Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on March 20, 2014, 12:37:52 pm
-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26669967
Fred Phelps is dead...
e: Normally I would spare a thought for his family, and I will on this occasion, though in this case it is to regret that they remain alive.
-
They're barred from the UK :pimp:
He attended a US military academy? :lol:
-
I don't suppose we can deploy a couple of divisions worth of troops to protest when they contaminate the ground with his corpse?
-
don't bother. let him rot alone.
-
Damnit, Flipside, you beat me to it. I had a killer thread title all picked out and everything.
-
Damnit, Flipside, you beat me to it. I had a killer thread title all picked out and everything.
Don't hold out on us!
-
Damnit, Flipside, you beat me to it. I had a killer thread title all picked out and everything.
Sorry :D
I'm almost angry at him for actually making me happy by dying, it feels kind of wrong to celebrate ANY death, and yet I can find no shame in myself for being pleased about this.
-
Well, it's about time. Without him, I don't think WBC will last long. I hope that in the next world, denizens of Heaven can freely visit hell (and if it's not the case normally, I hope He'll turn a blind eye in that case). Quite a few troopers will have a lot to discuss with him... :) I don't think Lucifer himself could think of a better torment whatever those guys will inflict on him.
-
Even though I'm an hardcore atheist myself, I still think celebrating somebody else's death is dumb and absolutely not necessary. I can't think of any scenario where this would be acceptable.
Seriously, guys, this is a forum thread, not a random Facebook post. :rolleyes:
-
Good ****ing riddance.
-
Celebrating someone's death? No. Thrilled that they are no longer around to plague the world with complete and utter bull****? Absolutely.
-
Perhaps people are curious why this guy sought to make his life's work of being a piece of **** legitimate. But, i think most wouldn't want to dive inside this guy's head if here were still alive to find out. Let alone even talk to members of his family.
-
Well, his family is what WBC is mostly composed of. So I suppose you're right about this. Nobody wanted to talk to them before, and that's not gonna change.
Even though I'm an hardcore atheist myself, I still think celebrating somebody else's death is dumb and absolutely not necessary. I can't think of any scenario where this would be acceptable.
Seriously, guys, this is a forum thread, not a random Facebook post. :rolleyes:
Normally, I don't "celebrate" deaths of other humans. However, there's a certain category that live only to make the world a worse place. Militant extremists of all sorts, psychopathic murderers and people who can be, by any reasonable standard, objectively called evil. Really, I can think of nothing good that came from that guy, and I'm glad he's finally gone. It's not that he died, it's just that he's not here to hurt dead soldiers' families, nor anyone else (the list is long) anymore. And this is a very good thing.
-
Even though I'm an hardcore atheist myself, I still think celebrating somebody else's death is dumb and absolutely not necessary. I can't think of any scenario where this would be acceptable.
Seriously, guys, this is a forum thread, not a random Facebook post. :rolleyes:
Funny enough, I can, and I think that this particular person fits the bill quite nicely for the 'exception to the rule'.
-
"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."
-
* waits for fred phelps beau to come out and announce that he was his homosexual lover. *
-
am I allowed to celebrate this death?
-
All ye folks celebrating his death are terrible and should know better. Nope, Can't keep a straight face. =P
In all seriousness, This guy does not deserve any recognition whatsoever, even in death. He should simply pass into the annals of oblivion. Damnatio memoriae.
-
No doubt he will get tons of Rot in Pieces messages.
-
he should be remembered as one of the greatest catalysts of change in history, the gay rights movement could never have gotten as far as it did in the last decade without his churches actions. and as an atheist, I have to tip my hat to them as being the single greatest, most convincing argument against religion in existence by a wide margin.
-
I find it hilariously ironic that this guy actually might go down as the single biggest contributor to the advancement of gay and lesbian rights in the US. People are so put off by this moron and his followers that it pushed many of those who were on the fence concerning gay and lesbian rights over to openly supporting them.
While I won't be celebrating his death I will however breath a sigh of relief that this asshole can no longer spew his messages of hate upon the world. Now if only his family will scatter to the four winds with his passing and quietly disappear from the public eye.
-
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. etc, etc.
-
A friend of mine made a great point: I really, really hope there are people waving signs outside his funeral.
-
yeah, I think they are not the first to think that.
-
I wonder what kind of sign they will be waving in his funeral. One thing for sure, I DO NOT want to be there.
-
In the words of Richard Stallman: "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone"
-
I find it hilariously ironic that this guy actually might go down as the single biggest contributor to the advancement of gay and lesbian rights in the US. People are so put off by this moron and his followers that it pushed many of those who were on the fence concerning gay and lesbian rights over to openly supporting them.
I remember once reading the views of someone who was convinced that Phelps was actually a deep-cover liberal who was actually campaigning for gay rights but had realised that the best way to do that would be to discredit everyone against gay rights by making them look like like the bunch of homophobic wankers WBC appear to be.
I don't believe it personally. I think he really was as big a wanker as he appeared to be. But I do disagree with those who feel he didn't deliberately contribute anything to the world while he was here. Believe it or not, at one point Fred Phelps was an award-winning civil rights lawyer (http://cjonline.com/indepth/phelps/stories/080394_phelps17.shtml). Apparently he strongly defended black people on the grounds that no one gets to choose the colour of their skin. Pity he didn't believe the same thing about sexuality or weird as it might seem, today we might instead be sad over the death of one of the most crusading gay rights lawyers.
-
Thing is, I know people who the WBC would have celebrated the death of purely because of their sexuality, so whilst I don't outright celebrate the death of Phelps, since that would be sinking down to his level, I do genuinely believe that America has been made a better place by the loss of his hatred.
I'd even say that he is allowed to believe anything he likes, that's Freedom of Speech, but his method of displaying that belief, to deliberately offend and insult other people at their most vulnerable is a high-contrast version of the entire problem with much of the World.
That's kind of why I'm against the idea of celebrating at his Funeral, because it would be sinking to his level, but that doesn't mean I feel any compassion for him or his family whatsoever.
-
To quote the ever classy George Takei:
I take no solace or joy in this man's passing. We will not dance upon his grave, nor stand vigil at his funeral holding "God Hates Freds" signs, tempting as it may be.
He was a tormented soul, who tormented so many. Hate never wins out in the end. It instead goes always to its lonely, dusty end.
-
A friend of mine made a great point: I really, really hope there are people waving signs outside his funeral.
"great point"? Sorry I don't agree at all.
-
It's going to happen anyway (although, thanks to the WBC, there are now laws preventing this).
-
If I were going to wave any sign outside his funeral, it would be more along the lines of "God loves all" than some petty tit-for-tat.
-
It's going to happen anyway (although, thanks to the WBC, there are now laws preventing this).
From what I understand, only if he is buried in a national cemetery.
-
In the words of Richard Stallman: "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone"
Good attitude. I like that.
-
In the words of Richard Stallman: "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone"
Good attitude. I like that.
That's a good way of putting it.
WBC has been a disgrace to the basic principles that Christianity is supposed to stand for. No one could reasonably claim that they've accomplished anything good except by accident. I hope this is the beginning of the end for that nonsense.
If I were going to wave any sign outside his funeral, it would be more along the lines of "God loves all" than some petty tit-for-tat.
That's the spirit :yes:
-
Well, since when Christianity taught people to embrace hatred? I wonder what got that SOB started with that sort of thing, it is just crazy. Imagine having the Scarlet Crusade in real life.
-
"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."
"I did not attend his funeral; but I wrote a nice letter saying I approved of it."
(http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-iceburn.gif)
-
Damnit, Flipside, you beat me to it. I had a killer thread title all picked out and everything.
Don't hold out on us!
"One can only hope that some of the people who actually *do* believe in Hell end up in it."
Actually, I saw a post somewhere suggesting the best way of commemorating the death of Mr. Phelps would be to line the streets around the cemetery with people saying nothing, but holding signs that simple say "God loves everyone." Along the lines of PH's suggestion.
To those that believe they are taking the high road by refusing to celebrate a death, allow me to say: there are some people whose existence has brought so much misery, pain, and suffering to others that their passing from this Earth is indeed a cause for celebration, much as I would celebrate the end polio, HIV, or any other source of suffering. Phelps and his ilk belong firmly in that category.
God may love everyone, but I don't explicitly believe in God, nor am I so magnanimous. Good riddance to trash.
-
There's no high road in death MP. I'm glad he's not here anymore but to actually go to the streets with billboards is silly and unjustified IMHO. It is my opinion, and I don't really care if others feel different and go do that kind of stuff. If it rocks their boats go ahead (it's not even as if they are showing Phelps anything, he's dead he won't see anything at all).
-
I think that contrary to popular belief, life is not the highest value. It's pretty high up on the list, but there are situations where death is preferable. Either for the sake of oneself, or for the sake of others. People fear death, sure, but in the end, it's just a part of life. Different people handle it differently, but IMO, it's best to accept that it happens, because it does, to everyone, sooner or later. Life is just another thing a person has, important, but not the most important one. There's a whole lot more to living that just not dying.
Normally, death, even if wanted by the deceased, is a sad occurrence, because it means this person is gone from this world, and noone will ever see that person again. Any loss, especially one permanent like that, is very sad. In that case, though, the world has permanently shed one heck of a millstone around it's neck. There's not much of a loss in that case. How sad a death is is inversely proportional to how valuable a person was in life, and I'd say there wasn't a whole lot of value in that guy. While he might have done some positive things regarding minority rights, these are far outweighed by everything WBC has done.
I won't celebrate his death, but because there's little to celebrate. If he changed his views, it'd be worth celebrating, but he died a person as horrible as he was for a long time. A protest at his funeral would be nice as a way to demonstrate the old "Don't do unto others what you don't want done to yourself" rule to the rest of WBC, but nothing more. Perhaps also a chance to catch them on hypocrisy when they complain. I'm a firm believer in that if you do something to another person, you're also giving them implicit permission to do the same to you.
-
There totally is a high road for celebrating/commemorating his passing and the name of that road is "Phelps in the Afterlife" slash fiction and it's really more of a superhighway.
-
A friend of mine made a great point: I really, really hope there are people waving signs outside his funeral.
"great point"? Sorry I don't agree at all.
Perhaps, but I'm not feeling quite so magnanimous as the great Mr. Takei over this. Call it a baser instinct, but some mother****ers just deserve a bat upside the head, whether literally or metaphorically.
-
What's the ****ing point? Phelps and his church weren't just used to being hated, they thrived on it. It was their business model, their political validation, the cornerstone of their faith. He and his kin saw the world entirely in shades of hate, and if you really cared about rebuking that you'd leave it to starve away.
-
Other than the slash fiction, one good thing that has come from Fred Phelps is this encouraging statement (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/03/21/nate-phelps-issues-public-statement-after-his-fathers-death/) from his (estranged) son.
-
Yeah, gotta give it to him, he actually did some good by giving people someone to rally against. Doesn't make him any less of a prick, though, and it's certainly not something he should be thanked for. Good thing his son didn't take after him. WBC will soon die a natural death, just like him, and I just hope we won't forget what intolerance and bigotry can lead to after they're gone. In this case, it's about sexual minorities, but it could happen to any of them.
Also, people are talking about LGBT, but why nobody mentions other minorities? There are many sexual "deviations" (the same category homosexuality fell into not so long ago), of which only two are actually problematic: zoophilia and pedophilia. Instead of adding an ever-increasing string of letters to "LGBT" (it used to be "Gays and lesbians", then LGB, then LGBT...) maybe we should start talking about rights for sexual minorities in general.
-
To those that believe they are taking the high road by refusing to celebrate a death, allow me to say: there are some people whose existence has brought so much misery, pain, and suffering to others that their passing from this Earth is indeed a cause for celebration, much as I would celebrate the end polio, HIV, or any other source of suffering. Phelps and his ilk belong firmly in that category.
He also was a black civil rights campaigner in Kansas in the 1960 and 1970's. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to stand up for black civil rights in the deep south during the 60's but I very much doubt it was easy. If you're going to try to claim that the world would have been better off without him, it's worth remembering that at one point he might have been a decent man.
-
At one point, yes. But it is less important who he was back then, compared to who he had become now. If anything, we (well, those who were alive at the time, that is :) ) should've been grieving when he turned from civil right activist into a WBC nut. The world would've probably been better off without most of his life after the 70s, and what he did as a civil right activist was quickly overshadowed by what he did in WBC. Just as it's possible to redeem bad deeds with the good, it's certainly possible to overshadow good deeds with the bad, which is what he have done. While it might be debatable if it'd be better if he never existed, the world is certainly better off with him gone now.
-
Is it? WBC arguably advances gay rights by being so completely indefensible.
-
To those that believe they are taking the high road by refusing to celebrate a death, allow me to say: there are some people whose existence has brought so much misery, pain, and suffering to others that their passing from this Earth is indeed a cause for celebration, much as I would celebrate the end polio, HIV, or any other source of suffering. Phelps and his ilk belong firmly in that category.
He also was a black civil rights campaigner in Kansas in the 1960 and 1970's. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to stand up for black civil rights in the deep south during the 60's but I very much doubt it was easy. If you're going to try to claim that the world would have been better off without him, it's worth remembering that at one point he might have been a decent man.
Let me start off by agreeing with this post.
Let me continue by mentioning that Kansas is not "the deep south". It's the geographic center of both the United States and the entire North American continent.
-
You guys are all super tolerant of all religions and non religion; yet despise this guy and his family for their beliefs, right or wrong. Cant pick and choose.
-
We're intolerant of intolerance. If you don't see why this particular brand of beliefs is exempt from that super tolerance then this isn't the thread for you.
-
I despise his beliefs on homosexuality, but that is not why I despised him. I despised him because of the way he acted on his beliefs, which was incredibly hurtful to a group of people who are already having a difficult enough time as it is.
-
Everyone dies, god's vindiction is clumsy.
-
No matter what he believed about homosexuals, that doesn't give him the right to protest at funerals. That has **** all to do with his beliefs and everything to do with attention whoring.
-
It's going to happen anyway (although, thanks to the WBC, there are now laws preventing this).
From what I understand, only if he is buried in a national cemetery.
Actually, as a direct response to the tactics of WBC, some states (including mine) have passed laws restricting funeral protests. They can still protest, but are restricted as to time and distance from the funeral procession.
Well, since when Christianity taught people to embrace hatred?
Exactly; this man was not a Christian even if he believed he was - I think he may be surprised when Jesus says "I do not know you." The Bible, especially the New Testament, teaches that God loves everyone, including people who practice homosexuality, those who lust or covet or lie or steal or murder or any greater or lesser sin. And yes, even Fred Phelps. We are all sinners, but God loves us all anyway, even those who do not believe in him or who profane His name. "Love the sinner; hate the sin." But it also teaches that those who intentionally lead people astray in God's name, such as with a message of hatred and intolerance under the guise of "Christianity," will be judged especially harshly after their worldly death. His actions and hypocrisy give true Christianity a bad rep, because many, many people have not been taught the difference.
-
You guys are all super tolerant of all religions and non religion; yet despise this guy and his family for their beliefs, right or wrong. Cant pick and choose.
Even if the first sentence were true, the second certainly isn't.
-
To those that believe they are taking the high road by refusing to celebrate a death, allow me to say: there are some people whose existence has brought so much misery, pain, and suffering to others that their passing from this Earth is indeed a cause for celebration, much as I would celebrate the end polio, HIV, or any other source of suffering. Phelps and his ilk belong firmly in that category.
He also was a black civil rights campaigner in Kansas in the 1960 and 1970's. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to stand up for black civil rights in the deep south during the 60's but I very much doubt it was easy. If you're going to try to claim that the world would have been better off without him, it's worth remembering that at one point he might have been a decent man.
One set of good deeds does not wipe away decades of ill. He was also disbarred for unethical conduct toward witnesses by abusing his power as an officer of the court. The fact that he ended up briefly on the right side of history before launching a crusade on the wrong does not absolve him.
Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler (Godwin'd!) also did some good deeds in their own countries; yet, are you prepared to argue the world would not have been better off without them?
It's also worth pointing out that I was not saying the world would have necessarily been better off without Phelps in my earlier post (though that is a premise I agree with, at least post-1980), but rather that the passing of anything or anyone who causes so much suffering to so many IS a cause for celebration.
-
Sorry HLP. As much as I'd like to do the right thing, I'm celebrating his death. Hopefully, the rest of his family realizes that their beliefs are wrong like his granddaughters (aka the Good Westboros).
Reference:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/10/29/241643924/we-hurt-a-lot-of-people-westboro-pastors-granddaughter-says
-
I don't think any comparison to Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot is apt in any meaningful way, even if in hyperbole. Yes, that guy was an annoyance, but has he killed anyone? Is he a mass murderer? Then why are we comparing him with people directly responsible for the deaths of millions and dozens of millions of people and much much greater suffering than those numbers imply?
-
One set of good deeds does not wipe away decades of ill. He was also disbarred for unethical conduct toward witnesses by abusing his power as an officer of the court. The fact that he ended up briefly on the right side of history before launching a crusade on the wrong does not absolve him.
Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler (Godwin'd!) also did some good deeds in their own countries; yet, are you prepared to argue the world would not have been better off without them?
It's also worth pointing out that I was not saying the world would have necessarily been better off without Phelps in my earlier post (though that is a premise I agree with, at least post-1980), but rather that the passing of anything or anyone who causes so much suffering to so many IS a cause for celebration.
As others have also pointed out, even if he wanted to do harm, Phelps probably actually did more good for the LGBT community than harm. He was such a cartoonish villain that he made everyone else who was anti-gay look like fools too.
-
but rather that the passing of anything or anyone who causes so much suffering to so many IS a cause for celebration.
I feel like some people aren't reading that component of my last post.
-
I'm making the point that without Phelps if the WBC actually fades away, it's actually a bad thing for the LGBT community.
-
I don't think the WBC will fade away, they were among the first of the 'Shock Jocks', using controversy to gain attention, and they bought about an entire generation of people that realized that if you said, did or presented really obnoxious or controversial things, the Media would give you more airtime than you could dream of.
There's a whole host of people who now use that technique as an income, from people who are obvious about it, like Jerry Springer to more insidious ones who actually manage to convince themselves that they are doing it to promote something other than their own self-interest.
Even if the WBC faded away, you can be certain that another attention whore would notice the gap in the market and leap into it.
-
Apparently there was a power move inside the WBC that led to Fred getting excommunicated and then he went on a hunger strike that led to his health failing, so they are very much still active.
And as for all of the people who are being very vocal about not celebrating his death, I'm glad his death has given you another chance to feel superior about yourself.
-
Yes, because acting in a morally superior way is for pussies...
-
I for one, find not being happy about Phelps being dead morally inferior. :) There's nothing superior about showing any sort of respect to someone like that. I've long since realized that peace and love are fine, but if you actually do "turn the other cheek", in most cases you'd simply be beaten to death. Because people who'd hit you in first place are dumb like that. I respect those that stick by that belief, but I consider my philosophy somewhat more practical. There's nothing noble in getting robbed, grieving for monsters or meekly complying with bullies. Indeed, all of those things make the world worse. What is noble, and morally superior, is standing up to evil. I'm sure that people that Phelps hurt are happy about his death. If you ask me, I am, and always was, with those people, not with Phelps or his relatives. He was evil, if they grieve for him, then they are alone and they brought it on themselves.
-
It's not about respect for them though, is it? It's about showing respect for yourself. If you prove that you are capable of sinking just as low as they did, then you forsake any claim you had of being above them intellectually or morally, by emulating them you become them, only on the opposite end of the same see-saw.
The whole reason not to behave as they did is to prove to them how alone they truly are, they might care that a soldier dies because it gives them an opportunity to spew their hatred, but if no-one cares that a member of their family dies enough to, even after all they've done, react in the same way, it serves as an abject lesson that they achieved nothing with their hatred. If you give in and copy them, you justify what they did.
e: And to clarify, the biggest compliment people could pay the Phelps family is to behave as they did, after all those years of saying how disgusting, inhumane and insensitive their behaviour was, at the first opportunity to behave in precisely the same disgusting way it is grabbed with both hands. After all those attempts to silence and deter them from doing it, to leap at the opportunity only justifies what they did.
-
You're conflating celebration at his death with celebration that he's gone. Those are not remotely the same thing.
-
I'm talking about those who wish to go celebrate at his funeral. You only have to read the first post in the thread to understand my position on the WBC's beliefs.
I think only one person on here has suggested that we shouldn't be pleased he is gone, if it's about that one post, then I'm not even sure who the 'all those people' that Bobboau is referring to actually are in the first place.
-
It would only really be getting down to their level if celebrations on his funeral were about spreading irrational hatred. If they were about "triumph" of tolerance, that's another matter. It's not like those people don't care a member of their family died, they do care and are glad that it happened. But not because they hated him, because he hated them, and hurt a whole lot of them. This is by no means emulating what WBC did, but might be just close enough to give them a taste of their own medicine. But revenge should not be the main point. Those celebrations are not primarily for WBC, but for people hurt by them. This is the vital difference that separates them from WBC.
That said, the way I see it, it wasn't really any sort of triumph, it was just a natural death of an evil man. So I'm happy there's one evil moron less in the world, but I won't be throwing a party.
Also, if you're into it, guess what's the best way of celebrating Phelps' death as a triumph of tolerance and love? Navy-style, of course: http://terminallance.com/2014/03/21/terminal-lance-rot-in-hell-fred-phelps/ :) If anyone's got a good reason to celebrate on his death, then soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen worldwide are those people. Especially sailors. :)
-
For me, I like the distinction some people have made between being happy that the man is not going to be causing any more problems, and being happy he is dead. If you're the former, you don't have to be the latter as well. And that's how I feel. I would be the same if he declared he saw the error of his ways, or stepped away from the WBC due to stress, or any one of the million and one other reasons there could have been besides death for him to stop. I'm not happy he is dead, and would rather he had changed his ways in life.
Perhaps with the proverbial head now off the snake, and seeing the reaction his death has had around the World, other members of the WBC will reconsider the path they are walking in life.