Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: qazwsx on April 08, 2013, 07:04:37 am
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155
Well, I know some people will be celebrating tonight :rolleyes:
I won't be, a death is a horrid thing to celebrate.
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as is her life
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I never liked Thatcher and hated her policies. But nobody deserves the ill-health she suffered towards the end of her life, nor the death she had.
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Not a right winger, but I am a big fan of hers. What a person! Very very sorry to hear this news.
as is her life
The kind of remark I could never bring myself to express. Nauseates me a little.
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I think this thread has a high potential to get real ugly real fast.
I'm too young to know what she was like, but my Grandad thought she was magnificent. He loved her. And My Mum always voted for her too, so I've always had the impression she was this great, strong leader that didn't take **** from anybody, and we've never had anyone better since. I just asked my Mum why she liked her, and she says it's because she (Thatcher) whenever she spoke, you felt she meant what she said, and she was going to do what she said, and didn't mess around, while today's politicians, you ask them a question and they just dance circles around it.
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and you know she systematically destroyed the livelihoods of the british working class, but i guess she deserves praise for doing it with conviction
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This woman was a evil malicious *****. The suffering she went through at the end is nothing compared to the lives she destroyed and the communities left wrecked in her wake. ROT IN HELL! :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbp3k3rYMs4
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Though to be sure it's dead we must drive a stake through the heart, dismember the corspe, cut off the head and place it atop a Glasgow urinal.
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I would like to ask everyone involved here to remain civil.
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History will not forget her. It may not always remember her favourably, but it will remember her.
Personally I'm of mixed opinion, it's against my nature to celebrate death of any kind, but Thatcher's 'successes' of the 80's turned out to be the time-bombs of the 2K's, particularly in the financial and education sectors.
She was a great Diplomat, did good things for the UK Abroad (apart from Argentina, of course) but her own insecurity at being the first female PM probably made her over-compensate and by the end of her final term, she genuinely seemed to be completely paranoid, and took every form of dissent as a personal insult and that damaged the entire country.
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Good thing those aren't my views then, but it's strange to have always had this inherited high opinion of her, and you all think she was gutterscum.
However, celebrating her death is very wrong I feel. The moment she left politics is the time to rejoice if you didn't like her, and then there's no need for anything else. She is "dead" then, in the terms she can't do any harm, she has no power. She was harmless and irrelevant long before her death. I've never seen her in the news past her reign that I can remember, meaning I don't think she exerted any influence after.
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I think it depends largely on where you were and what you did in the case of Thatcher. My wife is from Glasgow, which Thatcher used as a kind of petri-dish for the Poll Tax, so there are very strong feelings about her there.
I'm not saying everything she did was bad, or that I would celebrate her death in any way, but I do understand why this is such a divisive issue.
Edit: I suppose the difference for me is that I was in the generation of children that grew up in the Thatcher years. I was 9 when she came into Office for her first term, and 20 when she left her final one, so I really did kind of grow up under Thatcher.
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I also grew up under Thatcher and I was very glad when she left politics. After that, I really didn't care much about her as the damage she could do to the country was pretty much limited. So I'm not going to celebrate her death, but I can't ever really forgive her for what she did while she was in charge of the UK.
That said, if I'm being fair to her, there were some good things about her too. She was the last prime minister we've had with a spine, for one thing.
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Love or hate her policies, you have to respect her. Quite the woman and politician.
EDIT: I always find it interesting how much vile she receives from some UK citizens, as she's quite well-regarded by Britain's allies for her foreign policy.
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What's with all those people who made history dying recently? I've never seen such concentration of famous people deaths since about halfway into 2012. Maybe it's just statistics, but it's a bit unsettling to see all those names you know from history books and hear that they recently died.
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It's just statistics.
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What's with all those people who made history dying recently? I've never seen such concentration of famous people deaths since about halfway into 2012. Maybe it's just statistics, but it's a bit unsettling to see all those names you know from history books and hear that they recently died.
There's a bit of a joke among followers and teachers of Cold War history that Cold War veterans live / have lived forever. We're only now starting to see some of the more prominent political and state veterans of the Cold War era reaching the end of their lives. Quite a number of prominent players from the Cold War have lived well into their late-80s and 90s.
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She was ****ing spot on about the Euro, I'll give her that at least.
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This woman and her government regarded the Chilean dictator Pinochet (who murdered thousands) as a great friend, opposed sanctions against Apartheid South Africa, supported the Khmer Rouge and sold weapons to Saddam Hussein. Yes some great foreign policy decisions there :nono:
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While I have nothing against the woman personally, I do hold quite the grudge against her as a politician as she did some questionable things. Now that she's dead, i won't even hold that.
Though I just know that some yobs are going to get royally pissed and do something stupid like dance on her grave, or piss on it.
Hmm, I wonder if it'll get the same coverage as when that guy pissed on the Cenotaph. And if so, how much of the public will actually care?
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This woman and her government regarded the Chilean dictator Pinochet (who murdered thousands) as a great friend, opposed sanctions against Apartheid South Africa, supported the Khmer Rouge and sold weapons to Saddam Hussein. Yes some great foreign policy decisions there :nono:
...and laid the groundwork that ultimately crushed the pIRA's military movement and later forced it into the political power-sharing seen today, was instrumental in policies that forced the collapse of the Soviet Union, politically led of the sovereign defense of a British territory that could have simply been conveniently given up, and promoted the advancement of freedoms and liberty in the former Communist Bloc.
Every country was guilty of myopia concerning Latin America in the 80s and 90s; doesn't mean Thatcher should have been forgiven for it, but it puts her views in perspective (Pinochet also counted George Bush Sr among his friends). Saddam was funded and supplied with intel by several NATO countries for a multitude of reasons for quite some time (hint: Iran). Opposition to sanctions in South Africa were on the wrong side of history, I'll grant, and as for your claims about "supporting the Khmer Rouge," if you're referring to the UN backing of the Khmer Rouge by a number of Western governments, she certainly wasn't out of the ballpark of her contemporaries either. Black marks? Sure, but, when put in context, considerably less significant than her foreign policy successes,
I know there are some hardcore Thatcher-haters in the UK - you appear to count yourself among them - but she was quite well-respected for her foreign policy, and for good reason.
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Remember, those were the days when Realpolitiks was the game. Thatcher was quite passionately ideological for that time.
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I wasnt born until 1984 so have very little first hand recollections of her.
for those looking from the outside of the UK, while her foreign policy might have been not bad she was the death nail of UK heavy industry which was the backbone of the UK working sector which meant in most places there was a job for anyone who wanted one. With nothing to replace it the UK has been in a constant struggle to recover from that, as a result several regions of the UK are still under EU employment development funding.
The reason she was the death of industry was her determination to break the strong unions which protected them and often were opposed to her policies.
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I remember spending the 80s wishing we (the US) could trade heads of state with the UK. Those were the days...
Though I just know that some yobs are going to get royally pissed and do something stupid like dance on her grave, or piss on it.
Hmm, I wonder if it'll get the same coverage as when that guy pissed on the Cenotaph. And if so, how much of the public will actually care?
I'd imagine it won't get any more coverage/caring than when Reagan's grave was danced upon. So, basically none.
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She's the only game in town right now on the news, from when I ate my tea just now. Makes a change at least from having to look at the ugly mug of Kim Jong Un. She must have done something right to get elected 3 times anyway. They were playing it pretty straight by the looks of it, they obviously have to be nice because she's dead, but they did keep mentioning that she divided opinion and showed one guy saying he was happy she was dead and anti-Thatcher protests back in the day inbetween people saying nice things about her. She's getting a lavish funeral by the looks of it.
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Sounds like Reagan in the US. People love them for some reason, while they went about ****ing everyone that isnt super rich.
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She must have done something right to get elected 3 times anyway.
she was the the known devil, Labour at the time was a mess iirc and the Lib dems have always been the "protest vote"
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Also, you need to look at the distribution of voting areas in the UK. Keep London and the South East happy and you can get a large chunk of Parliamentary seats right there.
Whilst it's a complex issue of why there is such a vast density of voting districts around London, much related to population density, it does tend to lead to a 'London-centric' style of Governance that has been a problem for a while.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2432632/UK-General-Election-2010-political-map.html
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The reason she was the death of industry was her determination to break the strong unions which protected them and often were opposed to her policies.
Maybe she was the death of the British Industry, but in a different kind of way.
By allowing the German reunification... and the following transformation of the former Socialistic States in Eastern Europe that created a lot of competition. Many manufacturing jobs - especially for unskilled workers - went during the 90s to Eastern Europe.
And breaking the strong unions... well, the unions brake down the Labour Government. 27% inflation and strikes for higher wages were not helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
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It is interesting to see how she's getting an overall more positive appraisal over here than it seems she enjoys in her own country.
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It's becasue she stopped the kids over here getting a free carton of milk with lunch at school for decades. Hell, my primary school didn't do milk for students until after I left in 2004.
Here's what they have now:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3333/4642327407_5c26563a1e_z.jpg)
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It is interesting to see how she's getting an overall more positive appraisal over here than it seems she enjoys in her own country.
Maggie's policies would nearly pass for Democrat in the US these days, hence why she tended to be well-liked in the US and Canada.
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And breaking the strong unions... well, the unions brake down the Labour Government. 27% inflation and strikes for higher wages were not helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
Yep, it's pretty true that while I hate the way she threw British manufacturing under the bus in order to break the unions, it was the unions who gave her the stick to beat them with.
Maggie's policies would nearly pass for Democrat in the US these days, hence why she tended to be well-liked in the US and Canada.
Yes but they happened in a very socialist country. As a result I find it quite funny when I hear people complaining about living under Bush or Obama. Neither made changes to their country even remotely close to those made by Thatcher.
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Rehearsals begin for Maggie Thatcher's funeral.
(http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/523643_10201051727914996_1461825410_n.jpg)
Just someone on Facebook. I thought it was amusing
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Show of hands, who here can name the one group of British subjects who are 100% behind Thatcher?
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Well given that even on the Falkland Islands 3 people voted against the referendum, nope.
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I feel like such a bastard for finding this funny still. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmmomV-ax-s
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Well given that even on the Falkland Islands 3 people voted against the referendum, nope.
They're Argentine androids, they don't count.
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I feel like such a bastard for finding this funny still. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmmomV-ax-s
That Scot with the glasses (I've no idea who he is) is hilarious.
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that's frankie boyle, his schtick is being outrageously tasteless (but he does it well)
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My only experience with thatcher is through a musical adaptation of Billy Elliot, so...
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So where's our resident Argentine nationalist anyways? I want to hear his commentary so he can accuse me of being biased and against him.
User banned for one week for this post. - Fineus
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So where's our resident Argentine nationalist anyways? I want to hear his commentary so he can accuse me of being biased and against him.
:rolleyes: Oh just drop it...
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1. Industrial production declined by 25% in her first few years as Prime Minister and didn't return to the level at the beginning of her tenure for a decade. The mining industry never recovered from her destruction of the NUM. Presided over the end of British manufacturing power
2. Like Reagan, engaged in pro-rentier policies that favored finance and real-estate leveraging at the expense of any actual wealth creation
3. Launched the Falkland Islands war at the nadir of her popularity during the early 80s recession, leading to an easy reelection campaign
4. Child poverty rate more than doubled during her tenure
5. Was ignominiously removed from office when the the British public refused en masse to pay a poll tax on properties she had instituted
That's all you need to know about her. Put all that on her tombstone.
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:rolleyes: Oh just drop it...
Dude, it's hilarious and awesome. I need him to tell me how I feel and think, I'd never know without him!
No but seriously, he's never resisted a chance to get nationalist on us before.
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NG, drop it please.
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NGTM-1R has been banned for one week (commencing now) for the above comment. We do not condone blatant flame-bait and I'm tired of standing for it.
Kindly carry on with the topic or move on entirely - this one is not open for debate or comment.
Thank you.
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1. Industrial production declined by 25% in her first few years as Prime Minister and didn't return to the level at the beginning of her tenure for a decade. The mining industry never recovered from her destruction of the NUM. Presided over the end of British manufacturing power
2. Like Reagan, engaged in pro-rentier policies that favored finance and real-estate leveraging at the expense of any actual wealth creation
3. Launched the Falkland Islands war at the nadir of her popularity during the early 80s recession, leading to an easy reelection campaign
4. Child poverty rate more than doubled during her tenure
5. Was ignominiously removed from office when the the British public refused en masse to pay a poll tax on properties she had instituted
That's all you need to know about her. Put all that on her tombstone.
That's impressing, and all their fault, isn't it ? ;)
That dropping of industrial production is only their fault, and no effect of the politics of former governments and the start of the globalisation (like cheaper coal imported from abroad killing the mining industry) ?
The rising of the financial sector is only their fault, no effect of the world wide economic boom after the end of the cold war ?
And she arranged the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands to launch the war ? ;)
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The early 1980's recession was caused by the incoming Thatcher administration's tight monetary policy. Like Reagan her administration also carried out the deregulation of the British financial sector and this led to a debt fueled housing bubble that is now in its third or fourth iteration.
Also, world wide economic boom after the end of the Cold War? There was a terrible worldwide recession in 1990 and things didn't pick up again until 1994, when there was another round of deregulation that set off the stock market boom that eventually became the dotcom bubble.
As much as I don't like to play this card, you don't know anything about economics or history, do you?
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The early 1980's recession was caused by the incoming Thatcher administration's tight monetary policy. Like Reagan her administration also carried out the deregulation of the British financial sector and this led to a debt fueled housing bubble that is now in its third or fourth iteration.
Also, world wide economic boom after the end of the Cold War? There was a terrible worldwide recession in 1990 and things didn't pick up again until 1994, when there was another round of deregulation that set off the stock market boom that eventually became the dotcom bubble.
As much as I don't like to play this card, you don't know anything about economics or history, do you?
I know enough about economics and history to know that you can't blame a only single person for everything that went wrong - especially in the first year of their term.
And I know enough about history to know what you should blame the attacker for starting a war, not the defender... ;)
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(http://www.troll.me/images/winter-is-coming/brace-yourselves-theres-a-****storm-brewing-thumb.jpg)
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And I know enough about history to know what you should blame the attacker for starting a war, not the defender... ;)
So Argentina then?
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al-rik is pro-thatcher if you hadn't noticed
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I think I got a little lost as to who was on which side in the last exchange. :p
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Happens to all of us.
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Meanwhile (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/apr/11/bbc-ding-dong-thatcher-facebook), in related news.
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The most fulfilling part of it is watching Daily Mail readers frothing at the mouth ;)
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The early 1980's recession was caused by the incoming Thatcher administration's tight monetary policy. Like Reagan her administration also carried out the deregulation of the British financial sector and this led to a debt fueled housing bubble that is now in its third or fourth iteration.
Also, world wide economic boom after the end of the Cold War? There was a terrible worldwide recession in 1990 and things didn't pick up again until 1994, when there was another round of deregulation that set off the stock market boom that eventually became the dotcom bubble.
As much as I don't like to play this card, you don't know anything about economics or history, do you?
I know enough about economics and history to know that you can't blame a only single person for everything that went wrong - especially in the first year of their term.
And I know enough about history to know what you should blame the attacker for starting a war, not the defender... ;)
You're right on the first count. If you want to trace the decline of industry in the America and Britain, the threads go back to the early 1960s.
But the drastic change of British economic policy in the early 1980s that inflicted massive long term damage was carried out on her watch, with her enthusiastic endorsement and participation. You're right, you can't blame everything on one person, but one person or a political faction swept to power can play a big role in events. In case you forgot.
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Is it just me, or have people been celebrating a little too hard over people dying, lately?
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Well, that's the thing that kind of annoys me, when divisive leaders in other countries die, the BBC is quite content to show film of people cheering and burning effigies etc, but when it comes to one of our own divisive leaders, suddenly celebrations are 'uncalled for' and 'disrespectful'...
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The person deserves some respect. The myth needs to be destroyed.
Here's a better explanation of what went wrong with Thatcher's policies than anything I could come up with:
http://www.concertedaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Wynne-Godley-Why-I-Wont-Apologize.jpg
The prosecution rests.
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Whilst I agree that respect is important, with someone like Thatcher there is bound to be a schism between the two sides. Whilst I'm certainly not suggesting that having parties etc is nice or respectful, it's not intended to be.
Look at it this way, from a far more extreme example, there was an awful lot of effort made to consolidate the pro- and anti- Gaddafi groups after the end of the civil war in Libya, both sides had their reasons to feel as they did, whether the other side or outside observers agreed with those opinions or not. However, what concerns me is that, in the UK, it seems to be put across purely as people doing it to be rude, and very little attention has been paid to why these people are acting as they do. There seems to be a general impression that they are just 'sore' because they got the ****ty end of the stick when Thatcher was in Office.
As you say, this isn't really about Thatcher, who left the Political scene decades ago, it's about the legacy she left behind. Of course the difference is that it is unlikely that pro- and anti- Thatcherites will start killing each other, but simply dismissing them as being disrespectful is, in my opinion, the worst way for the media to approach the problem. There is a lot of very strong feeling about the matter, and ignoring one side because their methodology might be offensive to the other may cause more problems than it solves.
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Meanwhile in Scotland. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22135316)
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There is a reason that there is only one Conservative MP in Scotland.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/she-convinced-us-scotland-was-a-different-country.20785950
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Seems ironic that the Scots want independence because of a leader who was also widely hated in England and Wales too.