Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: FireSpawn on March 08, 2013, 10:36:08 am
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/9917189/MEPs-to-vote-on-EU-ban-on-all-forms-of-pornography.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/9917189/MEPs-to-vote-on-EU-ban-on-all-forms-of-pornography.html)
Not quite sure if being trolled by the EU, or if they genuinely want to take on the internet.
But on a more serious note, I am intrested to see where this thread may go.
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Innovative Crimes Investigation Unit go!
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I find it hard to care about feminism when its proponents want to establish state sex censors. Apparently only women are degraded by being sexualized and men never are.
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best thing is the gist of the article is that they are only targeting porn involving women, porn objectifying men is fine :lol:
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pitiful
modern "feminism" is a disgrace to humanity
it is as Nuke said once (paraphrased)
stop dividing my ****ing species
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I find it hard to care about feminism when its proponents want to establish state sex censors. Apparently only women are degraded by being sexualized and men never are.
pitiful
modern "feminism" is a disgrace to humanity
it is as Nuke said once (paraphrased)
stop dividing my ****ing species
I'm having an incredibly hard time coming up with any response longer than *Sneeeeeeeeeeeeeer*
Maybe I should add more characters?
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I find it hard to care about feminism when its proponents want to establish state sex censors. Apparently only women are degraded by being sexualized and men never are.
pitiful
modern "feminism" is a disgrace to humanity
it is as Nuke said once (paraphrased)
stop dividing my ****ing species
Yeah dudes, I find it hard to care about 'democracy' when it votes to ban porn, 'democracy' is a disgrace to humanity
Feminism isn't monolithic, and I think most modern feminists have no particular problem with porn as a concept, though probably quite a few issues with its mainstream implementation. Maybe you guys will catch on to the fact that it's not a hive mind.
I'm a little baffled by the double failure to stumble on a couple basic thoughts here. One is that the actions of a few European MPs don't speak for feminists everywhere. Another one is - unless I'm missing something? - the pretty basic concept that 'all forms of pornography' is going to include gay porn, which is all about objectifying men.
I dunno, guys, convince me that Starslayer's post isn't the only good one in this thread. (e: and suangadon)
This ban is stupid and won't work, though. Everybody wants porn, they should be focusing on trying to make it better.
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(http://s4.postimage.org/mxis09cbh/freedom_eu_joke.jpg)
:p
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Battuta, Suongadon: I was referring to this:
The MEPs are also demanding the establishment of state sex censors with "a mandate to impose effective sanctions on companies and individuals promoting the sexualisation of girls".
not anything porn related. I'm not saying sexualization of girls is necessarily a good thing, but to my un-developed, grunting male forebrain they seem to be saying its only bad for women to be sexualized and not men.
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**** you cvnts i swear
all this me me me bull****. bunch of ****ing soft cvnts who've never spokent o a girl in their life. 'hurr durr feminism is out to get me!' 'girls ar eout to get me!' 'girls are all wirtches oooooooo!'
'i find it hard to respect the concept that women are able to advocate for their equality to men
ehehheheheh
i'm so smrt
'feministm is a disgrace to humaaaaanity'
OWNEN SHOUDL BE IN THE KITCHEN ND LOCKED UP YEEEEEEEEAH
honestly. **** you guys. **** you guys in all orifices honestly. ****ing sick to eath of reding this ****. ****ing, if you ****s think that gender equality where it's possible and respecting the fact that the genders are in unequal and different positions is a bad thing, you guys need to get a head check. this makes us look like the ****ing misc fellas. the misc is full of foreveralones in an alphamale culture.
let's not do that. yeah?
we're all ****ing mature adults. women are adults, just like men. none of this 'ooh feminists are out to get me'. i'm a feminst you ****. so is battuta. so is every other **** that thinks the advocacy of femr0ns equal to menr0ns is a good thing. and the deconstruction fo all this bullchit in society like thier image and stereotypes and that ****.
let's not make cvnts think that we're a boycs club who like th e'old way' of doing things.
also let's not make the mistake of feminism = females>men. let's do some reaind g and talk about this rationally. srs.
cliffs: whenver i hear some cvtnt talk about how much they hate feminism, i laugh and then lament at how out of touch they are wtih modern feminism. fellas i don't rant and rave about ...fuarking....nuclear physics on my half assed knowledge of it, i keep my ****ing mouth shut and let the battutas of the physics world talk.
'hurr durr the feminists want to take away our pr00000ns'!
because as battuta sad, 'feminists are all monolithic and homogenous' oooooooooooo
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real cliffs:
- this is stupid. boejctively. pr0n is pr0n and we should look at it like how batts said.
- let's not pin this on a legitimate social movement that has moved beyond its second wave.
- let's be adults.
-let's please not be like the misc. section of bodybuilding.com.
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The best drunkposts.
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Well not to belabor, but it is true that the problem of "sexualisation" is quite skewed in terms of gender in our public sphere. Although it has been more in the past. Nowadays it seems to be more and more common to see the usual apollonian shirt stripped guy in ads / shows / movies / etc.
And more generally, the EU is quite simply a ****ed up system. Instead of dealing with the real issues of economic meltdown / collapse of millions of families being disposed into unemployment hell, all these ****ing idiots apparently do is get new ways to censor the citizens, to forbid them to ingest X, Y or Z, to rule new regulations, etc.,etc. I'm having enough of this ****ing Europe.
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Wow Dilmah, what concise, readable, and hyperbole-free posts about what I horrible man I am for disagreeing with the very tail end of this article.
Cliffs: Stop talking and come back when you're sober and able to converse in something other than a drunken rant that makes you look like the leftist version of a Fox News watcher.
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**** you cvnts i swear
all this me me me bull****. bunch of ****ing soft cvnts who've never spokent o a girl in their life. 'hurr durr feminism is out to get me!' 'girls ar eout to get me!' 'girls are all wirtches oooooooo!'
'i find it hard to respect the concept that women are able to advocate for their equality to men
ehehheheheh
i'm so smrt
'feministm is a disgrace to humaaaaanity'
OWNEN SHOUDL BE IN THE KITCHEN ND LOCKED UP YEEEEEEEEAH
honestly. **** you guys. **** you guys in all orifices honestly. ****ing sick to eath of reding this ****. ****ing, if you ****s think that gender equality where it's possible and respecting the fact that the genders are in unequal and different positions is a bad thing, you guys need to get a head check. this makes us look like the ****ing misc fellas. the misc is full of foreveralones in an alphamale culture.
let's not do that. yeah?
we're all ****ing mature adults. women are adults, just like men. none of this 'ooh feminists are out to get me'. i'm a feminst you ****. so is battuta. so is every other **** that thinks the advocacy of femr0ns equal to menr0ns is a good thing. and the deconstruction fo all this bullchit in society like thier image and stereotypes and that ****.
let's not make cvnts think that we're a boycs club who like th e'old way' of doing things.
also let's not make the mistake of feminism = females>men. let's do some reaind g and talk about this rationally. srs.
cliffs: whenver i hear some cvtnt talk about how much they hate feminism, i laugh and then lament at how out of touch they are wtih modern feminism. fellas i don't rant and rave about ...fuarking....nuclear physics on my half assed knowledge of it, i keep my ****ing mouth shut and let the battutas of the physics world talk.
'hurr durr the feminists want to take away our pr00000ns'!
because as battuta sad, 'feminists are all monolithic and homogenous' oooooooooooo
Uh... what...?
Oh well, it looks funny. Could use a few of these little guys I think...
:hopping: :hopping: :hopping: :hopping: :hopping:
:D
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will reply when sober
poease replace the use of cvnt in my post with dick on a roughly 50/50 basis. actually nah **** it. gonna use search and replce/destroy and fix that chit
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Wow Dilmah, what concise, readable, and hyperbole-free posts about what I horrible man I am for disagreeing with the very tail end of this article.
Cliffs: Stop talking and come back when you're sober and able to converse in something other than a drunken rant that makes you look like the leftist version of a Fox News watcher.
Punctuation aside it's actually pretty reasonable and level headed outside of that one paragraph, which, hey, is at least true to how most women I know feel most of the time :colbert:
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It is a little funny that out of the myriad of issues this raises in terms of censorship/suppression of rights, enforcement, a lack of focus by the EU on economic issues, "woe is me these feminists ruining my life" gets first dibs.
The Fuzz is gonna raid me flat an' take me fabber!
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So Battuta, you're just going to accept that I'm being lumped into this one massive category of "evil women-haters" from what, two, three posts? I'm honestly not sure how to respond to you at this point since it seems like you have your mind made up about me and probably aren't going to change it (since we both know how people respond to ideas contrary to their beliefs).
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for ****s sak ebrother
you've made the fundamental farkin error of assuming that feminism is one farkin homogenous movement for farks sake. read my farken post you cvnt. it's ****ing diverse as ****. to pin this on the whole movement is ****ing like battuta's OP in this thread hey. ****ing read it.
like i no w i'm not being so nice and shkt, but seriously i am thinking nicely. i'm just ****ign out of patience hey. this is so ****ing ridiculous that people think feminism is homogenous and worse yet, some unified movement AGAINST emn. farks sake.
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He's giving you ****, dude, pretty much exactly in line with the first few posts in this thread except turned around. He's even drunk! Just roll with the punches.
You're not going to die if someone insults you on the internet, let alone if someone calls you a mature adult and advocates the deconstruction of stereotypes in society and cautions against looking like a boy's club. That's not super hard medicine to swallow.
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It is a little funny that out of the myriad of issues this raises in terms of censorship/suppression of rights, enforcement, a lack of focus by the EU on economic issues, "woe is me these feminists ruining my life" gets first dibs.
BS, that was my first reaction as well.
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He's giving you ****, dude, pretty much exactly in line with the first few posts in this thread except turned around. He's even drunk! Just roll with the punches.
You're not going to die if someone insults you on the internet, let alone if someone calls you a mature adult and advocates the deconstruction of stereotypes in society and cautions against looking like a boy's club. That's not super hard medicine to swallow.
^what he said.
i'm not trying to seriously rip you and make you want to picck up your bad antd ball and go home. i don't think it's the case over there, but in aus, as our auz posters can attest to, cvnt is basically a term of endearment. which is symptomatic of some strong underlying sexism (we are after all a noritously conservativ ecountry, especialy my aprticular state), but hopefully it shoudl at least appear to be used in irony, given the context yeah?
i just think that this is a really tired old line that's tortted out and that we on haych ell pee don't evn need that. w'ere above this. we're mature adults who can educate ourselves on social movements and not make ourselves look like, as i said, an ol boys club and promote an image of ourselves that's tolerant, not founded on making uninformed opinions on things nad welcomin to people regardless of theri sex. if we start rippin into a movement that is undoubtedly FOR the equality of females to malesin areas where there is inequality (adn sure there are examples where the momentum of feminism has been executed inways that are't great, .e.g greer), we're not seding a great message out of ourselve, are we lads?
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It's not as if "modern" feminism is any worse (or better) than old school. There are some ghastly examples from the past as well.
Feminism has nothing to do with this. This is a case of stupidity / jackassery / snobbism / elitism / dictatorial ****tanigan. It just so *happens* that it is justified by some feminism jargon. Just like any other cases of jackassery from bureaucrats are justified by liberalism, compassion, environmentalism and other non-bad ideas per se.
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yeah that
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meh to feminism, masculism, and whatever new movement arises in the future.
I wonder if ppl choose to care about this so called problems when there's clearly other more pressing and disturbing ones in the world to worry about.
edit: and on the subject, how are they gonna shut down the entire internet?. porn is probably one of the main motivators behind internet.
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meh to feminism, masculism, and whatever new movement arises in the future.
I wonder if ppl choose to care about this so called problems when there's clearly other more pressing and disturbing ones in the world to worry about.
Not really dude, the welfare of some 51% of the human race is a pretty big issue
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He's giving you ****, dude, pretty much exactly in line with the first few posts in this thread except turned around. He's even drunk! Just roll with the punches.
You're not going to die if someone insults you on the internet, let alone if someone calls you a mature adult and advocates the deconstruction of stereotypes in society and cautions against looking like a boy's club. That's not super hard medicine to swallow.
^what he said.
i'm not trying to seriously rip you and make you want to picck up your bad antd ball and go home. i don't think it's the case over there, but in aus, as our auz posters can attest to, cvnt is basically a term of endearment. which is symptomatic of some strong underlying sexism (we are after all a noritously conservativ ecountry, especialy my aprticular state), but hopefully it shoudl at least appear to be used in irony, given the context yeah?
i just think that this is a really tired old line that's tortted out and that we on haych ell pee don't evn need that. w'ere above this. we're mature adults who can educate ourselves on social movements and not make ourselves look like, as i said, an ol boys club and promote an image of ourselves that's tolerant, not founded on making uninformed opinions on things nad welcomin to people regardless of theri sex. if we start rippin into a movement that is undoubtedly FOR the equality of females to malesin areas where there is inequality (adn sure there are examples where the momentum of feminism has been executed inways that are't great, .e.g greer), we're not seding a great message out of ourselve, are we lads?
Wait! You go around cursing like a truck driver and calling people ****s, in something unintelligible that bears a vague resemblance to English... and you have the profanity filter turned ON!?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA :wakka:
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mate i didn't want to spare out profanity filtered members from my tirade :D
meh to feminism, masculism, and whatever new movement arises in the future.
I wonder if ppl choose to care about this so called problems when there's clearly other more pressing and disturbing ones in the world to worry about.
Not really dude, the welfare of some 51% of the human race is a pretty big issue
****in this. if we actually access the potential of that 51% of the huan race and do our best to empower them the same way we do implicitly and explicityly the other 49% we might stand a far better chance than we think of resolvin dem 'big issues'. also you'll find that the relevance of gender inequality as a 'thing' runs right the way through from the united states to ****ing ethiopia.
it's a thing. by pretending it doesn't we only add another voice tryign to delegimitse srs issues.
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This is a stupid, short-sighted bill and is highly likely doomed to flaming failure. That said, it is also a troubling step towards censorship of the internet, especially as the bill would emplace a broad-spectrum "ban". Because censoring popular media with massively broad strokes couldn't possibly backfire in any way, right?
At any rate, that's my 2 cents and this will be a drive-by post before I get my face eaten in the crossfire. Toodles.
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/Ironcitadel99/parkourcreed-1.gif)
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Well battuta, it is super hard medicine to swallow since I actually try to avoid being a dick to women, fully support them pursuing whatever occupation they want, and personally dislike all the stereotypes of them as sexed-up sluts who can't do **** without a man present. I just didn't like how the sexualization of women was being singled out with no concern for any male sexualization. If lingerie stores can't have slim, sexy lingerie models because that objectifies women/creates an unreasonable standard then I shouldn't be forced to look at the ripped and chiseled Hanes models when I go buy underwear for the exact same reasons.
Is that better?
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It would be better if you realized that is an argument for feminism, yes, since feminism is all about examining the damage done by a gendered power structure.
You could also examine why you're angry about that in the first place, since this attempt to ban porn (stupid as it is) would target a vast amount of porn that objectifies men.
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Time will tell if this will improve that 51%'s welfare, I for one think it's not about it at all and that the fight should be taken to another level. Yet it's not a bad thing that they want to do this.
Anyway, we could agree that woman presented as sexual objects is far from having been originated on some obscure internet site.
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:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I never, ever said anything about the pornography aspect (please people I am not arguing about the porn here at all) and in fact went out of my way to specifically quote the one section that I was taking the most offense tp:
The MEPs are also demanding the establishment of state sex censors with "a mandate to impose effective sanctions on companies and individuals promoting the sexualisation of girls".
as that clearly makes no reference to male sexualization and IMO seems degrading to women as I believe it says they can't handle being sexual.
There, is that better, Battuta?
(And no, you'll never get me to admit to feminism. I'm just an anti-gender-discriminationist. :P)
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Time will tell if this will improve that 51%'s welfare
Nobody in this thread has really said it will
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I never, ever said anything about the pornography aspect (please people I am not arguing about the porn here at all) and in fact went out of my way to specifically quote the one section that I was taking the most offense tp:
The MEPs are also demanding the establishment of state sex censors with "a mandate to impose effective sanctions on companies and individuals promoting the sexualisation of girls".
as that clearly makes no reference to male sexualization and IMO seems degrading to women as I believe it says they can't handle being sexual.
There, is that better, Battuta?
(And no, you'll never get me to admit to feminism. I'm just an anti-gender-discriminationist. :P)
Yeah, that's better. And it's good to see you calling yourself a feminist by the principle of identity!
It's a little sick how disgusting the anti-feminist pushback of the last twenty years has been at convincing people they can believe in every single tenet of feminism but oh god NO i'm not a feminist, I don't want to be associated with those hairy-legged harpies
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(And no, you'll never get me to admit to feminism. I'm just an anti-gender-discriminationist. :P)
DERP
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The focus on feminism in this thread needs to end. The people advocating against feminism apparently don't understand what feminism is, and aside from a few people it seems pretty hilarious that an issue that has little to do with feminism and everything to do with a STATE ENTITY TRYING TO CENSOR AND MORALLY-POLICE THE INTERNET has degenerated into whatever the hell the last two pages are.
srsly.
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You know, I can't help wondering how similar this thread is to the discussions that preceded the bill...
If I worked in the Porn Industry, I think I'd find a load of people sitting in a boardroom deciding who I am and judging what I am doing far more demeaning than the films I chose to make.
It's not really about Prohibition, it's about control, protection and support for those who work in that career.
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well yeah
also dafuq
The forum appears to have eaten my previous post. But seriously though while the feminism and stuff is interesting/annoying/thought-provoking in that post that got eated I was going to point out how again the STATE ENTITY TRYING TO CENSOR AND MORALLY-POLICE THE INTERNET as MP-Ryan called it should be discussed. I mean really this crap never turns out well, and we already have enough stupid SOPA/PIPA/CISPA thingamoroids being crapped out by stupid people already.
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We're the Pirate Party and we believe in internet freedom!
(Apart from the massive part of it we want to censor)
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The focus on feminism in this thread needs to end. The people advocating against feminism apparently don't understand what feminism is, and aside from a few people it seems pretty hilarious that an issue that has little to do with feminism and everything to do with a STATE ENTITY TRYING TO CENSOR AND MORALLY-POLICE THE INTERNET has degenerated into whatever the hell the last two pages are.
srsly.
(http://www.1920s-fashion-and-music.com/images/capone1.jpg)
I for one look forward to becoming an organized crime magnate plying a lucrative trade in bootlegging pornography during the prohibition.
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I don't know why I'm concerned about this thread anyway; us Canadians will still be able to look a pictures of beavers whenever we like. Hell, we like beaver so much there's a picture of one on our 5 cent coin! =P
Nobody has ever cleared up, however, one mystery: Lizzy's head is on the other side of the coin. I wonder how the Daily Mail would feel about the Queen's beaver on Canadian currency in light of all the fuss they keep makign about Kate? =)
:D
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Someone needs to remind those politions of one simple fact.
The Internet Is For Porn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV7ou6pl5wU)
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We're the Pirate Party and we believe in internet freedom!
(Apart from the massive part of it we want to censor)
Did you read the right article?
Because the Pirate Party MEPs were the ones who found the proposal
(...) libertarian Swedish MEPs from the Pirate Party spotted the call for a ban in the small print.
and called on it
This horrendous attack on our fundamental freedoms of speech and expression needs action now(...)
as opposed to the MEP who proposed the ban
Kartika Liotard, a Dutch left-wing feminist MEP, is seeking "statutory measures to prevent any form of pornography in the media and in advertising and for a ban on advertising for pornographic products and sex tourism", including measures in the "digital field".
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*Eating popcorn and watching the thread unfold.*
Seriously. I have popcorn. And I'm eating it.
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*Eating popcorn and watching the thread unfold.*
Seriously. I have popcorn. And I'm eating it.
u sick, sick bastard.
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*Eating popcorn and watching the thread unfold.*
Seriously. I have popcorn. And I'm eating it.
u sick, sick bastard.
Well, that's better than, say, to eat popcorn after having it. :x :lol:
I'm also having some laughs with this thread. Once in a while, it's nice to be the one watching others while they defend their stances vehemently.
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*Eating popcorn and watching the thread unfold.*
Seriously. I have popcorn. And I'm eating it.
u sick, sick bastard.
Well, that's better than, say, to eat popcorn after having it. :x :lol:
I'm also having some laughs with this thread. Once in a while, it's nice to be the one watching others while they defend their stances vehemently.
This type of post is universally the ****tiest thing about discussions like this, since it tries to make a real spectacle out of what's actually been a pretty entertaining and fairly low-key discussion so far. Contribute or stay out.
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On topic:
What really needs to happen is for the people to get rid of the stupid Christian-derived prejudice against sexuality. It's really annoying, just what the heck is wrong with sex? It's a natural function of a human body and I see no reason to treat it as anything else, and especially not to pretend it doesn't exist. There's nothing immoral in consensual sex between adults, nor in nudity. Media can show people sitting on the toilet just fine, why not people having sex? Really, if people stopped making such a big deal out of sex being forbidden, what we know as porn would decline greatly, because normal, mainstream media with actual plots would also show sex when relevant, thus making sex for it's own sake much less interesting. That would also help with the whole "objectifying" thing, since if mainstream media could show nudity and sex, they'd to show people as actual people (both men and woman), not sex dolls. Also, screening children from everything sexual does them more harm than good. There's no reason sex shouldn't be depicted in mainstream media aside from this conflicting with antiquated Christian rules. Time to move past this 2000-year old piece of drivel, people!
[/rant]
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This type of post is universally the ****tiest thing about discussions like this, since it tries to make a real spectacle out of what's actually been a pretty entertaining and fairly low-key discussion so far. Contribute or stay out.
What for? Should I tell you about my worries than this supposedly good measure will serve to censor the internet, no matter what they try to make of it? Should I tell you about my theories regarding the potential of collective construction of knowledge and cultural values, and how this is NOT going to help feminism (and could even backfire)? Nah, each time I do any of those around here I get a mob angry at me. I don't feel like doing that today, this hasn't been a good day for me anyway.
Are those my options? Well, guess it's out then.
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On topic:
What really needs to happen is for the people to get rid of the stupid Christian-derived prejudice against sexuality. It's really annoying, just what the heck is wrong with sex? It's a natural function of a human body and I see no reason to treat it as anything else, and especially not to pretend it doesn't exist. There's nothing immoral in consensual sex between adults, nor in nudity. Media can show people sitting on the toilet just fine, why not people having sex? Really, if people stopped making such a big deal out of sex being forbidden, what we know as porn would decline greatly, because normal, mainstream media with actual plots would also show sex when relevant, thus making sex for it's own sake much less interesting. That would also help with the whole "objectifying" thing, since if mainstream media could show nudity and sex, they'd to show people as actual people (both men and woman), not sex dolls. Also, screening children from everything sexual does them more harm than good. There's no reason sex shouldn't be depicted in mainstream media aside from this conflicting with antiquated Christian rules. Time to move past this 2000-year old piece of drivel, people!
[/rant]
This is a pretty roundabout way of looking at it since the Christian argument against pornography (not to mention most forms of sexual expression) was that it objectifies the subjects. My personal view on depicting sex in mainstream media is that it's easy to do it wrong. I'd rather avoid the topic entirely in a show or movie if it's some juvenile nonsense that's added just to gain viewers while adding nothing else of value, which is an entirely different kind of argument. Interpret that as you will, Christianity still has next to nothing to do with the proposal. I don't think the porn industry is particularly nice, but I don't think complete censorship of all of pornography is going to do anything but make it worse.
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Besides, it's not like Christianity has managed to have the social impact in Europe that it has in North America; look at the differences in nudity taboos.
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All I see this proposal being is another, perhaps desperate attempt by the EU to censor (and morally police, as MP-Ryan mentioned) the internet, as it's bad for their business. Just reworded differently in an appeal to get the 'unwashed masses' to accept it. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's hope it gets defeated again.
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I dunno, guys, convince me that Starslayer's post isn't the only good one in this thread. (e: and suangadon)
I'm having an incredibly hard time coming up with any response longer than *Sneeeeeeeeeeeeeer*
Maybe I should add more characters?
"good" == "agrees with battuta"
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On topic:
What really needs to happen is for the people to get rid of the stupid Christian-derived prejudice against sexuality. It's really annoying, just what the heck is wrong with sex? It's a natural function of a human body and I see no reason to treat it as anything else, and especially not to pretend it doesn't exist. There's nothing immoral in consensual sex between adults, nor in nudity. Media can show people sitting on the toilet just fine, why not people having sex? Really, if people stopped making such a big deal out of sex being forbidden, what we know as porn would decline greatly, because normal, mainstream media with actual plots would also show sex when relevant, thus making sex for it's own sake much less interesting. That would also help with the whole "objectifying" thing, since if mainstream media could show nudity and sex, they'd to show people as actual people (both men and woman), not sex dolls. Also, screening children from everything sexual does them more harm than good. There's no reason sex shouldn't be depicted in mainstream media aside from this conflicting with antiquated Christian rules. Time to move past this 2000-year old piece of drivel, people!
[/rant]
yeah man, social repression of sexuality started with, has stayed with and will end with christianity
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*Eating popcorn and watching the thread unfold.*
Seriously. I have popcorn. And I'm eating it.
u sick, sick bastard.
Well, that's better than, say, to eat popcorn after having it. :x :lol:
I'm also having some laughs with this thread. Once in a while, it's nice to be the one watching others while they defend their stances vehemently.
Yes. But they didn't talk while I was eating my popcorn. They wouldn't entertain me... :hopping:
You want to be entertained when you're eating popcorn! :lol:
But the popcorn was tasty. And I listened to the popcorn song too. Years and years and years since I've listened to that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjxNnqTcHhg
Still enjoyable :D
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lorric i am trying to think of a way to quantify how annoying that is
stay posted
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lorric i am trying to think of a way to quantify how annoying that is
stay posted
The popcorn song?
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"good" == "agrees with battuta"
(http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-eng101.gif)
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"good" == "agrees with battuta"
(http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-eng101.gif)
i just realised, my reply was confrontational without actually explaining anything, which is precisely what i was having a go at you and suoangdon for
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to be fair, european porn is really bad. especially french or german porn.
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guys fix the delete button plx
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"good" == "agrees with battuta"
(http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-eng101.gif)
Which is kind of my point. Here (in the OP) we have a typical case of a small party with an enormous self-righteousness refusing to listen to anyone else. This self-proclaimed feminist legislator wants to control, police and censor media on the basis that SHE AND ONLY SHE knows what is right, what is better for everyone else. It's part of a method of thinking in which the truth, rightness, justice and pretty much any other value our societies hold good, can magically emanate from a person or a group.
Say, you're going to make a law to change some social behaviour. What should you do? Will you assume the other parties have as much right as you do and you have to convince them? Will you assume your stance could use some scrutiny and constructive criticism to improve itself? If you do, you're probably going to push for a law that grants you a part of the media spectrum so that you can talk to people and CONVINCE them of the merits of what you're doing. You're going to TEACH them why gender and sexual depiction in their current state in modern media, is discriminative, treats humans as objects, and is bad for everyone. You're going to communicate and try to foster social debate. You're going to treat the other party's opinions as if they actually (gasp!) mattered.
But why the hell would you do that! You're right already, you absolutely KNOW it! Screw debate! Screw trying to convince the other! We all know it will be more easily solved if we censor things. That has never gone wrong. That has never backfired. NEVER!
Mind you Battuta, despite you trying to kick me out of the thread, I have nothing against you. In fact I AGREE with you (you probably don't remember this, but you were the one who taught me the difference between those, how should I call them? "female supremacist" perhaps? and actual feminism, and that was the day I realized I had been a feminist all along). I just used your post to illustrate my point. And that is, that if you're going to try to change some social behaviour, you're not going to do it with some stupid and authoritarian legislation, claiming yourself to be good and right just because you know it and that's it. You're going to do it with social change, and that requires a far more profound political work than just passing legislation to outlaw a market (porn consumers).
Well, there you have it. Now I've gotten myself involved in this mess. Happy now? Now I'm going to sit and wait for the mob again.
EDIT: Fixed a small grammar mistake.
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i just realised, my reply was confrontational without actually explaining anything, which is precisely what i was having a go at you and suoangdon for
You mean like the same as the posts (we) quoted?
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Okay, if some militant feminist movement wants to ban porn, then I'm forming a movement to ban ****ty romance novels like 50 Shades of Gray that are just thinly-disguised porn for women. Such poorly-written tripe offends my delicate, flowery sensibilities and presents an unrealistic and unhealthy standard to which men much adhere.
The sad thing is that I'm really only half-joking.
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i just realised, my reply was confrontational without actually explaining anything, which is precisely what i was having a go at you and suoangdon for
You mean like the same as the posts (we) quoted?
er no they did actually bother saying something substantive, rather than just condescending
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Yes. But they didn't talk while I was eating my popcorn. They wouldn't entertain me... :hopping:
You want to be entertained when you're eating popcorn! :lol:
But the popcorn was tasty. And I listened to the popcorn song too. Years and years and years since I've listened to that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjxNnqTcHhg
Still enjoyable :D
For excessive ****posting, you will be getting a few days off.
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It's yet another slap in the face to the EU's hard ****ing sex workers. Hard working sex wor...uh, people. Prostidudes.
Come on Europe, don't let the prudes rally! Onward and upward! And downward! And upward!
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And me thinking a few years ago we were on the path to regulate / legalize prostitution and drugs and so on. Tough luck! All I've seen the past decade is a stream of further oppression and ignorant conservatism in regards to what should be legal and what not. We are creating an army of small (and not so small) "prohibitions" in every corner of our culture, but still somehow believe we are in a "free society". Is this the kind of **** we are trying to protect from the so-called medieval ideologies from the third world countries?
This is the liberal project eating itself up, surrendering itself by itself without the need of its fascistic enemies to even start shooting. Forbid everything! Only then we can become truly free and happy!
I have to puke, brb.
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In all seriousness, it looks like a proposal that's unlikely to pass and would be very difficult to enforce. Most reporting on it has been done by British tabloids from what I can find.
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yeah man, social repression of sexuality started with, has stayed with and will end with christianity
It's not that it started with it, but Christianity made it popular and introduced it to the world. Neither Judaism nor Islam were ever as widespread, and I think that they'd be viewed as weird if the rest of the world didn't had similar nudity taboos (some African tribes are already laughing as us for making a big deal out of exposed breasts). For the majority of people in the world (and the entirety of EU, which we're talking about), nudity taboo can be tracked back to Christanity. We've not discussing middle or far east (where things went differently) in this particular thread.
Also it doesn't have to end with Christianity, though if we start getting over religious superstitions like this one, it (along with other religions) might not last long after that.
In all seriousness, it looks like a proposal that's unlikely to pass and would be very difficult to enforce. Most reporting on it has been done by British tabloids from what I can find.
Yeah. The majority of europarliment is still composed of men. :) Not to mention people always find a way around those bans.
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yeah man, social repression of sexuality started with, has stayed with and will end with christianity
It's not that it started with it, but Christianity made it popular and introduced it to the world. Neither Judaism nor Islam were ever as widespread, and I think that they'd be viewed as weird if the rest of the world didn't had similar nudity taboos (some African tribes are already laughing as us for making a big deal out of exposed breasts). For the majority of people in the world (and the entirety of EU, which we're talking about), nudity taboo can be tracked back to Christanity. We've not discussing middle or far east (where things went differently) in this particular thread.
Also it doesn't have to end with Christianity, though if we start getting over religious superstitions like this one, it (along with other religions) might not last long after that.
Puritanism has evolved way beyond christianity and other religions. It has created deep roots in many western (and middle-eastern) minds already.
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yeah man, social repression of sexuality started with, has stayed with and will end with christianity
It's not that it started with it, but Christianity made it popular and introduced it to the world. Neither Judaism nor Islam were ever as widespread, and I think that they'd be viewed as weird if the rest of the world didn't had similar nudity taboos (some African tribes are already laughing as us for making a big deal out of exposed breasts). For the majority of people in the world (and the entirety of EU, which we're talking about), nudity taboo can be tracked back to Christanity. We've not discussing middle or far east (where things went differently) in this particular thread.
Also it doesn't have to end with Christianity, though if we start getting over religious superstitions like this one, it (along with other religions) might not last long after that.
and yet the japanese, with very little christian cultural influence (and a highly secular society), have somehow managed to become more sexually repressed than any western nation
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and yet the japanese, with very little christian cultural influence (and a highly secular society), have somehow managed to become more sexually repressed than any western nation
As I mentioned, far east has a different problem altogether. We're talking EU here, not Japan or China. While it'd be really interesting to see how did their sexual repressions came into being, it'd open a whole different can of worms. It's not even the same kind of sexual repression we see in the west, matters like that are treated very differently around there (for example, homosexuality isn't that big of a deal).
Puritanism has evolved way beyond christianity and other religions. It has created deep roots in many western (and middle-eastern) minds already.
Indeed, but religion is still the most common way it spreads, as well as a common justification. Without religion and it's rules, you'd be hard pressed to come up with a viable answer to a question like "Why a woman exposing her breasts is immoral?" or the like. I know nudity taboo and sexual repression is coded into the basic rules of society, but it's still illogical.
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Without religion and it's rules, you'd be hard pressed to come up with a viable answer to a question like "Why a woman exposing her breasts is immoral?" or the like. I know nudity taboo and sexual repression is coded into the basic rules of society, but it's still illogical.
You might find it really cool to have girls exposing their bodies and so on. For what is worth, I consider the "taboo" of dressing properly one of the highest forms of public health measures we have ever come up with. And by "health" I mean "protecting our eyes from hazard exposures of ghastly sights".
I disagree with your notion that these taboos and repressions are religiously justified, at least in Europe. They are, ironically, justified using naturalistic justifications (homossexuality isn't the "natural way" of doing things), pure disgust, fear of blatant nihillism creeping in, etc. Cultures are much more intrinsic than religion.
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Kartika Liotard, a Dutch left-wing feminist MEP, is seeking "statutory measures to prevent any form of pornography in the media and in advertising and for a ban on advertising for pornographic products and sex tourism", including measures in the "digital field".
Dutch left winged politics is absolutely stuffed with crazy people. (whereas the right wing is full with meanies)
Also Dragon, you are saying dumb things.
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Kartika Liotard, a Dutch left-wing feminist MEP, is seeking "statutory measures to prevent any form of pornography in the media and in advertising and for a ban on advertising for pornographic products and sex tourism", including measures in the "digital field".
Dutch left winged politics is absolutely stuffed with crazy people. (whereas the right wing is full with meanies)
Also Dragon, you are dumb.
Do you want to rethink that by any chance, spoon?
**** me but this is a nasty, unpleasant little thread. As a direct result, Dilmah is on the watch list, Lorric is tempbanned, and now we have spoon ad homming dragon. Can we or can we not discuss this topic like adults?
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Oh, I'm so sorry.
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Oh, I'm so sorry.
Dude, you're being sarcastic to a mod. That's probably not the best idea you've ever had.
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Dude, you're being sarcastic to a mod. That's probably not the best idea you've ever had.
Or am I?
Prove it.
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"Why a woman exposing her breasts is immoral?"
Immoral? Nah, rather a distraction. If not a distraction, it'd be bland. And if bland.. well that'd really suck. So it's all for your own good :P
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WTF, first in Iceland and now for whole EU they want to ban porn. Whats up with these crazy people lately? I thought we progressed beyond such pseudomoralistic BS already.
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Also Dragon, you are saying dumb things.
If "dumb things"="things you don't get", then this statement could become defensible. Otherwise, dismissing my entire post ex cathedra isn't contributing anything useful to the discussion. I might have oversimplified something, wrote something ambiguously or made a honest mistake. Point that out, and I'll respond.
I disagree with your notion that these taboos and repressions are religiously justified, at least in Europe. They are, ironically, justified using naturalistic justifications (homossexuality isn't the "natural way" of doing things), pure disgust, fear of blatant nihillism creeping in, etc. Cultures are much more intrinsic than religion.
Note that I only used homosexuality as an example of how eastern perceptions of sexuality are different from ours. Sexuality in general is natural, so I don't see any "naturalistic" justifications for prohibiting nudity. Disgust at nudity is a result of 2000 years of repressing sexuality (you don't see that in tribes which go around naked all the time). Because of that, nudity and sexuality are very emotionally loaded and produce extreme reactions. In ancient times (before Christianity), nudity was much less of a deal.
Please elaborate on the nihilism part, I'm not sure what you meant by that.
You might find it really cool to have girls exposing their bodies and so on. For what is worth, I consider the "taboo" of dressing properly one of the highest forms of public health measures we have ever come up with. And by "health" I mean "protecting our eyes from hazard exposures of ghastly sights".
I'm not advocating ditching nudity taboo because I like to look at nude people, but because it's illogical. A pretty girl has just as much right to undress as an ugly old man. You might not want to look at the latter, but aesthetics have little to do with morality. There's nothing immoral about nudity, of any age, gender or body type.
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You are seriously advocating that it should be a-okay for everyone to go around streaking 'because primitive tribes in africa do it'? Oh wait no, because it's illogical. :lol:
And the ' far east has a different problem altogether.', because walking around clothed is the biggest problem mankind is facing right now. :lol:
I retract my previous statement. Do go on, this is comedy gold.
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You are seriously advocating that it should be a-okay for everyone to go around streaking 'because primitive tribes in africa do it'? Oh wait no, because it's illogical. :lol:
You obviously did not understand my point. Think off a logical answer as to my question then. Why everyone shouldn't be allowed to go around naked? What is immoral about being nude around other people? Also, answering along the lines "It's obvious, everyone knows they shouldn't." isn't an answer at all.
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<popcorn>
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You are seriously advocating that it should be a-okay for everyone to go around streaking 'because primitive tribes in africa do it'? Oh wait no, because it's illogical. :lol:
You obviously did not understand my point. Think off a logical answer as to my question then. Why everyone shouldn't be allowed to go around naked? What is immoral about being nude around other people? Also, answering along the lines "It's obvious, everyone knows they shouldn't." isn't an answer at all.
It's unhygienic and often either distracting or upsetting.
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<popcorn>
Oh for the love of kittens.
Warned for being stupid.
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You are seriously advocating that it should be a-okay for everyone to go around streaking 'because primitive tribes in africa do it'? Oh wait no, because it's illogical. :lol:
And the ' far east has a different problem altogether.', because walking around clothed is the biggest problem mankind is facing right now. :lol:
I retract my previous statement. Do go on, this is comedy gold.
The nudity taboo makes sense because African tribes don't follow it?
Dude, you're being sarcastic to a mod. That's probably not the best idea you've ever had.
Or am I?
Prove it.
Your post really gave that impression.
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Note that I only used homosexuality as an example of how eastern perceptions of sexuality are different from ours. Sexuality in general is natural, so I don't see any "naturalistic" justifications for prohibiting nudity. Disgust at nudity is a result of 2000 years of repressing sexuality (you don't see that in tribes which go around naked all the time). Because of that, nudity and sexuality are very emotionally loaded and produce extreme reactions. In ancient times (before Christianity), nudity was much less of a deal.
You know, even if that historical assessment was correct (which I doubt), that would probably rank as one of the not-so-bad developments coming out of Christianity. You want people go around you naked? Hell I know I don't. I really like the fact we tabooed that behavior, for all the higyenic, aesthetic, olfactive, etc. reasons. You want to behave like an amazonian? Go ahead and behave so there. Ok?
Please elaborate on the nihilism part, I'm not sure what you meant by that.
Liberalism has in itself the seed of chaos, for its call for tolerance, equality and cultural understanding (through relativism and so on) are nice concepts but if taken to the extreme they are always self-defeating. So, in this sense, many liberal developments in our culture have created a conservative culture that fights it, because it fears that liberalism will end with the culture we have labored for so long in building, and in exchange it only promises "freedom". This is a very common theme in thoughts by Strauss, the neo-conservatives, etc., etc.
It was even acknowledged and foretold by Nietzsche.
I'm not advocating ditching nudity taboo because I like to look at nude people, but because it's illogical. A pretty girl has just as much right to undress as an ugly old man. You might not want to look at the latter, but aesthetics have little to do with morality. There's nothing immoral about nudity, of any age, gender or body type.
What has logic to do with any of this? Logic is the rules we use getting from one proposition to other propositions. Declaring nudity a taboo is as logical as anything else, given you accept the premises from which this conclusion was derived. To me, the mere objections I have against "nudity" in general are perfectly reasonable premises I have, and using Logic, I can conclude that it is a good idea to taboo nudity. Period.
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Note that I only used homosexuality as an example of how eastern perceptions of sexuality are different from ours. Sexuality in general is natural, so I don't see any "naturalistic" justifications for prohibiting nudity. Disgust at nudity is a result of 2000 years of repressing sexuality (you don't see that in tribes which go around naked all the time). Because of that, nudity and sexuality are very emotionally loaded and produce extreme reactions. In ancient times (before Christianity), nudity was much less of a deal.
You know, even if that historical assessment was correct (which I doubt), that would probably rank as one of the not-so-bad developments coming out of Christianity. You want people go around you naked? Hell I know I don't. I really like the fact we tabooed that behavior, for all the higyenic, aesthetic, olfactive, etc. reasons. You want to behave like an amazonian? Go ahead and behave so there. Ok?
Please elaborate on the nihilism part, I'm not sure what you meant by that.
Liberalism has in itself the seed of chaos, for its call for tolerance, equality and cultural understanding (through relativism and so on) are nice concepts but if taken to the extreme they are always self-defeating. So, in this sense, many liberal developments in our culture have created a conservative culture that fights it, because it fears that liberalism will end with the culture we have labored for so long in building, and in exchange it only promises "freedom". This is a very common theme in thoughts by Strauss, the neo-conservatives, etc., etc.
It was even acknowledged and foretold by Nietzsche.
I'm not advocating ditching nudity taboo because I like to look at nude people, but because it's illogical. A pretty girl has just as much right to undress as an ugly old man. You might not want to look at the latter, but aesthetics have little to do with morality. There's nothing immoral about nudity, of any age, gender or body type.
What has logic to do with any of this? Logic is the rules we use getting from one proposition to other propositions. Declaring nudity a taboo is as logical as anything else, given you accept the premises from which this conclusion was derived. To me, the mere objections I have against "nudity" in general are perfectly reasonable premises I have, and using Logic, I can conclude that it is a good idea to taboo nudity. Period.
I think that allowing unrestricted public nudity is a bad idea, but I don't support the ridiculous phobia of sex that our cultures have often endorsed.
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I can think of hygienic reasons to taboo public nudity/sex, and thats pretty weak reason considering the strength of the taboo. So yes, I have to conclude it is pretty much an ad-hoc tradition, nothing more. We wouldnt be any worse off if public nudity and sex was common and accepted. Its not like nudists or those tribes with no shame suffer because of it in any way.
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I can think of hygienic reasons to taboo public nudity/sex, and thats pretty weak reason considering the strength of the taboo. So yes, I have to conclude it is pretty much an ad-hoc tradition, nothing more. We wouldnt be any worse off if public nudity and sex was common and accepted. Its not like nudists or those tribes with no shame suffer because of it in any way.
Boy you don't spend a lot of time on NYC subways do you
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I think it is easy to imagine how the taboo about nudity and sex developed. Clothes in the past were a sign of certain wealth, so it was dishonorable to go nude because it implied poverty. Sex led to unwanted pregnancies/infanticide and STDs, which were much bigger deal in the absence of contraception, abortion and modern medicine. Also people got married very soon so there wasnt even time for them to have sex unless they were cheaters.
None of this really applies today.
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I think it is easy to imagine how the taboo about nudity and sex developed. Clothes in the past were a sign of certain wealth, so it was dishonorable to go nude because it implied poverty. Sex led to unwanted pregnancies/infanticide and STDs, which were much bigger deal in the absence of contraception, abortion and modern medicine. Also people got married very soon so there wasnt even time for them to have sex unless they were cheaters.
None of this really applies today.
This is what we in the evolutionary sciences call 'making up fairy tales'. It may be easy to imagine, but it is not an empirically based or testable hypothesis.
And BOY you do not spend a lot of time on NYC subways do you
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What's wrong with NYC subways?
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What's wrong with NYC subways?
There's a nut in every car
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What's wrong with NYC subways?
If people were allowed to ride nude and have sex on them, EVERYTHING
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What's wrong with NYC subways?
If people were allowed to ride nude and have sex on them, EVERYTHING
As in we'd have a bunch of naked fat people having sex with each other? :shaking:
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What's wrong with NYC subways?
If people were allowed to ride nude and have sex on them, EVERYTHING
As in we'd have a bunch of naked fat people having sex with each other? :shaking:
Doesn't matter, had sex. Perhaps rather than a taboo, nudity should merely be unfashionable. That way, people are uncool for being naked, but not thrown in jail. The taboo really is unnecessary. I'd rather a taboo on smokers poisoning my air than on people airing out their junk.
Back on topic though, wouldn't passing this bill make pretty much everyone a criminal? Maybe this is a way to gain access people's computers, to stifle piracy and enforce copyright.
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i wont be going outside naked any time soon. in the winter my pecker would freeze, in the summer giant bloodsucking helicopters. no thanks.
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and yet the japanese, with very little christian cultural influence (and a highly secular society), have somehow managed to become more sexually repressed than any western nation
Actually you have to blame the West (Especially the Americans) for that one. Japan was quite liberal before the influence of the west.
Here's a nice Cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/article_19098_6-wtf-japanese-trends-you-can-blame-white-guys.html) that covers it in a more amusing way than the links they include to back themselves up.
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Ah, ****, I just knew I was going to get something wrong there.
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and yet the japanese, with very little christian cultural influence (and a highly secular society), have somehow managed to become more sexually repressed than any western nation
Actually you have to blame the West (Especially the Americans) for that one. Japan was quite liberal before the influence of the west.
Here's a nice Cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/article_19098_6-wtf-japanese-trends-you-can-blame-white-guys.html) that covers it in a more amusing way than the links they include to back themselves up.
Yep. It's shocking just how old tentacle rape images are. :D
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Kartika Liotard, a Dutch left-wing feminist MEP, is seeking "statutory measures to prevent any form of pornography in the media and in advertising and for a ban on advertising for pornographic products and sex tourism", including measures in the "digital field".
Dutch left winged politics is absolutely stuffed with crazy people. (whereas the right wing is full with meanies)
Also Dragon, you are dumb.
Do you want to rethink that by any chance, spoon?
**** me but this is a nasty, unpleasant little thread. As a direct result, Dilmah is on the watch list, Lorric is tempbanned, and now we have spoon ad homming dragon. Can we or can we not discuss this topic like adults?
Just going to quietly apologise for my tactless thread input, right about now.
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apparently you have to be a moderator to get away with drunk posting.
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Kartika Liotard, a Dutch left-wing feminist MEP, is seeking "statutory measures to prevent any form of pornography in the media and in advertising and for a ban on advertising for pornographic products and sex tourism", including measures in the "digital field".
Dutch left winged politics is absolutely stuffed with crazy people. (whereas the right wing is full with meanies)
Also Dragon, you are dumb.
Do you want to rethink that by any chance, spoon?
**** me but this is a nasty, unpleasant little thread. As a direct result, Dilmah is on the watch list, Lorric is tempbanned, and now we have spoon ad homming dragon. Can we or can we not discuss this topic like adults?
Just going to quietly apologise for my tactless thread input, right about now.
You were the only thing that saved this thread.
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and yet the japanese, with very little christian cultural influence (and a highly secular society), have somehow managed to become more sexually repressed than any western nation
Actually you have to blame the West (Especially the Americans) for that one. Japan was quite liberal before the influence of the west.
Here's a nice Cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/article_19098_6-wtf-japanese-trends-you-can-blame-white-guys.html) that covers it in a more amusing way than the links they include to back themselves up.
NOO I was gona link to that! its good that we have a taboo on nudity, I don't want to see 70ish% of people i see daily naked. besides where I live, its about 40 degrees F right now. its to cold for that. besides that's a tad bit ridiculous. this thread has gotten slightly ridiculous
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Doesn't matter, had sex. Perhaps rather than a taboo, nudity should merely be unfashionable. That way, people are uncool for being naked, but not thrown in jail. The taboo really is unnecessary. I'd rather a taboo on smokers poisoning my air than on people airing out their junk.
That wouldn't work. There are jerks everywhere. You DO need a strong taboo to enforce this idea for everyone.
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You were the only thing that saved this thread.
Don't encourage him.
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u mad
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
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My execution may have been tactless and unnecessarily profane, to the man, and aggressive, but the principles of what I was talking about weren't harmful ones. I was talking about making the community more inclusive by educating ourselves about the social movements that we tend to casually rag on, respecting their worth, and respecting the carry over effect that it has towards our community image.
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and yet the japanese, with very little christian cultural influence (and a highly secular society), have somehow managed to become more sexually repressed than any western nation
Actually you have to blame the West (Especially the Americans) for that one. Japan was quite liberal before the influence of the west.
Here's a nice Cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/article_19098_6-wtf-japanese-trends-you-can-blame-white-guys.html) that covers it in a more amusing way than the links they include to back themselves up.
That article was simultaneously informative and hilarious.
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
He brought up good points (as his last point indicates) and his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread so far plus he was drunk!
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
He brought up good points (as his last point indicates) and his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread so far plus he was drunk!
His basic argument was correct, but it was buried in a barrage of insults and misspellings that would make any wannabe-thug teenager look like an English professor. Granted, he was right, but that doesn't automatically excuse his behavior.
EDIT: "his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread"
Was the rest of the thread full of "lol you some stupid ****s **** you"?
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Bah, can we close the thread already? What a waste.
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FFS.
One of the few times I post something serious, it all goes to ****.
Now I know how Spoon felt... :(
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
He brought up good points (as his last point indicates) and his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread so far plus he was drunk!
His basic argument was correct, but it was buried in a barrage of insults and misspellings that would make any wannabe-thug teenager look like an English professor. Granted, he was right, but that doesn't automatically excuse his behavior.
EDIT: "his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread"
Was the rest of the thread full of "lol you some stupid ****s **** you"?
If you don't know what a drunk Australian sounds like this is a great place to learn. Believe it or not, his post contained more thoughtful, reasoned, multipolar content than the rest of the thread put together up until that point!
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Interspersed with a tonne of swearing and personal attacks.
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Tellin' stories, singin' songs, and fightin' round the world!
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
He brought up good points (as his last point indicates) and his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread so far plus he was drunk!
His basic argument was correct, but it was buried in a barrage of insults and misspellings that would make any wannabe-thug teenager look like an English professor. Granted, he was right, but that doesn't automatically excuse his behavior.
EDIT: "his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread"
Was the rest of the thread full of "lol you some stupid ****s **** you"?
If you don't know what a drunk Australian sounds like this is a great place to learn. Believe it or not, his post contained more thoughtful, reasoned, multipolar content than the rest of the thread put together up until that point!
His post also contained more personal attacks than the rest of the thread put together up until that point. It seems like Dilmah (and Suongadon, for that matter) are so eager to flame everybody as misogynists that they fail to consider any alternative explanation for people disagreeing with them.
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i wont be going outside naked any time soon. in the winter my pecker would freeze, in the summer giant bloodsucking helicopters. no thanks.
Indubitably
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
He brought up good points (as his last point indicates) and his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread so far plus he was drunk!
His basic argument was correct, but it was buried in a barrage of insults and misspellings that would make any wannabe-thug teenager look like an English professor. Granted, he was right, but that doesn't automatically excuse his behavior.
EDIT: "his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread"
Was the rest of the thread full of "lol you some stupid ****s **** you"?
If you don't know what a drunk Australian sounds like this is a great place to learn. Believe it or not, his post contained more thoughtful, reasoned, multipolar content than the rest of the thread put together up until that point!
His post also contained more personal attacks than the rest of the thread put together up until that point. It seems like Dilmah (and Suongadon, for that matter) are so eager to flame everybody as misogynists that they fail to consider any alternative explanation for people disagreeing with them.
Hard point to substantiate when Dilmah's post is full of alternative explanations! It was seriously the most multilateral thing in the thread.
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
He brought up good points (as his last point indicates) and his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread so far plus he was drunk!
His basic argument was correct, but it was buried in a barrage of insults and misspellings that would make any wannabe-thug teenager look like an English professor. Granted, he was right, but that doesn't automatically excuse his behavior.
EDIT: "his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread"
Was the rest of the thread full of "lol you some stupid ****s **** you"?
If you don't know what a drunk Australian sounds like this is a great place to learn. Believe it or not, his post contained more thoughtful, reasoned, multipolar content than the rest of the thread put together up until that point!
His post also contained more personal attacks than the rest of the thread put together up until that point. It seems like Dilmah (and Suongadon, for that matter) are so eager to flame everybody as misogynists that they fail to consider any alternative explanation for people disagreeing with them.
Hard point to substantiate when Dilmah's post is full of alternative explanations! It was seriously the most multilateral thing in the thread.
Hell of a lot of good that does if no one wants to take posts like that seriously.
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You are seriously advocating that it should be a-okay for everyone to go around streaking 'because primitive tribes in africa do it'? Oh wait no, because it's illogical. :lol:
You obviously did not understand my point. Think off a logical answer as to my question then. Why everyone shouldn't be allowed to go around naked? What is immoral about being nude around other people? Also, answering along the lines "It's obvious, everyone knows they shouldn't." isn't an answer at all.
It's unhygienic and often either distracting or upsetting.
Most societies where people go around "naked" either have very limited contexts where it is acceptable to be naked (i.e. fishing or other water-related activities, or young children who are required to cover up upon reaching puberty) or different criteria for nudity (in certain South Pacific islands, men would wear some partial covering for their penises and are "naked" by European standards but would be mortified and ashamed to be seen without their penis gourds), anyway. So they still have a nudity taboo, just expressed differently. I can't think of a single society that has no clothing or body ornaments that are considered essential items.
Also, hey Dragon, way to generalize about and other an entire continent full of diverse peoples and many full-fledged indigenous civilizations. Was the Songhai Empire a "tribe in Africa" too?
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Battuta, you are a top bloke.
A few points I'd like to make, hopefully without unduly further inflaming the issue:
1. I'd like you to find me a drunk person who can type in perfect English with a minimum of profanity. Bonus points if the subject is Australian.
2. The personal attacks are bad, yes, I understand with crystal clarity that people don't like having their interaction with the opposite sex called into question and being accused of being a misogynist. On the other side of the coin, those of us who understand what modern Feminism is are rightly offended when people make broad accusations based on a faulty understanding of it. I believe I've laboured the point enough, but one of the key points of my post was to establish that a continued history of, what in the context of a correct understanding of feminism can be interpreted to be sexist commentary is harmful to the image of the community for one, and that halting it and instead pursuing education would be a solid move.
3. I challenge anyone who thinks I apply the misogynist label liberally to find instances outside of this thread where I'm sober and have misapplied or liberally applied the term.
4. I'd like anyone who still has issues to re-read my handful of intoxicated posts on this thread. Apart from a brief tirade where I mock the first few posters who thought this kind of thing was reflective of all of Feminism as being misogynist (which, as I've stated prior, is logical, given a proper and reasoned understanding of Feminism), I don't think my posts are chock-full of assaults on every member of the forum.
So in conclusion, yes, Dilmah was a bad man with a filthy, inebriated mouth on Friday night. I laughed at a few people and called them misogynists for their views on Feminism. Some of their views were later substantiated, some were not. But I think this idea that my posts were big and bad is false, considering what I'd still think to be sexist posts that this thread began on.
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Can we move on from discussing Dilmah's post? That is so 4 days ago. Seriously, I liked his post because yeah it pretty much summed up what I was thinking at that point, but come on. This thread is so meta it's not even funny.
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Holy crap, people are still arguing about this? Dilmah's post, like Battuta said was better than everything else in the thread. I'd say my post is an exception though, as I was lazy at the time and didn't bother explaining why I felt that more.
If you want to know why, take a look at Tumblr and check out the "feminists" that have blogs there. The vast majority of them are absolutely horrid people. I'm cool with making sure there's no inequality bull****, but people who will happily guise their self-entitledness to things in the premise of "equality" will almost always deserve to be beneath everyone else as far as I am concerned.
I mean seriously, they actually think that there is an organization of men called "The Patriarchytm" who seek to oppress the Dear Leader female gender and that they are responsibly for everything ever bad to happen to women, and many of them literally believe that all men are a part of this "movement'. It's quite clearly conspiracy theory territory.
But you know what I hate about his? They're not confined to Tumblr. They apparently constitute a large portion of the feminist movement. And their behavior has done absolutely nothing except to hurt the movement.
I wasn't saying that all feminists are like that, either. As I said above, I got lazy and didn't bother attempting to describe why I felt that, but here.
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1. I'd like you to find me a drunk person who can type in perfect English with a minimum of profanity. Bonus points if the subject is Australian.
i can do that minus the bonus points. that is if you call the modified redneck that i speak a dialect of english. and thats after vomiting twice and drinking some more.
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Holy crap, people are still arguing about this? Dilmah's post, like Battuta said was better than everything else in the thread. I'd say my post is an exception though, as I was lazy at the time and didn't bother explaining why I felt that more.
If you want to know why, take a look at Tumblr and check out the "feminists" that have blogs there. The vast majority of them are absolutely horrid people. I'm cool with making sure there's no inequality bull****, but people who will happily guise their self-entitledness to things in the premise of "equality" will almost always deserve to be beneath everyone else as far as I am concerned.
I mean seriously, they actually think that there is an organization of men called "The Patriarchytm" who seek to oppress the Dear Leader female gender and that they are responsibly for everything ever bad to happen to women, and many of them literally believe that all men are a part of this "movement'. It's quite clearly conspiracy theory territory.
'Das Patriarchy' is less of an organization that people consciously subscribe to than a power structure inscribed in social norms. It's a bundle of frequently unconscious behaviors and associations, many of which we can actually detect in the lab with SCIENCE, others of which just kinda pop out at you if you think about the way society works.
A lot of these attitudes harm men as well as women!
Another important consequence of the presence of these attitudes is that a lot of men have what gets called 'male privilege', which they didn't ask for and often aren't aware of. One simple example that gets cited a lot is the behavior of a man vs. a woman walking down a street at night or taking a subway.
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How I'd love to say BritishShivans is dead wrong. But after witnessing the total cluster**** that those PZ Myers "Freethought" blogs went through (and all the crazy shenanigans that Dawkins, Harris and even Shermer had to go through...), I must say that such a ****fest exists.
However, I'd say those are loud mad voices. And loud mad voices are utterly over-represented in the nets. Most feminists like me are usually mild mannered and don't take part on all shenanigans like that. And when you say "**** the feminazis" and so on, you are really making the mistake of over-generalizing. You are confusing a whole sensible movement with a tiny ****ty mad portion of it.
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....For god's sake. Luis, I ask you to shut up and actually pay attention for a moment. No, I'm not overgeneralizing. I'm talking about the ****ty/crappy people in the movement, and why I feel that way.
I. Am. Not. Saying. The. Entirety. Of. The. Feminist. Movement. Is. horrible. like. that.
Do you understand? Because if you want to argue about semantics and argue 'lol generalization', something which I ****ing loathe, you can quite kindly demonstrate maturity and take this to PMs rather than helping **** up the thread even more than what it even is.
God.
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Uh dude he was pretty much agreeing with you
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There is no cause so right you won't find idiots following it. The problem starts when we let those idiots speak.
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....For god's sake. Luis, I ask you to shut up and actually pay attention for a moment. No, I'm not overgeneralizing. I'm talking about the ****ty/crappy people in the movement, and why I feel that way.
I. Am. Not. Saying. The. Entirety. Of. The. Feminist. Movement. Is. horrible. like. that.
Do you understand? Because if you want to argue about semantics and argue 'lol generalization', something which I ****ing loathe, you can quite kindly demonstrate maturity and take this to PMs rather than helping **** up the thread even more than what it even is.
God.
Yeah, because it sure wasn't you who said:
pitiful
modern "feminism" is a disgrace to humanity
it is as Nuke said once (paraphrased)
stop dividing my ****ing species
I was just imagining stuff you see.
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Holy crap, people are still arguing about this? Dilmah's post, like Battuta said was better than everything else in the thread. I'd say my post is an exception though, as I was lazy at the time and didn't bother explaining why I felt that more.
If you want to know why, take a look at Tumblr and check out the "feminists" that have blogs there. The vast majority of them are absolutely horrid people. I'm cool with making sure there's no inequality bull****, but people who will happily guise their self-entitledness to things in the premise of "equality" will almost always deserve to be beneath everyone else as far as I am concerned.
I mean seriously, they actually think that there is an organization of men called "The Patriarchytm" who seek to oppress the Dear Leader female gender and that they are responsibly for everything ever bad to happen to women, and many of them literally believe that all men are a part of this "movement'. It's quite clearly conspiracy theory territory.
But you know what I hate about his? They're not confined to Tumblr. They apparently constitute a large portion of the feminist movement. And their behavior has done absolutely nothing except to hurt the movement.
I wasn't saying that all feminists are like that, either. As I said above, I got lazy and didn't bother attempting to describe why I felt that, but here.
I think this is why when a lot of people(men) hear feminist they go 'ugh, gtfo'. Because 99% of the times when there is 'news' involving feminism, its some crazy lady shouting crazy things. Like with this supposed ban on porn. The intent is noble (fighting against objectification and exploitation of women) but the proposed method is just nuts.
I think for a lot of men this is all the involvement they'll ever have with feminism, which just makes them go "them feminists are at it again, *****es should get back in the kitchen" as they crack open another beer can.
I'm absolutely pro equal rights (for example I find it crazy that there are so many occasions in which women and men do the same work, at the same workload but women get paid less because Idunnowth in 2013) but these "Strong wymen don't need men blablabla" crazies can go take a hike. They do more bad than good.
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So, I guess we can all agree it's wrong to oppress anyone based on gender then, yeah? And then proper feminism is a good thing since it's about doing the exact opposite.
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So, I guess we can all agree it's wrong to oppress anyone then, yeah?
Fixed. ;)
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no, i'm just annoyed how for all battuta's talk of how it's important to keep the standard of discussion civil and intelligent he's perfectly happy with people dragging it down if they agree with him
He brought up good points (as his last point indicates) and his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread so far plus he was drunk!
His basic argument was correct, but it was buried in a barrage of insults and misspellings that would make any wannabe-thug teenager look like an English professor. Granted, he was right, but that doesn't automatically excuse his behavior.
EDIT: "his level of discussion was pretty much the same as the rest of the thread"
Was the rest of the thread full of "lol you some stupid ****s **** you"?
If you don't know what a drunk Australian sounds like this is a great place to learn. Believe it or not, his post contained more thoughtful, reasoned, multipolar content than the rest of the thread put together up until that point!
His post also contained more personal attacks than the rest of the thread put together up until that point. It seems like Dilmah (and Suongadon, for that matter) are so eager to flame everybody as misogynists that they fail to consider any alternative explanation for people disagreeing with them.
Hard point to substantiate when Dilmah's post is full of alternative explanations! It was seriously the most multilateral thing in the thread.
His later posts had alternative explanations. Not his first one.
Anyway, I'll let it go, because he said that four days ago and more dumb arguments are the last thing this thread needs.
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you know ive yet to meet a woman who could cook better than i can. im more intrested in keeping them out of the kitchen than demanding a poorly assembled sandwich.
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Battuta, you are a top bloke.
A few points I'd like to make, hopefully without unduly further inflaming the issue:
1. I'd like you to find me a drunk person who can type in perfect English with a minimum of profanity. Bonus points if the subject is Australian.
2. The personal attacks are bad, yes, I understand with crystal clarity that people don't like having their interaction with the opposite sex called into question and being accused of being a misogynist. On the other side of the coin, those of us who understand what modern Feminism is are rightly offended when people make broad accusations based on a faulty understanding of it. I believe I've laboured the point enough, but one of the key points of my post was to establish that a continued history of, what in the context of a correct understanding of feminism can be interpreted to be sexist commentary is harmful to the image of the community for one, and that halting it and instead pursuing education would be a solid move.
3. I challenge anyone who thinks I apply the misogynist label liberally to find instances outside of this thread where I'm sober and have misapplied or liberally applied the term.
4. I'd like anyone who still has issues to re-read my handful of intoxicated posts on this thread. Apart from a brief tirade where I mock the first few posters who thought this kind of thing was reflective of all of Feminism as being misogynist (which, as I've stated prior, is logical, given a proper and reasoned understanding of Feminism), I don't think my posts are chock-full of assaults on every member of the forum.
So in conclusion, yes, Dilmah was a bad man with a filthy, inebriated mouth on Friday night. I laughed at a few people and called them misogynists for their views on Feminism. Some of their views were later substantiated, some were not. But I think this idea that my posts were big and bad is false, considering what I'd still think to be sexist posts that this thread began on.
How the **** did you even manage to get drunk in australia, I had to take a personal loan out to get tipsy.
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He's a wee tee totaler
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Take a hike man. :P But it's really easy when your uni's running the party. Plus this really nice girl gave me 5 free drink tokens and that certainly helped me along, after downing a few pre-drinks in the Arts faculty toilets.
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so a good night then :D