the Terrans are dependent on the Vasudans to support their own systems.
Will we see forced exoduses from Sol as the GTVA tries to stabilise the colony world populations?
Will the Fedayeen disband or continue to act as an underground movement?
- Will the Fedyaeen hand over Cassandra to the GTVA if told to do so?
- Will the GTVA try to eliminate them or try to bring them over to their side?
How would the GTVA deal with public anger over war crimes and atrocities carried out by both sides during the war?
- Possible truth and reconciliation commission used to calm emotion within the civilian population?
- A war crimes tribunal against senior members of the UEF military?
- An official apology for the bombing of civilian targets?
The GTVA does not have the military strength to do a full occupation of Sol.
All in all, the GTVA you describe is villainous to an extreme we (as the BP team) did not intend. The GTVA is harsh, yes. It will make some decisions that the Sol populace may not agree with, yes. But at the same time, there is no benefit to courting disaster by behaving like a bunch of jackasses towards a population
Noemi killed one Elder, which wanted the war to end, we know that some Elders are under vishnan "controll", so silence them and tell the rest to maintain public order, no need to kill everyone.The Elders are definately not controlled by the Vishnans, or at least no longer. Shortly after the war they lost contact with the Vishnan and that "silence" is making them nervous.
While I've had this image of Noemi being hung at the culmination of a sham trial at the end of the war for a while now (irrelevant coincidence), what war crimes has the UEF committed? They weren't the ones dropping the nukes on civilians, or attacking refugee convoys, or assassinating elders on sanctioned diplomatic missions. Not yet, anyway.Scorched earth protocols on populated stations. Hell, if you let Simak get captured in TBI, you have to kill it yourself. So you even get to perform a war crime!
Noemi killed one Elder, which wanted the war to end, we know that some Elders are under vishnan "controll", so silence them and tell the rest to maintain public order, no need to kill everyone.The Elders are definately not controlled by the Vishnans, or at least no longer. Shortly after the war they lost contact with the Vishnan and that "silence" is making them nervous.
While I've had this image of Noemi being hung at the culmination of a sham trial at the end of the war for a while now (irrelevant coincidence), what war crimes has the UEF committed? They weren't the ones dropping the nukes on civilians, or attacking refugee convoys, or assassinating elders on sanctioned diplomatic missions. Not yet, anyway.Scorched earth protocols on populated stations. Hell, if you let Simak get captured in TBI, you have to kill it yourself. So you even get to perform a war crime!
That definitely went well for us treacherous sons of *****es. Nothing's better than dead Tevs.
This reminds me, what happened to the captured technicians?
Regarding Vishnan contamination, I would foresee massive Spanish Inquisition style SOC squads getting permission to, forcefully, 'extract' compromised individuals.
While I've had this image of Noemi being hung at the culmination of a sham trial at the end of the war for a while now (irrelevant coincidence), what war crimes has the UEF committed? They weren't the ones dropping the nukes on civilians, or attacking refugee convoys, or assassinating elders on sanctioned diplomatic missions. Not yet, anyway.Scorched earth protocols on populated stations. Hell, if you let Simak get captured in TBI, you have to kill it yourself. So you even get to perform a war crime!
You also assassinate an elder in Act 3.
Strap GEF's to flying bombs in the first mission, and in some cases, kill them.
The Arethusa was destroyed under flag of truce.
You also assassinate an elder in Act 3.The GTVA assasinated an Elder in a mission of peace with the GTA's own allies, using terrorists to cover up their tracks.
Strap GEF's to flying bombs in the first mission, and in some cases, kill them.Those pilots were known terrorists, part of a cell that's responsible for many innocent death'. Do you really think the general public will care much about them?
The Arethusa was destroyed under flag of truce.As Suongadon already said, this was an accident. One that could have been avoided if the Deimos hadn't started jamming communications.
While I've had this image of Noemi being hung at the culmination of a sham trial at the end of the war for a while now (irrelevant coincidence), what war crimes has the UEF committed? They weren't the ones dropping the nukes on civilians, or attacking refugee convoys, or assassinating elders on sanctioned diplomatic missions. Not yet, anyway.Scorched earth protocols on populated stations.
I think it was a reference to The Blade Itself.
Wait. When did any GVA or UEF Warship fly under false flags? :confused:
Wait. When did any GVA or UEF Warship fly under false flags? :confused:
During that mission where you kill Vasudans and frame Kostadin Cell.
Wait. When did any GVA or UEF Warship fly under false flags? :confused:
During that mission where you kill Vasudans and frame Kostadin Cell.
Oh. But I still don't think the GTVA could pin that on the UEF, Fedayeen? Sure, Council of Elders? Sure....but the UEF Navy? I'm not so sure.
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but has no one considered that the GTVA might actually lose?
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but has no one considered that the GTVA might actually lose?
Well, militarily, unless a miracle, and/or Steele having a sudden hearth attack...
Knowing Steele, though, he'd probably be able to work out a way to avoid getting his mind shattered by that thing.
Toqeville on the other hand probably wouldn't last three seconds (conjecture here--I know nothing about the good Secretary-General)
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but has no one considered that the GTVA might actually lose?
QuoteSorry if this is a little off topic, but has no one considered that the GTVA might actually lose?
Yes but as the massive battle mission (I know this will probably change due to the course the war has taken but people would still quote it) has given a clue of what this entails I thought that this thread would lead to more interesting speculation - especially as I'm UEF fan and this is my worst case scenario.
Hence the worst case scenario :)
I'm sure that the general or the E said somewhere that the ending of BP2 would be the end of the war with whatever happens afterward in BP3.
Maybe the beginning of the Shivan/Vishnan/Great Darkness apocalypse will be shown in an epilogue as a 1 year later.... cutscene showing an attack on a GTVA installation or convoy.
how Sol is going to change once the assult on Earth is successfully resolved and the GTVA take control of Sol.Not going to happen. Over my dead body. Nope.avi
I'm hijacking my own threads now :banghead:
Just turn them into area denial defense boats.Not possible...
Keep the flak, rip out the rest of the armaments and replace with Ter Pulse, more flak, and Anti Fighter beams. Turns all these frigates into suped up Aeoli that can carry fighters.
Might not be feasible for the solaris, but hey it would be damn cool. Can you imagine a solaris dedicated purely to shooting down fighters? My god it would be a monster.
I'm hijacking my own threads now :banghead:
Well I helped :D - And to continue with that hijacking ... ;7
I'm not sure if the UEF quite has the strength to fully push the GTA out purely militarily - more likely stalling them with political will to keep fighting in the GTA vanishing. I do agree an internal confrontation within the UEF seems likely at this point sometime in the next couple of acts, plus we don't know what the Elders' end game is yet. And who knows what Vishnans and Shivans will do before or after the civil war conflict is resolved. I can totally see the GTA forces making a run for the node ... but not because the UEF have driven them out ... but because the Shivans are back! :P
Actually, no. If the Shivans do pop up in GTVA space, Steele will just do the "Decisive attack on Earth" thing and finish the civil war, then go running through the node. It would be a logistical and strategic nightmare to jump back to Tev space at that time, and anyway, the GTVA probably has at least 40 Destroyers (zods included) on the other side of the node to take care of the situation.Unless of course Shivan arrival breaks Steele time table and supply lines and his "Decisive attack on Earth" ends up as failed or unresolved. Also, 40 destroyers? wow... imagine the Shivan terror at prospect of facing them. Shivans can roll hundred Juggers if they wish. Only reason humanity still exists at this point is because extermination was NOT the objective in either the first or second Shivan incursion (at least in BP universe). If it was, Freespace 1 would have been a VERY short game ;)
What other choice would the tevs have? 'Yo, Elder folks. We'd take it as a kindness if you'd like, stop working on that Shambayla thing till we blow up some jump nodes and stop the Shivans. We'll be back to pick this civil war thing up in a few months, and we'll get back to beating you before you can finish it. Yeah.'
Actually, no. If the Shivans do pop up in GTVA space, Steele will just do the "Decisive attack on Earth" thing and finish the civil war, then go running through the node. It would be a logistical and strategic nightmare to jump back to Tev space at that time, and anyway, the GTVA probably has at least 40 Destroyers (zods included) on the other side of the node to take care of the situation.
humanity is doomed by the Shivans, the UEF and GTA, that is a really good reason to stop fightingI wouldn't place much faith in Tevs realising that.
humanity is doomed by the Shivans, the UEF and GTA, that is a really good reason to stop fightingI wouldn't place much faith in Tevs realising that.
On the other hand, with Elders now apparently working for humanity extinction as well (at least in it's current carbon-based, oxygen breathing, bipedal form) i think humanz placed themselves in perfect loose-loose situation. Very human actually, when i come to think of it.
Sidenote:
Am i the only one confused bySpoiler:the vast discrepancies in Vishnan-Shivan dailogue in AoA Unviersal Truth vs Tenebra Universal Truth?
In AoA, you're playing a man who has been groomed since birth by the Vishnans.
In WiH, you're playing a woman who has been groomed since birth by the Shivans.
I would ... the Tevs are ruthless to a fault, but not completely stupid :)Remains to be proven by any empirical data. <wink>
I honestly haven't played the original AoA campaign in awhile so I can't really comment, but I guess wouldn't be surprised if there were discrepancies as the story has ... evolved. :)Yeah, i don;t think this has anything to do with 'evolution' of the story. They basically say the same things, but differently. Also, the Vishnan version seems to be 'propagandated' - it sums a very long response/explanation from Shivans as "We won't" [let them pass].
I would ... the Tevs are ruthless to a fault, but not completely stupid :)Remains to be proven by any empirical data. <wink>
(Talking about society as a whole. Steele is obviously a brilliant (if ruthless) person)I honestly haven't played the original AoA campaign in awhile so I can't really comment, but I guess wouldn't be surprised if there were discrepancies as the story has ... evolved. :)Yeah, i don;t think this has anything to do with 'evolution' of the story. They basically say the same things, but differently. Also, the Vishnan version seems to be 'propagandated' - it sums a very long response/explanation from Shivans as "We won't" [let them pass].
On the other hand it may be the Shivan version is more truthful. Or perhaps they are BOTH true. Or neither?
Anyway, Whatever the aftermath of GTVA victory may be, the aftermath of GTVA welcoming their long lost brothers and sisters with beam fire will have (already has) much more dire repercussions. (Why hello there Mr. Sathanas 312, please form an orderly queue at the jump node, right behind Mr. Dante)
I would ... the Tevs are ruthless to a fault, but not completely stupid :)Remains to be proven by any empirical data. <wink>
(Talking about society as a whole. Steele is obviously a brilliant (if ruthless) person)I honestly haven't played the original AoA campaign in awhile so I can't really comment, but I guess wouldn't be surprised if there were discrepancies as the story has ... evolved. :)Yeah, i don;t think this has anything to do with 'evolution' of the story. They basically say the same things, but differently. Also, the Vishnan version seems to be 'propagandated' - it sums a very long response/explanation from Shivans as "We won't" [let them pass].
On the other hand it may be the Shivan version is more truthful. Or perhaps they are BOTH true. Or neither?
Anyway, Whatever the aftermath of GTVA victory may be, the aftermath of GTVA welcoming their long lost brothers and sisters with beam fire will have (already has) much more dire repercussions. (Why hello there Mr. Sathanas 312, please form an orderly queue at the jump node, right behind Mr. Dante)
That definitely sounds more like propaganda than a mere difference in perspective. I really wouldn't trust either of them. Although it is odd ... what's broken down on the cosmic scale since the implication is that Shivans and Vishnans are no longer cooperating in that other universe and now ours (and how much comm is there between universes for each species)? Of course there are a huge amount of implications from that little exchange between the Vishnans and Shivans about who is what and why. From something Ken said, it made it sounds like the Vishnans could order the Shivans to do something - that they were going order the destruction of man by the Shivans, but from the exchange and other information, the Shivans are actually older than the Vishnans.
I am also surprised the GTA security council reached the decision they did when it was strongly theorized in the GTVA by both Vasudans and Humans that the Shivans might be attracted to war even without the above knowledge. It seems an awful risk to then go to war even just suspecting that - even if you think humans are better off with your form of government to face the Shivans and if you are afraid of alien influence within the other government. Whatever their end game plan for Sol actually is, they're risking extinction by doing this. Unless they actually do know what Shambayla (sic?) and decided it was worth the risk of extinction to stop it, but I dunno: they don't seem to know about it and it's hard to imagine what else could cause them to take such extreme measures...
Of course that's also the trouble about theorizing what the GTA's occupation of Sol would be like, as long or short as it may be before armageddon. I'm not sure we know all the motives yet.
Even the Shivans ... it's odd. They want GTVA defeated/destroyed but also seem to want Laporte to stop the Elders and Shambayla. It's hard to see what exactly their angle is - especially, as aforementioned, with respect to the Vishnans. Also the Fedayeen made mention that the Shivans were more complicated but their counterparts motives were easier to understand (or maybe I flipped that around?). However, they didn't seem to elaborate on that.
Request: can an moderator/admin please get the off-topic pieces of this thread cut out into a new one? We seem to have made quite a derail. It would best to keep this thread about the hypothetical Tev victory.
The Universal Truth is that there is no Universal Truth! Both sides show you their point of view, the Shivans countering the near absolute pacifism of the Federation does not surprise me, the Vishnans trying to give order to the GTVA does not either.
The point is that they have to be on a balanced center point, a good creator knows what to destroy and recreate and what to preserve and build upon, and isn't a Brahma what the Shishnans need according to the protocol?
Possibly worthy of note, The Shivan Node in 'Ken' gives a repeating conversation:
(...) reify engage resolve interrupt! reassess escalate consult hierachy
diverge project project goal reset CONSEAL tremor locate assess
contextualize diverge preserve/destroy select cull threshold reify
engage resolve interrupt! reassess interrupt! reassess escalate
consult hierarchy diverge diverge project CONCEAL project goal reset
CONCEAL tremor locate assess contextualize diverge preserve/destroy (...)
It's been clear since the first half of WIH that the Shivans are ignoring their cull order and ignoring the Vishnan probing about their intentions. Probably because they do not with for more preservers, but builders.
It was supposed to be a lightning strike, jumping in under a friendly flag, locking above major cities and then demanding surrender.
AoA screwed it up
Ok back on topic how do people think GTVA governance will affect Sol's populace?
Can the GTVA gain legitimacy in their eyes considering the background to the war? Will those who work with the GTVA be seen as traitors to Sol or will most people see which way the wind is blowing and actively work with the GTVA for the greater good? Can the GTVA use the spectre of the Shivans to convince the populace to aid in the reconstruction of the Terran forces or will Ubuntu pacifism win out?
Ok back on topic how do people think GTVA governance will affect Sol's populace?
Which is interesting because in the other universe they were gung-ho about continuing the cull
Yet in Fallen Angel the Sathanas shock jumps the Sacred Keeper,The Sacred Keeper says VERY important thing just prior to that in my opinion: "The Great Darkness is coming! She... is coming".
Not at all.That's the most realistic and sad part. Ruthless, smart occupants will always prevail :(
It is neither simple nor practical to replace the entire governing mechanisms of the Solar System, and if the GTVA is wise, they will not even try. Upper echelon cleanout, perhaps, but even that not so much. Reconstruction provides jobs. Stay off the ground, just exploit your orbital superiority and hence your stranglehold on travel and trade.
Nothing visible changes to most citizens. No visible targets to resist, either. The GTVA does not need massive restructuring of the government as much as it needs Sol's shipyards.
Not at all.
It is neither simple nor practical to replace the entire governing mechanisms of the Solar System, and if the GTVA is wise, they will not even try. Upper echelon cleanout, perhaps, but even that not so much. Reconstruction provides jobs. Stay off the ground, just exploit your orbital superiority and hence your stranglehold on travel and trade.
Nothing visible changes to most citizens. No visible targets to resist, either. The GTVA does not need massive restructuring of the government as much as it needs Sol's shipyards.
After World War II, the U.S. let Emperor Hirohito stay on the throne. So is it possible the GTVA may let the Elders stay somehow?That would defeat entire purpose of invading Sol. GTA wants to get rid of all Vishnan influence. There is no way they leave Elders at power.
If some of the elders could be swayed to the GTVA, they could become some sort of governors, that would help prevent unrest.After World War II, the U.S. let Emperor Hirohito stay on the throne. So is it possible the GTVA may let the Elders stay somehow?That would defeat entire purpose of invading Sol. GTA wants to get rid of all Vishnan influence. There is no way they leave Elders at power.
If some of the elders could be swayed to the GTVA, they could become some sort of governors, that would help prevent unrest.Nope. GTA want's Elders dead, preferably after vivisection.
Elders are in contact with Vishnans
+ GTA wants to "purge" Sol of all Vishnan influence
= GTA wants to "purge" EldersWhich is interesting because in the other universe they were gung-ho about continuing the cull
Were they really?
There were at dozens of Sathanas juggernauts in system, possibly hundreds. We don't know anything about the Dante's capabilities, but it was on the battlefield. And yet...
The total forces that attacked the 14th in Universal Truth were several dozen bombers and two cruisers.
It stretches my disbelief that out of all the forces in the system, the Vishnans somehow managed to tie down everything but strike craft and two cruisers. Especially when Shivans have such strong subspace capability. Doubly especially because the Dante was right there. I can only conclude that the Shivans let the 14th go. They're playing the long con on the Vishnans.
From FS2 we can hypothesize that losses of Sathanas class are trivial to the Shivans, something that was confirmed in Tenebra. Yet in Fallen Angel the Sathanas shock jumps the Sacred Keeper, rather than any of the ships of the GTVA fleet. If exterminating the Humans was so important, why make that particular attack? Same for in Universal Truth, if juggernauts are disposable, why use them all fighting the Vishnans if the true goal is to cull the humans?
There's more to it too. In the version of the conversation the Vishnans showed to the 14th, they implied that the Vasudans were extinct and the Shivans wished to make Humanity extinct too. But that's an outright lie, because the Vishnans became aware of everything Bei knew when he joined them, including the continued existence of the Vasudans in the parallel universe. Now, being charitable, it might just be that these particular Vishnans and Shivans are only concerned about their own universe, but by allowing the Sanctuary to escape to the parallel universe the Vishnans essentially cause the same thing - no more humans in their universe.
And we know from later information (tech room and the second Universal Truth) that it's at least hypothesized the Vishnans and Shivans are pan-universal.
Sure they can. Opening up economic connections to the rest of the GTVA will generate enormous levels of trade and demand for wares. Even if 99% of Sols industrial exports is civilian in nature, that will free up enormous ressources on the colonial side of things.
The thing you are forgetting is that the GTVA's stance on being ready to fight Shivans at the drop of a hat is not entirely unreasonable. Sure, they have "lost something out there", as Laporte put it, but that does not mean that their fears and wants are unjustified.Right. I'm sure UEF citizens won't object at all to have government made of people who ordered NUCLEAR BOMBING of (their own) civilian cities few months back.
The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people. The UEF knows this; as such, there won't be all that many heavy objections.
The thing you are forgetting is that the GTVA's stance on being ready to fight Shivans at the drop of a hat is not entirely unreasonable. Sure, they have "lost something out there", as Laporte put it, but that does not mean that their fears and wants are unjustified.Right. I'm sure UEF citizens won't object at all to have government made of people who ordered NUCLEAR BOMBING of (their own) civilian cities few months back.
The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people. The UEF knows this; as such, there won't be all that many heavy objections.
There is a difference between recognizing need to change, and submitting to a bully that tells you "Change. Nao!".
Well, we do have a historical example of a nation surrendering to and becoming a key ally of a country that ordered the nuclear bombing of its civilian cities...Different story. The bomber was not the agressor.
The thing you are forgetting is that the GTVA's stance on being ready to fight Shivans at the drop of a hat is not entirely unreasonable. Sure, they have "lost something out there", as Laporte put it, but that does not mean that their fears and wants are unjustified.
The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people. The UEF knows this; as such, there won't be all that many heavy objections.
Well, we do have a historical example of a nation surrendering to and becoming a key ally of a country that ordered the nuclear bombing of its civilian cities...
I doubt that was a particular consideration for the Japanese government and citizenry. 'Ah, balls, I guess we deserve it!'
While the GTVA may remove the Elders from power, it'd be wise (wouldn't it?) to keep some of the Ubuntu Party leaders in power right? (As long as they accepted GTVA authority of course).
Remember the Ubuntus believe their form of government and their long range planning has made them enlightened and brought them paradise.
Remember the Ubuntus believe their form of government and their long range planning has made them enlightened and brought them paradise.
And they can keep paradise. And if they can keep paradise, have they any tangible reason to complain? People rebel because things are bad for them personally, remember.
Gray's analysis is fascinatingly wrong on several counts. First, that's not what is being proposed. The GTVA has the ability to blockade any and all individual planets in Sol. They would tell the local authorities to keep the peace and keep order or face total economic and travel exclusion. If they keep the peace and keep order, they may continue in business as usual. Life will change, if at all, only for those who go offworld.
He's got the history of Japan completely wrong. The US essentially destroyed Japan's economy, there are no meaningful minorities in Japan even today, and the US didn't empower anyone or rebuild anything. The Emperor-as-figurehead is a story told by MacArthur because he needed the Emperor to help keep order. Japan's economy only recovered during and after the Korean War when US influence was relaxed to allow the zaibatsu to come back in exchange for Japanese support.
Third, he's completely misread the influence of the Elders. It has been stated by Batts and Darius that they are closer to an extremely prestigious advisory council to the planetary governments than a genuinely executive power (something that anyone who's followed the lack of coordination between the UEF's fleets should probably have realized!). A more correct parallel would be the Supreme Council for the Defense of the Faith in Iran; immense advisory and veto power, but little actual decision-making is done there. Removing the Elders yet keeping their programs in place will result in very little short-term change on the ground.
there are no meaningful minorities in Japan even today
The Emperor-as-figurehead is a story told by MacArthur because he needed the Emperor to help keep order.
Edit: The Terran government is of course the outsourced tech team with a proven record of incompetence in the metaphore as the have been shown to be unable to properly administer their own systems without Vasudan aid.This sentence is almost 100% false.
The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people.I think Sol has more than 9 billion people. Today's Earth has nearly 7 billion. :p
This sentence is almost 100% false.
Aesaar - No one is accusing the GTVA of that. However it is a completely different style of government (militant) to what is practiced in Sol (Democratic) as well as being the aggressor in this conflict.Matth said it better than me:
[07:39.39] <MatthTheGeek> just because they [the military] are allowed to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of the human and vasudan species doesn't mean the gtva citizen are living in north koreaThere is a civilian government in the GTVA. Just because the military has a bigger role than we're used to does not make it a military dictatorship. Moreover, I find it amusing how you call the UEF democratic despite the fact that effective power rests with the unelected Council of Elders, who themselves have access to a black ops group with extremely limited accountability.
The assumption that they can defeat the UEF militarily and then take over the running of Sol with very little problems is incredibly naive.Actually, they can. The reason why has been explained to you time and time again, but you just don't want believe it. I'll say it again anyway: With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist. Why would they?
I suggest that you reread the Rift.I suggest that you stop exaggerating every single tiny factor. The Vasudans provide limited financial aid to the Terrans. That most certainly does not equal, as you put it, "unable to properly administer their own systems without Vasudan aid." And the "proven track record of incompetence" part is actually 100% false.
With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist.Also, note that the UEF citizens are (on average) highly educated and open-minded. I am fairly certain the GTVA is betting on that for making them understand that now that the war is over, it's better for all humanity if they keep living peacefully. They may not completely enjoy it, but they will be sensible to rational argumentation if the Tevs play their cards right.
Also, note that the UEF citizens are (on average) highly educated and open-minded. I am fairly certain the GTVA is betting on that for making them understand that now that the war is over, it's better for all humanity if they keep living peacefully. They may not completely enjoy it, but they will be sensible to rational argumentation if the Tevs play their cards right.So basically it's a bully that kicks down the door to you home, kills those of your family that tried to kick him out, throws a grenade into child's room for good measure and then says "now that the hostilities have ended, you are to be happy to live under my command." I don't know about UEF citizens, but i know what my response would be.
Also, educated masses are harder to make revolt than uneducated masses.I can't agree with that.
So basically it's a bully that kicks down the door to you home, kills those of your family that tried to kick him out, throws a grenade into child's room for good measure and then says "now that the hostilities have ended, you are to be happy to live under my command." I don't know about UEF citizens, but i know what my response would be.How fortunate that that isn't at all what the GTVA is doing.
So basically it's a bully that kicks down the door to you home, kills those of your family that tried to kick him out, throws a grenade into child's room for good measure and then says "now that the hostilities have ended, you are to be happy to live under my command." I don't know about UEF citizens, but i know what my response would be.
There is a civilian government in the GTVA. Just because the military has a bigger role than we're used to does not make it a military dictatorship. Moreover, I find it amusing how you call the UEF democratic despite the fact that effective power rests with the unelected Council of Elders, who themselves have access to a black ops group with extremely limited accountability.
Actually, they can. The reason why has been explained to you time and time again, but you just don't want believe it. I'll say it again anyway: With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist. Why would they?
The Vasudans provide limited financial aid to the Terrans. That most certainly does not equal, as you put it, "unable to properly administer their own systems without Vasudan aid." The "proven track record of incompetence" part is actually 100% false
The UEF citizens elect their governors, whatever power the Elders have is because their social models are working which has earned them the support of the populace and their elected representatives. If the GTVA usurp power then they are removing peoples democratic choice through violence and replacing it with a dictatorship.Except that the only elected members of the UEF government wouldn't be the ones getting removed. The GTVA isn't removing anyone's democratic choice. The Elders are not elected. They have as much claim to democratic legitimacy as the GTVA does.
There it is again the assumption that nothing is going to change which completely ignores my argument that the Terrans will probably be unable to recreate the economic systems that the Elders developed due to the complexity of these systems and the loss of unique environment in isolationist Sol that allowed these systems to flourish. If these systems fail then the populace is looking at massive unemployment and damage to social infrastructure. This will change peoples lives drastically and all this blame will fall solely at the feet of the security council.Why would the Terrans be unable to replicate the UEF systems? The UEF economic models were generated by supercomputers the GTVA would have access to. Isolationist conditions can be maintained and lifted slowly through tight regulation of the jump node. Moreover, the demand for materials in the GTVA would result in increased demand for goods, not less. The addition of a new market for UEF goods would not cause unemployment. This is pretty much as basic as economics get.
One of the primary reasons cited for going to war was to give the Terran population an outside force to unite against - a common policy used by unpopular governments to distract from their own failings(recent examples include the invasion of Kuwait and the Falklands conflict). The Terran half of the GTVA is on the verge of civil war on a scale not seen since the NTF uprisings and without Vasudan aid the government would have already collapsed. Instead of doing as the Vasudans did to restore their systems and regain stability the terrans instead put all their resources into constructing the Sol gate and a crash fleet building program designed to defend against a foe that cannot be defeated militarily. All this whilst ignoring massive social problems within their own populace. Once the gate was finally constructed instead of doing the smart thing and opening a covert dialogue with the leaders of the Sol government they instead took a massive gamble where they launched a war that has crippled what was left of their financial output leaving them dependent on military aid from the Vasudans and left them staring at the complete dissolution of their society if the fail to quickly conclude the war. All in all pretty incompetent by most standards.Oh ffs. Reread the causes of the war and you'll understand why "covert dialog" wasn't a good option for the GTVA. Then make sure you understand what MORPHEUS is and you'll understand why war was the only option.
They have as much claim to democratic legitimacy as the GTVA does.
The UEF economic models were generated by supercomputers the GTVA would have access to. Isolationist conditions can be maintained and lifted slowly through tight regulation of the jump node.
The distinction between choosing to accept a decision and being forced to accept a decision is quite significant.One and the same with both the GTVA and the Elders though. If the Elders make a decision the average citizen isn't happy with, there's nothing they can do about it. Of course, the average UEF citizen is well educated enough to know that the Elders probably know better than he/she does.
...you realize you're arguing with devs, right ? They didn't chose to believe, they know what they're talking about. They wrote it !
How fortunate that that isn't at all what the GTVA is doing.
I think you severely overestimate the effect the invasion has had. Or the way it was conducted.Sorry, i was under the impression that it was GTVA who was the aggressor (kicking down the door), that it was GTVA that decimated 3rd and wounded 2nd fleets (kills those of your family that tried to kick him out), nuked Luna (throws a grenade into child's room).
With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist.Also, note that the UEF citizens are (on average) highly educated and open-minded. I am fairly certain the GTVA is betting on that for making them understand that now that the war is over, it's better for all humanity if they keep living peacefully. They may not completely enjoy it, but they will be sensible to rational argumentation if the Tevs play their cards right.
Also, educated masses are harder to make revolt than uneducated masses.
The GTVA isn't a military autocracy.
The GTVA isn't a military autocracy.
Wait, I'm confused. Is the GTVA a democracy with authoritarian features or a dictatorship that superficially resembles a democracy? I've heard the devs say both.
From what I understand, the GTVA functions as a democracy, but the military has carte blanche to do anything necessary to ensure the safety and continued survival of the Human and Vasudan species.
While that makes it, technically, a military dicatorship, the military has no reason in peacetime (or at least when the war isn't on GTVA ground) to meddle with civilian affairs, which means that in practice, the GTVA still functions democratically. The GTVA isn't North Korea. Elected civilian leaders are still controlling the daily Tev life, but in an emergency (be it shivan incursion or new insurgency), the military won't have to ask permission before acting accordingly and giving orders around.
Sorry, i was under the impression that it was GTVA who was the aggressor (kicking down the door), that it was GTVA that decimated 3rd and wounded 2nd fleets (kills those of your family that tried to kick him out), nuked Luna (throws a grenade into child's room).Killing fighting soldiers in war is acceptable. As for civilians, if they're collateral damage in a strike on a legitimate military target (and there's no reason to assume it wasn't), that's also acceptable.
Sorry, i was under the impression that it was GTVA who was the aggressor (kicking down the door), that it was GTVA that decimated 3rd and wounded 2nd fleets (kills those of your family that tried to kick him out), nuked Luna (throws a grenade into child's room).Killing fighting soldiers in war is acceptable. As for civilians, if they're collateral damage in a strike on a legitimate military target (and there's no reason to assume it wasn't), that's also acceptable.
If you don't think that makes the bombing of Luna an acceptable military action in a time of war, I'm going to point you to the Jovian scorched earth protocols, which saw populated civilians stations destroyed by the UEF military to deny the Tevs a staging area. Simak station in TBI is an example. Some would say that's actually worse, because at least the civilians on Luna weren't killed by the ones meant to protect them.
In any case, you cannot condemn the GTVA for the former without condemning the UEF for the latter.
Killing (...) is acceptable.No.
gloowa wins the award for most principled and least helpful post in this thread.Thank you.
In my opinion, killing is not acceptable. Ever, under any circumstances, for whatever reason.There's probably no point in doing this, but **** it, I'm going to do it anyway.
In my opinion, killing is not acceptable. Ever, under any circumstances, for whatever reason.
In my opinion, killing is not acceptable. Ever, under any circumstances, for whatever reason.There's probably no point in doing this, but **** it, I'm going to do it anyway.
Killing is most certainly acceptable, and in some cases even desirable, in some situations. Violence is a tool, one that needs to be used very carefully. It's what you use it for that determines whether it's good or bad.
And if you tell me you wouldn't kill one person to prevent them from killing a thousand, then I have nothing but contempt for you.
Here's an interesting question that came up on a similar thread a while back:
Even if the Elders ordered a UEF surrender, would any of the Fleets listen and lay down their arms?
Speaking of Netreba... anyone else notice that ALL documents about him have disappeared from in game? or is my game just borked?
In any case, I would foresee Netreba surrendering for Mars' well being, but possibly not before giving his fleet the chance to "defect" to 3rd fleet.
[...]I really don't think the UEF blew civilians up in their scorched earth protocols. Remember why Artemis station was taken by the GTVA. The UEF didn't blow the station up because there were still civilians on board, that couldn't be evacuated in time.
If you don't think that makes the bombing of Luna an acceptable military action in a time of war, I'm going to point you to the Jovian scorched earth protocols, which saw populated civilians stations destroyed by the UEF military to deny the Tevs a staging area. Simak station in TBI is an example. Some would say that's actually worse, because at least the civilians on Luna weren't killed by the ones meant to protect them.
In any case, you cannot condemn the GTVA for the former without condemning the UEF for the latter.
[...]I really don't think the UEF blew civilians up in their scorched earth protocols. Remember why Artemis station was taken by the GTVA. The UEF didn't blow the station up because there were still civilians on board, that couldn't be evacuated in time.
If you don't think that makes the bombing of Luna an acceptable military action in a time of war, I'm going to point you to the Jovian scorched earth protocols, which saw populated civilians stations destroyed by the UEF military to deny the Tevs a staging area. Simak station in TBI is an example. Some would say that's actually worse, because at least the civilians on Luna weren't killed by the ones meant to protect them.
In any case, you cannot condemn the GTVA for the former without condemning the UEF for the latter.
If they really were as calloused as you say, they wouldn't have stopped (or not started) the self destruction and they wouldn't have sacrificed the Nelson in a hopless attempt to buy time.
I did play it (though I never had to blow it up myself), but I heard team-members saying that TBI isn't fully canon on several occasions, since it's contradicting established data and is more of an easter egg than anything else (apart from proof of concept maybe).
For example in that mission you can jam slash beams, while in the main campaign slashers are the only beam immune to UEF jamming just to point out the most obvious contradiction.
I did play it (though I never had to blow it up myself), but I heard team-members saying that TBI isn't fully canon on several occasions, since it's contradicting established data and is more of an easter egg than anything else (apart from proof of concept maybe).
For example in that mission you can jam slash beams, while in the main campaign slashers are the only beam immune to UEF jamming just to point out the most obvious contradiction.
attack was aimed at industrial plants, broadcast centers, Ubuntu headquarters
Didnt someone say the UEF has some sort of shield system inside their hulls? Like the Structural Integritiy Field from Star Trek?
I dont know if the GTVA is realy THAT superiour. Tbh.: Especially in Fighter terms they seem to lack a bit in comperation.GTVA TEI Wave 2 fighters (Atalanta, Nyx, Draco) are as effective as their Federation equivalents. I personally think they're better, actually (because they're smaller and tougher). Bombers are a whole other story though.
As has been done to death though the UEF military is designed for the unique environment in Sol where ships can be supplied with reloads and fuel quickly. GTVA ships with beam weapons are less reliant on close supply and their fighter craft are cheap superiority fighters designed for independent operations against massed ranks of inferior shivan bombers.
UEF tactics work so well in Sol because they are operating in their optimal environment - without radical redesign of their weapon systems they would quickly run out of ammo in the remote systems where the GTVA intend to fight the shivans. The GTVA want to keep the fight away from their home systems, indeed if GTVA were fighting the Shivans in their home systems then the fight would already be lost as the GTVA strategy is designed around containing the enemy untill the systems can be shut.
He means do they have enough fireships in each system on standby to quick-response any shivans detected entering the area.
Which... was covered in my answer ? Can you ever have enough meson fireships to stop a Shivan Incursion ?
2) It's not a matter of how many ships you have to fit them with meson bombs, it's a matter of how many meson bombs you can produce to fit them in the ships.
I don't really get Matth's reasoning here. It has been canon since FS2 that meson-bombing the nodes is the only proven solution GTVA has in its armory against shivaggedon, [...]I'm not so sure about that.
I don't really get Matth's reasoning here. It has been canon since FS2 that meson-bombing the nodes is the only proven solution GTVA has in its armory against shivaggedon, [...]I'm not so sure about that.
While I agree with most of your post, there is one thing I'd like to point out.
We don't know if the Shivans ever tried to get ouf of Capella and further into GTVA terretory, with the exception of the few ships that attacked the Bastion, but those can hardly be called a serious attack force.
So while severing the nodes sure has the best chance of stopping the Shivans, it can't be taken for granted.
Also as far as availability of meson technology goes. In addition to the points Luis Dias already mentioned, remember that all the TEI cap-ships run with meson reactors. That would indicate that the GTVA can quite easily build new meson-based equipment, which would include the bombs.