Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Lepanto on July 20, 2013, 06:14:48 pm
-
FS campaigns often have at least one "keep X distance away from patrolling fighters while scanning stuff/doing whatever"-style stealth mission. Do you like these missions as a nice change of pace from regular FS gameplay, or do you find them annoying? I personally dislike them, but I'd like to hear others' opinions on the subject.
EDIT: Poll added.
-
I very much dislike them. There is nothing fun about them.
-
They tend to be pretty bad, since most (MOST) are just about "Stay away from those ships over there." I'd like to see things more in the way of "You are in a Vasudan ship, follow your orders while on patrol and take snap pics and scans when you get an open window (say 5 secs to get into position and if you screw it, no retries), if you try to complete too many objs. you get found out. One could even make it so there is only a small set of objs. doable (Say 5 out of 13 ships scan-able), and it's a red alert mission in which part 2 revolves around giving the GTA Zod ship info (stealthily) while being part of a Zod raiding party. You play a sympathizer or something.
-
stealth missions provide a useful change in pace/stress type when done well, personally as a player that enjoys action and stealth equally I like them.
problem is because they are so different than the typical mission in a game like freespace they are difficult to set up so that they are interesting to a player who is used to the often highly aggressive nature of said typical mission.
My biggest gripe with stealth missions in general (not just in the FS/FSO engine) is that if you are spotted then typically you have to abort either forcibly by the game, by being hit by such overwhelming force that survival is minimal of you stay or by mission/game design which doesn't factor in the possibility that the player might be able to luck (or skill) their way through the failure point and still achieve the remainder of the objectives.
-
Well made, and with an interesting take, they can be fun. They're also a great way to relieve the inevitable monotony of constant blasting missions. Boil it right down, and FS really only has a very small number of traditional, core mission types - assault, defence, escort (debatable, could be a subset of defence), stealth and... maybe capture? There have been some innovations lately (capship, RTS - TopAce had a cool ferry mission in his latest campaign), and there are environmental variables (Nebula, atmospheric, interior), but most of these are pretty asset heavy and complicated. Not doing the occasional stealth mission is kind of a disservice IMO, especially over longer campaigns.
-
They often damage verisimilitude a bit, because they're something that ought to be the preserve of specialists, and unless you construct an entire campaign of stealth missions...
Actually that's not a terrible idea. A whole campaign based around a recon wing, where combat missions are the rarity. It would be a pain to FRED, though.
-
Sometimes they can be fun, sometimes they can be a giant pain.
In "Sol: A History", there was a stealth mission where you had to stay between 500m-1000m from a cruiser you were trailing AND avoid multiple fighter patrols at the same time. I loved the campaign overall but hated that mission.
-
It's all about execution. Doing something different from the main meat of FS missions can be interesting, but is also a big risk to take.
The amount of people saying they dislike those missions just shows that many of them were badly executed, not that the concept is flawed.
-
I'm going to agree with MattTheGeek here, stealth missions can be fun, if they are done correctly. For instance, in the Blue Planet mission "Everything Permitted" where you have to assassinate the elder, it was all about timing and precision, doing something stupid would give you away, however, completing the objective would also reveal you depending on your strategy, forcing you to find a way to escape.
And while I don't know if this qualifies, in Ace Combat 6, during the mission where you have to fly through the gorge to destroy a WMD, you would encounter troops and buildings on the ground that would attempt to send a message ahead to the fortress on the other side. You would have to destroy each checkpoint within the allotted time limit or else the message would be sent. However you couldn't fly above a certain altitude or it would be mission failure. I don't know why but I found it quite enjoyable.
-
In "Sol: A History", there was a stealth mission where you had to stay between 500m-1000m from a cruiser you were trailing AND avoid multiple fighter patrols at the same time. I loved the campaign overall but hated that mission.
Ah yes, i remember that mission. One of the few missions within campaigns i never played in the regular way. After 10 retries i had enough and used FS2.com. :D.
I actually do not like Stealth missions very much. Many of them are just too hard for me.. or too long, because it takes ages before i can remember the flight pattern.
I remember.. i hated the one in Dimensional Eclipse. On the other hand, the stealth missions in Ancient-Shivan War were surprisingly easy. I prefer the latter one... in which the fighters are flying paths, that have some distance to the objects you have to scan.
But i do not miss them if a campaign do not have such mission, i personally prefer standard combat deployments :D.
-
There is nothing inherent to FS2 gameplay that makes stealth missions intrinsically unsuitable. We have a wide array of tools available to make plausible (and, of course playable) stealth missions, it's just that as far as I can see, the retail examples of those are all kinda terrible.
If you take the time to actually analyze how gameplay in stealth titles works and think about how to apply those mechanics to FS2, then you'll get a much better mission than the retail-style "Stay away from objects X, Y and Z for time T while completing objective O". The thing about the retail missions is that they're very simplistic. If you however give the player an objective, a boundary condition, and a bunch of tools to accomplish said mission, then you're hitting the same sort of sweet spot that stealth games usually aim for. Obviously, this requires a lot of skill on the part of the mission designer, and round after round of iterative testing in order to get it right, and that's something that is a far greater hurdle than anything else when it comes to doing stealth gameplay in FS.
-
round after round of iterative testing in order to get it right, and that's something that is a far greater hurdle than anything else when it comes to doing stealth gameplay in FS.
Oh my, these missions are bad enough as it is, I can't imagine having to go through that to make one. I'm sick of them by the time I've beaten one and put it in my rear view mirror for good.
-
Well, it seems the community's opinions on the subject are... mixed. Some people, though, like these missions better when they're more detailed than the traditional FS format, which is understandable.
round after round of iterative testing in order to get it right, and that's something that is a far greater hurdle than anything else when it comes to doing stealth gameplay in FS.
Oh my, these missions are bad enough as it is, I can't imagine having to go through that to make one. I'm sick of them by the time I've beaten one and put it in my rear view mirror for good.
Now, I hate stealth missions too, and would rather just ~k all the escort fighters than take the time and effort to complete them properly, but some people do find them enjoyable (and put quite a bit of effort into developing good ones), and we can surely respect that.
Does anyone have a good idea for how to build a stealth mission where you don't lose the mission just by making one error? Regular FS gameplay allows you to make a few mistakes and still win the level; a tactical or piloting slipup might cost you or your escort ships some hull integrity, but you might still be able to pull out a victory. Traditional stealth missions, though, have zero tolerance for any significant error. If you get too close to the patrol ships even once, even if you've scanned 9 out of the 10 ships, everything dogpiles you and you lose, bar cheating or possibly bad mission design. In some missions, you are warned if you're too close to an enemy ship, but it's still unpleasant (IMO) to lose a mission (and maybe a lot of progress) because a patrol ship catches you as you're trying to do your job and scan things. Some of this attitude might just be because I'm an impatient gamer and don't want to put much effort into remembering flight patterns to "solve" missions of a type I already don't like. But would a more error-friendly approach make stealth missions more enjoyable, if it were implemented?
For another solution, do you think that stealth missions in mostly-traditional campaigns could just be shunted into optional SOC loops and such, so that players who don't like them can just avoid them altogether?
-
I do respect that.
Heh, to go through what to me would be the torture of making one, I certainly respect that! :D
My toys aren't going to be going out of the pram or anything because someone puts a stealth mission or two into a campaign. The problem though is they're simply not fun. They're work. I can actually derive some small enjoyment out of the mission on the first attempt, but unless I one shot the mission, then it's exactly the same mission and not fun, it's just work, not play. At least if you keep getting obliterated in a standard mission, the mission will still flow differently on repeated attempts. The stealth mission is exactly the same.
-
end of the day Lepanto if you are putting some ideas together then go with what you are comfortable with designing and testing, its like when FS's dubious areas of canon are discussed in terms of making a mod, go with what works for you so if you dont like stealth missions then do something else that does work for you.
-
While my opinion is just don't make them at all, I've thought of something.
Maybe instead of something like Mission 8: Stealthy Stuff you could have:
Mission 8a: Stealthy Stuff Part 1
Mission 8b: Stealthy Stuff Part 2
Mission 8c: Stealthy Stuff Part 3
Mission 8d: Stealthy Stuff Part 4
Mission 8e: Stealthy Stuff Part 5
It's a stealth mission, but broken up into 5 short segments. This way you get the best of two Worlds. If you don't like them, this will remove much of the frustrations, if you clear parts 1,2 and 3, then fail on 4, you don't have to start back at 1. On the other hand, if you like these missions and feel you're being babied by this setup, you simply have to clear them, and unless you one-shotted them all, then you go into the techroom and try to clear all five of them without failing at any point, and if you fail, start over at Part 1.
-
Does anyone have a good idea for how to build a stealth mission where you don't lose the mission just by making one error? Regular FS gameplay allows you to make a few mistakes and still win the level; a tactical or piloting slipup might cost you or your escort ships some hull integrity, but you might still be able to pull out a victory. Traditional stealth missions, though, have zero tolerance for any significant error. If you get too close to the patrol ships even once, even if you've scanned 9 out of the 10 ships, everything dogpiles you and you lose, bar cheating or possibly bad mission design. In some missions, you are warned if you're too close to an enemy ship, but it's still unpleasant (IMO) to lose a mission (and maybe a lot of progress) because a patrol ship catches you as you're trying to do your job and scan things. Some of this attitude might just be because I'm an impatient gamer and don't want to put much effort into remembering flight patterns to "solve" missions of a type I already don't like. But would a more error-friendly approach make stealth missions more enjoyable, if it were implemented?
This is something I wanted to mention but then forgot about.
If you look at the gameplay mechanics of "real" stealth games, like the Metal Gear Solid series, Deus Ex, or Dishonored, they always give you tools that'll allow you to slip away from sight, wait a bit for the enemies to switch from an "attacking" to a "searching" back to a "patrolling" state. This doesn't put you into a failure state (although it may make further attempts more difficult!), and allows you to still accomplish the mission.
There's also an issue with the complete lack of a native checkpointing system; nothing is more frustrating than triggering a failure at minute 19 of a 20 minute mission. Thus sexp checkpoints, or use of the checkpoint script, is strongly encouraged.
While my opinion is just don't make them at all, I've thought of something.
Maybe instead of something like Mission 8: Stealthy Stuff you could have:
*something rather complicated*
Why not use checkpoints instead? Much easier.
-
Why not use checkpoints instead? Much easier.
I've never played a mission with checkpoints, but if you had to switch off your machine in the middle somewhere, wouldn't you have to start over again? Not a problem with my way. It also allows you to replay specific chunks of the mission in the techroom.
-
indeed that is where a native save system would be ideal but heck just having WiH checkpoints is better than replaying 15-20 mins of mission when you dont have to
-
Ah, it would be nice to be able to savescum. And what a boon it would be for testing purposes.
-
You might want to look at Shadow Genesis. They have used checkpoints extensively in their missions. I also believe they have a stealth mission where if you are spotted you can run away and the hostiles lose track of you so you can continue on.
-
You might want to look at Shadow Genesis. They have used checkpoints extensively in their missions. I also believe they have a stealth mission where if you are spotted you can run away and the hostiles lose track of you so you can continue on.
Heh. Got a couple of problems there since I'm still on 3.6.12 after issues with 3.6.14, and my C drive is all but full...
But thanks for the advice. I had a look at it's page and it looks intriguing.
-
Why not use checkpoints instead? Much easier.
I've never played a mission with checkpoints, but if you had to switch off your machine in the middle somewhere, wouldn't you have to start over again? Not a problem with my way. It also allows you to replay specific chunks of the mission in the techroom.
Checkpoints save as soon as they're called, and you could call them up in the tech room by looking for an "in campaign" variable (or rather checking if you're not in a campaign). Splitting a mission up into 5 mini-missions would be pretty annoying, for the player and fredder, 5 load screens, events to carry through things like position and events. With just using Admiral MS's checkpoint stuff, it's all a breeze!
-
I'll be interested to see how that works one day.
-
Don't shoot me for asking this, but do checkpoints work for single missions which are not part of campaign?
For example, if I add checkpoints in a Gauntlet mission in FSPort, will they work as intended?
I am quite confused with the nature of PPVs (player-persistent variables) and reading about it on the wiki did not help me somehow. :banghead:
-
If you use Admiral MS's checkpoint script, yes, they do work in missions that are not part of campaigns. The checkpoint script saves a file in a folder that lists everything required for the save.
If you're just keeping general progress with sexp variables, those will only work in a campaign, since they're saved with the pilot file. Player persistent variables will save right away (provided you're in a campaign). Campaign persistent will only save if the mission has been successfully completed.
-
If you use Admiral MS's checkpoint script, yes, they do work in missions that are not part of campaigns. The checkpoint script saves a file in a folder that lists everything required for the save.
Any idea where that script is? I am toooooo lazy to search the boards.
-
Then I am toooooooooo lazy to post it for you.
-
Then I am toooooooooo lazy to post it for you.
Tit for Tat. :mad:
You sir are brilliant for teaching me a proverb. :yes:
-
CHECKPOINT HIJACK: This thread is now about checkpoints, apparently.
Lorric, sorry if I misread your tone or attitude.
headdie, this topic was just out of curiosity, though I'll keep what people have said here in mind modding-wise.
The E, I agree that some kind of way to get back under cover once detected would be useful, if handled logically. Of course, that wouldn't make sense for undercover missions (though if you've got a mission where one supposedly-enemy fighter is flying around the enemy fleet and scanning things, it probably doesn't make sense anyway.)
-
Then I am toooooooooo lazy to post it for you.
Tit for Tat. :mad:
You sir are brilliant for teaching me a proverb. :yes:
seriously though, its not like the search function is so broken you cant find it for yourself, worst comes to google it. Seriously I found it in 2 mins using google.
and yer tends to happen around here lol, and no problem everyone doing what they want in their own way is why there are often several informal ways to do the same thing.
(though if you've got a mission where one supposedly-enemy fighter is flying around the enemy fleet and scanning things, it probably doesn't make sense anyway.)
Depends how you play it, if it looks like the player has bugged out then the fleet will remain on high alert but not be actively seeking the player.
another idea would be to do a reverse stealth mission. set the player up for a typical escort, when they arrive give them what they expect, some skirmishes or something to distract them like ghost readings in a nebula or asteroid field and slip in an enemy stealth fighter while they are not looking. Let the player proceed as normal and see if they spot the enemy fighter(s) before it finishes it's mission and bugs out.
-
another idea would be to do a reverse stealth mission. set the player up for a typical escort, when they arrive give them what they expect, some skirmishes or something to distract them like ghost readings in a nebula or asteroid field and slip in an enemy stealth fighter while they are not looking. Let the player proceed as normal and see if they spot the enemy fighter(s) before it finishes it's mission and bugs out.
Hmm, an interesting idea, and one I don't recall having seen before in campaigns. Of course, if anti-stealth is a primary mission objective, the player should be given sufficient hints that something is up, so they don't fail the mission before they notice the stealth fighter. Secondary or bonus objectives would be a different story.
-
Stelath mesions are teh siht.
-
(http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/open-source-insider/2011/02/21/Drunk%20Androids.png)
-
another idea would be to do a reverse stealth mission. set the player up for a typical escort, when they arrive give them what they expect, some skirmishes or something to distract them like ghost readings in a nebula or asteroid field and slip in an enemy stealth fighter while they are not looking. Let the player proceed as normal and see if they spot the enemy fighter(s) before it finishes it's mission and bugs out.
Hmm, an interesting idea, and one I don't recall having seen before in campaigns. Of course, if anti-stealth is a primary mission objective, the player should be given sufficient hints that something is up, so they don't fail the mission before they notice the stealth fighter. Secondary or bonus objectives would be a different story.
Its been a while since I fredded but IIRC you can change objective types so if the objective was listed as a bonus it wouldn't show on the briefing but by using the delay function you could move the objective to a primary just before you set it as completed if you wanted it to be a primary goal
-
*snip*
Was there a point you were trying to make?
Other than "I do not like stealth missions", that is. If that's what you were trying to get at, I would suggest to keep it to yourself. We know your attitude now, no need to repeat it ad nauseum.
Oh, I see, you were trying to make a point about Droid being drunk. Sorry.
-
Its been a while since I fredded but IIRC you can change objective types so if the objective was listed as a bonus it wouldn't show on the briefing but by using the delay function you could move the objective to a primary just before you set it as completed if you wanted it to be a primary goal
Creating two same goals of different types, keeping one valid and the other invalid. Later in mission through SEXPs validating the invalid one and invalidating the valid one. This is the right method, right?
-
I don't mind stealth missions, but the ones where there are like 10 fighters, all of which you need to stay >2km away from... it's a pain in the ass to keep track of them all.
-
Its been a while since I fredded but IIRC you can change objective types so if the objective was listed as a bonus it wouldn't show on the briefing but by using the delay function you could move the objective to a primary just before you set it as completed if you wanted it to be a primary goal
Creating two same goals of different types, keeping one valid and the other invalid. Later in mission through SEXPs validating the invalid one and invalidating the valid one. This is the right method, right?
Yep (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/FAQ/fredretail.html#events).
-
I'm... not a fan. At all.
That being said, there are good ones (Everything Is Permitted) where you have a lot of tools but even then I tend not to enjoy myself on those. It's like my taste in music. For example, Queen is a good band that make good music, I just don't like it at all (and I think I just signed my death warrant with that sentence).
Then again, my way of playing stealth missions in other games is to silently murder every single person in the base and kill every camera so I can waltz about with impunity. I foresee FREDing a mission where that's possible might be an issue.
-
For example, Queen is a good band that make good music, I just don't like it at all (and I think I just signed my death warrant with that sentence).
I'll back you up on that. On the rare occasion when I'm around a group of people who break out in Bohemian Rhapsody, I need to leave the room.
-
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?...
edit: on topic, I think stealth missions are good to spice up a campaign, but I'm not fan at all of them. Particularly cause I suck at being subtle.
-
when I'm around a group of people who break out in Bohemian Rhapsody
You are around people who break out in Bohemian Rhapsody?
That song makes me cringe. As far as the band goes though, they have some songs under the belt that I like.
-
HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HAT3 HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HAET HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HAET HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HA3T HATE HATE HATE HATE ...
What I like are furballs!
Or better yet, furballs inside thick asteroid fields! Although very few FS2 missions have such a thing. I love dodging around lots of closely packed asteroids while dogfighting; Stops people getting cheap shots on you while really testing your ability to fly!
Furball in a thick asteroid field in a nebula would be great fun except for the current terrible implementation of nebulas; The fixed plane implementation just seems really daft when 3D cards have been able to simulate proper fog since the Voodoo 1! I remember it not so bad in retail on a Voodoo2 but, at least with SCP on my 7950GT nebular missions are horrible; You can be right next to something and all you can see is the nebular plane!
Cap-ship fights are always fun too, but more for spectating than actually playing since usually it's really a defend-the-bombers mission or you're just pecking them to death :lol:
-
You are around people who break out in Bohemian Rhapsody?
More specifically, I was at a party where there was a playlist going, and when it flipped to Bohemian Rhapsody everybody started singing along with inebriated enthusiasm. That didn't happen with any other song on the playlist.
-
You are around people who break out in Bohemian Rhapsody?
More specifically, I was at a party where there was a playlist going, and when it flipped to Bohemian Rhapsody everybody started singing along with inebriated enthusiasm. That didn't happen with any other song on the playlist.
Ah, I see. :)
Heh, I'd be clearing out of that room from such an affront to my senses as well if it was me! :lol:
-
I'm ambivalent towards stealth missions. It's a nice idea and a welcome change of pace, but a poorly-designed one can quickly become a frustrating and tedious nightmare. A well-designed mission makes for an interesting experience, but if too many people try to make stealth missions and the average quality is poor, there's a risk that stealth missions will be shunned as overused. Unless that already happened.
-
You are around people who break out in Bohemian Rhapsody?
More specifically, I was at a party where there was a playlist going, and when it flipped to Bohemian Rhapsody everybody started singing along with inebriated enthusiasm. That didn't happen with any other song on the playlist.
Ah, I see. :)
Heh, I'd be clearing out of that room from such an affront to my senses as well if it was me! :lol:
drunk or sober I would be joining in lol
-
drunk or sober I would be joining in lol
:warp:
:)
-
You might want to look at Shadow Genesis. They have used checkpoints extensively in their missions. I also believe they have a stealth mission where if you are spotted you can run away and the hostiles lose track of you so you can continue on.
Heh. Got a couple of problems there since I'm still on 3.6.12 after issues with 3.6.14, and my C drive is all but full...
But thanks for the advice. I had a look at it's page and it looks intriguing.
Check your PMs.
-
You are around people who break out in Bohemian Rhapsody?
you've seen the drunk guy who sung it in the back of the cop car right?
More specifically, I was at a party where there was a playlist going, and when it flipped to Bohemian Rhapsody everybody started singing along with inebriated enthusiasm. That didn't happen with any other song on the playlist.
Don't Stop Believing must not have come up then.
in general i don't care all that much for queen, but Bohemian Rhapsody is just one of those all time great songs and i would definitely be one of the fools singing along.
-
Sadly, I've never been in crowd that'd break into one of the songs I'd actually sing along to.
-
Sadly, I've never been in crowd that'd break into one of the songs I'd actually sing along to.
You should hang out with magical girls doing karaoke. (I would, I just cant seem to find them)
BP act 3 stealth missions were all rad.
Stealth missions before act 3 showed us the light have all been kinda painful to play through. Cycling through enemy fighters and checking distances while having very little else to do just isn't a whole lotta fun to me. I blame everyone just blindly copying retail freespace gameplay from the one stealth mission example they've shown us.
-
You should hang out with magical girls doing karaoke. (I would, I just cant seem to find them)
I don't think they're the type to sing Flagpole Sitta or Mexican Radio either.
-
With the exception of Tenebra, I think I have uniformly hated every stealth mission I've played in FSO. I mean, I love well-executed stealth games, like Dishonoured or HR, but they're working with a gameplay formula that admits to stealth far more readily (thanks to the plentiful cover and more constrained, precise positioning of FPSes) and on top of that they were made with far more malleable engines than FSO; comparing them to "stay away from enemy patrol" missions is almost insulting.
-
With the exception of Tenebra, I think I have uniformly hated every stealth mission I've played in FSO. I mean, I love well-executed stealth games, like Dishonoured or HR, but they're working with a gameplay formula that admits to stealth far more readily (thanks to the plentiful cover and more constrained, precise positioning of FPSes) and on top of that they were made with far more malleable engines than FSO; comparing them to "stay away from enemy patrol" missions is almost insulting.
I have to agree to this post right here, they just aren't comparable to one another, I mean you can compare the above, dishonoured and Human Revolution, because they are in the same genre more or less, FSO is a space sim at its core and isn't readily built for stealth missions, they can be done, but most of them are the same really.
-
And indeed, even in Tenebra the stealth component is very limited and would be fairly boring were it not mostly there to facilitate all the other gameplay mechanics introduced.
-
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Most, if not all stealth missions I recall were to sneak around, scan something, and nothing else...
What about being an artillery spotter and tagging ships while staying away from enemy patrols (and if they locate your stealth ship the mission ain't failed- it's only tagging along while being chased by over 9000 enemies), or some other mix of staying quiet while watching fireworks?
P.S. Just watched the drunk Rhapsody guy...
Physical violence is the least of my priorities.
-
What about being an artillery spotter and tagging ships while staying away from enemy patrols (and if they locate your stealth ship the mission ain't failed- it's only tagging along while being chased by over 9000 enemies), or some other mix of staying quiet while watching fireworks?
Aka Her Finest Hour.
-
(Also Con Fuoco from Vassago's Dirge)
-
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Most, if not all stealth missions I recall were to sneak around, scan something, and nothing else...
What about being an artillery spotter and tagging ships while staying away from enemy patrols (and if they locate your stealth ship the mission ain't failed- it's only tagging along while being chased by over 9000 enemies), or some other mix of staying quiet while watching fireworks?
P.S. Just watched the drunk Rhapsody guy...
Physical violence is the least of my priorities.
Yeah, another common theme of ****ty stealth missions is that they make avoiding detection the primary challenge for the player, generally by requiring that the player move between some arbitrary thicket of patrols and putting you in a failstate when detected. I think that's why Nexus' stealth component was so reviled, despite it having a pretty decent set of mechanics for it.
-
The last stealth mission I played was (I think) from the Aeos Affair, and it involved flying several thousand meters out of my way to avoid most of the main mission area, and then getting extremely lucky while trying to dart between gaps in patrols. Needless to say, it was an exercise in frustration. Like a few people said earlier, I think any stealth mission that follows the retail model has a basic flaw in that FS's gameplay doesn't give you any tools to maintain stealth, other than flying away in a random direction from whatever gets near you. And if you are discovered, it's usually either an instant mission fail, or else you have enough enemies descending on you that you'll probably wind up getting killed anyway. (Oddly enough, though, I never had any trouble with "Playing Judas" itself: you can basically fly in a straight line and then sit still, and nothing comes very close to you.) I think it's notable that FS2 chose to turn the concept on its head with "Proving Ground," instead of having you do the stealth thing yourself. It is possible to make an interesting stealth mission, and a few campaigns have done them, but they usually involve thinking outside the box a bit in terms of design.
-
I always thought about an asteroid type mission where you aren't in a stealth fighter but when you get within the distance of certain asteroids you automatically become stealthed. You would obviously have the patrols, but the main restricting factor in stealth is that you have to have a stealth fighter which are invariably either incredibly overpowered or a pile or ****.
I liked how BP approached it where the stealth was the secondary element to the killing stuff. However they suffered from having their stealth fighters be incredibly overpowered. I'll be putting a stealth mission of sorts in my campaign so I'm keeping an eye on the ideas in this thread. Was thinking something along the lines of being an artillery spotter for an incoming capital ship or cruiser to enable a piracy operation.
-
I dislike stealth missions, but I love stealth fighters.
The problem is that it's easy to miss even one factor that causes enemy forces to be all like "excuse me wtf r u doin" and then kill you in the span of two seconds, because the "stealth" in "stealth fighter" clearly means "cannot withstand attack from space mosquitoes."
-
I think WiH act 3 did a damned good job at them.
-
(Also Con Fuoco from Vassago's Dirge)
Which is fun!