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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 07:10:17 pm

Title: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 07:10:17 pm
Just a curiousity.... How many Colossus ships do you think it would take to take down a single undamaged Sathanas class juggernaut. Anyone who made it to mission eight knows what I mean.

I think it would take at least twelve, including the 2880 fighters on board (if they all launch, not likely) . Who knows exactly how many fighters that monster has.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Polpolion on August 26, 2007, 07:11:14 pm
Just one if command knows how to use it.

I had a mini campaign idea a while back about a Sathanas that was found in Ross 128, command trapped it, and then destroyed it with only fighters and RBCs. It was focused in stages around the Sathanas, each stage had a mission and part of the Sathanas you had to eliminate. You started by luring it's fighter compliment into a whole bunch of sentry guns and you destroyed them, then you disabled the Sathanas and take out some subsystems, then you taek out all of it's turrets, then you got to sit back for about an hour while a single RBC took it out.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 07:30:11 pm
I did say undamaged didn't I? True, you could launch fighters ahead of time and slowly whittle it down, but that is not the point. Just a straight encounter, like the mission with the first Sathanas, but undamaged.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Polpolion on August 26, 2007, 07:38:58 pm
What is the least effective way to kill a Sathanas?


The way you're asking about. You don't just throw ships at the Sathanas.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Kie99 on August 26, 2007, 07:47:49 pm
Just a curiousity.... How many Colossus ships do you think it would take to take down a single undamaged Sathanas class juggernaut. Anyone who made it to mission eight knows what I mean.

I think it would take at least twelve, including the 2880 fighters on board (if they all launch, not likely) . Who knows exactly how many fighters that monster has.

Mission eight of what?

Anyway, it only takes one Colossus to take down a Sathanas, given that is positions itself intelligently.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 07:57:16 pm
Perhaps I should rephrase. A Sathanas, compared to the Colossus, in both firepower and armor, is superior in every way. It would take only three blasts from an undamaged sathanas to cook a colossus. So in that comparison. How many colossus ships would it take to match the firepower of the Sathanas.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 08:04:21 pm
Your wrong. It takes 25 shots.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 08:11:08 pm
*shrugs* In the mission where you try to make a distraction with the Colossus before you collapse the nodes, I only counted three blasts from the Sathanas.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 08:14:25 pm
It was at like 50 Hull.Also they do 4 damage each IIRC.It might be 8.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Bob-san on August 26, 2007, 08:28:07 pm
To answer your question--two. One will die while the Sathanas is focusing on it.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 08:29:24 pm
You know they both could get behind it and shoot the living **** out of it.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Flipside on August 26, 2007, 08:41:49 pm
In Head-on combat, 2-3 would be needed, from the rear, which is the sensible way to attack a Sathy, one would do the job perfectly well.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 26, 2007, 08:51:50 pm
Depending on deployment, between one and three. If the beams are not overcharged, that number goes up radically.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 08:56:49 pm
Hmm. that I can agree with. In the mission where you destroy the first Sathanas though, three shots took the Colossus from 100 % to like 74%, and thats with only 2 cannons. Attacking it from the front is a bad idea I agree.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on August 26, 2007, 09:06:41 pm
Any thing Transport and up going head on at a Sathanas (that is cannon) Will most certainty die.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 09:13:53 pm
Unless the GTVA somehow completes a juggernaught class ship. No matter how strong the Colossus was, it was still signifagantly weaker then the Sathanas. Though, if you  took the Colossus, and increased the armor plating at least five times over, It might have a chance head on.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 26, 2007, 09:20:38 pm
If the Colossus had all its beams on a single facing like the Sathanas does, it would actually significantly outgun the Sath.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Polpolion on August 26, 2007, 09:24:09 pm
Yeah. Stupid evenly spread firing arcs. :D
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 26, 2007, 09:28:25 pm
If the GTVA beam cannon has equal strength of a Shivan one. but by numbers... 4 against 8, you would probably be correct.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mars on August 26, 2007, 09:32:58 pm
You seem to have made up your mind already... I don't see a reason to answer your question.

However... it would indeed take one intelligently implemented collie
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 05:16:13 am
Waths will all this armor rubbish? Teh Collie and Sath have the same ammount of HP IIRC.
The ONLY advantage a Sath has are better beam cannons. Collie has more of them, but they are crappy.


1 Collie can kill a Sath if positioned properly. Basicly stick 10 feet from the sath at all times so it can't turn wile you blast it to bits with your broadsides.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 27, 2007, 06:24:09 am
The Sath can turn, you know.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Kie99 on August 27, 2007, 07:01:55 am
The Sath can turn, you know.

Reading is good.

1 Collie can kill a Sath if positioned properly. Basicly stick 10 feet from the sath at all times so it can't turn wile you blast it to bits with your broadsides.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 27, 2007, 07:13:01 am
Who said I could read?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 07:51:12 am
point... :lol:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Bob-san on August 27, 2007, 12:41:56 pm
If both start out of range in broadside position, I found that the Sathanas will still win. It turns slowly, but by the time they're in range, it has most firepower to bear on the Colossus.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 27, 2007, 12:48:08 pm
Depends on the distance...what if they're separated by 7 clicks of vacuum at the beginning of the battle? The Sathanas could definitely turn...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 01:24:08 pm
Well, depends who is attacking whom...If a Collie was to attack a Sath the smart thingto do would be to jump in as close as possible (no matter how risky)
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Agent_Koopa on August 27, 2007, 02:33:16 pm
What is the least effective way to kill a Sathanas?


The way you're asking about. You don't just throw ships at the Sathanas.

I'm sorry! I'm so sorry!

(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/289/sathanaspv7.png)
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Sarafan on August 27, 2007, 02:37:27 pm
What is the least effective way to kill a Sathanas?


The way you're asking about. You don't just throw ships at the Sathanas.

I'm sorry! I'm so sorry!

(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/289/sathanaspv7.png)

I hope you die for that. :blah:

 :lol:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Bob-san on August 27, 2007, 02:38:30 pm
I'd say put the Colossus somewhere behind the Sathanas. The only problem I found with this, with logic, is that another Sathanas could jump in behind the Colossus. That's instant death--a Colossus trapped between two Sathanas. They'd be fried by the frontal barrage if they stay and they'd collide with the forward Sathanas if they try to jump. Anyways--the GTVA would probably jump the Colossus in, in a situation where they want to destroy it, in the rear. The GTVA isn't a tactical genius, but they're still not stupid.

Anyways--bombers and a Colossus is definitely the best way to kill a Sathanas. You need bombers to be precise and the Colossus to start the hurtin'.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2007, 02:48:20 pm
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/289/sathanaspv7.png)

What if we make fighterpults? You know...like cat-a-pults? but insted of cats we hurl fighters wiht lots of ordinance on it? Sorta like advanced kamikaze missiles! :lol:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 27, 2007, 05:46:46 pm
Or even better. Modify an Ursa to carry a Meson bomb, and double the engines. Sling that at a Sathy and see what happens.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Kie99 on August 27, 2007, 05:55:21 pm
Or even better. Modify an Ursa to carry a Meson bomb. Sling that at a Sathy and see what happens.

A Meson Bomb is much, much bigger than an Ursa.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Talhoe on August 27, 2007, 06:01:45 pm
Then just latch 4 Ursas to each side of a Meson bomb, and link the engines :D
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 27, 2007, 06:02:27 pm
Or even better. Modify an Ursa to carry a Meson bomb, and double the engines. Sling that at a Sathy and see what happens.

It can be done afterall. The Satis is well defended and has good engines.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Flipside on August 27, 2007, 06:11:05 pm
What is the least effective way to kill a Sathanas?


The way you're asking about. You don't just throw ships at the Sathanas.

I'm sorry! I'm so sorry!

(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/289/sathanaspv7.png)

:lol:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Polpolion on August 27, 2007, 07:03:35 pm
Or even better. Modify an Ursa to carry a Meson bomb. Sling that at a Sathy and see what happens.

A Meson Bomb is much, much bigger than an Ursa.

Or even better. Modify an Ursa to carry a Meson bomb. Sling that at a Sathy and see what happens.

A Meson Bomb is much, much bigger than an Ursa.

IIRC the meson Bomb is that little circle in the middle of the model. Everything else is the carrier so it can be transported via triton.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Excalibur on August 27, 2007, 07:30:05 pm
I'd say put the Colossus somewhere behind the Sathanas. The only problem I found with this, with logic, is that another Sathanas could jump in behind the Colossus. That's instant death--a Colossus trapped between two Sathanas. They'd be fried by the frontal barrage if they stay and they'd collide with the forward Sathanas if they try to jump. Anyways--the GTVA would probably jump the Colossus in, in a situation where they want to destroy it, in the rear. The GTVA isn't a tactical genius, but they're still not stupid.

Anyways--bombers and a Colossus is definitely the best way to kill a Sathanas. You need bombers to be precise and the Colossus to start the hurtin'.


Not if the Collie's broadside was facing the engine of the first Sath and then the second Sath jumped in behind it.

Would a kamikaze Collie do the job?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Kie99 on August 27, 2007, 07:51:32 pm
I'd say put the Colossus somewhere behind the Sathanas. The only problem I found with this, with logic, is that another Sathanas could jump in behind the Colossus. That's instant death--a Colossus trapped between two Sathanas. They'd be fried by the frontal barrage if they stay and they'd collide with the forward Sathanas if they try to jump. Anyways--the GTVA would probably jump the Colossus in, in a situation where they want to destroy it, in the rear. The GTVA isn't a tactical genius, but they're still not stupid.

Anyways--bombers and a Colossus is definitely the best way to kill a Sathanas. You need bombers to be precise and the Colossus to start the hurtin'.


Not if the Collie's broadside was facing the engine of the first Sath and then the second Sath jumped in behind it.

Would a kamikaze Collie do the job?

Sathanas has about six engines.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 27, 2007, 09:41:40 pm
Colossus wins in a broadside as long as it is out of firing reach of the BFReds.  Rear is a no-go, you get destroyed by the giant pieces of debris.  Above it is ok too, but below the LRed can target you.  This is with canon loadout.

Switch the anti-capship beams all to BFReds, TOTALLY different story.  only way for the Colossus to die then is if the Sathanas attacks from DIRECTLY above or below, where only 3 beams can reach (max # of main guns the Colossus can fire is 6, when it broadsides a target slightly above the Colossus).  Head-on might still end in a draw though (stupid oversized pieces of debris   :mad: )

Tested using FRED, 6 Orions in the Sathanas' blindspots take about 2.5-3 minutes to kill, out of the path of exploding debris.  A blockade of Orions should be able to destroy each Sathanas as it exits a subspace node if properly positioned and gets constant supply of reactor fuel (4 minute gap between Sathani is needed if you don't want them to collide with each other when they exit/enter subspace on the exact same spot, such as a jump node).

Nevertheless, each juggernaut was designed for different roles.  The Colossus can take on 6 Orions all at once, any sort of positioning and still win with about ~30% hull integrity left, while the Sathanas can either decimate the 6 Orions in short order or get decimated itself, depending on placement.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mars on August 27, 2007, 10:08:12 pm
Remember that Command was planning on taking down a Sathanas with 3 destroyers, and I'm willing to bet they would have succeeded.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 28, 2007, 06:02:46 am
They would have needed to attack the "weak spots" of the Sathanas, not conventionally.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: -Joshua- on August 28, 2007, 06:38:06 am
I think with the "Weak Spots" they ment the spots with not so much weaponry.

By the way, those 3 destroyers also got bomber support, off-course.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 28, 2007, 01:04:52 pm
Remember that Command was planning on taking down a Sathanas with 3 destroyers, and I'm willing to bet they would have succeeded.

I think that the GTVA was lucky, damn lucky. Those three destroyers would have been reduced to pieces, if not drammatically disabled and/or disarmed by hundreds of Shivan wings.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Bob-san on August 28, 2007, 01:39:01 pm
Well, next point to investigate in Colossus v. Sathanas... Who can get out more fighters and bombers faster? I'd say it's likely the Sathanas, as the Shivans are known to launch in swarms.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 28, 2007, 01:47:14 pm
I think that the GTVA was lucky, damn lucky. Those three destroyers would have been reduced to pieces, if not drammatically disabled and/or disarmed by hundreds of Shivan wings.

How do you know? They never had the chance to go off against the Sath because it decided to go straight for Gamma Drax instead of taking the bait.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 28, 2007, 02:41:46 pm
I think that the GTVA was lucky, damn lucky. Those three destroyers would have been reduced to pieces, if not drammatically disabled and/or disarmed by hundreds of Shivan wings.

How do you know? They never had the chance to go off against the Sath because it decided to go straight for Gamma Drax instead of taking the bait.

1) What if, because of malfunctions and/or subspace effect, one of the destroyers would have jumped in...just in front of the Sathanas?

2) The Sathanas has a LRed. With a meneuver, it can bring a destroyer attacking from the back on range;

3) The Juggernaut would have launched plenties of bombers. If disabled, one of the destroyers would have been a sitting duck...even for the Sathanas;

4) The Shivans would have sortied reinforcements. Was the Beleth in the Nebula?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 02:58:06 pm
1) What if, because of malfunctions and/or subspace effect, one of the destroyers would have jumped in...just in front of the Sathanas?

2) The Sathanas has a LRed. With a meneuver, it can bring a destroyer attacking from the back on range;

3) The Juggernaut would have launched plenties of bombers. If disabled, one of the destroyers would have been a sitting duck...even for the Sathanas;

4) The Shivans would have sortied reinforcements. Was the Beleth in the Nebula?

1) What if, because of malfunctions and/or subspace effect, the Sath jumped in right between 2 destroyers?

2) The Destroyers have beams of their own. Ever heard of taking out hte single offensive beam?

3) The destroyers would have launched plenty of interceptors and bombers. If hte bombers were to disable/disarm the Sathanas it would be a sitting duck. Even for a Heacte.

4) The GTVA would have sortied reinforcements. Tehy had more ship in the nebula.

 :p
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 28, 2007, 03:10:13 pm
1) I don't get your point;

2) No, they'rem dumb;

3) A Juggernaut has a better launch capability. And the Shivans can easily overwhelm their opponents;

4) How you can say that? The Shivans might have sortied the Beleth. And the Urobach;
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 03:15:14 pm
Teh GTVA had more ships in hte nebula. That is a FACT.

Colussus had like 260 fighters or so...I doubt that the Sathanas would have much more in comparison. A Hecate and 2 Hatsies would have around 400 fighters minimum..
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: morriscat on August 28, 2007, 03:29:19 pm
We can talk about firing arcs and positioning all day, but it's really the fighters and bombers that'll decide who wins or loses a fight between a Sath and a Colossus. Both ships are supposed to have enormous fighter complements which are completely absent in the FS2 campaign. If you can negate the impact of the Sathanas' fighter wings, you don't even NEED a Colossus, you could do it with one Orion. You hit the front of the Sathanas with one bomber squadron for the BFReds, one heavy fighter squadron to knock down the flak, and a squadron or two of Perseus or Myrmidons to fly fighter cover to keep your assault force from getting paved by Maras. That leaves the other half of the Orion's fighter complement to keep the bombers off.  You make sure the Strike wing jumps in on the Sathanas at least 2 minutes before the Orion shows up, and it's a pretty fair bet all four BFReds should be down. With a Colossus, it's even easier since the Colossus has a vastly larger fighter wing.

So, for us really to have any idea how it would go down, we need to know three things.
1 : How many fighters a Sath actually carries.
2 : How fast can it launch them.
3 : Can you trick them into not having their fighters already out when you show up.

The first two are kind of nebulous. We see Saths launching lots of fighters, but nothing beyond what a destroyer might carry. Obviously the game couldn't support having a hundred fighters in play at once, so this doesn't necessarily mean anything. The fighters that do get launched don't come out particularly fast, maybe one wing every 30 seconds or so. Wether this is a limitation of the ship, or of the mission, is hard to say.

The third is almost certainly a yes. The Shivans do not seem to be very tactically clever, generally allowing brute force to get the job done.

The bottom line is that a Sathanas is MUCH easier for fighters to disarm than a Colossus is, mostly because the Colossus has more cannons and they're scattered more widely across the hull of the ship. As long as you can establish fighter superiority around the front end of a Sathanas for 2 or 3 minutes, you can render it offensively helpless, and then bring in whatever destroyers you happen to have to finish it off with cannon fire.



Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 03:56:50 pm
Let's not forget Terran/Vasudan pilots >> Shivan pilots.

Thus, even if the Collie and Sath had exactly the same fighter complements the Collie has an advantage.

Speaking of fighter complements, generally it seems that shivan destroyers are comparable to GTVA ones in terms of fightercapacity.. I'd assume the same holds true for the Sath. The Sath seems to have more volume, but hte whole moving arms and sun buster thing would surely take up a lot of internal space.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 28, 2007, 04:01:53 pm
Teh GTVA had more ships in hte nebula. That is a FACT.

I must have missed the mission where the GTVA had magical sensors that could detect a bloody thing in the nebula.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: StarSlayer on August 28, 2007, 04:06:14 pm
In experiments with Fred in a straight Capital ship to Capital ship duel between a Sathanas and GTVA Destroyers 3 destroyers can defeat a Jugg...    After 4 others absorb its fire till they can flank it.  I think that 7 destroyers was the magic number in a frontal assault, 3-4 destroyers got roasted before the remainder moved out of it frontal arcs and shot the hell out of its flanks.  Even so it took the surviving vessels a dog's age to go through the Jugg's HP.  Course the GTVA does not simply throw ships at the Sathanas, they need to be are skippered by wizards, no ninja wizards...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: morriscat on August 28, 2007, 04:18:50 pm
Speaking of fighter complements, generally it seems that shivan destroyers are comparable to GTVA ones in terms of fightercapacity.. I'd assume the same holds true for the Sath. The Sath seems to have more volume, but hte whole moving arms and sun buster thing would surely take up a lot of internal space.

That was sort of my thinking too. If I were FREDing a campaign like this, I'd be inclined to arbitrarily say a Sathanas has less fighter complement than a Colossus does, just as a matter of design philosophy.

In experiments with Fred in a straight Capital ship to Capital ship duel between a Sathanas and GTVA Destroyers 3 destroyers can defeat a Jugg...    After 4 others absorb its fire till they can flank it.


I still think it's kinda pointless to test engagements like this without including fighters. A GTVA Destroyer is not a battleship, it's an armed fighter carrier, as is a Colossus. I understand it's a lot easier to FRED an engagement between capships without having to throw all kinds of fighter wings into the mix, but if we actually want to talk about realistic comparisons between the ships, that's how it has to be done.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 28, 2007, 05:00:40 pm
Teh GTVA had more ships in hte nebula. That is a FACT.

I must have missed the mission where the GTVA had magical sensors that could detect a bloody thing in the nebula.

:yes:

The Shivans were putting up one hell of a fight. And the first Sathanas brought some firepower, remember(i.e. SD Beleth).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 05:04:19 pm
What do sensors have to do with ship numbers?

And I wasn't refering to "they had more ships than shivans in the nebula", but rather - they had more ship than the 3 destroyers that planned to attack the sath.


But if we're taking fighters/bombers into the equation the Collie has a distinct advantage - better Anti-fighter defenses and better pilots
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 28, 2007, 05:13:18 pm
What do sensors have to do with ship numbers?

And I wasn't refering to "they had more ships than shivans in the nebula", but rather - they had more ship than the 3 destroyers that planned to attack the sath.

All command refers are the three destroyers standing by. If there were other ships, they'd be mentioned.


Also, why do people say that terran and vasudans have better pilots? Alpha 1 aside, my wingmen seem to die much faster than the oposition.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 05:45:10 pm
What do sensors have to do with ship numbers?

And I wasn't refering to "they had more ships than shivans in the nebula", but rather - they had more ship than the 3 destroyers that planned to attack the sath.

All command refers are the three destroyers standing by. If there were other ships, they'd be mentioned.

What ALLIED WARSHIPS were retreating from the nebula if there were none inside? Remeber - SEEVERAL warships failed to raturn to GD on time, which means there were a lot more in there.

Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 28, 2007, 05:57:26 pm
What do sensors have to do with ship numbers?

And I wasn't refering to "they had more ships than shivans in the nebula", but rather - they had more ship than the 3 destroyers that planned to attack the sath.

All command refers are the three destroyers standing by. If there were other ships, they'd be mentioned.

What ALLIED WARSHIPS were retreating from the nebula if there were none inside? Remeber - SEEVERAL warships failed to raturn to GD on time, which means there were a lot more in there.



Corvettes, cruisers, etc...?

Also, command refers to rallying ships of the fleet in Gamma Draconis, not retreating from the nebula, which could mean ships also coming from Capella, the 3rd Fleet's HQ.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: StarSlayer on August 28, 2007, 06:28:53 pm

In experiments with Fred in a straight Capital ship to Capital ship duel between a Sathanas and GTVA Destroyers 3 destroyers can defeat a Jugg...    After 4 others absorb its fire till they can flank it.


I still think it's kinda pointless to test engagements like this without including fighters. A GTVA Destroyer is not a battleship, it's an armed fighter carrier, as is a Colossus. I understand it's a lot easier to FRED an engagement between capships without having to throw all kinds of fighter wings into the mix, but if we actually want to talk about realistic comparisons between the ships, that's how it has to be done.

I totally agree you can't get a totally realistic engagement without strikecraft, i was just fooling around with fred and the thread author was looking for a straight stick gun duel.  Then again when has FS ever realistically and effectively deployed a destroyers Air Group?  Granted engine limitations inhibit it but when would they ever commit fighters to a meat grinder 12 at a time?  There is no question swarming the Jugg with strikecraft while your capitals sit out of range is the best option.  If you snuffed all the beams in "bear baiting" an Orion culd have smoked the Jugg in "high noon."  Granted it would take a day and the gunnery crews would need t eat and take naps...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 28, 2007, 06:30:05 pm
At 0745 hours, reconnaissance sighted the Sathanas juggernaut heading for the jump node to Terran-Vasudan space. Because of the immediate risk to our home systems, Command has aborted the plan to attack the juggernaut in the nebula. All allied forces have been ordered to withdraw immediately to Gamma Draconis. Further orders will be issued upon our arrival. We have no conclusive data regarding the transmissions exchanged between the Iceni and the Rephaim.


The Shivan juggernaut Sathanas is now en route to the jump node leading to Terran-Vasudan space. Command ordered all units to rally in Gamma Draconis in three hours' time. Though we have accounted for most of our fleet, at least six warships have failed to reach the rendezvous point. We can wait for them no longer.The GTVA Security Council has authorized the immediate destruction of the Knossos subspace portal.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 28, 2007, 06:37:55 pm
It still fails to explain what forces they compose of. 10 cruisers can be mentioned as 10 warships.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 28, 2007, 08:34:02 pm
It still fails to explain what forces they compose of. 10 cruisers can be mentioned as 10 warships.

Minimum composition would be several corvettes (I know the GVCv Maahes and the GVCv Thutmose were alive, though damaged, not sure if the GTCv Actium and GTCv Warspite were still in the nebula), a few destroyers (GTD Aquitaine, GVD Psamtik, GVD Toeris) and a bunch of cruisers I'd guess.  They did say they were launching co-ordinated strikes throughout the nebular theatre, and I assume there was at least 1 corvette at each engagement [Fenris and Leviathan cruisers would get creamed since they are weak].

The thing is, whoever gets the drop on the other will come out on top.  The ambushers can sortie bomber wings to disable the enemy beam cannons and fighterbays, and busted fighterbays = no backup besides subspace reinforcements.

Colossus wins if it jumps in besides the Sathanas for a few minutes of broadsiding, + bomber wings to handle forward beams and fighterbay.  Sathanas if it gets the jump, just like during 'Their Finest Hour', though the necessity of bombers for it isn't necessary (though normally you can't disable a Colossus, 3 of its engines are invulnerable).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 05:25:08 am
It still fails to explain what forces they compose of. 10 cruisers can be mentioned as 10 warships.

True, but since 6 faied to return to GD, that means there weas a lot more than 6 in there to begin with.. I do guess most ships were cruisers and corvettes, but that's nothnig to laugh about. Deimoses and Aeoluses eat enemy fighters/bombers for lunch and if they joined the destroyers it would give the GTVA forces a distinct air superiority.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 29, 2007, 02:01:38 pm
Not  to mention that any gtva corvette asisted by a wing or 2 of bommbers and heavy fighters can crush a Ravana!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 29, 2007, 02:46:28 pm
That's a n00bish comment. Ingame, beams simply reduce the hull integrity of their target. They actually slice through the hull and cause terrible damage(and kill plenties of crewmen). Just look at one of the many FS2 logos. An SRed discharged by a Moloch penetrates the hull of a Moloch. A Ravana does the same with an Orion.

Basically, beams are supposed to be far deadlier. And the Shivans have fearsome beams. A single volley coming from a Ravana is supposed to devastate a Deimos. Bear this in mind :)

The FreeSpace Universe is something. FreeSpace the Game...is something else :)
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 29, 2007, 02:55:11 pm
Why is is a noobish coment?? defang the ravana with bommbers or heavy fighters then lay waste to it with a deimos or a sobek! SO it is not a noobish coment it is reality! Sort of!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 03:01:51 pm
Why is is a noobish coment?? defang the ravana with bommbers or heavy fighters then lay waste to it with a deimos or a sobek! SO it is not a noobish coment it is reality! Sort of!

A Ravana with 4 beams intact can tear anything below superdestroyer-class to pieces in one volley.  A corvette dies to 2-3 hits of an LRed, so those pilots need to be superfast with their Stillettos/Trebuchets if they want to save the corvette.  Of course if that corvette attacked from the side where the Ravana can't nail it then the pilots have plenty of time to disarm and take out fighter cover.  It's just that Terran slash beams really suck, better if they refitted with BGreens even if the recharge is way longer.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 29, 2007, 03:58:05 pm
you actualy have such a mission in the game in the nebula! Remember?? Also i agree with the Bgreens 2 bgreens instead of 4 slashers would be so much more better! And posible!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 04:30:46 pm
A Ravana with 4 beams intact can tear anything below superdestroyer-class to pieces in one volley.  A corvette dies to 2-3 hits of an LRed, so those pilots need to be superfast with their Stillettos/Trebuchets if they want to save the corvette.  Of course if that corvette attacked from the side where the Ravana can't nail it then the pilots have plenty of time to disarm and take out fighter cover.  It's just that Terran slash beams really suck, better if they refitted with BGreens even if the recharge is way longer.

2 beams worth mention actually... that can be destroyed easily by Harpoons....I've yet to meat a ship that's so friggin easy to defang as teh ravana :lol:
The other beams are FAR weaker than the main LReds and jsut as easy to destroy.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 04:32:40 pm
you actualy have such a mission in the game in the nebula! Remember?? Also i agree with the Bgreens 2 bgreens instead of 4 slashers would be so much more better! And posible!

In FOW I gave them 2 MGreens on the front (something between SGreens and BGreens) insted of that slasher crap. The ship becomes a whole different beast with that.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 04:34:20 pm
you actualy have such a mission in the game in the nebula! Remember?? Also i agree with the Bgreens 2 bgreens instead of 4 slashers would be so much more better! And posible!

Did you even read the Briefing?

Quote
This is Lieutenant Samsa. The allied attack against the SD Ravana has deteriorated. We've lost the GTD Delacroix, and the surviving warships in the battle group are damaged. Petrarch is scrambling the 107th to assist. Command will also sortie the GVC Somtus and the GTC Yakiba. Once they cross the subspace portal, we will move them into position.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 05:17:00 pm
you actualy have such a mission in the game in the nebula! Remember?? Also i agree with the Bgreens 2 bgreens instead of 4 slashers would be so much more better! And posible!

Did you even read the Briefing?

Quote
This is Lieutenant Samsa. The allied attack against the SD Ravana has deteriorated. We've lost the GTD Delacroix, and the surviving warships in the battle group are damaged. Petrarch is scrambling the 107th to assist. Command will also sortie the GVC Somtus and the GTC Yakiba. Once they cross the subspace portal, we will move them into position.

Yeah, battling Shivan destroyers with your own fleet without TAG missiles or AWACS technology in nebula conditions = not bright.

If I recall AlphaOne, the GTCv Lysander got whooped when the Ravana jumped in.  Instantly.  Don't attack a Ravana using warships unless you defang it first, or have the necessary support (AWACS, TAGs) to find and exploit weakspots.  I don't never recall Deimos corvettes ever getting slash beams replaced in the canon FS2 campaign either.  It's only in custom campaigns where they get different loadouts (like in my campaign, I gave SOC's GTCv Naxos 2 LReds and 2 BGreens as part of an experimental project).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 05:46:06 pm
DElacroix was destroyed but it doens't specify exactly how...did he Ravan had any escort warships? Was it an ambush?

It just said that the attack failed, and I assume Comamnd wasn't dumb enough to just go in a frontal assault. A ambush :hopping: I say.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 05:53:03 pm
DElacroix was destroyed but it doens't specify exactly how...did he Ravan had any escort warships? Was it an ambush?

It just said that the attack failed, and I assume Comamnd wasn't dumb enough to just go in a frontal assault. A ambush :hopping: I say.

They probably tried to ambush but the nebula screwed with sensors and vision so the Ravana was able to change heading and fry the sorry destroyer without taking major damage (that's what I assume happened).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:03:40 pm
DElacroix was destroyed but it doens't specify exactly how...did he Ravan had any escort warships? Was it an ambush?

It just said that the attack failed, and I assume Comamnd wasn't dumb enough to just go in a frontal assault. A ambush :hopping: I say.

Well, it was the mission after they've found the Shivan capital ship they were after, they were planning an assault on it imediatly after they encountered it so...

If someone says an attack has failed/deteriorated and then procedes to list casualties, I think it's fair game to say those casualties were done because of the assault.

Why are people so sceptical about a superior warship by an ancient race overpowering an inferior one by a new race?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 29, 2007, 06:37:02 pm
This is getting ridiculous! What the hell ij that mission i defang the Ravana and then a Deimos i believe crushes it to pieces! What is that dificult to understand!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 29, 2007, 06:40:22 pm
I can destroy the Sathanas singlehandely, does that mean every pilot in the GTVA can do so too?

Alpha 1 for gameplay purposes can do anything. Storywise, that's a whole diferent story.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 29, 2007, 06:56:22 pm
I can destroy the Sathanas singlehandely, does that mean every pilot in the GTVA can do so too?

Alpha 1 for gameplay purposes can do anything. Storywise, that's a whole diferent story.

If you turned the original FS2 campaign into a multiplayer co-op, then yeah.  The ownage of Shivans would be off the charts... :pimp:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2007, 07:03:32 pm
DElacroix was destroyed but it doens't specify exactly how...did he Ravan had any escort warships? Was it an ambush?

It just said that the attack failed, and I assume Comamnd wasn't dumb enough to just go in a frontal assault. A ambush :hopping: I say.

They probably tried to ambush but the nebula screwed with sensors and vision so the Ravana was able to change heading and fry the sorry destroyer without taking major damage (that's what I assume happened).

that's exactly what happens in my campaign :p


Quote
Why are people so sceptical about a superior warship by an ancient race overpowering an inferior one by a new race?

It's not that...I'm sceptical of it getting out of a engagement with several warships wit h100% integrity!  that's a no no..

Unless of course it unleashed it complement in an ambush, crippling down the delacroix and then delivering the final blow.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 30, 2007, 09:14:31 pm
My question is, was the GTD Delacroix a Hecate-class or an Orion-class?  I'd guess Orion since Hecates are more of a command-and-control vessel better served away from the frontlines where it can sortie fighter/bomber wings safely, but yeah the escaping mostly intact from an engagement with an Orion is highly unlikely, it has 3 BGreens, at least 1 of which should always be able to hit and deal some noticeable damage.  Unless of course that beam missed but the slash beam(s) should still have made somewhat of a dent.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 30, 2007, 10:29:55 pm
Sure a Ravana can take out pretty fast a GTVA destroyer or rather its beam cannons can but even so there were a lot of warships suposedly involved! So it would be IMPOSIBLE FOR a ravana to get away wihtout a single scratch ! Hell at least one bommber should of unleashed at least 1 helios! I mean come on ppl i know shivan have uber ships of doom but such an arguement is right there on the border line of absolute stupidity! Nothing gets away undamaged not even shivan warships !

And how the hell did the Ravana fighter/bommber compliment managed to get away wihtout a single scratch ever wondered that? We arent talking about crappy sivan aaaf defences here ppl! this is GTVA lvl aaaf defences which are far far more superior!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 30, 2007, 10:37:13 pm
Uhh, the Lucifer and Sathanas got away from most battles without a scratch. They just completely annihilated the opposition till a weakness could finally be found.

I'm pretty sure if you have overwhelming firepower you get away from a battle without taking much damage.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 30, 2007, 10:53:15 pm
Uhh, the Lucifer and Sathanas got away from most battles without a scratch. They just completely annihilated the opposition till a weakness could finally be found.

I'm pretty sure if you have overwhelming firepower you get away from a battle without taking much damage.

Much damage not any sort of damage at all! And we really cand compare the Sathanas and the Lucifer to a ravana now can we?? Even the first Sath and the second one suffered damage! The first was destroyer the second was damaged by the Collie's beam cannons !

My point is not that they cant get away its rather they can not do that wihout suffeing damage especialy a shivan destroyer wich should suffer at least moderate dammage from a fleet that large!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 30, 2007, 11:18:08 pm
I'm pretty sure the Shivan have fleet so of their own. The problem is, the Shivans are so mysterious that we make mostly assumptions about them.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 30, 2007, 11:42:45 pm
And most of the asumptions we make of them are wrong! Like they are gods of doom they ships cant be sratched by such primitive species like the terrans and vasudan! Damn people here make the GTVA seem like theyre throwing stones at a Chalanger 2 tank! Like the GTVA are some sort of cave men or something! Well they kinda aer cavemen since they still fight eachother for stupid things but aside from that the GTVA has the upper hand over the shivans in many areas such aaaf defences tactics strategy better ship designs and most importantly of all survival instinct and imagination and ingenuity!

Compared to the GTVA in some respects the shivans are kinda primitive to say the least!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 12:54:20 am
Shivans aren't primitive, they are better than the GTVA at certain technological aspects (beams, subspace) and worse in others (stealth, fighter weaponry, support/re-arm/repair ships).  How they make up for it is their attack-oriented designs + TOTALLY OVERWHELMING numbers, enough to challenge even a Zerg Overmind with full command of all its broods.

Due to the Shivans lack of challenge by any species we've seen so far, they haven't really had a need to use complex battle strategies or tactics to win, nor have they needed to quickly advance their technology.  This is probably why the Shivans don't improve by leaps and bounds, unlike the GTVA.

The GTVA doesn't have anywhere close to the numbers the Shivans have, which forces them to use complex strategies/tactics to minimize casualties and maximize kills.  This also forces them to quickly improve their technology so their numerically inferior forces stand a chance against the Shivan swarms.

Another way to put it is that, the Shivans don't really have much selective pressure to improve and survive, while the GTVA must CONSTANTLY adapt, grow and advance in any possible way just to fend of the Shivans.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 01:03:22 am
Also who is to say the shivans have anot already reached they technological and evolutionary peak?

We all know when such a species reaches its peak they kinda tend to stagnate and the new scientifical bereakthroughs are few and far between! This could be the case with the shivans you know!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 31, 2007, 01:03:57 am
So technically, the GTVA may have been just fighting a bunch of Shivan pirates. Imagine that, the Terran and Vasudan race nearly wiped out from a band of Shivan pirates.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 01:59:18 am
So technically, the GTVA may have been just fighting a bunch of Shivan pirates. Imagine that, the Terran and Vasudan race nearly wiped out from a band of Shivan pirates.

I reakky want to know how you managed to figure that out??
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 31, 2007, 02:04:24 am
Well, its all speculations. My theory that the Shivan incursions were nothing more then pirates has as much basis as your theory that you can simply capture a Shivan warship and reverse engineer the beam weaponry.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: nvsblmnc on August 31, 2007, 02:21:09 am
I'n not convinced a capture would be necessary to obtain some Shivan equipment.  When a capital ship goes up, there would still be a significant amount of it left somewhat intact.

You'd be unlikely to scavenge any quality equipment, but there might be enough to get a few ideas about the general direction of your enemies' technological development.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 02:42:39 am
Well, its all speculations. My theory that the Shivan incursions were nothing more then pirates has as much basis as your theory that you can simply capture a Shivan warship and reverse engineer the beam weaponry.

You must be joking right?? The god damn GTVA has beam weapons beacuse they took a scan of those lucifer flux cannons which were the precursors of the moder day beam cannons! Come on...we have ample proof that GTVA cas reverse engenier shivan tech! Terran Mara Beam weapons Kaiser need i go further??

They already reversed engeniered beam cannons and moder day beam cannons are much more powerfull then the lucifers flux cannons yet they are nowhere near as powerfull as the shivan beams which for obvious reasons are much more powerfull! Why? because they invented the blasted things ! also the GTVA already took steps into improving its beam tehch with the MJolnir beam cannon! So i have cannon proof that the GTVA is not only capable of reverse engeniering shivan tech but also improving it!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 31, 2007, 05:28:56 am
Uhh, the Lucifer and Sathanas got away from most battles without a scratch. They just completely annihilated the opposition till a weakness could finally be found.
I'm pretty sure if you have overwhelming firepower you get away from a battle without taking much damage.

Lucifer was shielded..Sath getting trough 2 blockades without a scratch is UTTER BOLLOCKS... :ick:

Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2007, 07:53:38 am
Well, its all speculations. My theory that the Shivan incursions were nothing more then pirates has as much basis as your theory that you can simply capture a Shivan warship and reverse engineer the beam weaponry.

You must be joking right?? The god damn GTVA has beam weapons beacuse they took a scan of those lucifer flux cannons which were the precursors of the moder day beam cannons! Come on...we have ample proof that GTVA cas reverse engenier shivan tech! Terran Mara Beam weapons Kaiser need i go further??

First, we don't know how the GTVA got beam weapons. Second, the Terran Mara was a captured modified vessel, that's not reverse-engineering. Thirdly, the kaiser was inspired by shivan weapons, again not reverse-engineering. Need I go further?  :rolleyes:

They already reversed engeniered beam cannons and moder day beam cannons are much more powerfull then the lucifers flux cannons The Lucifer flux cannons are more powerful than any GTVA beam. And almost Shivan beam for that matter. yet they are nowhere near as powerfull as the shivan beams which for obvious reasons are much more powerfull! Why? because they invented the blasted things ! also the GTVA already took steps into improving its beam tehch with the MJolnir beam cannon! So i have cannon proof that the GTVA is not only capable of reverse engeniering shivan tech but also improving it!
Yay, the GTVA is capable of improving technology! Shall we disregard the "advances" that were shown by the shivans?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 08:30:35 am
what have you been eating dude? show me where it says such thing! please! You know it was a time when people here were kinda harsh with stupid asumptions and twistings of reality i see those times are gone! I should know i got mi rear kicked for spouting out crap more then once!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: StarSlayer on August 31, 2007, 08:31:04 am
Also who is to say the shivans have anot already reached they technological and evolutionary peak?

We all know when such a species reaches its peak they kinda tend to stagnate and the new scientifical bereakthroughs are few and far between! This could be the case with the shivans you know!

Um how do we know a race can reach a scientific and evolutionary peak?  Is there another sentient race on this planet that has peaked that i don't know about?  What basis do you have to even make such a statement?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2007, 08:32:19 am
what have you been eating dude? show me where it says such thing! please! You know it was a time when people here were kinda harsh with stupid asumptions and twistings of reality i see those times are gone! I should know i got mi rear kicked for spouting out crap more then once!

Would you care to specify?

In fact, while I'm at it, I dare anyone to specify some technology where the GTVA has superiority over the Shivans.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 08:38:45 am
Stealth technology.  The GTVA have the GTF Pegasus and GVF Ptah, as far as I know Shivans don't have such stuff (It's not like them to use stealth since all they do is brute force swarm and still get the job done).  That AWACs has potential too, if it can jam Shivan comm signals (we'd have to figure out what frequency they transmit/receive on though).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2007, 08:42:55 am
If they don't show stealth technology how can you say GTVA's is more advanced?  :rolleyes:  For all you know there is a stealth ship that you haven't detected.

And Shivan sensors seem to be so advanced they don't need AWACs in the nebula.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 08:48:24 am
of course that is why theyr fighters and ships are just as afected by the nebular environment as the GTVA is! This is just ridiculous people are starting pull "canon" stuff out of their ears and sai it like its true!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: StarSlayer on August 31, 2007, 08:49:18 am
Cross species communicators or ETAK :p  Though if the shivans bothered to build one they could probably make a better one, it probably more of a case that talking to the puny race your wiping from the galaxy wasn't a priority




EDIT say A1 post and laughed>>

Quote from: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 08:48:24 AM
of course that is why theyr fighters and ships are just as afected by the nebular environment as the GTVA is! This is just ridiculous people are starting pull "canon" stuff out of their ears and sai it like its true!


Well considering they have little trouble finding, targeting, tracking and eliminating GTVA corvettes and destroyers in the nebula i would say there is support for saying they aren't affected by the Nebula
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 09:01:36 am
If they don't show stealth technology how can you say GTVA's is more advanced?  :rolleyes:  For all you know there is a stealth ship that you haven't detected.

And Shivan sensors seem to be so advanced they don't need AWACs in the nebula.

I'm using logic + evidence to support my IDEAS (you can't say the Shivans are more advanced in stealth UNLESS they ACTUALLY SHOW PROOF THEY HAVE STEALTH TECHNOLOGY).  You should try too, it's good for the brain  :P

Yes, it's possible Shivans have stealth tech, but EXTREMELY unlikely, seeing as how it doesn't match their style.  Shivan tactics are quite simple actually:

-attack with several ships and fighters
-several ships + fighters die, send more ships & fighters, and bigger ones at that
-bigger ships die, send even bigger and MORE ships
-if all else fails, call in a fleet to distract and supernova the system

Their defenses seem to consist of this:

-a few wings + sentry guns guard a depot/comm relay/gas miners
-get attacked, call in more fighters
-reinforcements die, call in some more fighters and a cruiser
-still fail, sending a giant team of dragons + destroyer (or juggernaut) to wipe the attackers out

The Shivans aren't as almighty as you may believe them to be.  After all, they are only a 'symptom' of a bigger problem.  This you can't really dispute.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 09:03:06 am
The Shivans at the beginning of the game were stealthed, if not only slightly. The GTA and PVN had to make more sensitive sensors to target them.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2007, 09:06:45 am
I'm using logic + evidence to support my IDEAS (you can't say the Shivans are more advanced in stealth UNLESS they ACTUALLY SHOW PROOF THEY HAVE STEALTH TECHNOLOGY).  You should try too, it's good for the brain  :P You mean you are using logic + LACK of evidence to support your ideas? Again, if the Shivans don't show a stealth fighter how can you tell if the GTVA has more advanced technology regarding it? Note I'm not saying the Shivans have better stealth tech, I'm asking how do you know that the GTVA is more advanced in that area.

Yes, it's possible Shivans have stealth tech, but EXTREMELY unlikely, seeing as how it doesn't match their style.  Shivan tactics are quite simple actually:

-attack with several ships and fighters
-several ships + fighters die, send more ships & fighters, and bigger ones at that
-bigger ships die, send even bigger and MORE ships
-if all else fails, call in a fleet to distract and supernova the system

Their defenses seem to consist of this:

-a few wings + sentry guns guard a depot/comm relay/gas miners
-get attacked, call in more fighters
-reinforcements die, call in some more fighters and a cruiser
-still fail, sending a giant team of dragons + destroyer (or juggernaut) to wipe the attackers out

The Shivans aren't as almighty as you may believe them to be.  After all, they are only a 'symptom' of a bigger problem.  This you can't really dispute.From the player's perspective they ARE almighty. They have advantage in technology, numbers, and pretty much everything. They blew up a freaking star FFS.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 09:17:43 am
Well if that's how you're going to argue, then since officially the largest Shivan warship is a Sathanas, that would mean you can't say their technology is leaps and bounds better than the GTVA.

At best they have a subspace superweapon that takes 80+ juggernauts several days to power up, and they have BFReds that aren't well defended (2 LRFlaks don't cut it vs. Helios torpedoes at close range), they have better subspace jump abilities since they can use unstable nodes, but I don't see how they have better fighters or weaponry (they always go for the swarm approach, I've never seen them fight one-to-one against their GTVA equivalent and win).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2007, 09:37:30 am
Well if that's how you're going to argue, then since officially the largest Shivan warship is a Sathanas, that would mean you can't say their technology is leaps and bounds better than the GTVA. Why not? Ships size does not equal technology. They have better sensors, better weapons, better ships...

At best they have a subspace superweapon that takes 80+ juggernauts several days to power up, and they have BFReds that aren't well defended (2 LRFlaks don't cut it vs. Helios torpedoes at close range), they have better subspace jump abilities since they can use unstable nodes, but I don't see how they have better fighters or weaponry (they always go for the swarm approach, I've never seen them fight one-to-one against their GTVA equivalent and win). Take the player out of the equation and then say that again.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: TrashMan on August 31, 2007, 09:41:36 am
The Shivans at the beginning of the game were stealthed, if not only slightly. The GTA and PVN had to make more sensitive sensors to target them.

Nope.. The GTVA had no knowledge of shivan electronics at that point and had trouble aquireing lock.
They stil lshowed up on their radar. Stealths don't appear at all.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 09:46:03 am
They stil lshowed up on their radar. Stealths don't appear at all.

The Shivans at the beginning of the game were stealthed, if not only slightly. The GTA and PVN had to make more sensitive sensors to target them.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 09:46:31 am
Read my post carefully.  I never said the GTVA had equal tech to the Shivans.  I said the Shivan technology isn't so far advanced that it makes them like gods.  In fact, the only reason the GTVA had to cut off Capella was because they had numbers.  1 for 1 the Sathanas is superior to the Colossus, but only in terms of anti-capship when its forward facing.

My FRED simulations of AI GTVA vs. Shivan fighters ALWAYS ends up with GTVA victories when equal numbers.  In fact, I made 4 wings of Shivan fighters (Basilisk, Dragon, Mara, Astaroth) each with 10 waves, and 3 wings of GTVA fighters (Myrmidon, Herc 2, Perseus) with 10 wings each, by the end all Shivans are dead with the GTVA on its 7th or 8th wave.  I fly a stealth fighter and put myself far from combat so 'Alpha 1' doesn't interfere  :lol:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 09:48:53 am
That's the thing. The Shivans have the numbers. But they also have the tech! Can the GTVA blow up starses?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2007, 09:50:20 am
Fang_Taichou, what dificulty and AI level do you use? I find that very hard to believe.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 09:51:40 am
Default AI for both is Captain, I set the diff to medium.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 09:53:53 am
Set [the difficulty] to Insane for auto-battles, it makes for more competent AI.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2007, 09:55:58 am
Not to mention in Medium the hostile AI has a disadvantage regarding fire delay.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 10:24:56 am
Just ran the FRED simulation on Insane, these are the results:

-3 wings on each side, 10 waves each

Astaroth vs. Perseus, Perseus wins with 1 wave remaining

Mara vs. Myrmidon, 1 wave remaining for Myrmidon

Basilisk vs. Hercules Mark II, Hercules wins with a whopping 7 waves standing by.

Shivans don't really have better fighters, especially their 'heavy assault' types (Especially the Basilisk, don't know why the Shivans bother using them in large numbers)

Oh I forgot to add, the GTVA fighters were equipped with beginner weaponry (i.e. no Kaysers, Trebs, Prometheus S, Maxims, or Morningstars...etc.)
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on August 31, 2007, 10:30:43 am
Actually, I find the Basilisk' table entry a bit punitive. It was supposed to be a fighter resistant to GTVA's weapons...it's not. :blah:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 11:04:55 am
Well I ran the FRED simulation a second time, these are the results:

5 wings each now, still 10 waves per wing

Astaroth vs. Perseus, Perseus wins with 4 wings on standby

Mara vs. Myrmidon, Myrmidon wins with no waves remaining

Basilisk vs. Herc 2, Herc 2 still wins with 7 waves leftover for use

The 2 new matchups are to see how the new technologies fare up against Shivans (the above 3 matchups had the same wpns loadout as the first test)

SF Mara vs. SF Mara (terrans), the Terran version wins with 6 waves ready for use (these guys have Kaysers + harpoons)

Dragon vs. Erinyes, Erinyes wins with 3 waves remaining (dual Kaysers + harpoons)

I'd conclude that on average, 1 for 1, GTVA fighters are better.  Shivans however, don't care and just zerg you with swarms of fighters to rip you open, thereby negating the small design advantages of the GTVA.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 11:14:12 am
Actually it's the Shivan's weapons that suck...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 31, 2007, 11:14:58 am
Uhh, Shivan fighters are designed to be subpar compared to Terran/Vasudan fighters otherwise the game wouldn't as fun. What fun would it be if your wingmen were killed on the first or second wings? It can probably be assumed the Terran/Vasudan pilots are better trained and probably have experience from the war with the NTF.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 11:17:02 am
Actually it's the Shivan's weapons that suck...

Give the Shivans Kaysers and stuff and see what happens... Hmmm...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 11:24:41 am
Actually it's the Shivan's weapons that suck...

Give the Shivans Kaysers and stuff and see what happens... Hmmm...

Well they get Trebs, Hornets and Harpoons just like the GTVA does, if I had to give them Kaysers (which is GTVA making improvements from their laster) that would mean Shivan technology isn't so advanced that it's beyond the GTVA's ability to assimilate and adapt.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Gamma_Draconis on August 31, 2007, 11:25:49 am
What is the Shivan's most powerful primary laser anyways?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on August 31, 2007, 11:36:26 am
Shivan Mega Laser, which sucks ass as it wasn't touched since FS1.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on August 31, 2007, 05:43:29 pm
If you want to give shivans kaysers and other GTVA tech then give the GTVA BFReds ans advanced subspace tech to equal the odds!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: akenbosch on August 31, 2007, 08:56:38 pm
thats easy. but its still easier than the NTF.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on August 31, 2007, 09:10:23 pm
thats easy. but its still easier than the NTF.

I'm lost, what's easier than the NTF?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on August 31, 2007, 09:12:57 pm
I got lost 3 or 4 post back.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: akenbosch on August 31, 2007, 09:21:30 pm
even with GTVA tech, the shivans are still easier too beat than the NTF.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on August 31, 2007, 09:24:57 pm
even with GTVA tech, the shivans are still easier to beat than the NTF.


Fixed.Too is used at the very end of a sentence.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on September 01, 2007, 02:22:24 am
The shivans may be weak in defensive positions but they excell in ofensive capabilaties as long as no fighter/bommbers are involved cuz once you enter them into the equation then the shivans tend to lose badly! I mean you just have to send bommbers to defand the heavy hitters of the fleet then just warp in the big ships and rip the shivan ships to pieces!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 01, 2007, 06:14:54 am
The Subach HL-7 is more effective than the Shivan mega Laser IMO.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 01, 2007, 07:55:34 am
The Subach HL-7 is more effective than the Shivan mega Laser IMO.

I still wouldn't try to go head-to-head against a Seraphim armed Megas or even Heavys.

What the GTVA needs to try and do is either replicate the power and rate of fire the Shivan beams have, or greatly improving the range of their beam weaponry so they can effectively act as artillery (thus perhaps making TAG missiles worth using in a nebula).

The problem is the Shivans always have at least 1 or 2 escort wings for their warships with backups if necessary.  Shivans are also better at subspace jumping, so you'd have to disarm AND disable their vessels.  Add to that the fact that they just throw something bigger at you when you kill them (kill a cruiser, they send in several more, kill those and its 1 or 2 corvettes + fighters, mess those up and they call in a destroyer and lots more fighters, take that out then a juggernaut comes after you...) so they whittle you down via attrition.

Point is, Shivans excel at offense no matter what in the end.  Any serious assaults they do, the GTVA always gets forced to retreat.  On defense they are weak, but the fact remains that counterattacks are still attacks.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 01, 2007, 08:23:07 am
They don't care about defense. They just attack when they try to defend.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 09:41:03 am
:yes:

True. So true. They have an immense fleet...who cares about defense? :)
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Vip on September 01, 2007, 09:53:04 am
I wonder what would the Shivans do if somebody managed to make some kind of super-jump (hmmm, Sync ?) and a Fleet would end up near their space station/homeworld/whatever. They would be pretty damn confused what to do. Of course they can all live solely on ships and this post won't make any sense then...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 01, 2007, 10:08:25 am
I don't think they have a homeworld... A spacestation, maybe...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 10:31:33 am
An immense spacestation.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Bob-san on September 01, 2007, 01:38:27 pm
On the fighter simulation--how about trying FS1-era fighters?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on September 01, 2007, 01:41:30 pm
An immense spacestation.

The HomeStationTM. :P
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 04:51:05 pm
It should be some kind of HiveTM instead :P
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 01, 2007, 04:57:36 pm
In Inferno, the Hive is a big ass ship. I would imagine it was more like the Hara.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 05:00:06 pm
Who's the one who considers Inferno as canon? I said Hive and you took in consideration the SH Gargant :P
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on September 01, 2007, 05:00:40 pm
Yea but it wouldn't die as easily; it would have big guns.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 01, 2007, 05:01:14 pm
Who's the one who considers Inferno as canon? I said Hive and you took in consideration the SH Gargant :P

Don't you forget, I'm also an Inferno fanboi!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on September 01, 2007, 05:02:16 pm
I would be IF the ships looked half decent and HTL.They were worse than retail Fs2 sometimes.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 01, 2007, 05:04:00 pm
Yea but it wouldn't die as easily; it would have big guns.

The Hara doesn't die. It has too many hitpoints, he attackers get pissed off and abort their strike :lol:

Who's the one who considers Inferno as canon? I said Hive and you took in consideration the SH Gargant :P

Don't you forget, I'm also an Inferno fanboi!

I'm a Fanboy. I kill the English language with No-Grammar...but at least, I don't use childish abbreviations :P

I would be IF the ships looked half decent and HTL.They were worse than retail Fs2 sometimes.

That was INFR1, look at the new stuff  ;7
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on September 01, 2007, 05:05:06 pm
New stuff,...,Cool.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 01, 2007, 06:34:14 pm
On the fighter simulation--how about trying FS1-era fighters?

I can try the Ulysses, Herc 1 and Loki, but the point of my tests were to show the GTVA's slight superiority in fighter quality vs. their Shivan equivalents.  That was why I used FS2-era craft, when the GTVA has had sufficient time to design fighters to properly combat Shivan threats.  In FS1 the GTA and PVN weren't prepared for the Shivans, thus many of the Shivan craft at the time were superior (shields also part of the equation).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Kie99 on September 01, 2007, 06:41:38 pm
Why the hell would the Ancients have a Hive Ship when there's nothing to suggest they're a Hive Mind?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on September 01, 2007, 06:44:37 pm
We were talking about the Shivans.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Kie99 on September 01, 2007, 06:50:32 pm
People earlier were not.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 03:26:33 am
People earlier were not.

Hive as in HUGE ASS SHIP not as in what it was used for.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 03:29:18 am
We were having the SH Gargant in mind, though it appears to be a "mobile hive", not actually an immense space station. And Inferno isn't canon...here in General FreeSpace :P
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 03:42:16 am
We were having the SH Gargant in mind, though it appears to be a "mobile hive", not actually an immense space station. And Inferno isn't canon...here in General FreeSpace :P

In the Inferno board it is....


INF CANON  :shaking:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 03:45:25 am
Yes, it is INF CANON in our Inferno Night Cafè. But here... :eek2:

The Shivans live in space, I guess they really have hives of some sort. I can't think of their warships as their only "habitat".
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 03:48:20 am
I think they may have MEGA installations, but it does not support my theory (that they travel everywhere).
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 03:51:15 am
Well...their MAIN installation must be enormous. That's where they might have been created by their "phantom creators"(I know, we can't be sure of it). Other installations should be smaller.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 04:00:38 am
The hara isn't that big. I imagine their main installation to be the size of a small planet or moon.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 04:12:19 am
I think the same thing. Their minor outposts could be smaller and reach Hara specifications. I don't think they have Arcadia-sized installation, however. I find them too small for their purposes. They also have the time and the resources to build immense stations only. What do you think? :)
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 04:41:25 am
I think the same thing. Their minor outposts could be smaller and reach Hara specifications. I don't think they have Arcadia-sized installation, however. I find them too small for their purposes. They also have the time and the resources to build immense stations only. What do you think? :)

Well they could build the Arachnas installation in a few days, and use it as a staging area or rallying point, and when they're done with the sector, abandon it or destroy it.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 04:46:40 am
The point is that they don't need rally points. Look at the Sathanas fleet...no Arachnas size installation could have supplies a Sathanas fleet.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 05:02:23 am
Well a staging area for cruisers and smaller ships. The Saths can do whatever they want. Besides, it's not like the ENTIRE Sath fleet's going to appear near an Arachnas just a few. Sort of like this:

(http://inferno.hard-light.net/Screens/shipyard12.jpg)
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 05:05:21 am
Please note that the Sathanas fleet arrived in a short amount of time.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 05:13:19 am
And they all headed for the sun. If they did any refueling or whatever, they did it in the binary system or in the system beyond the Knossos 3.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 05:33:27 am
Sure. A refueling. In a massive station, not in an Arachnas!
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 06:00:38 am
Yeah, yeah, I mean the Arachnas would be a sort of 'forward staging area' for cruisers and stuff like that.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 06:15:10 am
They only need es-cargo<t :P> depots. And there shouldn't be "forward staging areas" since every system is, virtually, Shivan. And they pull back without constructing outposts.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 06:16:48 am
Well Arachnas stations have some purpose. They could be used as fighter launching points when there are no destroyers present.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 08:49:06 am
Don't. Spoil. Shadows of the Great War!!! :mad:

And we're talking about "possible Shivan outposts", not Inferno.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 10:51:35 am
Uhh... I didn't know anything... :nervous:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Hades on September 02, 2007, 11:19:26 am
Sure...
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 11:20:49 am
And we're talking about "possible Shivan outposts", not Inferno.

Well the only public "possible Shivan outpost" models are the Arachnas. (I wouldn't call the Hara a "post")
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: AlphaOne on September 02, 2007, 11:49:23 am
so let me see if i understand this right?? Tehere is r2 and r3 releases of inferno??
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Snail on September 02, 2007, 01:31:00 pm
No.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Mobius on September 02, 2007, 02:14:37 pm
There is INF SCP, WIP, which is going to replace INFR1 ;7 And there's INFA SA, WIP ;7

Anyways, Snail, I didn't want to talk about Inferno in this topic. I can only imagine kietotheworld's reply :doubt:
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 02, 2007, 07:59:20 pm
Eh, somehow I don't see Shivans as needing stationary outposts.  They just aren't a 'defense' kind of species.  In fact, the only Shivan object that can't be redeployed elsewhere is the Shivan comm node, since sentry guns are small enough to repack in cargo containers.

From what I can tell, they prefer to stay on the move, so their weaknesses aren't exploitable by enemies.  They can carry plenty of fighters and bombers in their warships, bring along lots of gas miners and freighters/transports to cover logistics, and with their advanced subspace abilities they crush a species with frightening efficiency.

If they built an outpost, that would just be wasted time and resources since the Shivans wouldn't be able to take it with them when all enemies in the system are dead.
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: akenbosch on September 02, 2007, 08:16:34 pm
unless, of course, there are sytems with no toher species in them (concured, if you woudl prefer), they set up outposts there. where else would they build ships and well...be shivan?
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Fang_Taichou on September 02, 2007, 11:44:38 pm
unless, of course, there are sytems with no toher species in them (concured, if you woudl prefer), they set up outposts there. where else would they build ships and well...be shivan?

Shivans don't conquer, they exterminate.  Once they kill off one species, they move on until a new species emerges, at which time they return and wipe it out (probably attracted by subspace usage).

You don't see any Shivan outposts in Deneb, Altair or any of the other systems that once belonged to the Ancients.  The shipbuilding could be done on the move (although I won't rule out the possibility of a Shivan superbase/shipyard, though these will be MASSIVE and not very common, and wouldn't be called 'outposts').
Title: Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Post by: Desert Tyrant on September 03, 2007, 12:02:59 am
The problem with the Sathanas is it's kind of hard to quantify.  We don't really know that it's got as large of a fight-group as the Collosus did.  Also, it's heavily orintated for assalt engagements-  the aformented 'lulz no beamz in the side'

Fighter/Bomber attacks have been proven to quite sucessful against the Shivan warship, but keep in mind that the Psamtik's fight attack that you lead is little more than a stop-gap to quickly knock out the beams before the SJ gets to Capella.

As far as numbers go... i'd expect at least 3 normal destroyers to have a shot, actually.(Ignoring the game mechanics in which it takes a Destroyer several thousand years to destroy a Juggenaunt)  Assuming that the commanders don't act like retards, of course.  A Hades Superdestroyer, assuming FS2 loadout(This is being generous; The Hades was quite better armed in terms of firepower in ST) has a good chance to engage, and at least heavily damage a Sathanas. 

Really, only an idiot commander would attack a Sathnas from the frount. 

<edit>

unless, of course, there are sytems with no toher species in them (concured, if you woudl prefer), they set up outposts there. where else would they build ships and well...be shivan?

I'm assuming you're formerly Takashi. 

I see you still haven't learned to butt-**** the English language.  As far as we know, Shivan's don't conquer.  For one, we don't see or hear about ground operations, or invasions.  As we see from Vasuda Prime, the Shivans are more likely to Base Delta Zero* as planet than actually conquer it, from what we've seen. 

*Star Wars Imperial code word for Orbital bombard ment of the entire planet.  Results typically in complete planetary de-population and destruction, and reders the planet a molten slag heap in space.</edit>