[StarSlayer]

Consoles have always been eyeballing being the all encompassing media hardware box in the TV room, even back in the original xbox and Playstation days.

[BloodEagle]

Anyone else remember WebTV?

[KyadCK]

... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.

To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.

I think you're underestimating a few things. One is the insane amount of memory bandwidth the PS4 has. Two, having the GPU and CPU sitting on the same bus, reading the same memory has a rather big advantage in that you can save a lot of otherwise necessary copy operations. Three, Consoles in general do not have abstraction layers like the Windows Display Driver Model, or DirectX, meaning that it's very much possible to program these machines very close to the metal. While the specs do not seem to be that impressive when compared to the kind of i7/GTX TITAN monster rigs it is possible to build in PC land, there's a lot more potential for programmers to really exploit.

Given that we're currently in a phase where graphics programming has hit a point of diminishing returns (Higher levels of fidelity do not offer the same kind of jump in quality as in earlier generations), and given that the industry can't really afford another budget increase like the one we saw going from Xbox/PS2 to 360/PS3, the fact that these systems are not going to compete against the aforementioned monster rigs for raw performance is less relevant than you seem to think.

Both the SportBox One and the PS4 have enough juice to do 1080p at 30 FPS, and doing 1080p at 60 is just a matter of optimization.

I understand HSA\HUMA, I've been keeping an eye on it for a while now. I understand coding directly for hardware too.

I also recognize mid-range parts when I see them, unlike some people apparently. The PS3 and 360 actually had, for their generation, higher-end things then this.

Oh, and when coding for bare metal, it doesn't work like PC. They do not actually target 1080p 60fps. If there were able to double the FPS, they would use that extra power they have available for other things, not framerate. They also tend to favor 720 becasue it's on a TV far away, and again, they want that power for other things, be it graphics, physics, whatever.

"It can" and "They will" are two completely different things. Technically the PS3 is capable of 1080p 3d 60fps. How many games do you see that do that?

The PS4 seems like it has a real technical advantage in the way the PS3 didn't, maybe even over current and near future PCs. Interested to see how the status quo mixes up.

... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.

To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.

The reason the PS4 may outperform PCs is the huge amount of unified memory and memory bandwidth. PC GPUs don't really have this amount of VRAM to work with. In the long run PCs will obviously pull ahead again, but it should be an interesting next couple years. Console developers always have the advantage of being able to work directly with a fixed hardware set.

It won't outperform anything over the $1200 mark, even with HSA behind it. You guys really need to actually read some about the parts going into these, not just assume HSA is the end-all-be-all. It's good, and very likely the future, but it isn't all powerful.

You all seem to forget that we already have a good chunk of this technology. Anyone with an APU already knows just about everything the new consoles will bring. The GPU half NEEDS that much bandwidth, and it isn't even that massive to begin with, being only a little bit (15%) more than a 7850's actual bandwidth. Hint again, the 7850 is a mid-range card... A single 7970 puls out 264GB/s to the PS4's 176, just by having a 384-bit bus instead of a 256-bit one.

Seriously, know where the hardware stands...

Also, ya, we do have GPUs with that much VRAM... dedicated to the card no less, not shared with the CPU. 

Oh, and you better pray they don't go using all 7GB the devs get for the GPU. 1080 doesn't need more then 2GB, even with higher res textures, so they at least should be putting that extra RAM into making properly larger levels to reduce loading screens.

[An4ximandros]

Hitler is mad too.

[Phantom Hoover]

i love people who want ultramegahighendgraphics on all their hardware and then ***** about the state of the aaa gaming industry

like, do they not realise that the escalation in costs for visual design is a pretty significant factor in the industry being dominated by safe, samey titles calculated for mass-market appeal

[General Battuta]

... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.

To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.

I think you're underestimating a few things. One is the insane amount of memory bandwidth the PS4 has. Two, having the GPU and CPU sitting on the same bus, reading the same memory has a rather big advantage in that you can save a lot of otherwise necessary copy operations. Three, Consoles in general do not have abstraction layers like the Windows Display Driver Model, or DirectX, meaning that it's very much possible to program these machines very close to the metal. While the specs do not seem to be that impressive when compared to the kind of i7/GTX TITAN monster rigs it is possible to build in PC land, there's a lot more potential for programmers to really exploit.

Given that we're currently in a phase where graphics programming has hit a point of diminishing returns (Higher levels of fidelity do not offer the same kind of jump in quality as in earlier generations), and given that the industry can't really afford another budget increase like the one we saw going from Xbox/PS2 to 360/PS3, the fact that these systems are not going to compete against the aforementioned monster rigs for raw performance is less relevant than you seem to think.

Both the SportBox One and the PS4 have enough juice to do 1080p at 30 FPS, and doing 1080p at 60 is just a matter of optimization.

I understand HSA\HUMA, I've been keeping an eye on it for a while now. I understand coding directly for hardware too.

I also recognize mid-range parts when I see them, unlike some people apparently. The PS3 and 360 actually had, for their generation, higher-end things then this.

Oh, and when coding for bare metal, it doesn't work like PC. They do not actually target 1080p 60fps. If there were able to double the FPS, they would use that extra power they have available for other things, not framerate. They also tend to favor 720 becasue it's on a TV far away, and again, they want that power for other things, be it graphics, physics, whatever.

"It can" and "They will" are two completely different things. Technically the PS3 is capable of 1080p 3d 60fps. How many games do you see that do that?

The PS4 seems like it has a real technical advantage in the way the PS3 didn't, maybe even over current and near future PCs. Interested to see how the status quo mixes up.

... 8 Jaguar (AKA, 2 quad-core netbook-level CPUs) cores, plus 8GB and a 7850. It's not exactly blowing away PCs right now, not to mention all the next-gen stuff coming out in the next few weeks, let alone by the end of the year. In fact, it's middle of the pack, and almost exactly what I would tell someone with a medium ($550-650 plus OS) budget to buy, which is convenient, because it'll probably cost somewhere in that ballpark.

To be fair though, we actually expect 1080p/60fps or better with PCs, while consoles get away with 720 and/or 30 fps. It works out.

The reason the PS4 may outperform PCs is the huge amount of unified memory and memory bandwidth. PC GPUs don't really have this amount of VRAM to work with. In the long run PCs will obviously pull ahead again, but it should be an interesting next couple years. Console developers always have the advantage of being able to work directly with a fixed hardware set.

It won't outperform anything over the $1200 mark, even with HSA behind it. You guys really need to actually read some about the parts going into these, not just assume HSA is the end-all-be-all. It's good, and very likely the future, but it isn't all powerful.

You all seem to forget that we already have a good chunk of this technology. Anyone with an APU already knows just about everything the new consoles will bring. The GPU half NEEDS that much bandwidth, and it isn't even that massive to begin with, being only a little bit (15%) more than a 7850's actual bandwidth. Hint again, the 7850 is a mid-range card... A single 7970 puls out 264GB/s to the PS4's 176, just by having a 384-bit bus instead of a 256-bit one.

Seriously, know where the hardware stands...

Also, ya, we do have GPUs with that much VRAM... dedicated to the card no less, not shared with the CPU. 

Oh, and you better pray they don't go using all 7GB the devs get for the GPU. 1080 doesn't need more then 2GB, even with higher res textures, so they at least should be putting that extra RAM into making properly larger levels to reduce loading screens.

Take it up with the tech columnists I read, I guess?

[Swifty]

Of all the developers I know who code for consoles, not a single one laments the fact that the memory model of the PS4 is shared between the CPU and GPU. Everyone absolutely adores the fact that the PS4 has a unified memory model. I don't know why Kyad is touting that as a bad thing.

[General Battuta]

I don't know why '30 FPS' is being touted as a console trait either when probably the most popularly recognizable console games on Earth are 60 FPS titles.

[JGZinv]

oh my I had a thought:
What if this is actually a planned attempt to put PC gaming back on the map, by destroying our console choices?


It almost makes sense....

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I'm pretty anti-console to start with but reading about what this thing requires is scary.  Requires that Kinetic to be enabled for use and uses it to send data to mickysoft.  They say it can even measure your heat rate.  The ability to temporarily disable the camera is supposed to happen but they won't say anything about the mic.  How long before someone hacks these things and starts recording people in their homes?  I sure as heck wouldn't trust a camera and/or mic disabled via software setting as a barrier from hackers being able to see you and the inside of your home.  I wouldn't put one of these in my house if you gave it to me. 

[General Battuta]

I should actually start a thread about day-to-day electronics that are super insecure. Wireless control of car throttle and steering is trivial in some models!

[Fury]

Amen to that General Battuta. There are many devices of different sorts used in different places in our daily infrastructure that are accessible via internet. Many of these devices do not have any passwords or use default passwords. It would be child's play to cause mayhem by messing with devices that control water, sewage, electricity and many, many other things. It is kind of a miracle nobody has yet done it, at least to my knowledge. Or could it be that these incidents are not newsworthy beyond local news?

[karajorma]

Or they happen but people simply don't realise what was the cause.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Pretty sure it has been done.  Remember reading something about a dam or water reservoir being hacked at one point.  Still that is not as personal as looking into your home and monitoring your private life.  Someone having a database on everything from the time your alarm clock goes off, to the time you leave for and return from work, to when you go to bed.  They are saying this info is only going to be used to better the product and wont be tied to specific people. but if they can record it so can the bad guys.  Heck that kind of database could be a criminals guide to breaking into your home.  They get access to this kind of info they know when your usually not home and might even be able to see the codes for your alarm system or determine them from the tones on the keypad.   Even worse they may know when you aren't home and your wife or kids are there alone.  Then there is always big brother....... 

Remember we are talking mickysoft here so it's going to be a major target for hackers and mickysoft doesn't have a good track record when it comes to security. 

[The E]

I also recognize mid-range parts when I see them, unlike some people apparently. The PS3 and 360 actually had, for their generation, higher-end things then this.

Are you sure about that? Cos the PS3's RSX was only a mid-range chip that, while based on the same architecture as nvidia's flagship GPU at the time, was cut down in terms of memory and ROPs. For the 360's Xenos chip, much the same applies; while it was somewhat comparable to a Radeon X1800, ATI was making faster chips at the time.

Oh, and when coding for bare metal, it doesn't work like PC. They do not actually target 1080p 60fps. If there were able to double the FPS, they would use that extra power they have available for other things, not framerate. They also tend to favor 720 becasue it's on a TV far away, and again, they want that power for other things, be it graphics, physics, whatever.

I think that's more your prejudices talking than actual fact. While it is true that 1080 @ 30FPS seems to be the target for many launch titles, there is no hint of them scaling up from 720p so far.

"It can" and "They will" are two completely different things. Technically the PS3 is capable of 1080p 3d 60fps. How many games do you see that do that?

And that's relevant to this new hardware how, exactly?

It won't outperform anything over the $1200 mark, even with HSA behind it. You guys really need to actually read some about the parts going into these, not just assume HSA is the end-all-be-all. It's good, and very likely the future, but it isn't all powerful.

A console that retails for 300 to 500 USD can't compete with a PC twice the price? I had no idea!
(Sarcasm aside, you're missing the point. These things are not meant to compete with ultra-high-end PCs, just like the PS3 and 360 were not meant to. They're built around the idea of "good enough" performance, performance sufficient to run games at native HD resolutions and steady framerates)

You all seem to forget that we already have a good chunk of this technology. Anyone with an APU already knows just about everything the new consoles will bring. The GPU half NEEDS that much bandwidth, and it isn't even that massive to begin with, being only a little bit (15%) more than a 7850's actual bandwidth. Hint again, the 7850 is a mid-range card... A single 7970 puls out 264GB/s to the PS4's 176, just by having a 384-bit bus instead of a 256-bit one.

See above. At home, I have a PC based on an AMD FX6300, a Radeon 7850 (with 1GB of DDR5) and 8GB of DDR3. It's good enough to run things like Crysis 2 or Bioshock Infinite at native 1080p at fluent framerates. The same will likely be true of these new consoles.

Also, ya, we do have GPUs with that much VRAM... dedicated to the card no less, not shared with the CPU. 

Oh, and you better pray they don't go using all 7GB the devs get for the GPU. 1080 doesn't need more then 2GB, even with higher res textures, so they at least should be putting that extra RAM into making properly larger levels to reduce loading screens.

There's a presentation out there by Guerrilla games about the making of the Killzone demo for the PS4 that goes into the technical details of their engine architecture. They're using 3GB of memory for purely rendering-related purposes, more than half of it for textures (and over 800MB just for render targets!). The rest of the engine uses only 2 or so GB above that.

[Fury]

mickysoft doesn't have a good track record when it comes to security. 

As compared to what? Did you forget that PlayStation Network had major security breaches several times that forced Sony to bring it down for extended periods of time? AFAIK Xbox Live was never breached.

As a matter of fact, there have been several studies examining companies security track record from past 5 years or so and Microsoft was on top or near the top every time. MS doesn't have so bad track record in security as one would believe. You also have to take into account that MS develops far, far wider scale of applications than most companies in the world. You would have to analyze everything subjectively. Of course MS has more security issues if you put them all together and then compare to other companies like Mozilla, who only develops a few applications and now mobile OS.

Sounds like you're a MS hater, as evidenced by your word of choice "mickysoft". Doesn't put a lot of weight behind your misconceptions.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Not only has Xbox Live been hacked but they did it to "high profile" MS employee accounts:  http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/high-profile-microsoft-employees-victims-xbox-live-hacks-1C8959492

[The E]

Hacked using social engineering exploits, which are rather hard to defend against using technical measures. Compare this to the PSN breach, and tell me which company has the better technical security.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

You know, I had a quite interesting discussion with E, Oddgrim and a few others on IRC last night, which makes me think that they are trying to unify everything around the Television set. With so many extra features inside consoles like the Xbox One, you'd think they are trying to phase out the PC or something. When I watched the Xbox One Conference video, I keep seeing it as more of an entertainment suite rather than a gaming console.

The only thing I can think of that a PC can do that a modern gaming console can't is run productivity software such as any software that has the Adobe or Autodesk logo on it.

http://youtu.be/KbWgUO-Rqcw

I was wondering, if you drank a cup of beer for every cut, then as much beer as you can whenever the dog shows up...

On a side note, the automatic captions are hilarious.

[attachment deleted by ninja]

[The E]

There's a lot of things that a game console could do that would not enhance its utility as a game console. Using it to phase out stuff like a DVD/Bluray player, or set top box, or music player, that's fine. That all falls under the heading of entertainment, which is where a game console is traditionally placed. Adding functionality to allow it to work as a "work" device (Well, when I say "functionality" I mean software, really) is not a good idea, given that the ideal use case of these devices is to be hooked up to a big tv in a living room. I am not sure how large the market segment is that would want to do work in that environment, but I am willing to bet that it's not large enough to make such an investment worthwhile.