Author Topic: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?  (Read 7207 times)

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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Bear in mind that the GTVA had the lift capacity to evacuate Capella not once, but twice.

I have to check that when I get home but as I remember it the evacuation of Capella never stopped after the Sath 1 was destroyed.

EDIT: Okay I checked now before going out. Damn you HLP.

CB of "Return to Babel" (SM3-03.fs2), stage 2:
"... Until we completely secure the nebula, our evacuation of Capella's civilian population will proceed as planned."

So the evacuation of Capella never ended after the destruction of the Sath 1. Which doesn't invalidate your argument on the numbers of ships involved, point taken there. However we don't exactly know what happened with the Capellans after leaving Capella, maybe they didn't stay on the ships, then the number of evacuation ships could have been smaller, or they did, which implies a large fleet doing the job.

For the Vasudan Prime evacuation, we have no figures. Though it is implied that the evacuees stayed on their ships, we have no cannonical evidence that these ship all were PVFr Satis ("Exodus" suggests that but in that mission you are only operating one of three routes out of Vasuda Prime). Also Vasuda Prime was threatened by invasion at the beginning of FS1, so the planet may have been evacuated to certain degree at some point already.

Also I never said there aren't many intersystem ships, I just said there aren't many companies that run them due to the cost and specific nature of the ships required for commercial use. The GTT Argo might just fit the description as long lifetime and being upgradeable, as I never implied that the ship has to be huge, only its powerplant has to generate the required output for the jumps and that said output (in my fanfic of the FS-verse) was huge unless you used really expensive drives.



@Mebber & Trashman:
I copied most of ideas regarding terraforming from Roger McBride Allen's novels "The Depths of Time", "The Ocean of Years" and  "The Shores of Tomorrow". I've simplified the ideas in most post a lot, if you want the details on Contraction and terraforming close to what I imagine, look there.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
Terraforming/Colonizing a planet is a delicate process and implanted ecosystems by their very nature discourage travel from one planet to another.

That could be a problem, but it's not said that every colonized planet features a complex implanted ecosystem or is even viable for terraforming. If planets which can support garden-world like terraforming is something rare, i think it's save to assume that the colonies will make more use of systems like arcologies, dome habitats and similiar smaller and more easily controlled ecosystems by transforming local resources, which would make it possible to use more 'standarized' ecosystem assets, which is much more cost-effective than to plan an entire complex ecosystem for every new world, and would reduce the impact of possible contamination from another planets colony ecosystem.

The problem in standardizing biological ressources is that biological ressources are envoirment-specific to huge degree. You can just send a successful algea-species from Earth to Mars and hope it will floursih. A species from Earth is largely depened on the specific conditions found on Earth begining with the gravity level (see bone and muscle degereration in members of zero-g missions) and ending with having specific wave-lenghts of light for chemical synthesis, e.g. a planet that can be colonized may not have a sun sporting the right wavelenghts for photosynthesis in green plantlife.
Following that every biological ressource used in terrafroming has be to specific for its target envoriment.

'Controlled' is another key problem here.
Ecosystems are not static but exist in states (note: plural) of equilibrium which account for changing circumstances inside and outside the biological component of the ecosystem. Naturally, changes to the whole are not appearent within a generation of a single species and cannot be measured without taking in accound a timespan of centuries. Changes to a single component, biological or otherwise, are frequent and may be cyclic (like the relation between prey and predator populations) or not. Disruption to the system might pass or it might not. Determining which is the case in any scenario is difficult as the observational span is huge and the timeframe, in which something can be dome about it safely, is small.

Even if you confine an ecosystem to small sealed dome you still have the problem that a) outside contaminats could get in (perhaps on people) or b) that the system itselfs evolves (esspecially on the microlevel) and might upset the carefully tailored balance. In a sealed envoirment the species migration is practically eliminated as well, so a species cannot evade competition by simply 'going' somewhere else where conditions for its growth are met. Without evasion a species would be 'compelled' to either die out or evolve to meet the competition, both are generation long processes which trigger changes across the ecosystem.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
If a ressource cannot be naturally found at a colony site, the colony's society, in the long run, finds a way to substitue the ressource with something readily avalible or easily optainable.

Quote from: 0rph3u5
Economic policy is to restrict production to products that can be manufactured with local supplies in order to limit foreign control over policies in a system.


I agree, but it's more than likely that specific worlds have excesses in specific resources while are short on others, so i think they will focus on producing, refining and processing goods they have and export them, and import goods they lack of. And it's not only about establishing self-sufficiency but also about the growth of (not necessary for survival) wealth which would drive people to trade. And if there is a demand for transporting goods, there will be someone to satisfy this demand.

I played with that idea too. Problem is our lack of knowledge about the distribution of light, heavy and rare element in a planet's crust safe Earth (and maybe Moon and now Mars, although I'm pretty sure there examinations are limited to surface rock). So I assumed the distribution of light, heavy and rare elements in most star systems that have been colonized in the FS-verse to be rather similar and so most colonies would have access to the same ressources in their own system.

Since resource trade was out of picture the trade with produced goods would imply that at site A produced good 1 had a quality other than good 1 produced at site B. Current day most differences in the same good produced at different site are result of either access to the ressources, access to production technology (which in this definition may also include know-how and skill of the workforce) or simply buisness policy (high quality maybe expensive and time-consuming to produce, low quality isn't). As per above, access to ressources isn't a defining factor, and as per the statement of subsitution in my other post, technological access can be factored out as well if you assume a population that has easily access to higher education (a given I assume).

So as it be a matter of buisness policy, you have to factor in the economic system which you apply as a foundation. I prefer to use a model of politically guided market economics (retaining the flexibility of market-based economics but makeing the 'demands/necessities of the market' not a driving force in politics). A system like that would favour high quaility goods as those can easily given a high-price tag due to their long lifetime, which then can be used to balance out the high costs of production due to the cost of labour, meeting goverment regulations and ressources.

That's a lot of assumptions but its also fiction as well.

EDIT: Note: There is one exception in my SoI/WotW-background to the rule of self-sustaining colonial economics, that's GTA-era Earth which had a demand exceeding its in-system supply as Sol was home to the vast majority of the GTA's economic assets
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 06:42:53 am by 0rph3u5 »
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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
(I can see why :v: never mentioned this anywhere. It's simply not important for the storytelling in FS1 or 2; there's no conceivable situation within the missions of those games where adding a purely civillian ship would have made much sense.)
Capella evacuation.

I won't quote posts I'll be referring to, because this post would be quite huge...

Intersystem travel- In FS 1 subspace drives capable of using nodes from star to star small enough to fit fighters were only becoming available for the military.

I'll use jet engines as an analogy to reality.
The first jet powered military airplane to enter service dates back to 1944, and the first civilian jet liner appeared in 1952.
Now the first personal airplane powered by a jet engine is the Eclipse 500, delivered in 2006.

If the situations are similar, subspace travel would become available for big civilian ships just a few years after the military got it; but personal spacecraft that can use a jump node would have to wait another 50 years or more, and even then only be available for people making rather serious cash for the next couple decades.

That said, if the Elysium was popular in FS 1, my guess is that similar ships are used by airlines all over the GTVA in large quantities.

I'll also agree with the people thinking that interplanetary travel would be done by having shuttles going from planets to installations and back, then liners travelling deeper into space to other installations without ever flying in an atmosphere.

Pirates.

These guys would more than likely fly around in subspace capable tugboats and steal containers from depots. I'd guess that's why the turrets are there for- not for defeating military raids.
If pirates were to be combat oriented, they'd need to steal a freighter and then improvise some weapons. Shuttles smuggling stuff around or used for boarding operations also sound very likely.
I wouldn't expect outdated fighters to be used by pirates en mass.

I also wouldn't expect that many would have the hardware to use subspace nodes.

Police.

I'd expect civilian based shuttles, modified with better systems (mostly to increase durability). If shields are cheap then they may be shielded in more busy areas, same thing with afterburners.

Weapons? Definitely stuff to disable a running criminal as well as equipment allowing quick boarding of vessels. Would a police patrol unit come with an HL-7 or two? State police cars and often big city units in the US have shotguns and rifles as standard equipment (as in both guns in the same car), so it's definitely possible.

The equivalent of federal units working not for local planetary systems but directly for the GTVA would probably enjoy pursuing criminals even if it involves using subspace nodes- they'd definitely come with proper subspace drives in the FS 2 era.

Traffic.

This would become a problem post Capella, when civilians gain massive access to intersystem subspace drives. Until then it's pretty much only big ships traveling through nodes.
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Offline The E

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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
(I can see why :v: never mentioned this anywhere. It's simply not important for the storytelling in FS1 or 2; there's no conceivable situation within the missions of those games where adding a purely civillian ship would have made much sense.)
Capella evacuation.

I don't think that is really applicable. There are freighters there, sure, but we only see evac transports near the end of the evac effort, where the big liners and other ships that have really mass lift capacity have already left the system. And even so, none of those missions tell us anything about the civillian transport economy that exists beyond the fact that there is one.
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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Ah, an inspiring thread with thoughtful speculation in Gen FS Disc, just like the good old days!

Given that fighter-size intersystem drives are generally rare, I suspect that there's some economy of scale involved. Which means that megaliners are probably the most efficient (i.e. profitable) way to transport people between star systems. The size of such a 'Megaliner' would of course depend on the market; transporters only make as much profit as the cargo they carry, it's no use hauling empty seats around. That said, I'd expect a similar evolution like we've seen in aviation, where successively larger aircraft brought down the costs enough to make air travel affordable to the masses.
Another factor, beneficial to us modders: there will likely be strong safety regulations for spaceliners (again, like airliners :nervous: ), given the disastrous consequences when things go wrong. The cost of designing such a spacecraft and getting it certified for use probab

Of course, these big ships would cost a lot to operate. So for the tourists who otherwise couldn't afford a space flightmaximum return on investment, they will put their jump drives to full use: arrive at a system, unload passengers onto shuttles while recharging, jump to the next node in-system, take the next batch of passengers on board while recharging, and then jump to the next system. Shuttles will transfer passengers to and from the different stations, planets and other bases in the system. This way, passengers will be able to travel from anywhere to anywhere within a day or so, depending on how long an intersystem jump takes.

Since passengers won't be sitting on these liners for more than a few hours, much like today's long-haul flights, I don't expect exuberant facilities on board - mainly just seats, again like on aircraft. There's probably different booking classes though, so those who can afford it can travel in luxury. There might even be low-cost spaceflight operators - imagine Ryanspace or Spacewest :)

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
I like it too. I'm surprised how much of an interest has been taken in such a subject, so many people have jumped in with thoughtful posts. It's been interesting reading.

  

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
I agree that direct travel from system to system probably wouldn't take all that long, since we've seen from the game that intersystem node travel is generally just a matter of minutes, and then you have however long it takes to make the intrasystem jumps between nodes and recharge drives.  I agree with FSF that you'd probably have intrasystem shuttles docking with the intersystem liners to transfer passengers on and off; alternatively, if there are installations near most nodes, the liners might just transfer passengers there.  However, I think there might also be a luxury market for longer cruises, much like our cruise ships of today.  Those wouldn't just be about getting from point A to point B, but instead about seeing the sights along the way, like jumping into orbit around a really cool gas giant in a certain star system.  They might even dock at a few separate places in one system, or else have shuttles transport passengers to and from a planet for "shore leave."  Obviously this sort of thing would be far more expensive than your standard inter-system flight.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
I agree that direct travel from system to system probably wouldn't take all that long, since we've seen from the game that intersystem node travel is generally just a matter of minutes, and then you have however long it takes to make the intrasystem jumps between nodes and recharge drives.

Sure, the chase for the Lucifer is the only real example we have from the game, but it doesn't really answer the question "how much it takes to reach Sol from Delta Serpentis?". Reaching the Lucifer in subspace may have taken hours, who knows. Also, travelling at a speed which is FTL may also alter one's perception of time.

Quote from: FreeSpace Reference Bible
There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.
Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable. Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system. There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.
Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely. The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring [sic] focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.” These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140). Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel. The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.

The way I see it, if intrasystem travel is nearly istantaneous, intersystem travel may require hours, if not days, due to the big distances involved.
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Offline AV8R

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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
Along those lines, wouldn't it seem logical, from a strategic military standpoint, to outfit capital ships (cruiser class and larger) with 2 jump drives? One for intra-system jumps (which requires less power and recharges relatively quickly) and one for inter-system jumps (more powerful but recharges much more slowly).

This way any large military craft can pre-charge their inter-system jump drive, use their intra-system drive to do a jump very near (or inside) a jump node and then fire up the pre-charged inter-system jump drive as soon as they entered the jump node to jump to the next star system. As a (possible) bonus, the intra-system drive can be recharged while in subspace so it would be ready to do an intra-system jump right after emerging from subspace. This avoids the delay (and danger) of waiting near a jump node for a single jump drive to recharge before doing another jump.

Or is there something in the canon about this not being feasible?

(I was gonna comment on the whole relativistic anomolous temporal behavior of moving FTL in real space or how the same rules would probably not apply in subspace but I didn't want to open that can of worms - or check here later only find I had posted this reply last week...)  :P

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
The way I see it, if intrasystem travel is nearly istantaneous, intersystem travel may require hours, if not days, due to the big distances involved.

Unfortunately our only frame of reference says "a lot less".
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Re: Space liners in the FreeSpace continuity. How would they work?
This way any large military craft can pre-charge their inter-system jump drive, use their intra-system drive to do a jump very near (or inside) a jump node and then fire up the pre-charged inter-system jump drive as soon as they entered the jump node to jump to the next star system. As a (possible) bonus, the intra-system drive can be recharged while in subspace so it would be ready to do an intra-system jump right after emerging from subspace. This avoids the delay (and danger) of waiting near a jump node for a single jump drive to recharge before doing another jump.

Or is there something in the canon about this not being feasible?

We know that the Psamtik was knocked off several clicks from the 2nd Knossos. Now, is that because it's a Knossos, because of the Sathanas, or just normal behavior, we don't know. I'd say it's the latter, because escort missions would be pointless. They could just jump to the node, wait a little bit (even with one drive recharging) while some fighters defend them, and then jump out.