Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nakura on August 01, 2013, 02:55:33 pm
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August 1st is the National Day of Switzerland! I don't know about you, but I for one have a great deal of respect for the Swiss. The Swiss have many admirable qualities and, in my eyes, are one of the few truly free countries. The Swiss operate a system of conscription, which is to say that every citizen is required to own a firearm and undergo military training. In my eyes, Switzerland is one of the few remaining bastions of freedom in this world.
For over 700 years Switzerland has stood as beacon of hope as it's neighbors fought amongst each other and forced their citizens into serfdom. The Swiss have always been fiercely independent, have maintained a non-interventionist foreign policy for centuries, refuse to join the European Union and only joined the United Nations in 2002. Today the Swiss operate a mixed system of representative democracy and direct democracy, where citizens can vote on laws and propose new laws. The largest political party in Switzerland is the right-wing Swiss People's Party, which strongly opposes Swiss involvement in the European Union and United Nations, as well as supporting free-markets and agrarianism.
Anyway, let's celebrate this brilliant country! Anyone have any plans today to celebrate?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Flag_of_Switzerland_%28Pantone%29.svg/320px-Flag_of_Switzerland_%28Pantone%29.svg.png)
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Yes, we know how much you love Switzerland...
Out of curiosity, do we even have any active native swiss users?
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Yes, we know how much you love Switzerland...
Out of curiosity, do we even have any active native swiss users?
I'm not sure if we do or not, but I sure hope so.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Switzerland?
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Yes, we know how much you love Switzerland...
Out of curiosity, do we even have any active native swiss users?
i am sure we did but not sure if they are active atm
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The Swiss have many admirable qualities and, in my eyes, are one of the few truly free countries. The Swiss operate a system of conscription, which is to say that every citizen is required to own a firearm and undergo military training. In my eyes, Switzerland is one of the few remaining bastions of freedom in this world.
This doesn't sound like freedom to me. I for one am glad I haven't been pulled from my home and forced to serve in the military whether I like it or not here in the UK.
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...one of the few truly free countries. The Swiss operate a system of conscription...
Brilliant follow up. Not even the best poes could ever dream surpassing this ****. :lol:
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Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Switzerland?
Neutral.
Swiss cheese.
Red Cross.
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I like how the OP's reasoning pretty much centers around easy access to weapons. I suppose under this set of criteria Somalia must be a paradise.
Anyway yay Switzerland
(http://rap361.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/94133-004-7c39f857.jpg)
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The only true paradise is the one where everyone gets at least a free nuke.
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The only true paradise is the one where everyone gets at least a free nuke.
The ultimate freedom is from life? ;7
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The only true paradise is the one where everyone gets at least a free nuke.
Nuke stop hijacking peoples accounts lol ;)
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Considering the Swiss used to be something like a landlocked version of the vikings, plundering their neighbours, working as mercenaries and generally making a nuisance of themselves (much like the Scots...or the Afghans. Must be a mountain-dweller thing), it's really no surprise that Nakura feels kinship with them.
Hick.
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The Swiss have many admirable qualities and, in my eyes, are one of the few truly free countries.
The Swiss operate a system of conscription, which is to say that every citizen is required to own a firearm and undergo military training.
I can't handle all the freedom, I need the government to intervene in my life even more.
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The Swiss have many admirable qualities and, in my eyes, are one of the few truly free countries.
The Swiss operate a system of conscription, which is to say that every citizen is required to own a firearm and undergo military training.
I can't handle all the freedom, I need the government to intervene in my life even more.
Freedom isn't free.
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Freedom isn't free.
Irrelevant. Forcing an unwilling person into military service is not freedom and never will be.
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Here we go.
Freedom isn't free.
Then what makes Swiss "freedom" any different from the rest of Europe?
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Freedom isn't free.
Irrelevant. Forcing an unwilling person into military service is not freedom and never will be.
Which is why I opt for the Heinlein route instead. You can choose to not serve society, but in doing so, you will not be able to make decisions for society.
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The Swiss have many admirable qualities and, in my eyes, are one of the few truly free countries.
The Swiss operate a system of conscription, which is to say that every citizen is required to own a firearm and undergo military training.
I can't handle all the freedom, I need the government to intervene in my life even more.
Freedom isn't free.
Of course it isn't. That's why it's called free.. wait.
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Here we go.
Freedom isn't free.
Then what makes Swiss "freedom" any different from the rest of Europe?
Freedom is more than just a government, it's an ideal. In order to have freedom, the people have to value freedom. I believe I covered this in my European serfdom thread. Though it would probably be best if we didn't bring that up, as not to offend anyone. We should all get along and respect each other, this is a thread to celebrate Swiss culture and their identity.
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Freedom is more than just a government
Really, this thread is gonna be a massive source of amazing quotes. Keep it up man! :yes:
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Not sure if should lock, or just laugh.
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Which is why I opt for the Heinlein route instead. You can choose to not serve society, but in doing so, you will not be able to make decisions for society.
Which is also absurd. A government that has no option but to coerce its population into its defense has serious legitimacy problems.
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So the Swiss government forcing its citizens to own a firearm is okay but other EU governments enforcing other policies makes their populace serfs?
Choco Weggli and Toblerone are pretty awesome.
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Which is why I opt for the Heinlein route instead. You can choose to not serve society, but in doing so, you will not be able to make decisions for society.
Which is also absurd. A government that has no option but to coerce its population into its defense has serious legitimacy problems.
I'm afraid that's what it's come to. We have to defend ourselves from the lechers and communists that would leave our nation corrupt. If we let down the walls, let down the defenses, even for a second, the parasites will surely strike and destroy all that we have worked so hard to build.
I believe that only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it. To each their own though.
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Which is why I opt for the Heinlein route instead. You can choose to not serve society, but in doing so, you will not be able to make decisions for society.
Which is also absurd. A government that has no option but to coerce its population into its defense has serious legitimacy problems.
I'm afraid that's what it's come to. We have to defend ourselves from the lechers and communists that would leave our nation corrupt. If we let down the walls, let down the defenses, even for a second, the parasites will surely strike and destroy all that we have worked so hard to build.
/sarcasm
I believe that only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it. To each their own though.
Precious bodily fluids?
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I sometimes have this perverted wish where all these folks who proclaim they'll die for our freedoms would just do that instantly and free us from their boring annoying company.
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only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it.
How exactly does this follow?
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Which is why I opt for the Heinlein route instead. You can choose to not serve society, but in doing so, you will not be able to make decisions for society.
Which is also absurd. A government that has no option but to coerce its population into its defense has serious legitimacy problems.
I'm afraid that's what it's come to. We have to defend ourselves from the lechers and communists that would leave our nation corrupt. If we let down the walls, let down the defenses, even for a second, the parasites will surely strike and destroy all that we have worked so hard to build.
/sarcasm
I believe that only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it. To each their own though.
So you want to turn military into self service rather than service to ones country?
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He's just voicing Heinlein. He'll grow up eventually. I think.
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only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it.
How exactly does this follow?
Why should someone make decisions for society if they aren't willing to defend that society?
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only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it.
How exactly does this follow?
Why should someone make decisions for society if they aren't willing to defend that society?
What society would that be? You've turned military service into a vehicle for self interest rather than society.
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only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it.
How exactly does this follow?
Why should someone make decisions for society if they aren't willing to defend that society?
What society would that be? You've turned military service into a vehicle for self interest rather than society.
It already is a vehicle for self-service, however. Many people who enlist in the military today only do it because they want healthcare or citizenship (for immigrants) or free college or a pension or they simply can't find another job.
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I believe that only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it. To each their own though.
here is the thing though, if the state requires you to spend time in military service is the person truly willing?
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here is something you might not like.
My full position on this is:
required conscription is a reduction of personal freedoms simple as but by itself that is not necessarily a bad thing, in this case there are demonstrable advantages for both society in general and the individual including guaranteeing a standing military, a high standard of physical fitness for the individuals as a shared experience to them as well.
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Okay Ayn Rand, the gig is over.
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Also, I don't think that wanting to vote is "self-serving" per se. You're wanting to make decisions for society to make it a better place for everyone. I'm really not sure I'd call that self-serving...
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The price of freedom is giving up your freedom, but the receipt for freedom is one of those cute little flag pins!
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I believe that only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it. To each their own though.
here is the thing though, if the state requires you to spend time in military service is the person truly willing?
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here is something you might not like.
My full position on this is:
required conscription is a reduction of personal freedoms simple as but by itself that is not necessarily a bad thing, in this case there are demonstrable advantages for both society in general and the individual including guaranteeing a standing military, a high standard of physical fitness for the individuals as a shared experience to them as well.
A good point, which is one of the reasons I don't support conscription.
Thank you for sharing your position, you make some valid points. Absolutely, society would be healthier and defended against invaders. I think it would also provide a mental, as well as physical, advantage to society. For instance, it would give people a sense of purpose and a sense of responsibility to society, as well as teach them respect and teamwork.
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It already is a vehicle for self-service, however. Many people who enlist in the military today only do it because they want healthcare or citizenship (for immigrants) or free college or a pension or they simply can't find another job.
I like how you just equated the military to "I can't do better so I guess I'll join the Corps"
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It already is a vehicle for self-service, however. Many people who enlist in the military today only do it because they want healthcare or citizenship (for immigrants) or free college or a pension or they simply can't find another job.
I like how you just equated the military to "I can't do better so I guess I'll join the Corps"
I said that a lot of people who enlist do it for those reasons, rather than out of a sense of patriotism or duty to society. I didn't say "all," nor did I say "most," I said "many."
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So, now you are against conscription even though you were idolizing it a few moments before?
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So, now you are against conscription even though you were idolizing it a few moments before?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a better system than that of most other countries, even if there are better alternatives out there.
For instance, an MMP voting system is preferable to FPTP, but instant-runoff is better than MMP. Therefore, I can praise MMP, while still advocating for another system.
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"I shoulder this burden so that other might not have to." That is the quintessential quality of that makes the sacrifice of a volunteer soldier so valuable. If you deprive society of freedom except those who serve in the military it turns into: "I shoulder this burden so I and a select group of people can vote." Can you see where you have fundamentally eliminated the value of voluntary military service by turning it into a vehicle of self interest?
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It already is a vehicle for self-service, however. Many people who enlist in the military today only do it because they want healthcare or citizenship (for immigrants) or free college or a pension or they simply can't find another job.
I like how you just equated the military to "I can't do better so I guess I'll join the Corps"
I said that a lot of people who enlist do it for those reasons, rather than out of a sense of patriotism or duty to society. I didn't say "all," nor did I say "most," I said "many."
Okay so "most" of them are doing it for self interest because they can't do better. Next time you're in a bar with members of the military I'm sure they'd love to discuss this with you. However this presents a problem. If most of them have enlisted not to protect freedom, how do we award the right to freedom and democracy? I suppose we could only allocate those rights posthumously since really its the only way to be sure.
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Why should someone make decisions for society if they aren't willing to defend that society?
Assumption: Only military service counts as defending that society.
Obvious problem: Military service in the modern era is dependent on myriad privately produced objects, which are made by people who are reliant on other privately produced objects to make those objects, many of whom are probably not even citizens of the country.
You have chosen a completely arbitrary line, and in being completely arbitrary I could choose any other line I wished and have an equally valid argument.
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"I shoulder this burden so that other might not have to." That is the quintessential quality of that makes the sacrifice of a volunteer soldier so valuable. If you deprive society of freedom except those who serve in the military it turns into: "I shoulder this burden so I and a select group of people can vote." Can you see where you have fundamentally eliminated the value of voluntary military service by turning it into a vehicle of self interest?
And some may choose to do that, but where is the problem in that? There are people who do that today and there will always be people who do that, so long as you offer any sort of incentive for military service [even pay]. Unless we lived in a post-scarcity society [Star Trek? lol], which simply isn't possible. You can't get something for nothing, everything has price. People don't just decide to vote because they feel like it, especially when two years of military service is a prerequisite. They do it because they wish to make a difference in society, which is a self-less reason.
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Oh god I can't stop laughing
The only thing that distinguishes every person who served in the military from everyone who didn't is that they served in the military, where (at least in most branches of the american service) they learned how to follow orders above all else.
Truly, those are qualities you want in people deciding things.
You are assuming, without any basis in reality, that people in the military would always and without question make better leaders. That the hearts of the defenders of the state are so pure that no amount of self-serving power brokers could possibly lead your state to disaster.
The only thing you're doing is to preempt one of the failure states of democracy by skipping the democracy bits and going straight to oligarchy. Actually, come to think of it, you're basically going directly for something that is functionally indistinguishable from a theocracy.
Yeah, you must really love Freedom.
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I'll make one last pass at this.
"Only people who are willing to die for it deserve freedom and democracy."
The value in self sacrifice for freedom comes from the fact that you are shouldering that burden for your entire society. In a nation with a volunteer military and freedom and rights for all members of the society, that willingness is exemplary. Now if you remove the freedom and rights of that society ransom them only members of the military then you have eliminated the quality that made that sacrifice so valuable. Instead you have turned that service into payment for your personal freedom and rights. In essence you've turned it into an act of self interest rather than selfless act. The value of being willing to die for freedom has been made completely moot.
Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. I've seen enough.
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"I shoulder this burden so that other might not have to." That is the quintessential quality of that makes the sacrifice of a volunteer soldier so valuable. If you deprive society of freedom except those who serve in the military it turns into: "I shoulder this burden so I and a select group of people can vote." Can you see where you have fundamentally eliminated the value of voluntary military service by turning it into a vehicle of self interest?
And some may choose to do that, but where is the problem in that? There are people who do that today and there will always be people who do that, so long as you offer any sort of incentive for military service [even pay]. Unless we lived in a post-scarcity society [Star Trek? lol], which simply isn't possible. You can't get something for nothing, everything has price. People don't just decide to vote because they feel like it, especially when two years of military service is a prerequisite. They do it because they wish to make a difference in society, which is a self-less reason.
Uh, the kind of society that runs on "those who don't work don't need to eat" neither needs, nor deserves to be protected. It's the kind of thing that happens to better societies when they break.
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I used to think kind of like this when I was 15, but then I grew up and now I think like an adult.
Free us from your threads.
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I used to think kind of like this when I was 15, but then I grew up and now I think like an adult.
Free us from your threads.
Maybe you can help him if you used to think this way? What changed?
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My ways of thinking changed because I had an open mind and willingness to admit I was wrong before, which I'm pretty sure our boy here lacks.
Hell, he's straight up said repeatedly that makes threads like this just to stir **** up. He trollin'. I seriously don't understand why we have to put up with this. I mean it seemed like just about everyone in the recent New Rules threadnaught was in favor of more proactive moderation rather than getting hung up on the "letter of the law" so to speak.
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So, now you are against conscription even though you were idolizing it a few moments before?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a better system than that of most other countries, even if there are better alternatives out there.
For instance, an MMP voting system is preferable to FPTP, but instant-runoff is better than MMP. Therefore, I can praise MMP, while still advocating for another system.
OK, I may have some issues with other European countries but conscription is definitely a greater violation of individual rights than hate speech laws. Forcing someone into a position where they could potentially die in an entirely unjust war does not uphold freedom.
Also, being in the military and fighting for freedom are not the same thing. The military mentality, at least in the US, is one of unquestioning or nearly unquestioning obedience. That is hardly beneficial for democracy.
I actually don't have any particular opinion on Switzerland though. I am not very familiar with that country.
EDIT: removed quotations because interpretations.
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My ways of thinking changed because I had an open mind and willingness to admit I was wrong before, which I'm pretty sure our boy here lacks.
Hell, he's straight up said repeatedly that makes threads like this just to stir **** up. He trollin'. I seriously don't understand why we have to put up with this. I mean it seemed like just about everyone in the recent New Rules threadnaught was in favor of more proactive moderation rather than getting hung up on the "letter of the law" so to speak.
I still think there might be a chance for a peaceful solution. He's nice when people aren't sticking him on the defensive. It must be hard to let go of things you believe in strongly.
He did also say he wouldn't troll this board.
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... I seriously don't understand why we have to put up with this. I mean it seemed like just about everyone in the recent New Rules threadnaught was in favor of more proactive moderation rather than getting hung up on the "letter of the law" so to speak.
It's like those new year resolutions you want to do, yet never get around to it. :D
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My goodness, this thread is hilarious.
In other news, how about all them Swiss banks and whatnot? Laundering mob money and... being powerful and in movies and... okay I just wanted to say something on topic for some reason.
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Yeah except this is not a debate or reasonable discourse. It's just a few good posters throwing sound logic at a brick wall. And these threads are like the ONLY thing he posts. If I say I'm not a troll and then I act like a troll, I'm still a troll!
He's not even being subtle! Praising conscription as the last bastion of freedom and then turning around saying he doesn't support it. HLP deserves a better class of troll.
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I wonder what happens when we inevitably get a thread like this about Freespace.
Something about how the Vasudans deserved to get their planet glassed because of the clearly superior Shivan way of life...
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Yeah except this is not a debate or reasonable discourse. It's just a few good posters throwing sound logic at a brick wall. And these threads are like the ONLY thing he posts. If I say I'm not a troll and then I act like a troll, I'm still a troll!
He's not even being subtle! Praising conscription as the last bastion of freedom and then turning around saying he doesn't support it. Jfc....
Maybe... I know what you and others are saying, but I wonder if someone just talked to him, it could solve things better than everyone getting riled up and wanting the hammer to drop.
I wonder what happens when we inevitably get a thread like this about Freespace.
Something about how the Vasudans deserved to get their planet glassed because of the clearly superior Shivan way of life...
:lol:
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I'll make one last pass at this.
"Only people who are willing to die for it deserve freedom and democracy."
The value in self sacrifice for freedom comes from the fact that you are shouldering that burden for your entire society. In a nation with a volunteer military and freedom and rights for all members of the society, that willingness is exemplary. Now if you remove the freedom and rights of that society ransom them only members of the military then you have eliminated the quality that made that sacrifice so valuable. Instead you have turned that service into payment for your personal freedom and rights. In essence you've turned it into an act of self interest rather than selfless act. The value of being willing to die for freedom has been made completely moot.
Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. I've seen enough.
The only "freedom" that non-veterans would lack is the lack to vote/hold office. And, of course, teach any lesson in civics. It's not as though they can't run a business or petition the government about their grievances or be discriminated against in any way.
Do you think that Austria, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Korea, Norway, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. discriminate against their citizens by not allowing them to vote until they serve?
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So, now you are against conscription even though you were idolizing it a few moments before?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a better system than that of most other countries, even if there are better alternatives out there.
For instance, an MMP voting system is preferable to FPTP, but instant-runoff is better than MMP. Therefore, I can praise MMP, while still advocating for another system.
OK, I may have some issues with other European countries but conscription is definitely a greater violation of individual rights than hate speech laws. Forcing someone into a position where they could potentially die in an entirely unjust war does not uphold freedom.
Also, being in the military and fighting for freedom are not the same thing. The military mentality, at least in the US, is one of unquestioning or nearly unquestioning obedience. That is hardly beneficial for democracy.
I actually don't have any particular opinion on Switzerland though. I am not very familiar with that country.
EDIT: removed quotations because interpretations.
Could you please elaborate on why you think conscription is a greater violation of individual liberty than "anti-hate speech" laws? All conscription does is ask that citizens perform their civic duty. How is it any different from, say, jury duty?
If you live in a democratic system, even a military-esque democratic system, then the decision to go to war was made with the approval of the people [or at least their democratically elected representatives]. If you don't agree with the war, then you have every right to vote against it, protest against it and help convince others to oppose the war. Those are your rights in a free and open society.
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He's just voicing Heinlein. He'll grow up eventually. I think.
heinlein didn't
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His argument regarding conscription is like the Swiss Nation State in that they were both employed to great effect by the Nazis.
Take that, Switzerland!
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heinlein didn't
He's not Heinlein reincarnated. He doesn't write nearly well enough.
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Wasn't Heinlein into the opposite of this sort of stuff?
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heinlein, from my limited knowledge of the man, waltzed across a range of political creeds across his career, but managed to be a tosspot in all of them
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His argument regarding conscription is like the Swiss Nation State in that they were both employed to great effect by the Nazis.
Take that, Switzerland!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Nazis also supported environment protection, animal rights, spaceflight, welfare programs and an interstate highway system. I guess those are all bad too then, right?
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OK, I may have some issues with other European countries but conscription is definitely a greater violation of individual rights than hate speech laws. Forcing someone into a position where they could potentially die in an entirely unjust war does not uphold freedom.
Also, being in the military and fighting for freedom are not the same thing. The military mentality, at least in the US, is one of unquestioning or nearly unquestioning obedience. That is hardly beneficial for democracy.
I actually don't have any particular opinion on Switzerland though. I am not very familiar with that country.
EDIT: removed quotations because interpretations.
Could you please elaborate on why you think conscription is a greater violation of individual liberty than "anti-hate speech" laws? All conscription does is ask that citizens perform their civic duty. How is it any different from, say, jury duty?
If you live in a democratic system, even a military-esque democratic system, then the decision to go to war was made with the approval of the people [or at least their democratically elected representatives]. If you don't agree with the war, then you have every right to vote against it, protest against it and help convince others to oppose the war. Those are your rights in a free and open society.
Conscription is a greater violation of individual liberty than hate speech laws because it puts people in a position where they could kill or be killed by others without giving them any say in the matter. It is one of the most authoritarian government institutions you could possibly have in a society that still has a democratic political system.
Unfortunately, fear-mongering, human aggression, and bad logic ensure that there is always going to be some chance of getting the voters to support a stupid war. If everyone is forced to fight it, regardless of their personal views, than you have a tyranny of the majority. There is no protection of minority rights. To answer one of your questions, it is different from jury duty because of the vastly greater consequences for the participants.
Now, such a system can be neccesary in extreme circumstances. But so can other authoritarian measures. This does not make them desirable in an ordinary situation.
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Heinlein was against conscription, he believed that a state that forced people to fight for them was one that did not deserve to exist.
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His argument regarding conscription is like the Swiss Nation State in that they were both employed to great effect by the Nazis.
Take that, Switzerland!
Yay Godwin time!
EDIT: You have provided him with a completely fallacious opposing argument that he has shot down. There is no better way to feed a troll, or make an incorrect person more confident of their stance (depending on how you view him).
I think I read that wrong. Sorry about that.
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I believe that only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it. To each their own though.
While you may not be capable of remembering your statements I suffer no such deficiency.
Your posts have been rife with inconsistent and self contradictory remarks. Either you are obfuscating stupidity or are not capable of maintaining meaningful discourse. As it stands you are not even useful as a whetstone with which to sharpen arguments.
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EDIT: You have provided him with a completely fallacious opposing argument that he has shot down. There is no better way to feed a troll, or make an incorrect person more confident of their stance (depending on how you view him).
Since Nakura obviously missed it, I'm going to point out that StarSlayer's statement was definitely sarcasm.
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EDIT: You have provided him with a completely fallacious opposing argument that he has shot down. There is no better way to feed a troll, or make an incorrect person more confident of their stance (depending on how you view him).
Since Nakura obviously missed it, I'm going to point out that StarSlayer's statement was definitely sarcasm.
StarSlayer's or swashmebuckle's?
Did I miss it too? *facepalm* bad Apollo :banghead:
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I ****ed up too. I meant swashmebuckle's. :o
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I reserve the right to preemptively Godwin Nakura threads until they get better or I get monkeyed so help me Karajorma. I have nothing against the Swiss other than this thread, but by Karajorma, HLP's very way of life is under attack--this is no time for neutrality! :hammer:
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I don't think we were expecting a sort of Spanish inquisition!
(I am all for derailing threads that are devolving into fighting with Monty Python quotes!)
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Right. Well, if this thread is going to wander even further off into nonsense, I think we can afford to shut it down for a few days while we decide what needs to happen. If need be, we can reopen it later on.