Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Scourge of Ages on May 21, 2013, 04:24:49 pm
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I guess the subject says it all. The re-boot of the classic console franchise is out in the open now. Have some links:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/43527/xbox-1-the-new-xbox-is-unveiled-and-this-is-what-it-looks-like
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/magazines/fortune/2013/05/21/meet-the-new-microsoft-xbox.fortune/index.html
http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/21/4350662/new-xbox-has-no-backwards-compatibilty
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/407912/microsoft-confirms-pre-owned-fee-for-xbox-one/
Thoughts?
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What in the Hell is going on with these companies, lately?
It's like they fired all of the competent people, kept on the ancient suits to make terrible decisions, and hired a bunch of inexperienced (at best) kids just out of college to actually make the stuff.
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Let the haet begin.
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er. In what way?
I do like how they actually presented the physical console compared to Sony.
Sad that I can't play 360 games on it. Hope they make like Sony and stream those or something.
Don't care about live action halo series.
Like the new controller.
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Don't care about live action halo series.
If it's as good as Forward Unto Dawn, I'm cool with it.
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I kinda forget about that. I did like that. For the reveal, I am more interested in the games though.
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All other things aside, the name is pretty damn stupid. Like, didn't we already have an XBox "One"? Came out around 2001 or so? :p
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All of this and not a single mention of the always connected Kinect and the MS "surveillance"? You missed out on an excellent chance to reference 1984 as well. Shame. :nono:
EDIT: :lol: Rei7 (Kotaku) They called it Xbox One cause they just took 359 steps backwards.
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it's..... a ****ing vcr?
i don't understand
it's just this black shiny box
wat
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it's..... a ****ing vcr?
i don't understand
it's just this black shiny box
wat
TBH I like that aesthetic more than the weird curvy crap that the 360 and PS3 were. But that's just me, as long as it works I guess it's fine.
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it's..... a ****ing vcr?
i don't understand
it's just this black shiny box
wat
MINIMALISME
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Not seeing much I care about.
I have no gripes with its look. I mean, who the hell cares what it looks like? It's what it does that's important.
Watch live TV, movies, and surf the web? Yeah, don't care, computer does all that already. Besides, Live TV is dying a slow death due to the Internet, so that's not really worth much.
New Kinect? It was a gimmick on the 360, it's a gimmick now. The voice commands are mildly interesting, but still sound primitive and clunky.
No backwards compatibility? Unfortunate, but I can understand the reasons why. Still, it's disappointing that MS is doing absolutely nothing to make older games playable on the new system, while Sony is.
I'm still waiting to see what the final verdict is on the whole used games deal, as there seems to be a lot of conflicting information flying around on that subject at the moment.
As for the games, zero interest in any that they mentioned. I realize it's still early and a release list is way far off, but the opening round isn't promising.
On the whole, the PS4 is looking like the winner at the moment. We'll have to see.
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Always been a Playstation guy, and I've not seen anything so far that makes me want to change. The fee for secondhand games sounds like an enormous off putter - I initially thought it was going to be 5 bucks or whatever - a token amount to make second hand games less competetive with things like the platinum range, but the articles imply it'll be full game price. Bugger that. Admittedly, it wouldn't be a huge factor for me, as I only have... I think 2 second hand games as it is? But still...
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honestly black wolf, as if any major media corporation would consider adapting to a non-scarce digital market by changing their business models rather than trying to pretend they're still selling you brand new physical discs in the early 90s
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The requirement of a net connection seems to be the most hilarious thing about this release. Everything MS have said about how often it needs to connect seems to say "We're still trying to figure out how much we can **** people over and still have them buy one."
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Honestly the only new system I'm really interested in is the Wii U, primarily because Ninty's first-party mainstays are the only exclusives I truly care about. (Now if only the poor thing would get some of said games released for it...) I might pick up a PS3 at some point for a few of those series I've missed, but other than Halo and Gears, does the XBox line even have much exclusivity to be noted?
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Microsoft's strategy in a nutshell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoYWdHe4tQ4)
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Will the other companies apply similar restrictions? If not, it might as well be the Xbox One and Done, it's going to get crushed.
And let's not forget mandatory installation. How much will these take up? How much to fill up the 500gb? Games are getting fatter. Will you be able to uninstall and move your games around/finish with certain games, or need a 2nd machine?
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So far (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-27-ps4-architect-knew-in-2007-that-clearly-we-had-some-issues-with-playstation-3) Sony seems to be "the cool guy (http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/05/08/sony-never-considered-making-the-ps4-always-online/)" around.
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The PS4 seems like it has a real technical advantage in the way the PS3 didn't, maybe even over current and near future PCs. Interested to see how the status quo mixes up.
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The PS4 seems like it has a real technical advantage in the way the PS3 didn't, maybe even over current and near future PCs. Interested to see how the status quo mixes up.
... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.
To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.
it's..... a ****ing vcr?
i don't understand
it's just this black shiny box
wat
It should be a brick. It does more damage when you throw it that way.
It also actually fits in with the rest of your home theater stuff better that way, but who cares about that?
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... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.
To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.
I think you're underestimating a few things. One is the insane amount of memory bandwidth the PS4 has. Two, having the GPU and CPU sitting on the same bus, reading the same memory has a rather big advantage in that you can save a lot of otherwise necessary copy operations. Three, Consoles in general do not have abstraction layers like the Windows Display Driver Model, or DirectX, meaning that it's very much possible to program these machines very close to the metal. While the specs do not seem to be that impressive when compared to the kind of i7/GTX TITAN monster rigs it is possible to build in PC land, there's a lot more potential for programmers to really exploit.
Given that we're currently in a phase where graphics programming has hit a point of diminishing returns (Higher levels of fidelity do not offer the same kind of jump in quality as in earlier generations), and given that the industry can't really afford another budget increase like the one we saw going from Xbox/PS2 to 360/PS3, the fact that these systems are not going to compete against the aforementioned monster rigs for raw performance is less relevant than you seem to think.
Both the SportBox One and the PS4 have enough juice to do 1080p at 30 FPS, and doing 1080p at 60 is just a matter of optimization.
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I hope 60fps is new standard in those next gen consoles. 30fps is just horrid.
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The PS4 seems like it has a real technical advantage in the way the PS3 didn't, maybe even over current and near future PCs. Interested to see how the status quo mixes up.
... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.
To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.
The reason the PS4 may outperform PCs is the huge amount of unified memory and memory bandwidth. PC GPUs don't really have this amount of VRAM to work with. In the long run PCs will obviously pull ahead again, but it should be an interesting next couple years. Console developers always have the advantage of being able to work directly with a fixed hardware set.
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http://youtu.be/KbWgUO-Rqcw
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now i have semantic saturation of "call of doody"
this is not a bad thing
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http://youtu.be/KbWgUO-Rqcw
Amusing compilation, but what a facepalm.
Listen idiots (XBOX people), I want my GAMES console for one thing and one thing only. To put games in and play.
Buy game. Insert. Play. That's what I want.
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Yup, which makes you not in the target market of those products. Turns out the world doesn't gravitate around you.
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Yup, which makes you not in the target market of those products. Turns out the world doesn't gravitate around you.
Well from what I've seen, the World is less than impressed.
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I tend to agree with Lorric on this one.
For me, literally the sole decision factor with a console is what its game library looks like. I don't give a damn about any other miscellaneous features they want to tack on.
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Well from what I've seen, the World is less than impressed.
Yet they're still gonna sells millions of boxes.
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Well from what I've seen, the World is less than impressed.
Yet they're still gonna sells millions of boxes.
Sure they are. But how will they do in relation to the competition?
This launch was a flop. Get onto the net and see for yourself what people are saying.
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I think I agree with Lorric, too. They may not be in the target market of those products, but a hell of a lot of them were in previous generations. It's perfectly reasonable to be annoyed when products you enjoyed are going out of production and being replaced by something that pretty much ignores why you were interested in the first place.
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Get onto the net and see for yourself what people are saying.
What, because you're not able to form an opinion yourself ? Trusting random haters on the internet sounds helluva unhealthy.
Note that I am definitely not saying the xbawks one doesn't suck. I am pretty convinced it does. What I'm saying is that the hardcore gamer market never was M$'s target market.
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Get onto the net and see for yourself what people are saying.
What, because you're not able to form an opinion yourself ? Trusting random haters on the internet sounds helluva unhealthy.
Note that I am definitely not saying the xbawks one doesn't suck. I am pretty convinced it does. What I'm saying is that the hardcore gamer market never was M$'s target market.
Now you're not making sense. First you trash my opinion, then bring in millions of boxes to say others' opinions matter more, then when I do the same, now you say I'm wrong for not having an opinion?
I remember the excitement for previous consoles. It doesn't matter who the target market is. The target market would be making positive noises if they'd successfully connected with the target market.
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Now you're not making sense. First you trash my opinion, then bring in millions of boxes to say others' opinions matter more, then when I do the same
Wat.
I said that whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter because it will be a commercial success anyway. I didn't say the millions of people who are gonna buy it aren't awfully wrong regardless.
The target market would be making positive noises if they'd successfully connected with the target market.
Haters are always louder than lovers by a few orders of magnitude. That is all the more true on the internet.
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Now you're not making sense. First you trash my opinion, then bring in millions of boxes to say others' opinions matter more, then when I do the same
Wat.
I said that whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter because it will be a commercial success anyway. I didn't say the millions of people who are gonna buy it aren't awfully wrong regardless.
The target market would be making positive noises if they'd successfully connected with the target market.
Haters are always louder than lovers by a few orders of magnitude. That is all the more true on the internet.
Well right now it's too early to say if it will be a success, but I predict if the other companies don't put on the same restrictions, they will dominate.
Haters do make more noise, but when you really hit gold, they are drowned out. The negativity is overwhelming from what I've seen. Previous consoles have been greeted with great excitement.
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Matth is right though. Microsoft is targeting American suburban dadbros. Basically mid-30s homeowners that enjoy ESPN, fantasy leagues, and playing Call of Duty and Madden. There are definitely a lot of that demographic in America and they have plenty of disposable income.
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Trusting random haters on the internet sounds helluva unhealthy.
Insert irony commentary here.
The critical and public panning that has resulted is not a random haters phenomenon.
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This is a strange machine. I mean, I already have a device that I can do social media and TV on, it's called a $150 laptop hooked up to Hulu and Youtube. Well, then there's my smartphone which also can do all that. And my desktop PC, which does all that and way more. I don't imagine that any of the target demographics of the XB1 don't have any of those devices, making the XB1 kind of redundant for what they're marketing it as.
But we'll see. Really, what will make or break it is the games.
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Consoles have always been eyeballing being the all encompassing media hardware box in the TV room, even back in the original xbox and Playstation days.
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Anyone else remember WebTV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSN_TV)?
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... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.
To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.
I think you're underestimating a few things. One is the insane amount of memory bandwidth the PS4 has. Two, having the GPU and CPU sitting on the same bus, reading the same memory has a rather big advantage in that you can save a lot of otherwise necessary copy operations. Three, Consoles in general do not have abstraction layers like the Windows Display Driver Model, or DirectX, meaning that it's very much possible to program these machines very close to the metal. While the specs do not seem to be that impressive when compared to the kind of i7/GTX TITAN monster rigs it is possible to build in PC land, there's a lot more potential for programmers to really exploit.
Given that we're currently in a phase where graphics programming has hit a point of diminishing returns (Higher levels of fidelity do not offer the same kind of jump in quality as in earlier generations), and given that the industry can't really afford another budget increase like the one we saw going from Xbox/PS2 to 360/PS3, the fact that these systems are not going to compete against the aforementioned monster rigs for raw performance is less relevant than you seem to think.
Both the SportBox One and the PS4 have enough juice to do 1080p at 30 FPS, and doing 1080p at 60 is just a matter of optimization.
I understand HSA\HUMA, I've been keeping an eye on it for a while now. I understand coding directly for hardware too.
I also recognize mid-range parts when I see them, unlike some people apparently. The PS3 and 360 actually had, for their generation, higher-end things then this.
Oh, and when coding for bare metal, it doesn't work like PC. They do not actually target 1080p 60fps. If there were able to double the FPS, they would use that extra power they have available for other things, not framerate. They also tend to favor 720 becasue it's on a TV far away, and again, they want that power for other things, be it graphics, physics, whatever.
"It can" and "They will" are two completely different things. Technically the PS3 is capable of 1080p 3d 60fps. How many games do you see that do that?
The PS4 seems like it has a real technical advantage in the way the PS3 didn't, maybe even over current and near future PCs. Interested to see how the status quo mixes up.
... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.
To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.
The reason the PS4 may outperform PCs is the huge amount of unified memory and memory bandwidth. PC GPUs don't really have this amount of VRAM to work with. In the long run PCs will obviously pull ahead again, but it should be an interesting next couple years. Console developers always have the advantage of being able to work directly with a fixed hardware set.
It won't outperform anything over the $1200 mark, even with HSA behind it. You guys really need to actually read some about the parts going into these, not just assume HSA is the end-all-be-all. It's good, and very likely the future, but it isn't all powerful.
You all seem to forget that we already have a good chunk of this technology. Anyone with an APU already knows just about everything the new consoles will bring. The GPU half NEEDS that much bandwidth, and it isn't even that massive to begin with, being only a little bit (15%) more than a 7850's actual bandwidth. Hint again, the 7850 is a mid-range card... A single 7970 puls out 264GB/s to the PS4's 176, just by having a 384-bit bus instead of a 256-bit one.
Seriously, know where the hardware stands...
Also, ya, we do have GPUs with that much VRAM... dedicated to the card no less, not shared with the CPU. :rolleyes:
Oh, and you better pray they don't go using all 7GB the devs get for the GPU. 1080 doesn't need more then 2GB, even with higher res textures, so they at least should be putting that extra RAM into making properly larger levels to reduce loading screens.
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(http://i.minus.com/iBzvb2JSpQNRM.gif)
Hitler is mad too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eRJH6A-DFg4)
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i love people who want ultramegahighendgraphics on all their hardware and then ***** about the state of the aaa gaming industry
like, do they not realise that the escalation in costs for visual design is a pretty significant factor in the industry being dominated by safe, samey titles calculated for mass-market appeal
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... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.
To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.
I think you're underestimating a few things. One is the insane amount of memory bandwidth the PS4 has. Two, having the GPU and CPU sitting on the same bus, reading the same memory has a rather big advantage in that you can save a lot of otherwise necessary copy operations. Three, Consoles in general do not have abstraction layers like the Windows Display Driver Model, or DirectX, meaning that it's very much possible to program these machines very close to the metal. While the specs do not seem to be that impressive when compared to the kind of i7/GTX TITAN monster rigs it is possible to build in PC land, there's a lot more potential for programmers to really exploit.
Given that we're currently in a phase where graphics programming has hit a point of diminishing returns (Higher levels of fidelity do not offer the same kind of jump in quality as in earlier generations), and given that the industry can't really afford another budget increase like the one we saw going from Xbox/PS2 to 360/PS3, the fact that these systems are not going to compete against the aforementioned monster rigs for raw performance is less relevant than you seem to think.
Both the SportBox One and the PS4 have enough juice to do 1080p at 30 FPS, and doing 1080p at 60 is just a matter of optimization.
I understand HSA\HUMA, I've been keeping an eye on it for a while now. I understand coding directly for hardware too.
I also recognize mid-range parts when I see them, unlike some people apparently. The PS3 and 360 actually had, for their generation, higher-end things then this.
Oh, and when coding for bare metal, it doesn't work like PC. They do not actually target 1080p 60fps. If there were able to double the FPS, they would use that extra power they have available for other things, not framerate. They also tend to favor 720 becasue it's on a TV far away, and again, they want that power for other things, be it graphics, physics, whatever.
"It can" and "They will" are two completely different things. Technically the PS3 is capable of 1080p 3d 60fps. How many games do you see that do that?
The PS4 seems like it has a real technical advantage in the way the PS3 didn't, maybe even over current and near future PCs. Interested to see how the status quo mixes up.
... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.
To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.
The reason the PS4 may outperform PCs is the huge amount of unified memory and memory bandwidth. PC GPUs don't really have this amount of VRAM to work with. In the long run PCs will obviously pull ahead again, but it should be an interesting next couple years. Console developers always have the advantage of being able to work directly with a fixed hardware set.
It won't outperform anything over the $1200 mark, even with HSA behind it. You guys really need to actually read some about the parts going into these, not just assume HSA is the end-all-be-all. It's good, and very likely the future, but it isn't all powerful.
You all seem to forget that we already have a good chunk of this technology. Anyone with an APU already knows just about everything the new consoles will bring. The GPU half NEEDS that much bandwidth, and it isn't even that massive to begin with, being only a little bit (15%) more than a 7850's actual bandwidth. Hint again, the 7850 is a mid-range card... A single 7970 puls out 264GB/s to the PS4's 176, just by having a 384-bit bus instead of a 256-bit one.
Seriously, know where the hardware stands...
Also, ya, we do have GPUs with that much VRAM... dedicated to the card no less, not shared with the CPU. :rolleyes:
Oh, and you better pray they don't go using all 7GB the devs get for the GPU. 1080 doesn't need more then 2GB, even with higher res textures, so they at least should be putting that extra RAM into making properly larger levels to reduce loading screens.
Take it up with the tech columnists I read, I guess?
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Of all the developers I know who code for consoles, not a single one laments the fact that the memory model of the PS4 is shared between the CPU and GPU. Everyone absolutely adores the fact that the PS4 has a unified memory model. I don't know why Kyad is touting that as a bad thing.
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I don't know why '30 FPS' is being touted as a console trait either when probably the most popularly recognizable console games on Earth are 60 FPS titles.
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oh my I had a thought:
What if this is actually a planned attempt to put PC gaming back on the map, by destroying our console choices?
It almost makes sense....
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I'm pretty anti-console to start with but reading about what this thing requires is scary. Requires that Kinetic to be enabled for use and uses it to send data to mickysoft. They say it can even measure your heat rate. The ability to temporarily disable the camera is supposed to happen but they won't say anything about the mic. How long before someone hacks these things and starts recording people in their homes? I sure as heck wouldn't trust a camera and/or mic disabled via software setting as a barrier from hackers being able to see you and the inside of your home. I wouldn't put one of these in my house if you gave it to me.
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I should actually start a thread about day-to-day electronics that are super insecure. Wireless control of car throttle and steering is trivial in some models!
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Amen to that General Battuta. There are many devices of different sorts used in different places in our daily infrastructure that are accessible via internet. Many of these devices do not have any passwords or use default passwords. It would be child's play to cause mayhem by messing with devices that control water, sewage, electricity and many, many other things. It is kind of a miracle nobody has yet done it, at least to my knowledge. Or could it be that these incidents are not newsworthy beyond local news?
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Or they happen but people simply don't realise what was the cause.
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Pretty sure it has been done. Remember reading something about a dam or water reservoir being hacked at one point. Still that is not as personal as looking into your home and monitoring your private life. Someone having a database on everything from the time your alarm clock goes off, to the time you leave for and return from work, to when you go to bed. They are saying this info is only going to be used to better the product and wont be tied to specific people. but if they can record it so can the bad guys. Heck that kind of database could be a criminals guide to breaking into your home. They get access to this kind of info they know when your usually not home and might even be able to see the codes for your alarm system or determine them from the tones on the keypad. Even worse they may know when you aren't home and your wife or kids are there alone. Then there is always big brother.......
Remember we are talking mickysoft here so it's going to be a major target for hackers and mickysoft doesn't have a good track record when it comes to security.
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I also recognize mid-range parts when I see them, unlike some people apparently. The PS3 and 360 actually had, for their generation, higher-end things then this.
Are you sure about that? Cos the PS3's RSX was only a mid-range chip that, while based on the same architecture as nvidia's flagship GPU at the time, was cut down in terms of memory and ROPs. For the 360's Xenos chip, much the same applies; while it was somewhat comparable to a Radeon X1800, ATI was making faster chips at the time.
Oh, and when coding for bare metal, it doesn't work like PC. They do not actually target 1080p 60fps. If there were able to double the FPS, they would use that extra power they have available for other things, not framerate. They also tend to favor 720 becasue it's on a TV far away, and again, they want that power for other things, be it graphics, physics, whatever.
I think that's more your prejudices talking than actual fact. While it is true that 1080 @ 30FPS seems to be the target for many launch titles, there is no hint of them scaling up from 720p so far.
"It can" and "They will" are two completely different things. Technically the PS3 is capable of 1080p 3d 60fps. How many games do you see that do that?
And that's relevant to this new hardware how, exactly?
It won't outperform anything over the $1200 mark, even with HSA behind it. You guys really need to actually read some about the parts going into these, not just assume HSA is the end-all-be-all. It's good, and very likely the future, but it isn't all powerful.
A console that retails for 300 to 500 USD can't compete with a PC twice the price? I had no idea!
(Sarcasm aside, you're missing the point. These things are not meant to compete with ultra-high-end PCs, just like the PS3 and 360 were not meant to. They're built around the idea of "good enough" performance, performance sufficient to run games at native HD resolutions and steady framerates)
You all seem to forget that we already have a good chunk of this technology. Anyone with an APU already knows just about everything the new consoles will bring. The GPU half NEEDS that much bandwidth, and it isn't even that massive to begin with, being only a little bit (15%) more than a 7850's actual bandwidth. Hint again, the 7850 is a mid-range card... A single 7970 puls out 264GB/s to the PS4's 176, just by having a 384-bit bus instead of a 256-bit one.
See above. At home, I have a PC based on an AMD FX6300, a Radeon 7850 (with 1GB of DDR5) and 8GB of DDR3. It's good enough to run things like Crysis 2 or Bioshock Infinite at native 1080p at fluent framerates. The same will likely be true of these new consoles.
Also, ya, we do have GPUs with that much VRAM... dedicated to the card no less, not shared with the CPU. :rolleyes:
Oh, and you better pray they don't go using all 7GB the devs get for the GPU. 1080 doesn't need more then 2GB, even with higher res textures, so they at least should be putting that extra RAM into making properly larger levels to reduce loading screens.
There's a presentation out there by Guerrilla games about the making of the Killzone demo for the PS4 that goes into the technical details of their engine architecture. They're using 3GB of memory for purely rendering-related purposes, more than half of it for textures (and over 800MB just for render targets!). The rest of the engine uses only 2 or so GB above that.
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mickysoft doesn't have a good track record when it comes to security.
As compared to what? Did you forget that PlayStation Network had major security breaches several times that forced Sony to bring it down for extended periods of time? AFAIK Xbox Live was never breached.
As a matter of fact, there have been several studies examining companies security track record from past 5 years or so and Microsoft was on top or near the top every time. MS doesn't have so bad track record in security as one would believe. You also have to take into account that MS develops far, far wider scale of applications than most companies in the world. You would have to analyze everything subjectively. Of course MS has more security issues if you put them all together and then compare to other companies like Mozilla, who only develops a few applications and now mobile OS.
Sounds like you're a MS hater, as evidenced by your word of choice "mickysoft". Doesn't put a lot of weight behind your misconceptions.
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Not only has Xbox Live been hacked but they did it to "high profile" MS employee accounts: http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/high-profile-microsoft-employees-victims-xbox-live-hacks-1C8959492
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Hacked using social engineering exploits, which are rather hard to defend against using technical measures. Compare this to the PSN breach, and tell me which company has the better technical security.
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You know, I had a quite interesting discussion with E, Oddgrim and a few others on IRC last night, which makes me think that they are trying to unify everything around the Television set. With so many extra features inside consoles like the Xbox One, you'd think they are trying to phase out the PC or something. When I watched the Xbox One Conference video, I keep seeing it as more of an entertainment suite rather than a gaming console. :blah:
The only thing I can think of that a PC can do that a modern gaming console can't is run productivity software such as any software that has the Adobe or Autodesk logo on it.
http://youtu.be/KbWgUO-Rqcw
I was wondering, if you drank a cup of beer for every cut, then as much beer as you can whenever the dog shows up...
On a side note, the automatic captions are hilarious.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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There's a lot of things that a game console could do that would not enhance its utility as a game console. Using it to phase out stuff like a DVD/Bluray player, or set top box, or music player, that's fine. That all falls under the heading of entertainment, which is where a game console is traditionally placed. Adding functionality to allow it to work as a "work" device (Well, when I say "functionality" I mean software, really) is not a good idea, given that the ideal use case of these devices is to be hooked up to a big tv in a living room. I am not sure how large the market segment is that would want to do work in that environment, but I am willing to bet that it's not large enough to make such an investment worthwhile.
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Bah, the Xbox One sure looks unappealing. I have both the first Xbox and Xbox 360, was kinda looking forward to play the few exclusives that the console does have but just by principle alone I don't think I will. I don't really watch TV and the few series and movies I do watch, I stream via my computers or have on DVD.
Microsoft, Nineteen Eighty Four wasn't a manual. :P Then again you're not the only one using it as such.
I might go for the PS4 instead. Just depends on if their marketing holds up, no first day purchases for me either way.
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I don't know why '30 FPS' is being touted as a console trait either when probably the most popularly recognizable console games on Earth are 60 FPS titles.
Because the vast majority of recent and semi recent console games has been limited to 30fps? Because over the years of this console generation they've been constantly upping the graphical fidelity while the console hardware has remained the same and thus they had to resort to cutting the fps to 30 and limiting the fov to something sickness inducing like 45 degrees?
GTA4, Mass effect, Assassin's creed, Gears of War, Halo, all of these run at 30 fps. AFAIK CoD runs at 60 FPS, but they accomplish this through putting horseblinders on the player's FoV.
So yes, its definitely a console trait of this generation.
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I don't know why '30 FPS' is being touted as a console trait either when probably the most popularly recognizable console games on Earth are 60 FPS titles.
Because the vast majority of recent and semi recent console games has been limited to 30fps? Because over the years of this console generation they've been constantly upping the graphical fidelity while the console hardware has remained the same and thus they had to resort to cutting the fps to 30 and limiting the fov to something sickness inducing like 45 degrees?
GTA4, Mass effect, Assassin's creed, Gears of War, Halo, all of these run at 30 fps. AFAIK CoD runs at 60 FPS, but they accomplish this through putting horseblinders on the player's FoV.
So yes, its definitely a console trait of this generation.
Furthermore, this causes serious bugs in PC versions due to developer oversights. One good example being Mass Effect 3 (particularly multiplayer) where many mechanics, such as AI competency and shield regen is tied to framerate. At 30fps they work as they should, anything between 30 and 60 they're wonky at best. At 60 they again behave at some level of normalcy but beyond 60 they get wonky again. And in case of multiplayer, it's the host's fps that dictates level of wonkiness.
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Holy sh*t, the kinect reads heartbeats through skin pigmentation.
I wonder if future horror games (or even games in general) will take that into account...
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I am not sure how large the market segment is that would want to do work in that environment, but I am willing to bet that it's not large enough to make such an investment worthwhile.
Let me think about this.
Couch.
Hardwood chair.
Couch.
Hardwood chair.
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So you'd like to do spreadsheets while sitting two or three meters from your monitor?
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I am not sure how large the market segment is that would want to do work in that environment, but I am willing to bet that it's not large enough to make such an investment worthwhile.
Let me think about this.
Couch.
Hardwood chair.
Couch.
Hardwood chair.
Invest in a proper computer chair.
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So you'd like to do spreadsheets while sitting two or three meters from your monitor?
It's a nice big monitor, with the option to project it on the wall instead if I want.
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So I've been thinking a bit about the XBoxen, and I'm starting to see some logic here.
I believe that MS is acknowledging that console-exclusive games are starting to go away. It only makes sense from a developer point-of-view: more consoles running your game means more money.
So MS have said, "If you're only going to buy one console this generation, make it an XBox. We'll have almost all the games that the PS4 will, but we also have 'features'. And hey, as long as you have a new XBox, might as well buy the games for it (since we'll get the royalties instead of Sony)."
As for the used games, installing to HD, checking in once a day thing, MS is trying to be Steam. It remains to be seen if they can figure out why Steam is popular while Games for Windows Live and Origin are widely despised.
The no-backwards-compatibility thing does seem like a boneheaded move though.
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The no-backwards-compatibility thing does seem like a boneheaded move though.
This should be a priority when you have an unreliable machine. I suppose they know people will have to buy more machines if they want to keep playing.
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Unfortunately, backwards compatibility is not an option in this case. The system architectures are just too dissimilar, and the gap in processing power not large enough, to make it possible on a software basis. It probably could.have been done using an approach similar to the one Sony used in the PS2 and early PS3s, where they just added chips from the older model to the new one, but that's going to drive the hardware cost upwards, and increase system complexity.
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Sony's planning to use cloud computing to run old games on PS4 though, MS could have invested on same. All indicates they didn't however.
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Sony's planning to use cloud computing to run old games on PS4 though, MS could have invested on same. All indicates they didn't however.
I would like to point out that similar services have proven enormously successful in the past. [/not really]
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(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-zBmWNnQ/0/950x10000/i-zBmWNnQ-950x10000.jpg)
Yep.
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i agree that it's a dumb decision to force the kinect on everyone who doesn't want it, but for the privacy concerns.... really? dude. black tape. done.
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Yeah, it's functionally no different to the webcams you find in every laptop frame these days.
But I suppose that that's no reason to stop some good FUD.
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i am unfamiliar with that acronym.
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FUD = "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt", and old (REALLY old) acronym going back to the days of IBM, referring to their marketing strategy of spreading FUD in order to discourage people from buying hardware from other vendors.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
EDIT:
In other news, Microsoft has apparently thought up a "game resell strategy". Unfortunately, preliminary reports about it do not make much sense (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-05-24-this-is-how-xbox-one-game-trade-ins-will-work-apparently).
If MS offers a way to deactivate a license in return for some form of credit (I wish Steam would offer such a service, that would be great), that sounds like a good idea to me. But the way this is communicated at the moment is all wrong and uncoordinated, which does not help.
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yeah that would be nice. i've got a couple of steam games that turned out to be real piles of ****.
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I've often wished Steam had that feature. There are a few games in my library that I neither want nor have ever really played. Some feature that pro-rate's a refund based on play time - if you've never played, you get 75% back, which diminishes to 0% by the time you have 3 hours in or something like that.
Unlikely to ever happen, but we can dream.
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I've often wished Steam had that feature. There are a few games in my library that I neither want nor have ever really played. Some feature that pro-rate's a refund based on play time - if you've never played, you get 75% back, which diminishes to 0% by the time you have 3 hours in or something like that.
Unlikely to ever happen, but we can dream.
The problem with that is with who foots the bill. I sincerely doubt Valve could get any of the big producers / developers to agree to some form of buy-back policy.
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Ah, but here's a strategy that might work. Assume a 70/30 split between store and publisher. Allow users to trade in a game license for 20% of current price. Assuming this is the same price as it was bought at, the store still makes 10% absolute profit, and given that it's traded in for store credit, not actual money, you can be pretty sure that the rest of the money will go to the store eventually.
EDIT: If you combine this with Steam-style regular deep discounts, you keep customers happy, even the segment who want to play the games, but who can't afford them at full price.
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B-b-but that would encourage people to rush through games quickly so they could offload them before the price drops! :p
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The Onion's going in on the XBOX One now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUE-cTsaK6g&list=UUfAOh2t5DpxVrgS9NQKjC7A&index=1
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The only funny part of that was the snipe they took at The Weather Channel. :no:
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The only funny part of that was the snipe they took at The Weather Channel. :no:
I've got to admit I didn't find it funny, but I wonder if it's sort of they've (Microsoft) done all this stuff that no one wants them to do so the joke is the X-Box is telling us what to do, what to play, what to watch, but Microsoft already did that anyway deciding all this stuff for us when we don't want it, they're telling us what to do.
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The Onion's going in on the XBOX One now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUE-cTsaK6g&list=UUfAOh2t5DpxVrgS9NQKjC7A&index=1
I like how they reused footage from the conference and added their own voice actors on top of it.
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Holy sh*t, the kinect reads heartbeats through skin pigmentation.
This is reminding me of the scare over kinect vs. black people :eek2: :nervous:
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You know what would be really fun on the Xbox One with its built in Kinect and voice recognition? A Snatcher remake.
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Im more kida of a Playstation guy, because in childhood first console i ever played was Playstation, and without PC and freespace my childhood would be whole lot a different (not a good thing). But i will watch this so called console wars on the sidesteps. :cool:
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Holy sh*t, the kinect reads heartbeats through skin pigmentation.
This is reminding me of the scare over kinect vs. black people :eek2: :nervous:
I wonder if it'll detect life from gingers...
/badjoke
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(http://www.lifeinaggro.com/images/comics/2013/lia20130524.png)
This is gold. Made my night. :lol:
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The discussion is now over.
(http://i.imgur.com/zQygLfW.jpg)
Thank you for playing, do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not bash it any more, it has reached the peak.
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Unfortunately, there are still places to go after that, one of which involves the blinding obvious addition of vulgarity.
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I'm pretty sure they'll be able to surprise us (in the bad way) at E3.
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I wonder how the Xbox -359 exclusives showcase will be.
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Well, E3's in two weeks, and Nintendo's not having a press conference this year. Perfect make-or-break scenario.
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The new Kinect looks better than expected. Pair it with the Oculus Rift and it will be glorious.
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[13:50] <mura> the rumor mill is working hard, rumor has it, the xbone is having yield issues cuz of eSRAM in the chip, imminent performance cuts
[14:01] <Doko`> whats eSRAM?
[14:01] <dsockwell> enhanced synchronous RAM
[14:01] <dsockwell> it's called cache on processors
[14:02] <Zacam> It's ram that is basically shared between the CPU portion of the SOC and the GPU/APU unit, so that texture management doesn't have to flip the materials or textures between two states, but can allow it to be operated on by each discrete unit as necessary.
[14:03] <dsockwell> maybe it is embedded
[14:03] <Zacam> No, it's enhanced due to the dual-access state it can perform.
[14:04] <Zacam> Embedded is what it is in terms of being in the soc, but not all memory in a soc in enhanced to being available to multiple discreet units without needing to be shifted.
Thoughts?
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It's a rumour off of NeoGAF. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
That being said, the xbone SoC is a much more complex thing than the PS4 SoC (Because of the aforementioned eSRAM), and so it is rather likely that the production yields are not as high. Whether or not this has the implications the rumour mill speaks of remains to be seen.
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PS4 confirmed to play used games normally, costs 100 dollar less than the xbone and does not have always online drm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA
http://www.destructoid.com//ul/255967-image.jpg
(But both companies think that the exchange rate is 1$:1€, assholes)
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The exchange rates are completely ****ed (even after taking into account that the american price does not include VAT). Still, 399 EUR sounds like a pretty excellent idea to me, and is certainly within the range of what I would consider an acceptable price for this thing.
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The exchange rates are completely ****ed (even after taking into account that the american price does not include VAT). Still, 399 EUR sounds like a pretty excellent idea to me, and is certainly within the range of what I would consider an acceptable price for this thing.
Agreed.
Though right now I'm still not convinced I should get either of these consoles (since im a happy pc gamer). But right now PS4 seems more appealing than the xbone
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So, from Julian Rignall twitter:
"I just played an Xbox One game using an Xbox One controller that crashed... to a Windows 7, Hewlet Packard-branded desktop. Magic!"
"I even saw the back of the PC when the guy opened up the display to press the reset button."
Also: This (http://www.benchmark.pl/uploads/backend_img/a/fotki_newsy/201306/PM/microsoft-xbox-one-konsola-e3-komputer-wpadka-2(1).jpg) and this (http://www.benchmark.pl/uploads/backend_img/a/fotki_newsy/201306/PM/microsoft-xbox-one-konsola-e3-komputer-wpadka-3(1).jpg).
I wonder how much further can this affect MS reputation now. It appears people only got to play on some kind of devkit.
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So, from Julian Rignall twitter:
"I just played an Xbox One game using an Xbox One controller that crashed... to a Windows 7, Hewlet Packard-branded desktop. Magic!"
"I even saw the back of the PC when the guy opened up the display to press the reset button."
Also: This (http://www.benchmark.pl/uploads/backend_img/a/fotki_newsy/201306/PM/microsoft-xbox-one-konsola-e3-komputer-wpadka-2(1).jpg) and this (http://www.benchmark.pl/uploads/backend_img/a/fotki_newsy/201306/PM/microsoft-xbox-one-konsola-e3-komputer-wpadka-3(1).jpg).
I wonder how much further can this affect MS reputation now. It appears people only got to play on some kind of devkit.
I've lurked in some of the discussion among tech websites when I heard about it. On one hand, one could argue that they are simply dev kits/emulating that need to be as optimal and crash-proof (hm, irony perhaps) as possible for such a huge convention as E3, on the other, the technology used (Intel's highest end i7's, Nvidia 600/700 series graphics) is not very similar to the hardware that the Xbox One is supposedly going to use, namely AMD APUs. It's still x86 of course but it's a little silly that they would choose Nvidia tech over AMD, being MS' partner for the hardware of the machine.
Aesthetically, I do find it weird how the PCs appear to have all the looks of gaming PCs instead of inconspicuous black boxes.
In the end I think this is creating false hope and false expectations for how good the games will look like on the Xbox One as it'll be one heck of a task for the developers to actually try to optimize the new console to display it all. Then again with the track record we've seen of Microsoft lately including what I consider to be contempt and arrogance towards their customers, it seems like they really want to convince people that their console will be superior to the competition. At this point I really hope only very few people fall for it, as it doesn't speak well for the future.
I'm half expecting even worse or sillier news to come out in the lead up to the release, though. It all sure seems to lead to some disaster for Microsoft and the whole console, retail and the general computer market. Which I don't think will be beneficial for anyone.
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That is so ****ing Microsoft.
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So, from Julian Rignall twitter:
"I just played an Xbox One game using an Xbox One controller that crashed... to a Windows 7, Hewlet Packard-branded desktop. Magic!"
"I even saw the back of the PC when the guy opened up the display to press the reset button."
Also: This (http://www.benchmark.pl/uploads/backend_img/a/fotki_newsy/201306/PM/microsoft-xbox-one-konsola-e3-komputer-wpadka-2(1).jpg) and this (http://www.benchmark.pl/uploads/backend_img/a/fotki_newsy/201306/PM/microsoft-xbox-one-konsola-e3-komputer-wpadka-3(1).jpg).
I wonder how much further can this affect MS reputation now. It appears people only got to play on some kind of devkit.
LOL they could have at least used Windows 8, that way they'd promote two products at once! xD
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This reminds me of the Crysis vs Halo DirectX comparisons. Good to know Microsoft has not changed that much without uncle Bill. :yes:
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There's a company doing previews of games on unreleased hardware by using dev kits and the like, and there's doing the same using high-end PCs. Even if all the assets used are the same, how can that give a fair impression of the finished product?
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Looks like all the negative PR beat a bit of sense into MS. http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/19/tech/gaming-gadgets/xbox-drm/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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Wow. I'm actually impressed at just how large a step forward Microsoft managed to make by listening to feedback. I don't know about you guys, but those two points were two of the biggest points souring my perceptions of the XBOne.
That still leaves the rape jokes at the press conference and the price, but hey, baby steps.
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And the 'indies need publishers'
And the always on microphone
And the bundled in Kinect (no exceptions, infidel)
I wouldn't get your hopes up, quite yet.
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And the price is still 100USD up from the PS4.
Steps in the right direction, MS, but I think it's too late. Your PR has already been heavily stained with this fiasco.
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Right, at least I am glad my country is able to get it around the same time now that they decided to get rid of the 24h check and region lock (at least the machine part). Still, they made a bad first impression here and I think most people here already went for PS4 because of it.
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Even if MS hadn't made all those missteps, the simple fact that the PS4 is better equipped to do what I want it to do at a much lower price is a killer argument.
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Wow. I'm actually impressed at just how large a step forward Microsoft managed to make by listening to feedback. I don't know about you guys, but those two points were two of the biggest points souring my perceptions of the XBOne.
That still leaves the rape jokes at the press conference and the price, but hey, baby steps.
I don't think it was the public feedpack but, rather Sony forced their hands on the DRM issue because on the long run it could have affected on sales negative way
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I think they got the pre-order numbers and **** a brick. Otherwise, they would have stayed the course.
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Looks like all the negative PR beat a bit of sense into MS. http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/19/tech/gaming-gadgets/xbox-drm/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Fool me once...
This is the whole 'three steps forward, two steps back' tactic. With a closed platform such as this, MS will still have the ability to add these restrictions back in down the line.
The only big way I see it as to how MS can fix things is to remove Kinect as a mandatory device and stop trying to push it onto everyone, though again, they can force these restrictions down the line with smooth PR, such as "Get Halo 6 and GoW 4 with the Kinect 2.0 for 150 dollar" bundel or ridiculous bonuses to those who identify with the Kinect sensors in multiplayer games. Plenty of ways to screw over the users just with such a device around, which isn't beyond them from the contempt and original goal they already set out to do.
Guess I'm just rather cynical towards them right now, though.
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MS will still have the ability to add these restrictions back in down the line.
If you bothered to read their statements on the issue, you'd actually know they've committed to not do this. So unless they want the Original ****storm, now with Extra Cheese, that is extremely unlikely.
Few things upset the public like lying to them. Add in the already rather troublesome nature of what they'd be adding and you can see why this is a highly unlikely outcome.
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MS will still have the ability to add these restrictions back in down the line.
If you bothered to read their statements on the issue, you'd actually know they've committed to not do this. So unless they want the Original ****storm, now with Extra Cheese, that is extremely unlikely.
Few things upset the public like lying to them. Add in the already rather troublesome nature of what they'd be adding and you can see why this is a highly unlikely outcome.
I've read their statements, Microsoft still has the ability to change this down the line, obviously as the owners of all the patents, hardware and software involved. The way I see them forcing this will likely be incrementally, bit by bit, as part of particular titles and software/dashboard updates that will supposedly make use of such a 'feature'. Microsoft like any big corporation that wishes to compete in markets don't give up even after such a fan outcry, it just means they'll take it more slowly. Again, I'm rather cynical about how this works, having seen them come out with the desire to force DRM restrictions and the huge potential of active and passive spying through the mandatory Kinect (which is only partially addressed), defending it with tooth and nail up until two days ago, I just don't see their change of heart to be sincere.
As with everything though, we'll see down the line what happens.
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I wonder what they are trying to pull off. Were they trying to only sell it to some few select customers in developed countries and just ignore the rest of the world as they are 'pirates' anyway? Or perhaps creating some kind of new intelligence gathering network?
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Solution to Kinect: Duct/Electrical tape
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I wonder what they are trying to pull off. Were they trying to only sell it to some few select customers in developed countries and just ignore the rest of the world as they are 'pirates' anyway? Or perhaps creating some kind of new intelligence gathering network?
Neither, really.
You see, it's a question of corporate culture at play here. Sony is a manufacturer of entertainment electronics, Nintendo is a toymaker, and Microsoft is a software developer. This informs how they present themselves and their products to the world.
Now, the thing is, the people working at MS aren't stupid. But they're also working in a culture that is very engineer-centric, very much focussed on providing other engineers with tools to make products. So when the time came to define the policies for the new Xbox, they were looking at it from that point of view, they reduced the number of possible system configurations by making Kinect a part of the system (Much like Nintendo made motion controls an integral part of the Wii) and they introduced a DRM mechanic that every developer could use and rely on (thus cutting down on engineering complexity for the people that make the games).
Now, as a consequence of that, they had two problems. One, a higher base price due to having to ship more hardware in the box, which they couldn't do anything about without compromising either the hardware or the financial health of the gaming division. Two, a need to build up a dedicated infrastructure to service the new Xbox. There, they had a choice of either providing a worldwide service from the get-go, or to provide a more regionalized but as a consequence more reliable service to a select number of markets. Given past experiences with rolling out always-online DRM implementations across a wide array of markets, they chose to concentrate on select regions.
These are all decisions that, from an engineering standpoint, make total sense. It's only when viewed through the consumer's eyes that the whole thing breaks apart at the seams.
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You see, it's a question of corporate culture at play here. Sony is a manufacturer of entertainment electronics, Nintendo is a toymaker, and Microsoft is a software developer. This informs how they present themselves and their products to the world.
That's actually a really good point. It's easy to forget that these three companies - so often lumped together because they are the only real competiors in this market - are fundamentally different in a lot of ways.
Throws a new perspective on a lot of different things thinking of them like that.
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Solution to Kinect: Duct/Electrical tape
I recall reading that the new Kinect would brick your system for as long as the camera couldn't detect you.
You might want to verify that, though. Because I can't remember where I heard it.
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So when the time came to define the policies for the new Xbox, they were looking at it from that point of view, they reduced the number of possible system configurations by making Kinect a part of the system
They didn't seem to have thought about that with the 360. With them selling version with and without harddrives and all that ****...
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I think part of the problem is that, in the current cut-throat environment, companies can over compensate. Various knobs and whistles with regards to rumble-packs, motion sensors and Kinect are all, at their heart, an attempt to find something unique to sell the product on. When something fails, it's not a case of understanding that 'uniqueness' isn't what makes a console good or bad, it's more a case of 'we need a better gimmick'.
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Yes, but what has happened here is something really amazing. What happened here and what is driving Microsoftian heads spinning furiously is that while MS attempted to get that "unique" gimmick from Kinect, which is arguably their best mass product technology right now, PS4 got to be "unique" in the sense that it *doesn't* have expensive gimmicks like the Kinect, and chose to beat the Xbox in the price point.
So perhaps MS thought PS4 was going for its own expensive gimmick too. But instead, they made this move and now MS is in trouble.
They can still say that Kinect will be "optional", and drive the price point down again, but they have commited so much in terms of architecture and logistics that I'm afraid it's too late for them to do this.
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Yup, I think that on this occasion Sony read the market best, that people would rather have a cheap base-product and then buy peripherals to taste than have them foisted upon them, because the moment you make a control method part of the system, you are tying down the system. This sort of happened with the Wii, where games which were, in no way, suited to the Wii controller were being written for use with it, which caused a nightmare.
I'll never forget the one time I tried COD or something on the Wii, the control combinations were so whacked out that I couldn't even get past the tutorial mission.
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Yeah, one of the received wisdoms of the console market is that optional accessories don't really work, so you have to ship everything in the base SKU.
The main problem that I see in MS' strategy with Kinect is that it's tailored to work in a very specific environment (in this case, the main living room of a decently sized house), whereas previous consoles could work wherever you had enough room to place the console, a seat, and a TV. I'm pretty sure that MS' market analysts have concluded that the market segment that has room for an Xbone is also the market segment with the most readily available cash to spend, and so we get a product made for that segment of the population.
It's once more a decision that is completely logical from an engineer's POV.
EDIT:
It seems to me that MS has fallen into the programmer's pitfall of "Let's rewrite this thing". It's somewhat similar to what they were convinced of with Windows 8, where they thought that they had found a new formula, a new paradigm for the future, and tried to get a headstart on the implementation before the other players realized that MS was right. MS has built a machine for ubiquitous broadband net access and mature motion capture control schemes, and a market made up of people who have fond memories of playing stuff on their Wiis; unfortunately for them, that segment is currently rather small.
They tried to innovate in a very conservative business during a recession, they made the wrong choices, and now they're paying for them.
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You are right The_E, and I'm probably being too pessimistic about MS's strategy.
From the engineering POV I totally get it. But from the consumer POV, IDK if they are really convinced they need this "kinect" thing. The Wii U also tried to shovel a lot of peripherals down the people's necks and the market didn't like it. Now the Kinect is central to their vision of what media in the living room will be in the next decade, and I understand their decision to make it obligatory....
But I really wonder if FS4's approach isn't going to win bigtime in the market. I think it will, but time will tell.
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It also has to be taken into account that these consoles will be released into a slightly different market to the previous ones, a market where people are a lot less inclined to make large outlays just to have the latest and greatest. Those people will still exist, of course, but I think this time round the market may err towards the cheaper, safer option than the more expensive one with new technologies in it.
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Perhaps Microsoft is reinventing the wheel too early. The technology they're showing off is very interesting, but it seems the established gamer base is still more comfortable with older technology, having used it for years.
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Perhaps Microsoft is reinventing the wheel too early. The technology they're showing off is very interesting, but it seems the established gamer base is still more comfortable with older technology, having used it for years.
I think you're completely misunderstanding why people are angry at Microsoft.
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I don't think he is. The point was, M$ was kinda betting that those new tech would have enough appeal for people to accept the rest. Turns out it doesn't.
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The discomfort with the Xbone has very little to do with comfort with older technology.
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Only able to speak for myself, my main discomfort will always stay with that darn Kinect being a mandatory part of the machine. I really don't like what it does and how it does it as well as how MS claims it's the future while I see a better solution in products like Oculus Rift, in comparison at the least.
I'll be on the fence on the whole 'next gen' choices and offerings, even if PS4 looks rather nice right about now, I've never been one to go Day One on any hardware device, so that should help in judging where everything goes before and after release.
I'm glad that this does seem to have a lot of potential to do good things for PC gaming as well as, at least financially to a certain extent, AMD itself, the x86 architecture, existing consumer electronics chipsets and APUs, it'll be nice to watch what we'll be able to expect from this in the short and long term. It does certainly make me consider to build a small (mini-itx) PC with a similar configuration as the PS4 will offer just to see if a 'steambox' is a valid option in my household.
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I'm glad that this does seem to have a lot of potential to do good things for PC gaming as well as, at least financially to a certain extent, AMD itself, the x86 architecture, existing consumer electronics chipsets and APUs, it'll be nice to watch what we'll be able to expect from this in the short and long term. It does certainly make me consider to build a small (mini-itx) PC with a similar configuration as the PS4 will offer just to see if a 'steambox' is a valid option in my household.
Steambox bundled with Occulus Rift + a couple of games that fully support it.... Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo could pretty much pack in and go home at that point. ;)
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Disappointed that Microsoft didn't have the balls to stick to their plan.
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wat. you WANTED to be tracked and price gouged? :wtf:
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wat. you WANTED to be tracked and price gouged? :wtf:
Personally, I wanted to see it totally flop.
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At least they should have learned from Sony's mistakes in the past, on how focusing on just the devs point of view, while completely ignoring the customer's concern will not end well for them.
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wat. you WANTED to be tracked and price gouged? :wtf:
Dude we're tracked every time we turn on the computer and the kinect could be turned off.
As for the cash, I wouldn't get it on launch anyway so whether it's 500 dollars to start it or not doesn't mean much to me. I would probably buy it a year later as I've still got 12-15 360 games to play through. So if I picked it up when it was 400, or had say some games bundled with it, why not?
The thing about Microsoft's console is that they're actually trying to innovate and add new features whereas all Sony did was to let Microsoft go first, tell people what they wanted to hear, and generally not do anything very interesting. I don't really give people props for being reactionary, which is why Microsoft backing down on their strategy is at best disappointing.
That and nothing they were going to do is really going to negatively impact how I play and experience games. I don't buy used games. I rarely trade in old games. Etcetera.
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To me, consoles should try to focus on one task most of all, namely gaming, with everything else being a pleasant extra feature, such as the ability to watch movies or listen music or browse the internet when online. That way, all of the processing power and memory can be dedicated to performing it's main task as good as possible without any variables in the way. A second very important part, to me, is that the device should be as simple as possible to plug-and-play with nothing delaying you, just turn it on, pop a disk in, and play.
As such, I don't see a need for much innovation, especially as it clearly comes as a much higher price tag than if they just keep it simple.
If anything gets in the way of the console's ability to simply play games, such as DRM, restrictions, unnecessary features that clog up the system, full game installations from disk to HDD, big updates that take a long time to complete or even crashing during, or even gets bricked, well then it's just a inferior, small form factor PC, lacking the ability to quickly diagnose and repair/swap faulty hardware.
As for pricing, the Xbox One will of course drop in price eventually but as long as the Kinect 2.0 is still mandatory and bundled, it'll be hard for MS to compete in pricing without losing a lot of money in the process, which will inevitably return in the form of (personalized) advertisement (thanks to Kinect 2.0), perhaps higher game prices, more DLC at higher prices, etc.
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At the moment my biggest gripe with upcoming console generation is price of games. MS has already confirmed their prices will be 59.99 USD. Sony has yet to comment as far as I know, but I'd really, really, really like them to say prices will be dropped down to 49.99 USD. Not only is that much more affordable, it'd also force MS to reduce prices. Incidentally that's same price as what PC games typically sell for.
Sweet spot is 39.99 USD but we can dream, can't we...
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I don't think I am that concern with Kinect watching my movements, assuming it also turned off if you unplug the console. I am not a console gamer myself (otherwise I wouldn't be here), but my cousins are. From what they said, they would be very annoyed if their consoles have any online requirement. They were very satisfied with their Xbox 360, and the selection of the games, prices, and no intrusive DRM-like things are the main reasons they picked it over the PS3. Probably Microsoft were too focused on developing other things that they forgot that the main reason for many people getting a console is just to play game, not so much doing anything in the internet.
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The thing about Microsoft's console is that they're actually trying to innovate and add new features whereas all Sony did was to let Microsoft go first, tell people what they wanted to hear, and generally not do anything very interesting. I don't really give people props for being reactionary, which is why Microsoft backing down on their strategy is at best disappointing.
I think their take on Gaikai and how that kind of server-side technology may well create new possibilities of awesomeness (and a lot of new SimCity-like fubars for sure) is *very* interesting at least. I hear you on the whole "revolutionary" thing, but sometimes you should just say "no" to new stuff. Sometimes, this new stuff is just not that great (wink wink 3D tvs wink wink). I'm very Appleish on this kind of design decisions: to me to say "no" to key stuff is much more important than a bunch of "yes"s that will just clob up until you just want to get rid of the whole shenanigan. And the Xbone is starting to feel that way. (And yeah, the Wii U is already passed beyond that point).
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Thing is, with the Xbox . . okay, there are a bunch of features people don't like. Those features don't bother me personally. But thing is Xbox had two ways to go:
1. Chicken-ass out, and go back on their plans
2. Stick to their guns, but add new incentives that outweigh the potential backlash
People like say, the Jimquisition, who I no longer watch, but he anyway he complained about "death of ownership" and **** like that with the new Xbox DRM. But thing is, this lack of used game (which is opt in anyway, not all the time) is already prevalent with Valve's Steam. But when I brought this up on another forum everyone had a double standard saying "oh but Steam does so and so, so it's okay to have DRM and to not own games or whatnot". So obviously people ARE willing to put up with this DRM scheme, in fact I blame gamers for Microsoft even trying it in the first place. If Steam had flopped we wouldn't have even had this **** to begin with.
M$ just had to incentivize it enough that people wouldn't care just like Valve's done.
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Oh yeah, absolutely. I blame MS's utterly appalling marketing ability on this one. And by "marketing" I don't mean merely "talk talk talk", but that's also included, I mean marketing in its full sense: the bringing of a technology or a new idea to the market. That means good implementation and actually convincing people your plan is not only fair but awesome. They should have zeroed on people's fears about DRM "lock in" from the get-go with an "opt-in" plan or something and they were utterly stupid for not doing so, when there was a bunch of evidence that people would *not* put up with a draconian new system that didn't appeal to people's natural conservatism on these matters.
And they mostly just had to say something like "You'll be able to do everything you were able to do with the 360, DON'T WORRY!, but if you opt-in to this amazing new system of a market, this is how the new rules are". And people would eat that ****, because in their minds would always be "ok, fine, and if they want to really milk me I'll just opt-out and do what I've been doing". Give people breathing room and they'll always put money or your faces. What is WRONG with you marketing people?
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is already prevalent with Valve's Steam
No. It's not.
Microsoft is selling you physical game media with all the necessary information on it required to run the game. This is something that is easily, quickly, and cheaply transferred. Steam's entire methodology is different.
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But is that not what happens when I buy a Steam game on, say, Gamestop? What makes it different from what MS wanted to do?
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But is that not what happens when I buy a Steam game on, say, Gamestop? What makes it different from what MS wanted to do?
Ah, here's the other trap: you're attempting to compare the PC market to the console market. PC games don't have, and have never had, the huge resale movement that console games have.
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is already prevalent with Valve's Steam
No. It's not.
Microsoft is selling you physical game media with all the necessary information on it required to run the game. This is something that is easily, quickly, and cheaply transferred. Steam's entire methodology is different.
So when I bought both the Half Life Episodes and Half Life 2 and these two games were entirely tied to steam and couldn't be traded or resold you're telling me it's different? Bull****.
Your rationalization is just the sort of nonsense I see everywhere.
It's the same ****ing thing.
And Valve started it. Now people are *****ing about Microsoft while at the same time praising Valve and Steam and fail to see the irony of it.
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So when I bought both the Half Life Episodes and Half Life 2 and these two games were entirely tied to steam and couldn't be traded or resold you're telling me it's different?
PC.
Console.
PC.
Console.
One of these things is not like the other~
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That's not really an argument now is it.
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[modhat]Akalabeth, calm down. If you're getting angry at the discussion, you're taking it too seriously, especially if it's about video games.
At the same time, NGTM, you don't need to be an ass about it, no matter how much I may agree with your point.[/modhat]
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That's not really an argument now is it.
The thing is, it really is an argument, because the computer game resale/trade thing doesn't exist and has never existed. You can't restrict something that doesn't exist. If you're complaining you lost options, it's your fault for never utilizing them, otherwise people might have actually fought for your options.
The console resale/trade market does exist and has existed. Attempts to shut it down are going after something real, something that actually, provably, exists and keeps a number of companies in business in addition to providing lots of people cheap games.
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The complaints on the PC side of things are also heavily mitigated by the fact that Steam has such voluminous and frequent sales, which enables the consumer to purchase even fairly-new games without breaking the bank. That doesn't happen as a rule on the console side of things, with the possible exception of some sort of "Greatest Hits" re-release a few years down the road. The used games market provides a range of pricing options that don't exist for most console titles, and it also enables people to get their hands on hits from previous generations that have long been out-of-print, an issue that obviously doesn't exist on Steam.
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is already prevalent with Valve's Steam
No. It's not.
Microsoft is selling you physical game media with all the necessary information on it required to run the game. This is something that is easily, quickly, and cheaply transferred. Steam's entire methodology is different.
So when I bought both the Half Life Episodes and Half Life 2 and these two games were entirely tied to steam and couldn't be traded or resold you're telling me it's different? Bull****.
Your rationalization is just the sort of nonsense I see everywhere.
It's the same ****ing thing.
And Valve started it. Now people are *****ing about Microsoft while at the same time praising Valve and Steam and fail to see the irony of it.
#1. No one likes that they can't resell Steam games, even if they wouldn't do so. (If you can find someone that thinks otherwise, I'd recommend protecting the gene-pool with extreme prejudice)
#2. The PC market (as NGTM-1R said), especially for the past eight years or so, has not had nearly the rate of resale that consoles have. It's just not something that really happened in large numbers and it's been getting smaller and smaller ever since digital distribution became popular and accepted.
#3. The PC market (including but not limited to Steam) offers a Hell of a lot more in the way of basic functionality than this next or any console generation.
#4. Have you been to GoG lately? Who the Hell needs used PC games when you get deals like that?
#5. Consoles had two major things on PC games: Optimization and it-just-works. When you put a disc or cartridge into a console, you simply played it. You didn't have to worry about (note: ps3/360 kind of did some of this) installs, patches, customizing, bug-fixing, or any of that stuff. You put the disc in, and you played the game, and it ran well.
Then Microsoft decided to remove the 'it-just-works' part, tack on the parts of PC / digital distribution that people do not like while not taking the parts that people do like, and attach a spy camera and microphone to it for ****s and giggles. Oh, then they actively insulted millions of people when they 'didn't get it'.
Valve does a lot of things that bug me, but they are no where near the level of stupidity and anti-consumerism that Microsoft attempted to (and still may) reach.
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Like I said (much) earlier, MS wanted to be Steam.
But, they failed to realize what makes Steam popular, the same as Origin did.
Some of the most important and best things about Steam are: Frequency and quality of sales, making the same games significantly cheaper than buying them from a store; convenience of having so many games under one roof, and mostly guaranteed to work; and Steam DRM is much, much more forgiving than most of the things that other companies try.
I sincerely doubt that MS was going to make the XBone store as friendly as Steam, I sincerely doubt that the prices offered online would be any better than just buying a (new) disk even years after a game is released, the process for buying games did not seem convenient at all, and the DRM plan at first was downright idiotic. (yes speculation, but not groundless speculation)
Also, Steam never says "our way is the only way to play games on your PC". Very few games absolutely require Steam, and there's frequently multiple other ways to buy and play games. If MS had done what Luis Dias suggested up the page a bit and given everybody the option of taking each game online-only or traditional disk-based, they would have fared much, much, MUCH better in the public eye.
Blarg, probably ninja'd, I'll post this anyway. EDIT: yep. Great post, BloodEagle
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That's not really an argument now is it.
The thing is, it really is an argument, because the computer game resale/trade thing doesn't exist and has never existed. You can't restrict something that doesn't exist. If you're complaining you lost options, it's your fault for never utilizing them, otherwise people might have actually fought for your options.
Really?
That's odd because I remember going to computer swaps back in the 1980s.
I still have a dozen or more computer games I bought second hand online from Ebay and other sources. Heavy Gear 1+2, Renegade Legion Jacob's Star, Oni, Master of Orion 2, Homeworld 1+2, Dawn of War, Grand Theft Auto Vice City, Sands of Time, etcetear. The last two by the way were bought from EB Games, in the same way that people buy used 360 and whatever from EB Games.
People didn't fight for their options because most gamers don't have principles. If they did have principles they would not apply two different standards to two different companies but they do that ALL the time.
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I know GameStop hasn't carried used PC games in many years, if they ever did. And yes, you can grab used PC games off the usual online third-party sources, but you certainly can't via the normal retail channels for such.
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Well EB Games certainly did, which invalidates NGTM's assertion that the used computer games "never existed".
The lack of used games being carried at Gamestop probably coincides with the launch of Steam or shortly thereafter.
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That's odd because I remember going to computer swaps back in the 1980s.
If you had anecdotes and evidence, then you'd have evidence. The last time I was able to buy a used PC game in a store was in 2002, when I picked up a copy of MW2 Mercs I could almost not run. The resale market's not there. The assertion that Steam killed it is at best spurious. You can't go around just making claims like that; you've got to back them up.
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It has probably something to do with this thing called "piracy"...
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That's odd because I remember going to computer swaps back in the 1980s.
If you had anecdotes and evidence, then you'd have evidence. The last time I was able to buy a used PC game in a store was in 2002, when I picked up a copy of MW2 Mercs I could almost not run. The resale market's not there. The assertion that Steam killed it is at best spurious. You can't go around just making claims like that; you've got to back them up.
Ah, so the "re-sale/trade thing" never existed and yet you bought a used game in 2002?
Odd. You do know the definition of never do you not?
What Steam did or did not kill off is irrelevant to me.
What's important is that Xbox One is doing the same thing that Steam is doing in function. The circumstances of when these measures are implemented is completely irrelevant.
And there is one difference from Xbox One to Steam, that is, the used game block was OPTIONAL. That is not the case with Steam.
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It has probably something to do with this thing called "piracy"...
Probably. Because it was always so easy to copy PC games, used games probably lost a lot of value (to resellers), so that made the market much smaller. Whereas with consoles, up until now, you needed the original disk to play a game (or it was at least a lot harder to pirate them).
Because you couldn't play without the disk, resellers were more comfortable paying half-way decently for used games.
(again, speculation, but it makes sense)
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If you had anecdotes and evidence, then you'd have evidence. The last time I was able to buy a used PC game in a store was in 2002, when I picked up a copy of MW2 Mercs I could almost not run. The resale market's not there. The assertion that Steam killed it is at best spurious. You can't go around just making claims like that; you've got to back them up.
The resale market was definitely there at least on eBay and Amazon. I remember buying Homeworld, Hitman, Quake II, Quake III Arena, Rainbow Six, SWAT 4, Red Alert, Starcraft, Mafia, and a bunch of flight sims, all used on those two services. The resale market for PC games definitely exists even today for older games and I don't think you can argue otherwise. Steam really did kill the resale market for newer games that rely on Steamworks. Before, at least CD keys were transferable. Now, they're forever locked to people's accounts.
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I think, if anything, GoG killed the used PC games market. Why pay tens of dollars plus shipping for a game on ebay when you could get it for $5 on GoG and have it forever, with no worries that the disks might break.
The last used game I bought was Wing Commander 4. It's still sitting in the shipping box now that I bought it on GoG.
Incendentally, would anybody like a free copy of Wing Commander 4 in retail box with everything inside?
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I remember buying WC4 and 3 on the flea market a few years back, in their respective fully equipped boxes. I was a very very happy man.
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As far as Steam killing used game sales: All you need to do is create a separate Steam account for each game, with a separate e-mail address created for each account. Sell the game = after receiving the $$, change the password to the Steam acct to something temporary and send it to the new user, who can then change the associated e-mail.
The reason I say separate e-mail is that Steam probably only allows one associated acct for each e-mail address. Even if they allowed multiple, that would be stupid as they now have proof of your selling the acct.
Yes, it works. My current Steam account started this way, with a purchase of BF2142. I'm not interested in re-selling my Steam games, so I just added onto the account as time went on.
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yes, and steam will come down on you like a ton of bricks the second they figure out what you're up to
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Hmm. Well I got BF2142 in 2007? ... you can't make a business out of it, but I think you could pawn off the occasional game that you didn't really have any interest in ever re-playing.
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Hmm. Well I got BF2142 in 2007? ... you can't make a business out of it, but I think you could pawn off the occasional game that you didn't really have any interest in ever re-playing.
Last time I checked, my steam account was worth somewhere north of 2000 Euros. I am not going to use some weird scheme that would theoretically allow me to trade on games if it means risking my main account.
Besides, recent rumours say that Steam may be working on implementing a "borrowing" feature that would allow you to at least temporarily transfer ownership of a game to someone else.
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I think, if anything, GoG killed the used PC games market. Why pay tens of dollars plus shipping for a game on ebay when you could get it for $5 on GoG and have it forever, with no worries that the disks might break.
The last used game I bought was Wing Commander 4. It's still sitting in the shipping box now that I bought it on GoG.
Incendentally, would anybody like a free copy of Wing Commander 4 in retail box with everything inside?
*raises hand*
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Wow, that's gonna be worth quite a bit these days. My father still has the original disks and the manual for WC4, as well as WC3 with the manual and Victory Streak (strategy guide and feelies).
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Wow, that's gonna be worth quite a bit these days.
You don't say....
jk, if FlamingMamba can swing the shipping, it's his.
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One quick question: Is it true that I won't be able to play Xbox360 games on the Xbox one?
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One quick question: Is it true that I won't be able to play Xbox360 games on the Xbox one?
Yes.
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:shaking:
That sucks...well, then there is no need to buy it.
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More XBone hilarity:
Don Mattrick, head of the XBox division, is leaving for .... (drumroll) Zynga, to take over the role of CEO there. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/125553-Xbox-President-Don-Mattrick-Leaving-For-Zynga-UPDATED)
I wonder why that happened.
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Oh, the comments on that page are so unkind to him. :P
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I am thoroughly confused now (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/07/internet-petitioners-want-xbox-ones-digital-sharing-features-back/).
The petition on Change.org for Microsoft to "Give us back the Xbox One we were promised at E3" notes that the system as originally envisioned would let users "buy games digitally, then trade, share, or sell those digital licenses." Unfortunately, as the petition puts it, "uninformed [consumers]… railed against it… because Sony took advantage of consumers' uncertainty."
"It can't be all or nothing, there must be a compromise," the petition goes on, suggesting that the creator wants the option for these new digital sharing options to sit alongside more traditional disc-based sale and resale.
The petition was started 20 days ago—just after Microsoft's initial reversal—but it seems to have gained steam more recently, acquiring hundreds of supporters this morning as the wider Internet has slowly become aware of its existence. As of this writing, the petition has passed what was an initial goal of over 1,500 signatures, but it now shows that 2,500 total are "needed." It's unclear what, if anything, will happen when that seemingly arbitrary goal is reached.
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Why are you confused? This is the usual MS drama.
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the petition has passed what was an initial goal of over 1,500 signatures, but it now shows that 2,500 total are "needed." It's unclear what, if anything, will happen when that seemingly arbitrary goal is reached.
(http://emotibot.net/pix/4644.jpg)
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Indeed.
The petition has already been conducted. On a global basis, when the World told Microsoft where they can stick all the control-freak changes they made.
This will have no impact. And if it does, then the World taught Microsoft the error of their ways once, and the World will do it again if necessary.
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Wasn't MS revising their strategy a good thing a few weeks back? It's still a good thing now, of course, and I do realize that this petition is fundamentally worthless (A change.org petition for MS to do something? Like that's gonna do anything) due to low interest and massive trolling, but I still am confused as to why anyone would believe that mandatory online connections are a good thing.
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You'd be amazed at what people believe.
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You'd be amazed at what people believe.
You're really setting the table for a easy slam dunk there. :P
Anyhow, personally, I'm still very hesitant about trusting MS' honesty and that they won't return to the restrictive DRM nonsense down the line. It's rather silly that there are a few people out there that are so blindly in love with 'innovative features' and 'the future!' that they would want MS to go back to it right after changing once.
Unless they're just clever trolls trying to make MS make -another- 180 in order to further discredit MS to more consumers and perhaps even investors.
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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects
MS defending "poorer specs". I can't say how much truth there is in there, but well worth reading in any case.