Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: FireSpawn on May 22, 2013, 03:46:14 pm
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Today in broad daylight on a street in woolwich, just around the corner from a primary school filled with children, a man was brutally hacked to death in an attack carried out by two men wielding what look to be machetes or meat cleavers.
Here is a link to the story on the BBC website, it has a video clip of a man making a "Political" statement, with blood soaked hands and weilding a large blade. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303)
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I think what I find most disturbing about this is the police response. Over 20 minutes to be able to respond to a terrorist attack because of cops not having guns to put and end to the cleaver wielding terrorists. Could you imagien if they had 20 minutes to be tossing pipe bombs around?
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Out of curiosity are British Police issued tasers or some form of ranged take down in lieu of firearms?
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"Cannot play media. Sorry, this media is not available in your territory" - boo
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Out of curiosity are British Police issued tasers or some form of ranged take down in lieu of firearms?
Yes, mace.
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Out of curiosity are British Police issued tasers or some form of ranged take down in lieu of firearms?
iirc only firearms trained officers can handle taser, regular police can only carry and use batons and CS spray
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Do they maintain regular training in martial arts for hand to hand and melee such as Jujutsu and Eskrima?
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I used to live in Woolwich. I know that area well.
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Do they maintain regular training in martial arts for hand to hand and melee such as Jujutsu and Eskrima?
To be fair, we're not talking about one guy with a switchblade, here.
Still, you'd think they could throw something at them. ;)
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i wish the media would learn the difference between a criminal and a terrorist.
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Hate to say it, but I agree with Nuke, whilst what he did was terrible, hacking a man to death and then making political statements does not a terrorist attack make. I lived 2 doors from a man who was hacked to death by a recently escaped lunatic, we need to get more information and be a bit more careful how we throw the word 'terrorist' around.
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Well, there is a difference between a murder and a terrorist attack. These guys did it for publicity, and for politics. At the very least it's a political murder, which is far closer to terrorism than the escaped lunatic scenario... or most reasons people commit murder, for that matter.
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But then it leads to questions about some school shootings in the US, where the shooter claimed to have semi-political reasons for performing the act (at least to their own minds, though, very often it's hard to find out much details, as US media tends to focus on what the shooter watched, played etc). It may be an act of pure terrorism, but I think calling it that off the bat without a lot more information is jumping the gun, as it were.
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People do throw terrorism around a lot these days, but remember that terrorism, like sin, doth lie in the intent. These guys fall into the Anders Brevig category of terrorists: if you're murdering someone - be it with a gun, a machete or a bomb - with the intention of triggering some kind of political or social change by provoking fear in the surviving population, then that's a terrorist action. It's also a pretty broad definition, and catches a lot of things that don't fall into the nebulous public definition of "Real terrorism" (like your aforementioned semi-political school shootings). That said, in this case, based on what we know so far, it does seem to apply - certainly it's a better fit than the Syrian government calling the rebels there terrorists or something like that.
However, I hope and expect that the UK will treat these men as what they are - criminals, to be tried and convicted by the justice system. The people to really watch are your UKIP/BNP/EDL type people. A brutal, public, political crime with a very black, very muslim, very photographed pair of assailants - this feels very much like the exact kind of thing that those kinds of people are always waiting to pounce on.
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looks like the EDL have already made an arse of themselves over this clashing with police last night (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-edl-demo-mosques-attacked-021243145.html?vp=1#sXdwQix)
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Thing is, this sort of behaviour should end up with the EDL being branded a Terrorist group, because it's every bit as motivated by political/religious divides as any other act of Terrorism.
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:wtf: I'm trying not to hate people for their beliefs. But when I hear about such things, it makes my tolerance level very low.
When I saw that ****** carrying knives and having blood on his filthy hands and talking about his motivation... words cannot express my anger (I don't live in the UK but I'm scared about Europe's cultural change)
And I also regret that EDL didn't rush into so called "No go muslim area". it would be much better than fighting the police :/
I stopped to believe in a "religion of peace" tale. I've read and seen too much.
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Col.Hornet: This is your first and final warning. If you act like a
religious terrorist cocksucking neonazi again (and do not try to justify yourself, that is exactly what you are doing), you will be banned.
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F***ing muslins.
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I think this is a really, really delicate situation to be honest, at the risk of being accused of being a 'bleeding heart liberal', we need to be careful to separate 'Religious Zealot' from 'Bloody Nutcase', spouting religion whilst acting like a complete madman is kind if like the ultimate definition of Poe's law, where does the Zealot end and the Madman begin?
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I think this is a really, really delicate situation to be honest, at the risk of being accused of being a 'bleeding heart liberal', we need to be careful to separate 'Religious Zealot' from 'Bloody Nutcase', spouting religion whilst acting like a complete madman is kind if like the ultimate definition of Poe's law, where does the Zealot end and the Madman begin?
To me, if he was a bloody nutcase or zealot he wouldnt have calmy stopped and made his speech, he would have hacked anyone near next. The guy knew what he was doing and he was in complete control of himself. He wasnt crazy.
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There are a great many kinds of crazy that could be involved; narcissism, psychopathic episodes etc. The human brain is one hell of a complicated thing and can break in all kinds of ways in the right conditions, or with the right conditioning.
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[BLANKED BECAUSE I WANT THIS THREAD TO DIE]
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To me, if he was a bloody nutcase or zealot he wouldnt have calmy stopped and made his speech, he would have hacked anyone near next. The guy knew what he was doing and he was in complete control of himself. He wasnt crazy.
If your rational decision path ends at "Grab a bunch of knives and stab a dude in the street", then it isn't rational. Did he know what he was doing? Probably. Was this a premeditated crime? Probably. Does that make this moron sane? No. No it ****ing doesn't.
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F***ing muslins.
And Sarafan, what have you got against cotton fabrics?
Edit : And I'd suggest you come up with a good reason to hate them, because people will want to know why Col. Hornet got told off and you didn't, I know this place well enough to know that.
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There are a great many kinds of crazy that could be involved; narcissism, psychopathic episodes etc. The human brain is one hell of a complicated thing and can break in all kinds of ways in the right conditions, or with the right conditioning.
Perhaps, but perceptually the fact he engaged in semi-rational discourse afterwards is going to sink the chances of an insanity defense going over at trial. More seriously regardless of whether he was crazy or not he stated intent to and acted to strike at the social order as a whole. That moves his crime into a more serious category than stabbing his wife. While all crime is dangerous because it damages the social contract, those that strike directly against it rather than incidentally are handled differently for good reason.
I'm still pretty concerned over the 20 minute response time. If the cops can't move in quicker, neither can the paramedics. 20 minutes is a long time to be lying on the ground trying to hold your intestines in after some guy sliced you open. If our malefactor here was really up on his game and wanted to make an unforgettable statement, the scenario I just described is an effective option.
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Where are people getting this 20 minutes thing from?
Also: the UK has their very own chapter of the klan. charming. :rolleyes:
(the EDL, obv.)
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There are a great many kinds of crazy that could be involved; narcissism, psychopathic episodes etc. The human brain is one hell of a complicated thing and can break in all kinds of ways in the right conditions, or with the right conditioning.
Perhaps, but perceptually the fact he engaged in semi-rational discourse afterwards is going to sink the chances of an insanity defense going over at trial. More seriously regardless of whether he was crazy or not he stated intent to and acted to strike at the social order as a whole. That moves his crime into a more serious category than stabbing his wife. While all crime is dangerous because it damages the social contract, those that strike directly against it rather than incidentally are handled differently for good reason.
Oh, I agree, he's insane in the same way that someone like Charles Manson is insane, or Anders Breivik. He's rational and self-aware enough to be treated as a criminal and receive the full weight of law and dangerous enough to require that he never see the outside of a prison again.
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Where are people getting this 20 minutes thing from?
The AP made that claim initially. They don't seem to be now, but it's still kind of scary that it could be taken seriously enough to turn up in the Associated Press.
When I first came to San Diego response time for where I lived on a "shots fired" was eleven minutes. The same study noted that if a gunshot wound is going to kill you, you'll probably be dead in seven minutes or less. Acceptable response time is usually considered five minutes for a suburban or urban area.
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:wtf: I'm trying not to hate people for their beliefs. But when I hear about such things, it makes my tolerance level very low.
When I saw that ****** carrying knives and having blood on his filthy hands and talking about his motivation... words cannot express my anger (I don't live in the UK but I'm scared about Europe's cultural change)
And I also regret that EDL didn't rush into so called "No go muslim area". it would be much better than fighting the police :/
I stopped to believe in a "religion of peace" tale. I've read and seen too much.
What exactly is wrong with this? I would certainly like his scenario, scum destroying scum. Everyone wins.
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No, everyone loses, because things like that never stay contained and never get smaller. We've already had one bout of riots spreading across the country, I'd rather not have another, far worse set.
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No, everyone loses, because things like that never stay contained and never get smaller. We've already had one bout of riots spreading across the country, I'd rather not have another, far worse set.
Yeah, I suppose. I don't know how it makes him a neo-nazi though.
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Because of insulting entire group of people, not only the criminal. I will agree with E. I won't try to justify my opinion. I will stay as it is. This is my last post in this topic.
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Because of insulting entire group of people, not only the criminal. I will agree with E. I won't try to justify my opinion. I will stay as it is. This is my last post in this topic.
Thank you for this show maturity and not causing any more trouble for yourself or us.
And my heart goes out to the man's son. Imagine the damage when he is finally told exactly what happened to his dad...It's almost enough to make you cry.
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Because of insulting entire group of people, not only the criminal. I will agree with E. I won't try to justify my opinion. I will stay as it is. This is my last post in this topic.
Thank you for this show maturity and not causing any more trouble for yourself or us.
And my heart goes out to the man's son. Imagine the damage when he is finally told exactly what happened to his dad...It's almost enough to make you cry.
Yes.
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looks like the EDL have already made an arse of themselves over this clashing with police last night (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-edl-demo-mosques-attacked-021243145.html?vp=1#sXdwQix)
Man, I used to live on Burrage Road. What is it with my former addresses and racist scumbags? I used to live on Well Hall Road too, about 100m from where Stephen Laurence was killed.
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F***ing muslins.
And Sarafan, what have you got against cotton fabrics?
Edit : And I'd suggest you come up with a good reason to hate them, because people will want to know why Col. Hornet got told off and you didn't, I know this place well enough to know that.
The guy is a muslim, he commits a barbaric crime for his religion, current news show lots of muslims commiting barbaric crimes worse than this for the same reason. My opinion of them is at a all time low. If any other group carried out similar behavior I would hate them equaly.
Not going to say the religion is evil but they've clearly taken the whole thing to an extreme.
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who's this 'they' you're talking about then
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The guy is a muslim, he commits a barbaric crime for his religion, current news show lots of muslims commiting barbaric crimes worse than this for the same reason. My opinion of them is at a all time low. If any other group carried out similar behavior I would hate them equaly.
Not going to say the religion is evil but they've clearly taken the whole thing to an extreme.
Oh my god.
So you're not saing Islam is evil, but it is actually evil?
Please take a moment to reflect on the biases you have taken as fact that came in from the various news reports you have consumed over the past few years. "Muslims" make up a quarter of the worlds population. You're judging them by the behaviour of a couple thousand individuals. If you can't see why that's a bad idea, why embracing such a mindset more or less disqualifies you from being part of this debate, then I suggest you reexamine your stance on this issue.
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There is a very good reason why you occasionally have Muslim leaders reiterating that these extremists do not share the view of the silent majority: because they really don't. If they did, there will be several countries in the world today that simply cannot exist.
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The guy is a muslim, he commits a barbaric crime for his religion, current news show lots of muslims commiting barbaric crimes worse than this for the same reason. My opinion of them is at a all time low. If any other group carried out similar behavior I would hate them equaly.
Not going to say the religion is evil but they've clearly taken the whole thing to an extreme.
Totally agree.
I feel the same way about Christianity. There are a couple Christians in the US that murder doctors performing abortions through bombing because of their religion, current news shows a lot of Christians commit hateful acts and say hateful things as bad or worse than this for the same reason. My opinion of them is at an all time low. If any other group carried out similar behaviour I would hate them equally.
Not going to say their religion is evil but they've clearly taken the whole thing to an extreme.
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There is a very good reason why you occasionally have Muslim leaders reiterating that these extremists do not share the view of the silent majority: because they really don't. If they did, there will be several countries in the world today that simply cannot exist.
Lip service. It's just like the extreme-right Christians in the US. Oh, sure, every now and then a leader that says something a little too frank gets outed because they can't have the appearance of being as extreme as they are, but it's patently obvious that the silent majority agree with them.
(Once upon a midnight dreary...)
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Oh my god.
So you're not saing Islam is evil, but it is actually evil?
Please take a moment to reflect on the biases you have taken as fact that came in from the various news reports you have consumed over the past few years. "Muslims" make up a quarter of the worlds population. You're judging them by the behaviour of a couple thousand individuals. If you can't see why that's a bad idea, why embracing such a mindset more or less disqualifies you from being part of this debate, then I suggest you reexamine your stance on this issue.
I'm not saying the religion is evil because there are countless examples of muslims living perfectly fine with the rest of world, what I'm saying is that to me it looks like the majority has taken their ideals to such an extreme that they feel perfectly justified in engaging in this behaviour.
There is a very good reason why you occasionally have Muslim leaders reiterating that these extremists do not share the view of the silent majority: because they really don't. If they did, there will be several countries in the world today that simply cannot exist.
Yeah, muslim countries today are a bastion of stability and order. It's just like MP-Ryan says, lip service.
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It's just like MP-Ryan says, lip service.
Your grasp of sarcasm is astounding.
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Whoops, can't delete, see below.
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I'm not saying the religion is evil because there are countless examples of muslims living perfectly fine with the rest of world, what I'm saying is that to me it looks like the majority has taken their ideals to such an extreme that they feel perfectly justified in engaging in this behaviour.
There are a lot of great high-profile examples... in no particular order:
-Mumbai Bombing
-9/11
-7/7
-Rocket launches on Israel
-Ft. Benning
-Woolwich
-Boston Marathon
Nevermind the current political situations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. These are all clear indicators that the majority of Muslims support violence, in some cases extreme violence, to promote their religious agenda.
(while I pondered weak and weary)
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You guys criticizing Sarafan are clearly falling into the trap of political correctness. There is a pile of evidence from the news that shows Islam has become far more extreme and violent than any other religion, and the majority of its members silently agree with this direction. How else to explain the nightly news, and the fact that Muslims are constantly featured in acts of terror?
(over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore)
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Oh FFS.
Thread closed. Bans handed out. For those acting sarcastic too, there's no point in sarcasm against those who don't understand it.
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I'll the comment MP-Ryan sent me cause I can see why he wouldn't want anyone believe the sarcastic stuff he posted in the last few posts was real. Since I only banned him until I could have a word with him about how his sarcasm had gone too far, I'll add it here.
I don't know if you'd like to add it to the thread or not, but here is basically what I was going to say to tie things up after Sarafan's next response:
For those wondering and who didn't get the reference immediately, the bracketed phrases are quotations from a famous poem - Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven."
Clearly I don't agree in the slightest with what Sarafan is posting, which is why I first parodied, then agreed with over-the-top examples of what he's saying. Alternatively, I could have used examples like "Some European's settling in Brazil following the Second World War were Nazis escaping justice; therefore, all Brazilians supported the Nazi's extermination of Jews." (Poe and Godwin in the same thread!).
Given the population of Muslims on the planet, and their diversity of beliefs, it is ludicrous to take the extreme ideology of a few and tar the majority with it, particularly as that [historically silent] majority is now starting to take the brave step of publicly denouncing and refuting the claims of said extremists.
The world has seen this type of violence in many forms over the centuries - often religion is a motivator, but scientific and philosophical beliefs aren't immune to use as justification either. Ultimately, what we should be concerned about are PEOPLE, not necessarily their beliefs. Rationality and irrationality exist across the religious, political, philosophical, and [yes, even] scientific spectrums. It is when irrational beliefs coincide with a propensity to use violence/extremism and the unmitigated belief that the person is right or just in their beliefs which in turn justifies any method that we should be concerned.
In short, assigning blame to a majority of a group for the actions of individuals motivated by a tiny extremist segment of that group is patently unjust and frankly unhelpful to addressing the problems. Meanwhile, large groups need to be cognizant of these extremist segments and actively work toward stamping them out - as, indeed, the Muslim community has. Canada has a recent case where an imam called police to report some worrisome extremists; it foiled a bomb plot and has led to arrest and prosecution.
Up to you.
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I'd let it stand, my unit's been in two national papers laying wreaths, I'm a soldier, I grew up in south east London but I'm afraid my guys were just doing it to be seen. The lad had no connection to us whatsoever, it's commutable that about seems it.