Author Topic: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas  (Read 18589 times)

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Colossus wins in a broadside as long as it is out of firing reach of the BFReds.  Rear is a no-go, you get destroyed by the giant pieces of debris.  Above it is ok too, but below the LRed can target you.  This is with canon loadout.

Switch the anti-capship beams all to BFReds, TOTALLY different story.  only way for the Colossus to die then is if the Sathanas attacks from DIRECTLY above or below, where only 3 beams can reach (max # of main guns the Colossus can fire is 6, when it broadsides a target slightly above the Colossus).  Head-on might still end in a draw though (stupid oversized pieces of debris   :mad: )

Tested using FRED, 6 Orions in the Sathanas' blindspots take about 2.5-3 minutes to kill, out of the path of exploding debris.  A blockade of Orions should be able to destroy each Sathanas as it exits a subspace node if properly positioned and gets constant supply of reactor fuel (4 minute gap between Sathani is needed if you don't want them to collide with each other when they exit/enter subspace on the exact same spot, such as a jump node).

Nevertheless, each juggernaut was designed for different roles.  The Colossus can take on 6 Orions all at once, any sort of positioning and still win with about ~30% hull integrity left, while the Sathanas can either decimate the 6 Orions in short order or get decimated itself, depending on placement.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Remember that Command was planning on taking down a Sathanas with 3 destroyers, and I'm willing to bet they would have succeeded.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
They would have needed to attack the "weak spots" of the Sathanas, not conventionally.

 
Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
I think with the "Weak Spots" they ment the spots with not so much weaponry.

By the way, those 3 destroyers also got bomber support, off-course.

 

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Remember that Command was planning on taking down a Sathanas with 3 destroyers, and I'm willing to bet they would have succeeded.

I think that the GTVA was lucky, damn lucky. Those three destroyers would have been reduced to pieces, if not drammatically disabled and/or disarmed by hundreds of Shivan wings.

 

Offline Bob-san

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Well, next point to investigate in Colossus v. Sathanas... Who can get out more fighters and bombers faster? I'd say it's likely the Sathanas, as the Shivans are known to launch in swarms.
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Offline Snail

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
I think that the GTVA was lucky, damn lucky. Those three destroyers would have been reduced to pieces, if not drammatically disabled and/or disarmed by hundreds of Shivan wings.

How do you know? They never had the chance to go off against the Sath because it decided to go straight for Gamma Drax instead of taking the bait.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
I think that the GTVA was lucky, damn lucky. Those three destroyers would have been reduced to pieces, if not drammatically disabled and/or disarmed by hundreds of Shivan wings.

How do you know? They never had the chance to go off against the Sath because it decided to go straight for Gamma Drax instead of taking the bait.

1) What if, because of malfunctions and/or subspace effect, one of the destroyers would have jumped in...just in front of the Sathanas?

2) The Sathanas has a LRed. With a meneuver, it can bring a destroyer attacking from the back on range;

3) The Juggernaut would have launched plenties of bombers. If disabled, one of the destroyers would have been a sitting duck...even for the Sathanas;

4) The Shivans would have sortied reinforcements. Was the Beleth in the Nebula?

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
1) What if, because of malfunctions and/or subspace effect, one of the destroyers would have jumped in...just in front of the Sathanas?

2) The Sathanas has a LRed. With a meneuver, it can bring a destroyer attacking from the back on range;

3) The Juggernaut would have launched plenties of bombers. If disabled, one of the destroyers would have been a sitting duck...even for the Sathanas;

4) The Shivans would have sortied reinforcements. Was the Beleth in the Nebula?

1) What if, because of malfunctions and/or subspace effect, the Sath jumped in right between 2 destroyers?

2) The Destroyers have beams of their own. Ever heard of taking out hte single offensive beam?

3) The destroyers would have launched plenty of interceptors and bombers. If hte bombers were to disable/disarm the Sathanas it would be a sitting duck. Even for a Heacte.

4) The GTVA would have sortied reinforcements. Tehy had more ship in the nebula.

 :p
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Offline Mobius

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
1) I don't get your point;

2) No, they'rem dumb;

3) A Juggernaut has a better launch capability. And the Shivans can easily overwhelm their opponents;

4) How you can say that? The Shivans might have sortied the Beleth. And the Urobach;

  

Offline TrashMan

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Teh GTVA had more ships in hte nebula. That is a FACT.

Colussus had like 260 fighters or so...I doubt that the Sathanas would have much more in comparison. A Hecate and 2 Hatsies would have around 400 fighters minimum..
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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
We can talk about firing arcs and positioning all day, but it's really the fighters and bombers that'll decide who wins or loses a fight between a Sath and a Colossus. Both ships are supposed to have enormous fighter complements which are completely absent in the FS2 campaign. If you can negate the impact of the Sathanas' fighter wings, you don't even NEED a Colossus, you could do it with one Orion. You hit the front of the Sathanas with one bomber squadron for the BFReds, one heavy fighter squadron to knock down the flak, and a squadron or two of Perseus or Myrmidons to fly fighter cover to keep your assault force from getting paved by Maras. That leaves the other half of the Orion's fighter complement to keep the bombers off.  You make sure the Strike wing jumps in on the Sathanas at least 2 minutes before the Orion shows up, and it's a pretty fair bet all four BFReds should be down. With a Colossus, it's even easier since the Colossus has a vastly larger fighter wing.

So, for us really to have any idea how it would go down, we need to know three things.
1 : How many fighters a Sath actually carries.
2 : How fast can it launch them.
3 : Can you trick them into not having their fighters already out when you show up.

The first two are kind of nebulous. We see Saths launching lots of fighters, but nothing beyond what a destroyer might carry. Obviously the game couldn't support having a hundred fighters in play at once, so this doesn't necessarily mean anything. The fighters that do get launched don't come out particularly fast, maybe one wing every 30 seconds or so. Wether this is a limitation of the ship, or of the mission, is hard to say.

The third is almost certainly a yes. The Shivans do not seem to be very tactically clever, generally allowing brute force to get the job done.

The bottom line is that a Sathanas is MUCH easier for fighters to disarm than a Colossus is, mostly because the Colossus has more cannons and they're scattered more widely across the hull of the ship. As long as you can establish fighter superiority around the front end of a Sathanas for 2 or 3 minutes, you can render it offensively helpless, and then bring in whatever destroyers you happen to have to finish it off with cannon fire.



« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 03:35:44 pm by morriscat »

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Let's not forget Terran/Vasudan pilots >> Shivan pilots.

Thus, even if the Collie and Sath had exactly the same fighter complements the Collie has an advantage.

Speaking of fighter complements, generally it seems that shivan destroyers are comparable to GTVA ones in terms of fightercapacity.. I'd assume the same holds true for the Sath. The Sath seems to have more volume, but hte whole moving arms and sun buster thing would surely take up a lot of internal space.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Teh GTVA had more ships in hte nebula. That is a FACT.

I must have missed the mission where the GTVA had magical sensors that could detect a bloody thing in the nebula.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
In experiments with Fred in a straight Capital ship to Capital ship duel between a Sathanas and GTVA Destroyers 3 destroyers can defeat a Jugg...    After 4 others absorb its fire till they can flank it.  I think that 7 destroyers was the magic number in a frontal assault, 3-4 destroyers got roasted before the remainder moved out of it frontal arcs and shot the hell out of its flanks.  Even so it took the surviving vessels a dog's age to go through the Jugg's HP.  Course the GTVA does not simply throw ships at the Sathanas, they need to be are skippered by wizards, no ninja wizards...
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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Speaking of fighter complements, generally it seems that shivan destroyers are comparable to GTVA ones in terms of fightercapacity.. I'd assume the same holds true for the Sath. The Sath seems to have more volume, but hte whole moving arms and sun buster thing would surely take up a lot of internal space.

That was sort of my thinking too. If I were FREDing a campaign like this, I'd be inclined to arbitrarily say a Sathanas has less fighter complement than a Colossus does, just as a matter of design philosophy.

In experiments with Fred in a straight Capital ship to Capital ship duel between a Sathanas and GTVA Destroyers 3 destroyers can defeat a Jugg...    After 4 others absorb its fire till they can flank it.


I still think it's kinda pointless to test engagements like this without including fighters. A GTVA Destroyer is not a battleship, it's an armed fighter carrier, as is a Colossus. I understand it's a lot easier to FRED an engagement between capships without having to throw all kinds of fighter wings into the mix, but if we actually want to talk about realistic comparisons between the ships, that's how it has to be done.

 

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
Teh GTVA had more ships in hte nebula. That is a FACT.

I must have missed the mission where the GTVA had magical sensors that could detect a bloody thing in the nebula.

:yes:

The Shivans were putting up one hell of a fight. And the first Sathanas brought some firepower, remember(i.e. SD Beleth).

 

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
What do sensors have to do with ship numbers?

And I wasn't refering to "they had more ships than shivans in the nebula", but rather - they had more ship than the 3 destroyers that planned to attack the sath.


But if we're taking fighters/bombers into the equation the Collie has a distinct advantage - better Anti-fighter defenses and better pilots
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
What do sensors have to do with ship numbers?

And I wasn't refering to "they had more ships than shivans in the nebula", but rather - they had more ship than the 3 destroyers that planned to attack the sath.

All command refers are the three destroyers standing by. If there were other ships, they'd be mentioned.


Also, why do people say that terran and vasudans have better pilots? Alpha 1 aside, my wingmen seem to die much faster than the oposition.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: GTVA Colossus VS SJ Sathanas
What do sensors have to do with ship numbers?

And I wasn't refering to "they had more ships than shivans in the nebula", but rather - they had more ship than the 3 destroyers that planned to attack the sath.

All command refers are the three destroyers standing by. If there were other ships, they'd be mentioned.

What ALLIED WARSHIPS were retreating from the nebula if there were none inside? Remeber - SEEVERAL warships failed to raturn to GD on time, which means there were a lot more in there.

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