Poll

Is the glass half empty or half full?

Half Full
13 (23.6%)
Half Empty
11 (20%)
spinning around your head
4 (7.3%)
Other
14 (25.5%)
This isn't my glass!  It was bigger and full!
13 (23.6%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Voting closed: October 16, 2002, 01:02:17 pm

Author Topic: The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?  (Read 12179 times)

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Offline Stryke 9

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
It would have died if you hadn't bumped it...

 

Offline Petrarch of the VBB

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
Yes, well....
I'd much rather be happy than right any day!

 

Offline Stryke 9

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
And I'd be much happier snorting cheap rock than doing work. So?

Thread... must... die. Thread must... die!

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
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Originally posted by CP5670


It was locked after being open for almost five days with no activity.
Your point?  I often had spaces of several days between posts in that thread.  RL constraints on my time always have been and always will be present in my life.

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this is a rather silly explanation for that point, as it falls back upon the existentialist argument that there is no absolute world not relative to individual perception, which contradicts the axioms of science.
 Actually, it falls back on precisely the opposite.  I believe in God because what I encountered "out there" in objective reality admits no other explanation.  If I thought it was merely my own subjectivity, then I would not be making this argument.  I am saying that these things actually happened, and that thus God is real.  If all this were based on was some sort of subjective feeling or something, then my argument would have merely been that "to me, Christianity is a spritiually gratifying mystical philosophy."  But that is not my argument, and thus the rest of your argument non sequitur.

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well, you could have then just said that you were dropping out of that; not posting anything at all is rather wimpy... :p
 Well, a thousand pardons, O forgiving one! :rolleyes:

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This is pretty obvious; if it was not so, anyone who is losing could just bug out and leave things in a stalemate.
That is not so.  If they bug out after losing, they've lost.  Conversely, if the one winning has to leave, that does not change his status as winning.  The last word does not win the argument, the winning word does.  If after the argument has been won, the loser refuses to be gracious, that does not make him the winner.

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Yes, English is unfortunately not at all a language that carries this "mathematical exactitude" in its conventions.
Nor is it possible for any human language to do so.  If you want to disagree with me, the entire field of linguistics, and all of history, might I suggest that you prove your allegations.

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It is possible that sarcasm was intended, but it is equally possible that no sarcasm was intended;
And it is equally possible that I am a fuzzy stuffed duck and that I am not a fuzzy stuffed duck.  But the coment was sarcastic, and I am not a fuzzy stuffed duck.  If by the exercise of your mental powers you have difficulty apprehending which is the case, that is not the fault of the statement...

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As I said before, maybe this post is supposed to be sarcastic, but how are you to know for sure? :p
That is the beauty of sarcasm, and of irony generally.  One knows by understanding more than the mere words.  The meaning is greater than the words alone -- by employing sarcasm and irony, one is able to convey an emotional content that would not translate well into a straightforward, non-ironic statement.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2002, 04:54:24 pm by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

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Offline CP5670

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
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Your point?  I often had spaces of several days between posts in that thread.  RL constraints on my time always have been and always will be present in my life.


Well, if you don't have the time why do you not say so before entering an argument? sorry, but this is just a poor excuse. :p

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Actually, it falls back on precisely the opposite.  I believe in God because what I encountered "out there" in objective reality admits no other explanation.  If I thought it was merely my own subjectivity, then I would not be making this argument.  I am saying that these things actually happened, and that thus God is real.  If all this were based on was some sort of subjective feeling or something, then my argument would have merely been that "to me, Christianity is a spritiually gratifying mystical philosophy."  But that is not my argument, and thus the rest of your argument non sequitur.


But we are not interested in what you encountered (and why is it that you cannot encounter it and show it before me?); we are interested in what exists, and that can be different. I say that all those things did not happen, and that thus god is fake. I say that what I encountered "out there" was the good old purple dragon (actually, I created him), so that would automatically guarantee his existence according to you.

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Well, a thousand pardons, O forgiving one! :rolleyes:


I never forgive. wimp! :D

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That is not so.  If they bug out after losing, they've lost.  Conversely, if the one winning has to leave, that does not change his status as winning.  The last word does not win the argument, the winning word does.  If after the argument has been won, the loser refuses to be gracious, that does not make him the winner.


eh? :wtf: Who decides who is winning? I say I was clearly winning, and I bet you would say the same for yourself, and so we get nowhere.

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Nor is it possible for any human language to do so.  If you want to disagree with me, the entire field of linguistics, and all of history, might I suggest that you prove it.


*cough* programming languages *cough*

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And it is equally possible that I am a fuzzy stuffed duck and that I am not a fuzzy stuffed duck.  But the coment was sarcastic, and I am not a fuzzy stuffed duck.  If by the exercise of your mental powers you have difficulty apprehending which is the case, that is not the fault of the statement...

That is the beauty of sarcasm, and of irony generally.  One knows by understanding more than the mere words.  The meaning is greater than the words alone -- by employing sarcasm and irony, one is able to convey an emotional content that would not translate well into a straightforward, non-ironic statement.


In this case it is, because the statement is intended only for me to read it; I bet you would also have trouble determining the level of sarcasm in a statement of mine, since the whole concept of this sarcasm is silly, especially in a written context. :p It certainly conveyed no such "emotional content" to me. If you say you are a "fuzzy stuffed duck," I may well interpret it to mean that this is what you really think.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2002, 05:07:14 pm by 296 »

 

Offline wEvil

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
programming languages and mathematics lack any emotional content, other than what the observer implies onto them.

'nuff said.

Ignore it all you want, these states exist and cannot be linked to either quantum states within the brain or much else, to be honest.

Unfortunately for you, you are human.  And as such, you have to take these unquantifiable states into account.

 

Offline CP5670

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
What does that have to do with what we are talking about here? :rolleyes: That same thing is the case for any language if you think about it. :D

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Well, if you don't have the time why do you not say so before entering an argument? sorry, but this is just a poor excuse. :p
It is a fact to be dealt with.  I was happily carrying on at the same pace I always had been when what was for me quite abruptly the thread was locked.  If you are trying to imply that it is somehow a failing of my argument that I do not spend all of my time in this forum, I seriously question you.

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But we are not interested in what you encountered (and why is it that you cannot encounter it and show it before me?); we are interested in what exists, and that can be different. I say that all those things did not happen, and that thus god is fake.
By that line of reasoning, If I disagree with the records of history and say Caesar did not cross the Rubicon in 49 BC, then it didn't happen, and the whole history of Rome after becoming an Empire is a fake.  

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I say that what I encountered "out there" was the good old purple dragon (actually, I created him), so that would automatically guarantee his existence according to you.
When did you encounter a situation which left you with no explanation except for the purple dragon?  Why is he the only explanation?  And again I ask, if you created the purple dragon, the dragon created God, and God created you and the rest of the world, where does this circle ever begin?  It is a logical impossibility.

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I never forgive. wimp! :D
Meh.  Its your personality; be deficient if you want.

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eh? :wtf: Who decides who is winning? I say I was clearly winning, and I bet you would say the same for yourself, and so we get nowhere.
Perhaps we need an adjudicator if a consensus is to be reached, but that does not somehow mysteriously make having the last word equate to winning an argument.

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*cough* programming languages *cough*
*cough*So tell me a mystery story in C++*cough*
*cough*Go on, try it*cough*
*cough*Can't do it, can you?*cough*

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In this case it is, because the statement is intended only for me to read it; I bet you would also have trouble determining the level of sarcasm in a statement of mine, since the whole concept of this sarcasm is silly, especially in a written context. :p It certainly conveyed no such "emotional content" to me.
Nope, it was sarcastic; if you couldn't pick that up, tough beans for your communication skills.  And really, do you honestly mean to tell me that you didn't detect even a hint of mockery in the question? :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: October 25, 2002, 05:49:12 pm by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

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Offline Sesquipedalian

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
programming languages and mathematics lack any emotional content, other than what the observer implies onto them.

'nuff said.

Ignore it all you want, these states exist and cannot be linked to either quantum states within the brain or much else, to be honest.

Unfortunately for you, you are human.  And as such, you have to take these unquantifiable states into account.

I think that CP's position arises from his prestanding, axiomatic commitment to the idea that all the universe is ultimately reducible to mathematics.  I've never seen him justify that in any way, but he does insist upon it.  That's why he has such an odd view of things like this.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2002, 05:50:21 pm by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

The Scroll of Atankharzim | FS2 syntax highlighting

  

Offline CP5670

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The Glass. Half Empty or Half Full?
Quote
It is a fact to be dealt with.  I was happily carrying on at the same pace I always had been when what was for me quite abruptly the thread was locked.  If you are trying to imply that it is somehow a failing of my argument that I do not spend all of my time in this forum, I seriously question you.


It only took you around one or two days to respond before that, so why did it suddenly take five days this time? :p It is quite possible that something came up, but not likely given what I know so far. (likely from my point of view, that is)

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By that line of reasoning, If I disagree with the records of history and say Caesar did not cross the Rubicon in 49 BC, then it didn't happen, and the whole history of Rome after becoming an Empire is a fake.  


Exactly; you pointed out the problem yourself there. Now apply this to what you said earlier.

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When did you encounter a situation which left you with no explanation except for the purple dragon?  Why is he the only explanation?


You are finding the flaws in your argument for me. :D Here is my situation (I will not even bother with the point of its truth or falsehood): I saw and met a big purple dragon one day and he told me all this himself, and just like you, I can find no other good explanation. And of course, the situation cannot be reproduced. :D

(sorry, but you had some fun at my expense at the very beginning of that language argument, so I must now return the favor :D)

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And again I ask, if you created the purple dragon, the dragon created God, and God created you and the rest of the world, where does this circle ever begin?  It is a logical impossibility.


Well, god created everything but had to go back in time to create me so that I could create the purple dragon who in turn created him; sure it sounds like a logical impossibility, but god transcends all science and is not subject to any limitations like logic, so he can be perfectly illogical if he feels like it. :D (actually, I think this particular chain is possible in the quantum mechanics rules)

Now I am not trying to mock your beliefs here, but mock your arguments rather.

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Perhaps we need an adjudicator if a consensus is to be reached, but that does not somehow mysteriously make having the last word equate to winning an argument.


Alright, but this adjudicator needs to be both completely impartial and knowledgeable on the subject, and also needs to give reasons why he is favoring one guy over the other; on a game forum on the internet, this is a bit hard to find. :p

I would say that the winning conditions are met if one guy admits defeat (of course, this is quite rare) or if one guy bails out and stops posting. The latter condition is for the reason I stated earlier; people should not be able to quickly bug out when they are losing.

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*cough*So tell me a mystery story in C++*cough*
*cough*Go on, try it*cough*
*cough*Can't do it, can you?*cough*


Sure I could, if I knew the C++ syntax. (you may need to add a few extra core commands but that's about it) I can give you some basic ideas without turning them into the exact C++ commands though. There are actually a number of ways to do this. One I can think of it to give it all the natural physics laws, drop some input into it (the matter/energy), give some initial conditions, and let things progress. You can have a class or something with the definitions for a general human with several modifyable attributes. Then you define the scene in terms of those physics equations and let your pawns run in there. It would be just as meaningful as a conventional novel if you are used to it.

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Nope, it was sarcastic; if you couldn't pick that up, tough beans for your communication skills.  And really, do you honestly mean to tell me that you didn't detect even a hint of mockery in the question? :rolleyes:


Actually, the statement you quoted there was also sarcastic, but you didn't seem to detect that either, so "tough beans" for your communication skills as well. :D I certainly detected mockery there, but that does not necessarily mean sarcasm.

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I think that CP's position arises from his prestanding, axiomatic commitment to the idea that all the universe is ultimately reducible to mathematics. I've never seen him justify that in any way, but he does insist upon it. That's why he has such an odd view of things like this.


um...yeah, of course that is my "axiomatic commitment." In fact, this is precisely what the "axiomatic commitment" of all of science is. My justification for this, as is that of any scientist, that I want to certainly try to reduce it into the simple form of math before giving up on method; if it somehow fails then other alternatives can be considered, but so far it has worked just wonderfully, and if it works the way it is supposed to, the results will be better than with any other method.

And I think that your position arises from your prestanding, axiomatic commitment to the idea that all the universe is ultimately not comprehensible to humans and a magic man exists to ensure just this. I've never seen you justify that in any way, but you do insist upon it. That's why you have such an odd view of things like this. :D :D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2002, 12:12:33 am by 296 »