Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: FlamingCobra on October 03, 2013, 08:08:45 am
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Hope none of you guys are living in Pennsylvania or Maryland.
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2013/10/radioactive-wastewater-from-fracking-is-found-in-a-pennsylvania-stream/#.Ukx4Cpn6i3J.reddit
Here's the Chesapeake Bay watershed for reference:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f3/ChesapeakeBayWatershed.png/459px-ChesapeakeBayWatershed.png)
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There needs to be much more oversight on these issues.
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As I'm pursuing my studies of environmental science, I find myself somewhat heretical in regards to my beliefs on issues relating to oil and fracking. I am not like most environmentaly concerned individuals 100% opposed to fracking. I do think that fracking needs both oversight and enforcement of existing regulations. Companies that cut corners need to be dealt with most harshly. I wish we could hold individuals all the way up to the CEO and the board responsible for the actions of their companies. That is unlikely due to how incorporation works, and how entrenched business is. Lastly it is ridiculous that emergency personel and first responders are not told what chemicals and conditions are used on the site that they have to go onto in the name of "trade secrets"
Also sorry for spelling, I can't
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But if we have more oversight, then it will be harder for companies to cut corners and ignore safety regulations. You're hurting businesses and cutting into their profits. Can't you understand that making money is more important than peoples' lives and health?! :V
I'm sure the poor folks afflicted with cancer and **** from this can just go buy their natural gas from a different natural gas store, and then the invisible hand of the market will just force them to change or go out of business, right? (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-suicide.gif)
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how is it radioactive? were they fracking with nukes?
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But if we have more oversight, then it will be harder for companies to cut corners and ignore safety regulations. You're hurting businesses and cutting into their profits. Can't you understand that making money is more important than peoples' lives and health?! :V
I'm sure the poor folks afflicted with cancer and **** from this can just go buy their natural gas from a different natural gas store, and then the invisible hand of the market will just force them to change or go out of business, right? (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-suicide.gif)
Yeah well those are dumb ideas and should be forced out of the market of ideas anyways. (even the economic idea you ended up with is a wrong one... the gas market is fungible).
how is it radioactive? were they fracking with nukes?
It would help if you actually read the article.
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Good thing the EPA is shut down or someone might have been fined for this! Bless you, Republicans!
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yay! radiation!
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It would help if you actually read the article.
yeah it would, but I'm a bit busy right now
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It would help if you actually read the article.
yeah it would, but I'm a bit busy right now
Radon from the shale is coming up with the fracked water after "exfiltration". The area contains uranium at those depths.
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On the plus side, I live most of the way across the state from this, but...yeah. Fracking's kind of a big issue around here, though on the plus side it makes for really amusing protest signs.
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Great I'm downstream of the runoff from most of the red dots in that article.
BTW while that area might be labeled the Chesapeake Bay watershed quite a bit of that actually goes into the Allegheny and Monongahela rivers that form the Ohio and go on to the Mississippi.
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I wonder how diluted it would be by the time it made it to the Mississippi. Hmm I'm going to look at the concentrations for what they found later tonight
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Lastly it is ridiculous that emergency personel and first responders are not told what chemicals and conditions are used on the site that they have to go onto in the name of "trade secrets"
I thought according to OSHA rules anyone who had to work in the area s required to be allowed access to the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for any hazardous materials used. It would stand to reason that that would apply to emergency workers, too.
Everywhere I've worked - retail warehouse, nursing home, reserve air base, hotel (cleaning agents), bubble wrap factory, effing McDonald's - that's always been the case that I can remember. You always have access to the MSDS.
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Chesapeake. Allegheny. Monongahela. Mississippi.
Who named these?!
Chesapeake makes me think Cheapskate.
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Chesapeake. Allegheny. Monongahela. Mississippi.
Who named these?!
Chesapeake makes me think Cheapskate.
native americans, perhaps you heard of them.
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native americans, perhaps you heard of them.
Is this common practice keeping such names?
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yes, very
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yes, very
I'm quite surprised.
Is it just rivers, or does it extend to other things?
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yes, very
I'm quite surprised.
Is it just rivers, or does it extend to other things?
everything pretty much. they have even gone out of their way renaming things to their original names to appease the natives. for example reverting mt mckinley back to denali.
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yeah, TONES of towns, lakes, roads, rivers, forests, basically anything that could be used as a geographical landmark or region name. there's also a bunch of french and spanish names of things in this country.
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Lastly it is ridiculous that emergency personel and first responders are not told what chemicals and conditions are used on the site that they have to go onto in the name of "trade secrets"
I thought according to OSHA rules anyone who had to work in the area s required to be allowed access to the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for any hazardous materials used. It would stand to reason that that would apply to emergency workers, too.
Everywhere I've worked - retail warehouse, nursing home, reserve air base, hotel (cleaning agents), bubble wrap factory, effing McDonald's - that's always been the case that I can remember. You always have access to the MSDS.
That's how it's supposed to be. It's not in this case for whatever reason. Here's the most recent article I found on it, didn't look very far down on google though. http://grist.org/news/epa-tells-ohio-to-stop-keeping-fracking-secrets-from-first-responders/
I've read several articles all over the place, and this is not just occurring in Ohio. Surprisingly first responders are unhappy with the situation.
Also take thread derail about naming conventions and Native Americans in new topic please
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yes, very
I'm quite surprised.
Is it just rivers, or does it extend to other things?
everything pretty much. they have even gone out of their way renaming things to their original names to appease the natives. for example reverting mt mckinley back to denali.
always thought that was kind of silly, it's not like things have a single name that should be invariant across all languages
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they probably should though, it just becomes confusing otherwise.
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always thought that was kind of silly, it's not like things have a single name that should be invariant across all languages
it is, but thats whats been going on. to be fair we did kind of invade them and kill most of them and force the survivors to move to ****ty reservations with ****ty casinos. so its only fair we use their names for things.
Also take thread derail about naming conventions and Native Americans in new topic please
blame lorric for being ignorant about murica
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Also take thread derail about naming conventions and Native Americans in new topic please
Well I've got what I was looking for now I guess.
Very surprised by it.
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I love the alarmism surrounding hydraulic fracking. Honestly, I don't even want to go through a boilerplate rebuttal of common complaints; I have neither the eons required, nor the desire to indulge those who can't be bothered to do a little homework in the internet age.
On-topic, the radioactive contaminant is naturally-occurring radium, somehow concentrated in this effluent. Without question, this isn't something that should be getting into natural watersheds. Regulations definitely need to be tightened up, and those responsible for this dumping (whoever they may be) should be brought to task. That said, listening to the discussion here even, you'd think the drilling companies are some Captain Planet-esque ecovillains that are deliberately dropping radioisotopes into wastewater and cacklingly poisoning rivers and creeks.
RTFM
Edit: congrats FlamingMamba on discovering Reddit.
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I love the alarmism surrounding hydraulic fracking. Honestly, I don't even want to go through a boilerplate rebuttal of common complaints; I have neither the eons required, nor the desire to indulge those who can't be bothered to do a little homework in the internet age.
On-topic, the radioactive contaminant is naturally-occurring radium, somehow concentrated in this effluent. Without question, this isn't something that should be getting into natural watersheds. Regulations definitely need to be tightened up, and those responsible for this dumping (whoever they may be) should be brought to task. That said, listening to the discussion here even, you'd think the drilling companies are some Captain Planet-esque ecovillains that are deliberately dropping radioisotopes into wastewater and cacklingly poisoning rivers and creeks.
RTFM
Edit: congrats FlamingMamba on discovering Reddit.
ho hum dum bash oil bash hum dummity
I'm noticing a lack of alarmism in this thread. I see a call for oversight, enforcement of regulations and accountability. And I really don't see anything extreme or out there at that. I admit I am suspicious of big oil/ public businesses, but I don't see any real bashing against fracking companies apart from what's listed above in regards to the OP and my article on lack of data given to first responders. That article is from June and companies in Ohio might now have to comply with federal regulations on hazards.
and clarification on what I said earlier, because what I said was a indeed a vague sweeping generalization and my tone suggested an exaggeration of facts. My bias crept though, and for that I apologize. I do not think every fracking company is trying to poision emergency personnel. This is mostly likely a result of a few bad apples, I think you know the phrase. Companies that do withhold hazard information should be forced to comply. I have read only several (2-3) articles referring to that situation.
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Accidental double post. If this could be deleted, great
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ho hum dum bash oil bash hum dummity
WHAT!?
.....I need to choose my next words with exceptional care, or as the saying goes, they may be my last. Suffice it so say, I am *extremely* irritated at this little comment.
If I came across as bashing oil companies, then you have NO idea who I am and what I'm around. The "love" comment was purely sarcastic, and to clarify that statement and add some context, I am very weary of the half-informed anti-oil circlejerks that often surround fracking news.
To clarify my own credentials here, I'm a bachelor's-level chemical engineer, my father is a geologist for a major oil company with a new specialization in so-called "unconventional hydrocarbons". In the months since my graduation, I've read several industry publications, often discussing unconventional technology/challenges and attended industry conferences, in addition to getting briefings on the state of the technology from my dad.
Yes, I'm annoyed. Possibly a bit less so at this particular moment because I've just had dinner, but I'm still annoyed at the level of discourse on this topic. HLP, as is to be expected, is a good bit better than other media w.r.t. discussion quality- I'll retract my statement inferentially dragging HLP into the realm of the circle-jerkers. However, this does not change the fact that the discussion everywhere else is typically half-informed or outright false anti-oil bull****.
Nowhere on mass media outlets do you hear what the true potential of shale oil is. Nobody seems to really be mentioning the fact that the US could realistically be a NET EXPORTER of hydrocarbons by the end of the decade, or anything else that incredible fact may entail. No, let's all focus on the tap water that we can set on fire, never mind that such tap water was usually pre-contaminated or was contaminated by faulty well casing, which is an entirely different thing than the fracturing itself.
Near as I am aware, there are ZERO known cases of the actual fractures intruding into the water table. Why? Because, as it so happens, the hydrocarbon-containing source rocks are tens of thousands of feet below any water table. BUT BUT BUT THAT MATT DAMON MOVIE SAID FRACKING WAS BAD. Yeah and I don't care; come talk to me when you actually know how fracking works.
I know by this point I probably come off as a "big oil shill" or some****, but I don't want to give the wrong impression. I re-iterate my calls for strengthened, possibly universal regulations, but I would call to do so in a balanced fashion; the US is sitting on one of the greatest hydrocarbon plays in the present era, but it won't be worth a thing if we poison our countryside.
Rant over. Unless somebody provokes me again.
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ho hum dum bash oil bash hum dummity
This wasn't me saying you were bashing oil. This was me portraying myself as an oil basher
I would also like to like to apologize. I was antagonistic and I shouldn't have been.
I am mistrustful but I am aware that the US could become a net exporter. And that the gas we could extract is cleaner to use than coal.
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This wasn't me saying you were bashing oil. This was me portraying myself as an oil basher
Gosh now I feel like a fool. My apologies for interpreting that in bad faith.
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Err and I made an edit and added the last two sentences. Didn't realize you'd posted
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What the ****? It's like reasonable adults are posting here. Am I on the right boards?
Nah but seriously, it's not that I expect intentional malice from the oil companies, it's just that I don't expect "regulations tightened up" and "those responsible for this dumping brought to task" to happen. :/
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BUT BUT BUT THAT MATT DAMON MOVIE SAID FRACKING WAS BAD. Yeah and I don't care; come talk to me when you actually know how fracking works.
I know by this point I probably come off as a "big oil shill" or some****, but I don't want to give the wrong impression. I re-iterate my calls for strengthened, possibly universal regulations, but I would call to do so in a balanced fashion; the US is sitting on one of the greatest hydrocarbon plays in the present era, but it won't be worth a thing if we poison our countryside.
Rant over. Unless somebody provokes me again.
Incidentally, I do know how fracking works and I enforce environmental law for a living.
The trouble with hydraulic fracturing is it is a very unproven technique in terms of unintended consequences - like all new technologies, there are some major potential issues. I have to admit, the radon one is new on me but it makes sense. Elevated chlorides and bromides are commonly associated with deep groundwater and are to be expected. None of that should be discharged back to a receiving environment.
I have some major concerns about fracking; I realize the potential of shale gas and shale hydrocarbons, but there are serious and unaddressed concerns about frac-outs in shallower formations when fracking is done incorrectly; there are places in Canada and the US where groundwater contamination is well documented near fracking sites.
In general, I think much stricter regulation of the industry across North America is required, but unfortunately it seems both the American and Canadian governments are content to respond to the issue retroactively instead of proactively, and that concerns me greatly. In my experience, large companies will do precisely what is required of them within the law (most of the time) and little more; relying on them to determine the environmental and human health risks is like letting the fox stand guard in the henhouse while you go for coffee.
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I don't expect "regulations tightened up" and "those responsible for this dumping brought to task" to happen. :/
The EPA has pretty good legislation for dealing with water contamination and some fairly progressive limits; if they can prove the discharge is in violation of those, I think you can expect some pretty large penalties, nevermind the State itself.
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(Stuff I liked)
Thank you. All valid points.
I was ...a bit agitated when I hammered out my previous response, so I definitely didn't surprise myself by not being as thorough and detached as I prefer to be.
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In general, I think much stricter regulation of the industry across North America is required, but unfortunately it seems both the American and Canadian governments are content to respond to the issue retroactively instead of proactively, and that concerns me greatly. In my experience, large companies will do precisely what is required of them within the law (most of the time) and little more; relying on them to determine the environmental and human health risks is like letting the fox stand guard in the henhouse while you go for coffee.
The key here is "most of the time". Apperently, paying the fines you get for polluting the enviroment is apperently less expensive then paying for the measures to prevent the enviroment in the first place.
They are also planning to do shale gas extraction in The Netherlands, which is a completely different enviroment (both ... enviromentally and politically). It would be interesting to see where that goes. Considering the dense population of this country, any pollution will have catastrophic consequences. As a result, the scrutiny is much tighter.
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Yes I think that the consensus here is something ahhh consensual :D. I do like that mankind finds and exploits new discoveries and new inventions, just as long as we are as careful as we can be while keeping in mind that becoming too careful can make a real dent on further discoveries and so on - it's a "slippery slope" that must be walked with both tensions and dangers in scope.
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it's a "slippery slope"
Not if we keep the oil spills in check!
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This is a big fracking problem we have here.
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Looks like we are having a spill of puns here.
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Yes, it's a slick slope.