Uh, no. We still have the same natural capabilities as humans from 1500 BC; all of our power comes from technology.
The Vishnans and Shivans, on the other hand, are just naturally far more powerful than we could ever hope to be.
I am aware of the possibility that a future revelation will contradict that.
I think what Apollo meant (I could be wrong) is that since the Shivans are basically living supercomputers and the Vishnans are energy beings, their "natural forms" are more capable than ours, as we are composed of mere flesh and bone. Correct me if I misinterpreted you, Apollo.Yeah basically.
On this point, however, we do not know if the Shivans and Vishnans were always like this. Given the direction BP is going, I'm willing to guess that extensive technological restructuring was involved in turning the Vishnans and Shivans into what they are now, rather than, say, energy beings "naturally" arising.
We had an entire thread dedicated to explaining that Blue Planet has nothing supernatural in it. I'm not saying that the Vishnans and Shivans are supernatural or gods, just that they resemble gods, or at least higher life forms.
I do not see how you, a reasonable person, can possibly believe this. We had an entire thread devoted to explaining this to you.
You honestly believe, having played all the Blue Planet missions released so far, that the Vishnans and Shivans have no technological capabilities?
The Vishnans and Shivans obviously have very advanced technology. That said, can humans naturally exist outside of time and space, have complete or nearly complete knowledge of past and future, or subvert the minds of lesser beings with their natural abilites?
They aren't gods but they display quite a few abilities that belong to them in mythology and fiction.
All I'm arguing is that some things in BP feel mystical and resemble traditional fantasy elements, not that they actually are. Why does this irritate you so much?
Because you haven't thought about it enough to realize it's internally inconsistent and that annoys me. How do you know the Vishnans and Shivans can 'naturally' exist outside of time and space? Can a ship 'naturally' float on water? Does an airplane 'naturally' fly? Why, they must be gods; flight is a traditional fantasy element
Here's an assertion for you to chew on:Well, that interests me.
The capabilities of both the Vishnans and Shivans are logical consequences of what we understand about the universe today.
That makes them science fiction. Science fiction attempts to predict or extrapolate.
This bug affects the 3.6.16 stable release, and all other builds prior to the newest nightly build.
Whoa ... how long has it been like this? Are we talking about all the way since 3.6.12? Or even before?
After playing BP1 I remember not liking the whole vishnan thing, because from our perspective as a human they do appear to be gods. They dictate what's right and what's wrong, they are all knowing, they are all powerful etc. More importantly, they are unexplained. They are just that force that seems to bring 'balance', a cheap plot point to connect the last puzzle piece.
So now in tenebra, we see the vishnans in a new light. They are the alien race who uses their technological dominace to act as gods, and from our perspective, their technology appears godlike. For some reason I can go for that a lot more easily. While the mechanism they use to make their bodies pure energy is still essentially unexplained, the whole smokes and mirrors style presentation of them leads me to believe that they are just presenting themselves as something greater than what they actually are, capitalising on the primative understanding of both the GTVA and the UEF.
a subspace stack entity, a sophisticated construct that exploits energy gradients in subspace to perform computation and cognition. Because subspace surrounds and connects universes, this entity exists outside time and space, and is capable of observing the entire space-time bulk. This grants it complete knowledge of all events past and future, although this knowledge may be hampered by quantum uncertainty. The origin of this entity is unknown, but we believe it may be artificial in nature.
Do you ever think about Nagari? What it means? A technology made to interface sentient minds across a subspace manifold...it's the kind of thing I imagine a powerful civilization building. To bind themselves together.
Interesting. A lot of people seem to share your views on this. Just to stir the pot though, I on the other hand liked them in AoA when they were mysterious and unknowable, trying to help us, even. WiH has turned them into yet another villian out to complete their own agenda, which makes me sad. :(
Even without the benefit of cheats like CTC computation, the resources available to advanced civilizations in the FreeSpace universe should make a hard takeoff singularity feasible. It's interesting to wonder why that hasn't occurred.
Interesting. A lot of people seem to share your views on this. Just to stir the pot though, I on the other hand liked them in AoA when they were mysterious and unknowable, trying to help us, even. WiH has turned them into yet another villian out to complete their own agenda, which makes me sad. :(
Has WiH actually changed anything about the Vishnans? All that's different is that you now have two perspectives on them, rather than one. Why do you think they're not trying to help you?
This thread is entertaining, It reminds me of that one episode of the show "party down"
I remember extracting the Vishnan audio files and listening to them all the time. :D
One thing though...Spoiler:If the Nagari Dream can be interpreted as a visual metaphor for the information Laporte's brain is receiving, does that mean that the GD is within the Shivan mind hive? Like a computer Worm in a (Nagari) network?
Also, do we still need spoiler tags in this thread?
"The Shivans weren't created. They were calculated into existence." Calculated. By what / whom?
The Vishnans are essentially the highest form of sentient life known following the First Apocalypse. The Great Darkness is the counterpoint to that - while it can never destroy the Shivans, the Shivans are a mathematical tool that ensures the ongoing preservation of all sentient life; while it cannot fight the Great Darkness, it can't destroy it either. Meanwhile, humanity must be the potential Nagari link by which the Great Darkness could destroy all sentient life, Vishnans included. The Shivans are unable by their nature to accept that outcome.
Its a pretty good interpretation but if we consider humanity (or any other sentient life capable of nagari) an entry point for the great darkness I find it hard to believe in context that the shivans would've stopped the attack after the first war and would've simply made sure nothing remained that could endanger the universe which seems to be their greatest concern.
Granted... the vishnan seem to have a plan (that eventually fails) at that point the best scenario for the shivans still remains to cleans our area of space,
Bosch doesn't seem like a convincing enough figure to persuade them otherwise, for the shivans what is another 10.000 years wait to find some other species that hasn't already failed once.
Its a pretty good interpretation but if we consider humanity (or any other sentient life capable of nagari) an entry point for the great darkness I find it hard to believe in context that the shivans would've stopped the attack after the first war and would've simply made sure nothing remained that could endanger the universe which seems to be their greatest concern.
That's somewhat contradicted by the Bei flashback to the alternate universe.
It what is so fun about the way this is set up. We can all have about a thousand different ideas about how this is going to end an we will probably still get it wrong. :)That's because after we tire with speculations BP team reads all those threads and changes story so that no one would be right, so that everyone has the same surprise and excitement from discovering the story ;)
This isn't homestuck. The overall plot for BP has been set down for years.
RE:The vishnans plans
I have always been under the impression that the Vishnans knew exactly what they were doing in arranging the circumstances at the start of the war.
... the Shivans are a guaranteed mathematical outcome in any parallel universe throughout all temporal points.
That leads me to believe that the so-called Great Darkness is an external 'infection' with universe-destroying consequences that the Shivans can't actually deal with. Ken alludes to this - talking about the consequences being catastrophic when discussing the randomized, non-efficient action of the Shivans. He implies that to be rational and methodical is to be predictable and the outcome of the Shivans behaving in that manner would be essentially unspeakable. Therefore, I think the Great Darkness is a force of chaos that destroys sentience.
The Shivans exist to preserve sentient life through their heuristics. The Vishnans are essentially the highest form of sentient life known following the First Apocalypse. The Great Darkness is the counterpoint to that - while it can never destroy the Shivans, the Shivans are a mathematical tool that ensures the ongoing preservation of all sentient life; while it cannot fight the Great Darkness, it can't destroy it either. Meanwhile, humanity must be the potential Nagari link by which the Great Darkness could destroy all sentient life, Vishnans included. The Shivans are unable by their nature to accept that outcome.
I could be totally off base here, but I keep getting hung up on the biological parallels in the text of the Shivans and Ken which liken the universe as a whole to an immensely complex organism (The Shivans even talk about containment to the Orion arm).
Your talk of fractals has my inner (and outer) mathematician wincing.
reactivate dormant cull component. force binary outcome: xenocultural integration or extermination. terminal protocol assessment underway.
Animae are not created and destroyed once their purpose has been fulfilled, they do have a continuity of memories etc.
It's just that most of the time, they are slumbering, like a specialized program that is only started when there is demand, and then shut down once it is completed.
Ancients 1
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further, spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months, the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.
Ancients 1
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further, spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months, the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.
Your talk of fractals has my inner (and outer) mathematician wincing.
I didn't say anything wrong.
Your post is quite intriguing and interesting, but I am not able to follow this last modus ponens. So if the reason why the Shivans are erratic and inneficient is because they cannot be rational or methodical (and thus predictable), why is it necessary a third force, now one of Chaos, to be detrimental to the destruction of sentience? Taking the premisse for granted, I'd say the Shivans are the perfect example of such a force of Chaos. And while I understand how the Shivans suddenly behaving rationally could be disastrous to the universe (some interesting plot point), I really don't understand your "Therefore GD is chaos that destroys sentience".
Some very cool ideas behind this incoherent bungle of words, Ryan. Why are you so sure of the Shivan's purpose? And if that is true, and if it is also true that the Shivans are a "mathematical consequence of the laws of the universe", then one should question why the universe is so "anthropically principled" (or more rigorously, sentient principled). I'd also question your "ensures the ongoing preservation of all sentient life". Clearly the Ancients and the almost total wiping out of humanity and the vasudans falsify this notion completely.
Lastly, I think your idea about humanity being a nagari backdoor for the GD is a very interesting and worthy idea. I'll keep it in mind.
That's cute. I would however not try to see the plot like that, it kinda diminishes the scope and ruins the vertigo by converting the whole thing into a simplistic organic metaphor or analogy. Given all that has been said and the jargon shared by Battuta I'd argue that they are trying to write something much, much deeper than that.
Do not respond! MP-Ryan must suffer the pain of not knowing! He must suffer like us! >;L
They're also sentient by definition. By all accounts they're self-aware and capable of free action and rational response.
The Shivans are definitely a species. Remember Thorn's analogy; the Shivans are to humans as humans are to protein chains; when the molecular structure of the Shivans are described as biomechanical it's done in the same way that one might describe the chemical structure of DNA. The mere fact that CASSANDRA is stated to be a dead Shivan implies that Shivans are alive.
They're also sentient by definition. By all accounts they're self-aware and capable of free action and rational response. The question is whether or not they're sapient, and I think their ability to interpret the Protocol differently than the Vishnans is evidence that they are.
Intelligence exists independently of sentience. Or it can in theory, at least. I suspect the Shivans are an example of this. All of their behaviour in the canonical FS universe and now BP speaks of great intelligence, but without sentient rationality.What does Shivans being intelligent but not sentient actually mean? Is it something testable? What are the consequences? Same for humans being both.
Intelligent in the sense of cognitive, capable of abstract reasoning and planning, but not sentient in the sense of self-aware or cognizant of their own existence.
Intelligent in the sense of cognitive, capable of abstract reasoning and planning, but not sentient in the sense of self-aware or cognizant of their own existence.That sounds a bit too abstract for me to reason about, but I'm glad I'm aware of my own shortcomings...
So how do we conclude or prove they aren't self-aware? What's the crucial observable thing they don't do?
Imagine (as a very simple example) your computer. It is capable of algorithmic problem solving of all sorts; it can even (sort of) modify itself. It has memory and the ability to rearrange that memory. But it has no idea that it exists; it lacks any qualia, any sense that anything means anything. It thinks but it does not think about itself thinking.By "capable of problem-solving" I meant of course capable of solving novel problems. That's a rather vaguely defined concept, but still I'm sure my computer doesn't qualify.
Batts probably won't answer this because he's on the BP team, but I will - a big indicator of the Shivans lack of sentience is their absence of fear. Fear is the ultimate investment in self-awareness (though it exists as a form of instinct in organisms that don't demonstrate higher-level sentience as well). To fear for oneself is the ultimate acknowledgement of self - and the existential realities of life - because it isn't possible without thinking about oneself. The Shivans don't do that - indeed, they point out in their conversation with the Vishnans that Bei observed that they are eternal.Ok, I agree, fear is an interesting indicator of something. For example, if a computer started to fear for it's existence even if it weren't programmed to do so, one would certainly find that remarkable (especially so if Kubrick made a film of it). On the other hand, humans are programmed quite thoroughly to fear for their own existence, and surely we would consider a completely fearless human being to still be sentient?
There is nothing in BP:WiH and the Universal Truth mission in particular to demonstrate Shivan sentience.I don't know, they talk about themselves and their decisions a lot. They compare themselves to the Vishnans.
Imagine (as a very simple example) your computer. It is capable of algorithmic problem solving of all sorts; it can even (sort of) modify itself. It has memory and the ability to rearrange that memory. But it has no idea that it exists; it lacks any qualia, any sense that anything means anything. It thinks but it does not think about itself thinking.By "capable of problem-solving" I meant of course capable of solving novel problems. That's a rather vaguely defined concept, but still I'm sure my computer doesn't qualify.
If it were a bit more intelligent, if we were talking for example about my cat, how would you know it doesn't think about itself thinking? That's why I'm asking about observable things. Of course I have vague intuitive ideas about the way people use those words and I think I know why I call myself self-aware.
So what about the Shivans? Do they have any idea they exist? They walk and talk as if they did. I don't know whether they think it, but I've no idea what does it mean for the Shivans to think anything.
Thank you Mars for having contributed precisely nothing to the argument that sentience can be observed (or "observable") except to say that it can.
The Shivans are not sentient, :v: evidence is Hallfight, where they just throw themselves at the GTA troops. No sense of self preservation.
The Shivans are not sentient, :v: evidence is Hallfight, where they just throw themselves at the GTA troops. No sense of self preservation.
Humans are not sentient. RL evidence is the Normandy landing in WW2, where they just throw themselves at the german fortifications. No sense of self-preservation.
Or so it seemed to the germans in any case (the accounts of allied survivors may differ). But that's the point: The 'proof' of shivan non-sentience depends on the biased viewpoint of the GTA defenders. What if they simply didn't see the shivan moral problems because they were distracted by those shivans that were still attacking? What if shivan fear materialises in a fashion the average GTA grunt doesn't recognise? What if the 'shivans' are just remote controlled drones? What if the shivans were all drugged out of their mind? What if some shivan super leader simply gave a really rousing speech just before that battle?That's not to mention that the puny little pink things with primitive ballistic weaponry really aren't much to be feared compared to the Great Darkness. You may as well call humans nonsentient for stepping on ants.
Thank you Mars for having contributed precisely nothing to the argument that sentience can be observed (or "observable") except to say that it can.
Excuse me, I mistyped, I meant to say organized problem solving without consciousness. Now, explain to me how your post was in any way constructive to anything. While my post certainly wasn't the most useful here, I find your attitude as its presented here grating.
I understand the point about the Shivans being the unsentient "hyper-intelligent" species capable of performing heuristics and so on. But there are some inconsistencies and contradictions in your description. You cannot both say that the Shivans follow an algorithm, an heuristic, a "method", and then that they are "irrational and therefore unpredictable". This becomes obvious once you start your attempt to describe their heuristic (the whole paragraph about comm nodes is especially good on this). Well, if you are so able to understand it, then it stops being so irrational and unpredictable. If they have purpose and an heuristic to achieve it, they hardly seem random to me.
This is true even if you add the "behave randomly on this issue and on that issue" heuristic on some parts of their whole "programming", for to the Shivan heuristic to have *any* efficiency at all, it must have a great part of a rational and predictable portion to it.
There are some interesting caveats that give you good reasons for your theories. The fact that they are "unpredictable" is not, IMO, a strategic benefit, because such behavior does not arise from superior analysis and intelligence, but otherwise from utter stupidity and arbitrariness. However, the fact that the Shivans are both eternal and almost omnipresent in the universe may well allow them to completely not give a **** about any game theory at all, and they really wouldn't give a damn if they lost a thousand more resources than the minimally required to perform their functions.
Having written that above, I feel quite unsatisfied with my reasonings.
Your computer can solve novel problems within a narrow range. The human mind can also do this, in a much broader range, but that capability is not necessarily tied to consciousness. Another great example MP-Ryan gave is the human immune system, which runs through a set of heuristics to solve novel problems, often very effectively. It is highly intelligent - but it has no consciousness; it does not know it exists.I'd never have considered the algorithms in my computer general enough to be considered intelligent at all. The immune system is an interesting example, but what I find confusing are still higher forms of intelligence. To take for example the Chinese room thought experiment, can the difference between a system that speaks Mandarin and a Mandarin speaker who we believe understands it really be a qualitative one? It is important to keep in mind that afaik we still don't have a system capable of the 'easy' part, syntax of a natural language. Formally manipulating semantics, and on a higher level still pragmatics is I believe still beyond our wildest dreams.
I'm talking about anything really. Defining consciousness in terms of what something thinks is defining an unknown term in (for me) unknown terms. Now that's probably my problem and what I'm doing here is questioning the basics of the philosophy of mind, which someone knowledgeable enough could find somewhat annoying, but oh well. I guess I had to end up on the other side of that fence eventually.QuoteSo what about the Shivans? Do they have any idea they exist? They walk and talk as if they did. I don't know whether they think it, but I've no idea what does it mean for the Shivans to think anything.
Are you talking about the Shivans in general, or a Shivan anima?
See why I say the Shivans are a non-sentient hyperintelligent immune system?Yes, and the additional info on the human immune system is very interesting.
Really? It's a full-length novel, unless you're a speed-reader, it will take considerably longer.
And given that it's rather demanding....
Yeah, probably I was speed reading... it wasn't demanding at all.
Although I wouldn't call it a "full lenght novel". I'd reserve that kind of category to the likes of Tolstoi or Dostoievsky.
The human immune system is quite a unique beast. It isn't a species - all the cells that make up the immune system are human. But the system itself doesn't think. It isn't self-aware. However, it demonstrates remarkable traits of "intelligence" in spite of that. The system communicates among trillions of other cells in the body, independently of them. It adapts to new problems as they are detected. It demonstrates remarkable capacity for memory and learning. Each immune response to a similar threat is faster and more specific than the previous one. But, it's behaviour isn't predictable because it is randomized. The immune system doesn't compare each foreign threat to others and adapt previous responses to a new threat. Instead, it begins with a broad-based, randomized response that, as an infection procedes, becomes progressively narrower until it develops exactly the right response for that particular infection. It stores that response in a built-in cell-mediated memory to be used again should the same threat re-emerge. If the nature of the threat changes, the immune system doesn't respond with the previous tried and true method - it starts from scratch. The immune system is also eternal - so long as the human organism that houses it exists, the immune system will exist. It has no care for specific organs, or mental state, loss of limb, or other infirmities. It's heuristic-set purpose is to destroy entities that threaten its host organism. It has no care for the host, and it will continue to produce the cells necessary to its function so long as there are resources available to produce those cells and can continue to do so even after the host human being is functionally dead - both heart and brain cease to function.
See why I say the Shivans are a non-sentient hyperintelligent immune system?
So the doctors say they are "random".
The Vishnans are (I quote from AoA)Quotea subspace stack entity [...] This grants it complete knowledge of all events past and future, although this knowledge may be hampered by quantum uncertainty.
how did an unintelligent species that is merely a bunch of heuristics even survived for so long?You are assuming the Shivans have no intelligence... yet the fact they mastered Subspace shenanigans and have a role in keeping the universe tidy implies the exact opposite.
I simply dont belive that there is something out there that can not be defeated. Maybee not right now, not with what we know, but at some point there has to be a a way to overcome the shivans.
So the doctors say they are "random".
1) What? No we don't :P
Observable signs are pretty reliable (ie. not random) information of what's going on in the body because we're on a sufficient level to be able to decode the information. What you probably meant was a macrophage omnoming something and a cell nearby goes wtf is this guy doing.
2) The immune system is pretty awesome at adapting to new encounters with different antigens. It's the basis behind vaccination.
The immune system does not care if it wins or loses, game theory and etc., I agree. But the reason it doesn't have to care about that stuff is because the natural selection already did that job for it. The culling of most types of immune systems by the culling of the genes that generate them has happened throughtout natural history, and we cannot say the same about the Shivans, unless the following is true:
- We live in a kind of natural selection megaverse where the survival of the universe is required to make "child universes" (ala Smolin, etc.);
- The Shivan system is anti-fragile itself, and unlike the immune system, it actually learns, adapts and alters itself with every encounter with any other species
Which, despite my irritation at the GTVA for invading and being somewhat solidly on the side of the UEF before actually puts me on the side of - oddly-enough - a combined approach of both the GTVA and Laporte/Fedayeen now. The GTVA's Shivan paranoia is going to get everyone killed, so I'm thinking seriously that Ken is right-ish about Laporte being the best option for ensuring humanity's survival.
I keep coming back to the line about the Shivans not being made, but calculated. Nothing "made" immune systems - they were a consequence of natural selection in the host organism which have now partially detached their evolution from the host. I think the Shivans are the same thing, on the scale of the Universe itself. They were a probabilistic outcome of the creation of the Universe.