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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mobius on March 19, 2013, 03:44:54 pm

Title: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Mobius on March 19, 2013, 03:44:54 pm
This has been stuck in my head for quite some time. Imagine that a GTVA citizen in, let's say, Barnard's Star has to go to Delta Serpentis; there must be some way to do it other than being a military officer transferred from one system to another. There must be a space lining and cargo service connecting GTVA systems. Forcing citizens in their system would pretty much sound like a dictatorship.

The question is, considering what we know about subspace, space installations and space colonization, how would civilian transport work in FreeSpace? Do you believe there'd be small liners in each system serving as feeders for larger liners meant for intersystem travel? Would liners pretty much ignore space installations and land on/take off from space ports on the surface instead? Would liners spend most of the time in subspace? What authority would regulate civilian traffic in GTVA space?

Would such a service be affordable for the average GTVA citizen? Also, do you believe it would be a deregulated business, with independent spacelines in competition, or a GTVA-owned service mainly maintained by taxes? :v: didn't tell us anything about the subject but, as many of you probably know, liners were mentioned in our beloved FS3 wishlist (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Freespace_3_Wishlist).

Quote from: FreeSpace 3 Wishlist
More variety in ships! We still don't have Vasudan or Shivan installations, or civilian traffic at all. Where are the huge cruise liners? The speedy little civvies craft that so love to wander into war zones? And so on.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 19, 2013, 03:51:21 pm
GTT Elysium is canonically a vessel used "to transport civilian and military personnel from one star system to another". Given its size it can probably carry as much, or more, passengers than your average Boeing 737. Sounds like a good basis for civilian "airlines", but there would probably be more, in-universe, than this one canonical example.



The question is, considering what we know about subspace, space installations and space colonization, how would civilian transport work in FreeSpace? Do you believe there'd be small liners in each system serving as feeders for larger liners meant for intersystem travel? Would liners pretty much ignore space installations and land on/take off from space ports on the surface instead? Would liners spend most of the time in subspace? What authority would regulate civilian traffic in GTVA space?

Would such a service be affordable for the average GTVA citizen? Also, do you believe it would be a deregulated business, with independent spacelines in competition, or a GTVA-owned service mainly maintained by taxes?
All this is entirely up to the campaign maker I believe. Lots of different way to put it, depending on what era, on what kind of atmosphere you want to set up, etc.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: blowfish on March 19, 2013, 03:54:12 pm
While we don't know for sure, it's possible that even in the FS2 era, intersystem subspace drives are still somewhat expensive for civilians.  This means that intersystem liners would spend most of their time going between systems rather than wasting that drive ferrying people around within a system.  So these liners would probably dock with installations, or smaller transports would dock with them in order to take people to multiple destinations within a system.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: yuezhi on March 19, 2013, 03:56:09 pm
Let's ask the guy(s) who've already modelled a space liner for Freespace. Only i don't remember what it's called and what campaign it's from.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: The E on March 19, 2013, 04:03:38 pm
I think that intersystem travel in the GTVA is kinda similar to intercontinental travel ca 1900. It's a big deal if you do it, and few people do it regularly. Reason being that all terran systems, without exception, are very young colony worlds; I would imagine people are needed where they are.

That being said, I do believe that there's enough of a market for civillian shipping so that there are a few dedicated passenger liners, and limited passenger accommodations aboard freighters that make regular runs between systems. In that model, people would go up to a transfer station somewhere in planetary orbit, hop onto the next ship bound for whatever system they want to go to, and disembark at a transfer station at the other end.

(I can see why :v: never mentioned this anywhere. It's simply not important for the storytelling in FS1 or 2; there's no conceivable situation within the missions of those games where adding a purely civillian ship would have made much sense.)

Now, regarding the economics of buying a ticket to another star system, I would assume it's somewhere between a transatlantic ticket on the Titanic, and a ticket for a Concorde flight ca 1970. A big sum, one you would not pay lightly, but one that is affordable if you plan for it in advance.

While we don't know for sure, it's possible that even in the FS2 era, intersystem subspace drives are still somewhat expensive for civilians.  This means that intersystem liners would spend most of their time going between systems rather than wasting that drive ferrying people around within a system.  So these liners would probably dock with installations, or smaller transports would dock with them in order to take people to multiple destinations within a system.

Actually, the solution to that issue would be a fleet of tugs stationed at both ends of a Node, ferrying ships across as needed. I do believe that at the time of FS2 at least, most of the newer ships would have interstellar-capable drives installed.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Lorric on March 19, 2013, 04:05:06 pm
Shivans/pirates would enjoy blowing them up. We probably wouldn't enjoy having to protect them. That's how they'd work  :D
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: The E on March 19, 2013, 04:13:56 pm
Shivans/pirates would enjoy blowing them up. We probably wouldn't enjoy having to protect them. That's how they'd work  :D

That makes no sense.

Okay, granted, I can't see Shivans hesitating to blow up freighters, but I would imagine that the GTVA will snap into full paranoia "protect everything and recall everything we can't protect" mode as soon as Shivans are sighted.

As for Pirates? It makes absolutely no sense for them to murder people.
Let's think about piracy in the FS universe for a moment. A successful pirate needs a ship that has a jump drive, preferably one that is interstellar-capable. He also needs a way to make sure that whatever ship he is pirating at the moment cannot signal for aid (Because in FS, all points in a solar system are equidistant for a subspace-capable ship), unless he is well-equipped enough to deal with a flight of fighters. He also needs to maintain that silence for as long as it takes to take over the ship, recharge the jump drives, and jump away.

Now, all of this technology is not cheap. If said pirate wants to finance his operations, he needs to capture enough loot to break even, and I would imagine that that would be somewhat harder if he manages to get a reputation to be a killer that needs to be stopped. The tactical and strategic situation in FS is not very friendly for pirates.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Lorric on March 19, 2013, 04:23:24 pm
Shivans/pirates would enjoy blowing them up. We probably wouldn't enjoy having to protect them. That's how they'd work  :D

That makes no sense.

Okay, granted, I can't see Shivans hesitating to blow up freighters, but I would imagine that the GTVA will snap into full paranoia "protect everything and recall everything we can't protect" mode as soon as Shivans are sighted.

As for Pirates? It makes absolutely no sense for them to murder people.
Let's think about piracy in the FS universe for a moment. A successful pirate needs a ship that has a jump drive, preferably one that is interstellar-capable. He also needs a way to make sure that whatever ship he is pirating at the moment cannot signal for aid (Because in FS, all points in a solar system are equidistant for a subspace-capable ship), unless he is well-equipped enough to deal with a flight of fighters. He also needs to maintain that silence for as long as it takes to take over the ship, recharge the jump drives, and jump away.

Now, all of this technology is not cheap. If said pirate wants to finance his operations, he needs to capture enough loot to break even, and I would imagine that that would be somewhat harder if he manages to get a reputation to be a killer that needs to be stopped. The tactical and strategic situation in FS is not very friendly for pirates.

Yes, in a logical sense, it indeed makes no sense.

But how many games have you played, whether Freespace or not, where pirates and thieves arrive to attack something you are protecting, where their logical goal would be to take something from within, yet if you fail, they just blow it up? I would say the number where they blow it up outnumbers the instances where they actually do what real thieves would do.

The real point I was trying to make though, is however they work in game, that's what it will boil down to in your encounters with them. Protection missions.

If anyone does want to use them for something else though somehow, Freespace never goes into any details on the workings of civilian life at all I don't think, so you'd have a free hand to spell out any story you'd want. Create any company or vessel or set of rules. Well, short of civillian vessels blowing up Shivan capital ships!  :lol:
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: headdie on March 19, 2013, 04:25:28 pm
Piracy would defiantly be better served using transports and freighters using intimidate, snatch and grab tactics.

End of the day the pirates need to eat and keep their ships running which all takes money, out right destruction only serves them if they are able to ransom someone to keep the target safe or they are paid to cause said destruction by an outside party.  Otherwise they need people, ships and or goods to hold hostage or black market where possible.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Mebber on March 19, 2013, 04:28:10 pm
I guess the bulk of intersystem personal transfer would be managed by really huge but not very comfortable liners, which are stationed at spaceborn starports, or probably the Arcadias, near the system jump node. They travel on the ever-same route between two star systems. The citizens would have to board smaller transports and shuttles to actually reach the space stations and the liners. I think the traffic chaos would be too great if the people would use the smaller transports and shuttles for intersystem travel - there's just one node between two systems, and if it's a highly frequented route, the node entry- and exitpoints could easily become traffic bottlenecks if entire flottilas of small civilian craft want to travel from one system to another at the same time. And the administrative effort to coordinate such great numbers of small ships (who is allowed to enter the node at which point) would be quite costly, and there would be a far greater risk of space accidents, so i think the idea with huges liners is more applicable.

The use of the nodes could be further regulated by node charges, with higher charges for more frequently used nodes and reduced prices for ships flying with a commercial license. This way more far-off systems who doesen't have big traffic or aren't integrated in the big liner- and freighter trading lines wouldn't be hampered by the node charges, which would be bad for their economic growth. And really far-off systems with only a couple of mining colonies would probably have very low traffic at all, maybe just a supply ship once a month, so if some civilian really wants to fly to or from those colonoies he's got to wait some weeks until the next freighter goes, and it's a quite uncomfortable way to travel.

It's probably all a matter of money, just like in real life - the regular poor citizen has to use the crowded, cheap mass transporters to get from one system to another and has to change ships every system, while the richer guys can afford to use smaller express vehicles who travel directly through different systems without the need to change ships or wait on the next spaceport for the departure of the next liner. And the really poor guys have to travel as "additional cargo" in an empty corner of a cargo freighter.

Wow, 8 new replies. I should learn to write faster.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Lorric on March 19, 2013, 04:33:38 pm
Piracy would defiantly be better served using transports and freighters using intimidate, snatch and grab tactics.

End of the day the pirates need to eat and keep their ships running which all takes money, out right destruction only serves them if they are able to ransom someone to keep the target safe or they are paid to cause said destruction by an outside party.  Otherwise they need people, ships and or goods to hold hostage or black market where possible.

Yes, ready goods to snatch and grab are the best for pirates. Civilian freighters and cargo tugs tend to fall under attack the most within games and missions of this nature. You would think spacefaring civilians would be wealthy though. The best scenario for such a situation would then be for pirates to attack a high end civilian transport, perhaps something along the lines of a pleasure cruiser today, in space. Might be fun for a modeller to design such a thing. It would be something quite different. The people aboard can be ransacked for a quick raid and ransomed for something more long term, along with the vessel itself, which would likely be worth a hell of a lot as well, Somali pirate style.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 19, 2013, 04:36:41 pm
Piracy would be better served by not existing at all in space!

/Rant

As for liners, we have no canon definition, I suggest keeping it like that as it adds 'customization' to campaign environments. Voting on some sort of 'default' system would add extra work for the 'writers' to explain that it does not work that way in their story.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Lorric on March 19, 2013, 04:41:04 pm
I guess the bulk of intersystem personal transfer would be managed by really huge but not very comfortable liners, which are stationed at spaceborn starports, or probably the Arcadias, near the system jump node. They travel on the ever-same route between two star systems. The citizens would have to board smaller transports and shuttles to actually reach the space stations and the liners. I think the traffic chaos would be too great if the people would use the smaller transports and shuttles for intersystem travel - there's just one node between two systems, and if it's a highly frequented route, the node entry- and exitpoints could easily become traffic bottlenecks if entire flottilas of small civilian craft want to travel from one system to another at the same time. And the administrative effort to coordinate such great numbers of small ships (who is allowed to enter the node at which point) would be quite costly, and there would be a far greater risk of space accidents, so i think the idea with huges liners is more applicable.

The use of the nodes could be further regulated by node charges, with higher charges for more frequently used nodes and reduced prices for ships flying with a commercial license. This way more far-off systems who doesen't have big traffic or aren't integrated in the big liner- and freighter trading lines wouldn't be hampered by the node charges, which would be bad for their economic growth. And really far-off systems with only a couple of mining colonies would probably have very low traffic at all, maybe just a supply ship once a month, so if some civilian really wants to fly to or from those colonoies he's got to wait some weeks until the next freighter goes, and it's a quite uncomfortable way to travel.

It's probably all a matter of money, just like in real life - the regular poor citizen has to use the crowded, cheap mass transporters to get from one system to another and has to change ships every system, while the richer guys can afford to use smaller express vehicles who travel directly through different systems without the need to change ships or wait on the next spaceport for the departure of the next liner. And the really poor guys have to travel as "additional cargo" in an empty corner of a cargo freighter.

Wow, 8 new replies. I should learn to write faster.

Not if it would impact the quality of your posts  :)

I was thinking something along the lines of perhaps space travel for most people would be a throwback to long distance travel a lot of years ago in the early years of long distance travel, maybe as bad as people travelling in terrible conditions packed in like sardines in some old converted freighter type vessel.

Piracy would be better served by not existing at all in space!

/Rant

As for liners, we have no canon definition, I suggest keeping it like that as it adds 'customization' to campaign environments. Voting on some sort of 'default' system would add extra work for the 'writers' to explain that it does not work that way in their story.

And you know who's job it is to do that, right? Us. Rookie pilots often end up cutting their teeth on pirate scum.

Even if there was a voted way, it could never be official canon. It wouldn't stop people going off in their own direction.

I wonder why the OP asks the question. Is there a plan in mind?
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Drogoth on March 19, 2013, 05:46:02 pm
Curiosity I expect
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: 0rph3u5 on March 19, 2013, 06:17:11 pm
I tried to tackle that problem in both SoI and WotW background, why there is little traffic between systems in a galactic civilisation spanning several star systems:

Basically it boiled down to the following points - spoiler tagged the details:

1) Terraforming/Colonizing a planet is a delicate process and implanted ecosystems by their very nature discourage travel from one planet to another.
Spoiler:
Note: Terraforming here extends beyond just makeing a planet habitable for human life but also to creating an ecosystem on the planet that works for human designs.

Through the magictechnology of genetic engineering (and to avoid any (more) major terraforming mishaps [see 'The Chronciles Of Solace's' Mars]) most colonies are self-stustaining when it comes to flora and fauna providing food, oxygen and waste reclaimation. Technical advancements have made importing animal life beyond the scale of insects unnecessary, everything you could need a beast of bruden for you can get with a motorized vehicle.

Leaving a colony is essentially dangerous for the destination colony and travelers coming and going are a constant hazard to the individual ecosystems transplanted on the colony worlds. Unwillingly migrating organisms designed to thrive outside your colony could endanger another colony and tigger an effect known as Contraction (again term borrowed from the 'The Chronciles Of Solace'). A Contraction event would trigger a chain reaction that would endanger all settled planets and so it is kept in the mind of entire GTVA populace that such an event could be tiggered by the slightest of oversights.

2) If a ressource cannot be naturally found at a colony site, the colony's society, in the long run, finds a way to substitue the ressource with something readily avalible or easily optainable.
Spoiler:
self-explainatory

3) Economic policy is to restrict production to products that can be manufactured with local supplies in order to limit foreign control over policies in a system.
Spoiler:
Most economies (note: plural) in GTVA space are not interdependent after a period of gaining access to the ressources avalible in system. Long term dependence also means that on the long term someone else has you under their power (see Oil Crisis in 1973). This is also a remnant from pre-GTVA-time when there was not a single but multiple competing power blocks.

4) In relation to 2 and 3 there is a small number of industrial sites in the GTVA space which have a demand excedding their supply in system.
Spoiler:
self-explainatory

5) In-system jump drives come at different levels of capacity and different price tags. The laws governing subspace flight make subspace jumps economical only for small ships.
Spoiler:
DISCLAIMER: The following is purely fiction and may not have solid foundation in contemporary science. Anyone to point out the faults and correct them is awared a metaphorical cookie.

Basically a subspace jump is easiest to accomplish when space is already bend by a mass rich object (e.g. a planet) in close proximity to the entrance point of the subspace transit. Moving away from a planet increases energy consumption for the transit. Mass of the ship transfering from point A to point B also factors in the energy consumption of the transit. Transit lengh which is the capacity to maintain the subspace transit is the final limiting factor as the longer the transit the more energy is consumed.

Hence jump drives have the least energy consumption on small ships makeing short jumps from near a mass-rich object. To jump larger ships, longer distances and/or from anywhere more energy is to be fed into the jump drive and so the ship needs a larger powerplant to achive this. Large powerplants, even fusion power sources, are expensive to make and maintain which raises the cost for their use.

6) Intersystem drives are really expensive.
Spoiler:
DISCLAIMER: The following is purely fiction and may not have solid foundation in contemporary science. Anyone to point out the faults and correct them is awared a metaphorical cookie.

Jump Notes allow subspace entry at severly reduced energy cost due to the spacial properties at their site. However intersystem jump still take up a lot of power due to the lengh of the jump and therefor a ship with a intersystem drive must either power down power consuming systems for the transit or be able to supply enough power for the jump to be successful. Special issue drives, like in military fighters, are able to minimize the problem somewhat but are a huge investment in themselves.

7) In relation to 2-6 intersystem commerce is expensive, promises little returns and so has a slim profit margin.
Spoiler:
self-explainatory

8) Ships qualifying for commercial intersystem flight have to be build with a life-time in mind that returns the investment. Building and maintaining ships with long lifetimes is expensive.
Spoiler:
A ship with a long lifetime must be able to be refitted easily and often in order to ensure it remains competetive with other vessels with the same purpose. Refitting ships takes time and money additionally to the orignal investment for the construction. The original investment is increased by taking above factors into account.

9) Due to the high costs involved intersystem commerce is highly monoploized and competition non-existiant.
Spoiler:
A company that succeeds can remain successful in the long run while company that stumbles and fails may already be finished with the first problems.

10) The monopolies on intersystem commerce are beneficial to the GTVA and thus are maintained by the government.
Spoiler:
In accordance to 3 the GTVA has little economic leverage against its member system other than restrictions that could be imposed on interstellar and -system traffic. Limiting the list of the people involved here allows the GTVA for much more efficient application of force.

To summarize:
Interplanetary travel is discourage by an apocalytic terraforming catastrophy. Intersystem commerce is expensive, rare and as a result monoploized. The monopolies are beneficial to the central GTVA government as they allow the GTVA to apply its limited power against its member systems more effectively.

Note: I have not really accounted for piracy because I kinda don't find a logical scenario for space piracy...

EDIT: Well 5 & 6 are WotW-specifica since there I had to come up with a lot of ideas on how to make subspace travel logically work ... I might have strayed from  :v:'s orignal concept quite a lot there
but the rest of the pattern should be transferable I guess...
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: headdie on March 19, 2013, 06:35:27 pm
much of that is certainly plausable
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: karajorma on March 19, 2013, 08:03:38 pm
Bear in mind that the GTVA had the lift capacity to evacuate Capella not once, but twice. That's 250 million people. It's hard to believe they did that all using military ships, which suggests quite a large number of interstellar jump capable ships.

Also it's important to realise between the two invasions they brought the people back. People fleeing from a Shivan invasion might trust their lives to jury-rigged freighters with inadequate life support, but people returning to their homes are going to want some comfort. 
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Mebber on March 19, 2013, 08:03:50 pm
Some thoughts about 0rph3u5 points:

Quote from: 0rph3u5
Terraforming/Colonizing a planet is a delicate process and implanted ecosystems by their very nature discourage travel from one planet to another.

That could be a problem, but it's not said that every colonized planet features a complex implanted ecosystem or is even viable for terraforming. If planets which can support garden-world like terraforming is something rare, i think it's save to assume that the colonies will make more use of systems like arcologies, dome habitats and similiar smaller and more easily controlled ecosystems by transforming local resources, which would make it possible to use more 'standarized' ecosystem assets, which is much more cost-effective than to plan an entire complex ecosystem for every new world, and would reduce the impact of possible contamination from another planets colony ecosystem.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
If a ressource cannot be naturally found at a colony site, the colony's society, in the long run, finds a way to substitue the ressource with something readily avalible or easily optainable.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
Economic policy is to restrict production to products that can be manufactured with local supplies in order to limit foreign control over policies in a system.


I agree, but it's more than likely that specific worlds have excesses in specific resources while are short on others, so i think they will focus on producing, refining and processing goods they have and export them, and import goods they lack of. And it's not only about establishing self-sufficiency but also about the growth of (not necessary for survival) wealth which would drive people to trade. And if there is a demand for transporting goods, there will be someone to satisfy this demand.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
Intersystem drives are really expensive.

With this point everything else stands or falls. If the costs for intersystem drives are too high, the costs would simply overweight the economical demands. But i don't think intersystem drives aren't that extremly expensive - if they were, i think warfare would look different, with more dependence on carriers and not fighters equipped with intersystem drives. And we saw two great evacuations in the game, Capella and Vasuda Prime. Millions and millions were transported off-system in a rather short time, i find it hard to imagine that this would be possible if ships capable of intersystem jumps and life-support capablities for a notable number of people, like designated civil transports, would be something very rare.

Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: TrashMan on March 20, 2013, 02:26:00 am
Let's ask the guy(s) who've already modelled a space liner for Freespace. Only i don't remember what it's called and what campaign it's from.


That would be me. I made 2 liners and 1 civ station. They were the onyl ones out there thet I know off, but that was a while ago.
I'm sure other poeple have made more liners by now.
At least I hope so.


@Orph3us - you make some good points there. I generally like it. Except for the terraforming apocalypse. Terraforming in itself is a massive undertaking that by definition fraks up the "natural" balance and sets up it's own. People visiting can hardly cause an apocalypse, altough introducing a foreign species in an enviroment might slow the process down. It makes sense that during the terraforming process only the terraforming crew would be there, but once the planet is ready?
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 20, 2013, 03:30:53 am
This (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Cruiseship) is the only acceptable-looking liner I know of.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: 0rph3u5 on March 20, 2013, 03:48:04 am
Bear in mind that the GTVA had the lift capacity to evacuate Capella not once, but twice.

I have to check that when I get home but as I remember it the evacuation of Capella never stopped after the Sath 1 was destroyed.

EDIT: Okay I checked now before going out. Damn you HLP.

CB of "Return to Babel" (SM3-03.fs2), stage 2:
"... Until we completely secure the nebula, our evacuation of Capella's civilian population will proceed as planned."

So the evacuation of Capella never ended after the destruction of the Sath 1. Which doesn't invalidate your argument on the numbers of ships involved, point taken there. However we don't exactly know what happened with the Capellans after leaving Capella, maybe they didn't stay on the ships, then the number of evacuation ships could have been smaller, or they did, which implies a large fleet doing the job.

For the Vasudan Prime evacuation, we have no figures. Though it is implied that the evacuees stayed on their ships, we have no cannonical evidence that these ship all were PVFr Satis ("Exodus" suggests that but in that mission you are only operating one of three routes out of Vasuda Prime). Also Vasuda Prime was threatened by invasion at the beginning of FS1, so the planet may have been evacuated to certain degree at some point already.

Also I never said there aren't many intersystem ships, I just said there aren't many companies that run them due to the cost and specific nature of the ships required for commercial use. The GTT Argo might just fit the description as long lifetime and being upgradeable, as I never implied that the ship has to be huge, only its powerplant has to generate the required output for the jumps and that said output (in my fanfic of the FS-verse) was huge unless you used really expensive drives.



@Mebber & Trashman:
I copied most of ideas regarding terraforming from Roger McBride Allen's novels "The Depths of Time", "The Ocean of Years" and  "The Shores of Tomorrow". I've simplified the ideas in most post a lot, if you want the details on Contraction and terraforming close to what I imagine, look there.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
Terraforming/Colonizing a planet is a delicate process and implanted ecosystems by their very nature discourage travel from one planet to another.

That could be a problem, but it's not said that every colonized planet features a complex implanted ecosystem or is even viable for terraforming. If planets which can support garden-world like terraforming is something rare, i think it's save to assume that the colonies will make more use of systems like arcologies, dome habitats and similiar smaller and more easily controlled ecosystems by transforming local resources, which would make it possible to use more 'standarized' ecosystem assets, which is much more cost-effective than to plan an entire complex ecosystem for every new world, and would reduce the impact of possible contamination from another planets colony ecosystem.

The problem in standardizing biological ressources is that biological ressources are envoirment-specific to huge degree. You can just send a successful algea-species from Earth to Mars and hope it will floursih. A species from Earth is largely depened on the specific conditions found on Earth begining with the gravity level (see bone and muscle degereration in members of zero-g missions) and ending with having specific wave-lenghts of light for chemical synthesis, e.g. a planet that can be colonized may not have a sun sporting the right wavelenghts for photosynthesis in green plantlife.
Following that every biological ressource used in terrafroming has be to specific for its target envoriment.

'Controlled' is another key problem here.
Ecosystems are not static but exist in states (note: plural) of equilibrium which account for changing circumstances inside and outside the biological component of the ecosystem. Naturally, changes to the whole are not appearent within a generation of a single species and cannot be measured without taking in accound a timespan of centuries. Changes to a single component, biological or otherwise, are frequent and may be cyclic (like the relation between prey and predator populations) or not. Disruption to the system might pass or it might not. Determining which is the case in any scenario is difficult as the observational span is huge and the timeframe, in which something can be dome about it safely, is small.

Even if you confine an ecosystem to small sealed dome you still have the problem that a) outside contaminats could get in (perhaps on people) or b) that the system itselfs evolves (esspecially on the microlevel) and might upset the carefully tailored balance. In a sealed envoirment the species migration is practically eliminated as well, so a species cannot evade competition by simply 'going' somewhere else where conditions for its growth are met. Without evasion a species would be 'compelled' to either die out or evolve to meet the competition, both are generation long processes which trigger changes across the ecosystem.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
If a ressource cannot be naturally found at a colony site, the colony's society, in the long run, finds a way to substitue the ressource with something readily avalible or easily optainable.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
Economic policy is to restrict production to products that can be manufactured with local supplies in order to limit foreign control over policies in a system.


I agree, but it's more than likely that specific worlds have excesses in specific resources while are short on others, so i think they will focus on producing, refining and processing goods they have and export them, and import goods they lack of. And it's not only about establishing self-sufficiency but also about the growth of (not necessary for survival) wealth which would drive people to trade. And if there is a demand for transporting goods, there will be someone to satisfy this demand.

I played with that idea too. Problem is our lack of knowledge about the distribution of light, heavy and rare element in a planet's crust safe Earth (and maybe Moon and now Mars, although I'm pretty sure there examinations are limited to surface rock). So I assumed the distribution of light, heavy and rare elements in most star systems that have been colonized in the FS-verse to be rather similar and so most colonies would have access to the same ressources in their own system.

Since resource trade was out of picture the trade with produced goods would imply that at site A produced good 1 had a quality other than good 1 produced at site B. Current day most differences in the same good produced at different site are result of either access to the ressources, access to production technology (which in this definition may also include know-how and skill of the workforce) or simply buisness policy (high quality maybe expensive and time-consuming to produce, low quality isn't). As per above, access to ressources isn't a defining factor, and as per the statement of subsitution in my other post, technological access can be factored out as well if you assume a population that has easily access to higher education (a given I assume).

So as it be a matter of buisness policy, you have to factor in the economic system which you apply as a foundation. I prefer to use a model of politically guided market economics (retaining the flexibility of market-based economics but makeing the 'demands/necessities of the market' not a driving force in politics). A system like that would favour high quaility goods as those can easily given a high-price tag due to their long lifetime, which then can be used to balance out the high costs of production due to the cost of labour, meeting goverment regulations and ressources.

That's a lot of assumptions but its also fiction as well.

EDIT: Note: There is one exception in my SoI/WotW-background to the rule of self-sustaining colonial economics, that's GTA-era Earth which had a demand exceeding its in-system supply as Sol was home to the vast majority of the GTA's economic assets
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: BengalTiger on March 20, 2013, 01:20:02 pm
(I can see why :v: never mentioned this anywhere. It's simply not important for the storytelling in FS1 or 2; there's no conceivable situation within the missions of those games where adding a purely civillian ship would have made much sense.)
Capella evacuation.

I won't quote posts I'll be referring to, because this post would be quite huge...

Intersystem travel- In FS 1 subspace drives capable of using nodes from star to star small enough to fit fighters were only becoming available for the military.

I'll use jet engines as an analogy to reality.
The first jet powered military airplane to enter service dates back to 1944, and the first civilian jet liner appeared in 1952.
Now the first personal airplane powered by a jet engine is the Eclipse 500, delivered in 2006.

If the situations are similar, subspace travel would become available for big civilian ships just a few years after the military got it; but personal spacecraft that can use a jump node would have to wait another 50 years or more, and even then only be available for people making rather serious cash for the next couple decades.

That said, if the Elysium was popular in FS 1, my guess is that similar ships are used by airlines all over the GTVA in large quantities.

I'll also agree with the people thinking that interplanetary travel would be done by having shuttles going from planets to installations and back, then liners travelling deeper into space to other installations without ever flying in an atmosphere.

Pirates.

These guys would more than likely fly around in subspace capable tugboats and steal containers from depots. I'd guess that's why the turrets are there for- not for defeating military raids.
If pirates were to be combat oriented, they'd need to steal a freighter and then improvise some weapons. Shuttles smuggling stuff around or used for boarding operations also sound very likely.
I wouldn't expect outdated fighters to be used by pirates en mass.

I also wouldn't expect that many would have the hardware to use subspace nodes.

Police.

I'd expect civilian based shuttles, modified with better systems (mostly to increase durability). If shields are cheap then they may be shielded in more busy areas, same thing with afterburners.

Weapons? Definitely stuff to disable a running criminal as well as equipment allowing quick boarding of vessels. Would a police patrol unit come with an HL-7 or two? State police cars and often big city units in the US have shotguns and rifles as standard equipment (as in both guns in the same car), so it's definitely possible.

The equivalent of federal units working not for local planetary systems but directly for the GTVA would probably enjoy pursuing criminals even if it involves using subspace nodes- they'd definitely come with proper subspace drives in the FS 2 era.

Traffic.

This would become a problem post Capella, when civilians gain massive access to intersystem subspace drives. Until then it's pretty much only big ships traveling through nodes.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: The E on March 20, 2013, 01:37:26 pm
(I can see why :v: never mentioned this anywhere. It's simply not important for the storytelling in FS1 or 2; there's no conceivable situation within the missions of those games where adding a purely civillian ship would have made much sense.)
Capella evacuation.

I don't think that is really applicable. There are freighters there, sure, but we only see evac transports near the end of the evac effort, where the big liners and other ships that have really mass lift capacity have already left the system. And even so, none of those missions tell us anything about the civillian transport economy that exists beyond the fact that there is one.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on March 20, 2013, 02:52:19 pm
Ah, an inspiring thread with thoughtful speculation in Gen FS Disc, just like the good old days!

Given that fighter-size intersystem drives are generally rare, I suspect that there's some economy of scale involved. Which means that megaliners are probably the most efficient (i.e. profitable) way to transport people between star systems. The size of such a 'Megaliner' would of course depend on the market; transporters only make as much profit as the cargo they carry, it's no use hauling empty seats around. That said, I'd expect a similar evolution like we've seen in aviation, where successively larger aircraft brought down the costs enough to make air travel affordable to the masses.
Another factor, beneficial to us modders: there will likely be strong safety regulations for spaceliners (again, like airliners :nervous: ), given the disastrous consequences when things go wrong. The cost of designing such a spacecraft and getting it certified for use probab

Of course, these big ships would cost a lot to operate. So for the tourists who otherwise couldn't afford a space flightmaximum return on investment, they will put their jump drives to full use: arrive at a system, unload passengers onto shuttles while recharging, jump to the next node in-system, take the next batch of passengers on board while recharging, and then jump to the next system. Shuttles will transfer passengers to and from the different stations, planets and other bases in the system. This way, passengers will be able to travel from anywhere to anywhere within a day or so, depending on how long an intersystem jump takes.

Since passengers won't be sitting on these liners for more than a few hours, much like today's long-haul flights, I don't expect exuberant facilities on board - mainly just seats, again like on aircraft. There's probably different booking classes though, so those who can afford it can travel in luxury. There might even be low-cost spaceflight operators - imagine Ryanspace or Spacewest :)
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Lorric on March 20, 2013, 03:02:46 pm
I like it too. I'm surprised how much of an interest has been taken in such a subject, so many people have jumped in with thoughtful posts. It's been interesting reading.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Mongoose on March 20, 2013, 03:50:16 pm
I agree that direct travel from system to system probably wouldn't take all that long, since we've seen from the game that intersystem node travel is generally just a matter of minutes, and then you have however long it takes to make the intrasystem jumps between nodes and recharge drives.  I agree with FSF that you'd probably have intrasystem shuttles docking with the intersystem liners to transfer passengers on and off; alternatively, if there are installations near most nodes, the liners might just transfer passengers there.  However, I think there might also be a luxury market for longer cruises, much like our cruise ships of today.  Those wouldn't just be about getting from point A to point B, but instead about seeing the sights along the way, like jumping into orbit around a really cool gas giant in a certain star system.  They might even dock at a few separate places in one system, or else have shuttles transport passengers to and from a planet for "shore leave."  Obviously this sort of thing would be far more expensive than your standard inter-system flight.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Mobius on March 20, 2013, 04:26:14 pm
I agree that direct travel from system to system probably wouldn't take all that long, since we've seen from the game that intersystem node travel is generally just a matter of minutes, and then you have however long it takes to make the intrasystem jumps between nodes and recharge drives.

Sure, the chase for the Lucifer is the only real example we have from the game, but it doesn't really answer the question "how much it takes to reach Sol from Delta Serpentis?". Reaching the Lucifer in subspace may have taken hours, who knows. Also, travelling at a speed which is FTL may also alter one's perception of time.

Quote from: FreeSpace Reference Bible
There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.
Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable. Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system. There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.
Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely. The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring [sic] focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.” These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140). Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel. The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.

The way I see it, if intrasystem travel is nearly istantaneous, intersystem travel may require hours, if not days, due to the big distances involved.
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: AV8R on April 07, 2013, 07:03:54 pm
Along those lines, wouldn't it seem logical, from a strategic military standpoint, to outfit capital ships (cruiser class and larger) with 2 jump drives? One for intra-system jumps (which requires less power and recharges relatively quickly) and one for inter-system jumps (more powerful but recharges much more slowly).

This way any large military craft can pre-charge their inter-system jump drive, use their intra-system drive to do a jump very near (or inside) a jump node and then fire up the pre-charged inter-system jump drive as soon as they entered the jump node to jump to the next star system. As a (possible) bonus, the intra-system drive can be recharged while in subspace so it would be ready to do an intra-system jump right after emerging from subspace. This avoids the delay (and danger) of waiting near a jump node for a single jump drive to recharge before doing another jump.

Or is there something in the canon about this not being feasible?

(I was gonna comment on the whole relativistic anomolous temporal behavior of moving FTL in real space or how the same rules would probably not apply in subspace but I didn't want to open that can of worms - or check here later only find I had posted this reply last week...)  :P
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 07, 2013, 07:13:02 pm
The way I see it, if intrasystem travel is nearly istantaneous, intersystem travel may require hours, if not days, due to the big distances involved.

Unfortunately our only frame of reference says "a lot less".
Title: Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Post by: Megawolf492 on April 11, 2013, 09:20:53 pm
This way any large military craft can pre-charge their inter-system jump drive, use their intra-system drive to do a jump very near (or inside) a jump node and then fire up the pre-charged inter-system jump drive as soon as they entered the jump node to jump to the next star system. As a (possible) bonus, the intra-system drive can be recharged while in subspace so it would be ready to do an intra-system jump right after emerging from subspace. This avoids the delay (and danger) of waiting near a jump node for a single jump drive to recharge before doing another jump.

Or is there something in the canon about this not being feasible?

We know that the Psamtik was knocked off several clicks from the 2nd Knossos. Now, is that because it's a Knossos, because of the Sathanas, or just normal behavior, we don't know. I'd say it's the latter, because escort missions would be pointless. They could just jump to the node, wait a little bit (even with one drive recharging) while some fighters defend them, and then jump out.