[an0n]

Oh and for all you "They've got better human rights now" people, I refer you to a quote I heard on BBC News.

"Yeah, it's great I can speak my mind without having to worry about who's listening, but at least under the old rule my daughter was safe walking down the street"

[an0n]

Originally posted by Gank
There's one billion Muslims, including millions in the UK and US, in the world, you realise the idiocy of what you're suggesting?

You realise how hard British citizens would fight if they thought their soil was being invaded, right?

I could take 300 men, some guns and some petrol and raise a city full of Muslims to the ground without much trouble.

Now imagine 15 million Britons doing just that.

If there's one thing the British Empire does good, it's committing genocide against towel-heads.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by ionia23

Ahh, snide rhetoric ahead.  This should be easy.  First factoid: "almost universally hated" is a rather gross estimation.

I think so, you don't. Fine. Opinions can't be proven. Next.

Originally posted by ionia23

Again, gross misrepresentation.  I hate to break this to you, but Al-Quaeda (sp?) does not represent the opinion of the planet, which is the argument you're going for.  Not everyone likes us, not everyone hates us.  Maybe in your neighborhood.

I never said they did. Remeber the recent "Who represent the biggest threat to world peace" survey? Bush won.

Originally posted by ionia23

'Have it their way', okay that's cute.  A history of, from time to time, supporting people who turn out in the end to be very bad news.  It happens.  We also have a history of crushing quite a few of your examples.

You seem to think that you support them and then they turn out to be bad. This is not the case. You support them because they are bad people, because they are dictators. Becuase democratically elected governments are an obstacle to unfettered economic exploitation.

Originally posted by ionia23

See, now you're just being a crybaby.  "Rape the world".  Okay there.  You're right, expecting to get paid for your work and your products is so devilish.  It's called "capitalism".  Or "greed", if you want to be that way.  And we're subject to the same rules everyone else is.

And this is coming from a computer user.  Right.  How many toxins in that precious little box of yours?  Right.  Stop wasting my time.

Btw, where did you get the idea I endorse SUV's/Hummers in any way?  I drive a small Toyota Sedan.  Does that make me only slightly less evil?  If a Hummer driver "finances terrorist training camps", does this mean I paid for a few bullets?

Do YOU drive a car?

The environment is going to s*** because PEOPLE exist.  IN the next 20 years it won't be Europe or the Americas polluting the planet, it'll be all the third world nations entering their own respective industrial ages.  You mark my words on that.

We are collectively responsible.

I agree, but its hard for the 3rd world to pollute when a large portion of them don't drive. As I said, 4% of the world's population uses 25% of the energy. DO you think this is fair? And how long do you think the world will last if everyone held to this standard? But I agree, we are collectively responsible.

However, what I was getting at is that U.S. companies (Britain being a close second) are the people who are out there, changing environmental laws to make more money. Its Exxon and Shell and Ford who bribe (what else do you call 1/2 a million in campaign donations) the government to loosen environmental restrictions. Face it, these companies don't give two ****s about the Earth, the bottom line is, well, the bottom line. Multinationals have your government eating out of their hand. And not just yours, most of the world's governments. the US just has the biggest capacity to do harm.

Originally posted by ionia23

Now we get to the hub of the matter.  Just as I figured, you assume everyone believes as you do.  Take a look around.  If you have such an issue, either leave (assuming you're here), and/or stop buying American made or associated products.  If you want to beat the system, that's how you do it.

Blowing up our buildings just makes us mad.

Well, thats one way, yes. But another would be to stop the lobbyists and the corporations they represent from making the gov't dance to their tune. And for the record, I think this issue is secondary to the other ones listed.

Originally posted by ionia23

Because sometimes it's the right thing to do, and because you lack the courage to do so.

As far as Haiti goes, by the way, what was the alternative?

And sometimes (vietnam) we're wrong.

The alternative is ackowledging that you are not smater or better or more civilized than anyone else. You can never enforce peace at the end of a gun. People have to work it out themselves. Its not your place to interfere. Its this sort of "holier than thou" crap that pisses me off. You think you have a monopoly on freedom and tolerance and dignity. Bull****.

To use the Haiti example, a Haitian rebel fighting Aristide knows more about freedom than your ever will. To you, its just a fancy word. You say the word and everyone falls to their knees and shouts "God Bless America". You know nothing of freedom because you have never had it taken away.

Originally posted by ionia23

No.  They simply "hate".  It takes a lot of rage to walk into a coffeeshop of normal everyday people and flatten it.  We don't believe in keeping women covered head to toe.  We don't believe they are property who exist only by permission of a man.  We don't believe not wearing your hair a certain length is a crime against the state.  We don't believe blowing up big statues of Buddha will destroy it's memory forever.

And we don't believe flying commercial airliners into buildings, or releasing gas into subways, or executing people on football fields without trial, or blowing up shops is an acceptable way to resolve a political difference.

Tthey are laboring under the assumption that it will work.  It won't.  You will never sell me on the concept that there are any good reasons for a terrorist attack anywhere.  Ever.  If we were like them our response to 9/11 would be a general nuclear strike against Afghanistan geared to inflict the maximum possible civilian casualties.  Remember that.

Lets see. You bomb, starve and shoot people. Civilians.

They fly a 747 into the WTC and kill 2700 civilians. You bomb Iraq and kill 10,000 civilians. Explain the difference to me?

You say you don't believe "flying commercial airliners into buildings, or releasing gas into subways, or executing people on football fields without trial, or blowing up shops is an acceptable way to resolve a political difference."

Sure you do, you just never admit it, not even to yourselves. Since the end of WW2, the CIA has installed and supported a dozen dictators who have done exactly these things. These are facts. You can't just wash your hands of that. History doesn't go away just because you pretend like it never happened.

Originally posted by ionia23
Reality: We will always be targets of terrorists until their cause is a forgotten memory.  And it's not just us, we just happen to be the new kids in the club.  Spain got hit today.  I dare you to tell me they had it coming.  

Why does it happen? It's called the "zero sum" theory.  You should look it up sometime.

The last person to commit a terrorist attack in this country prior to 9/11 was an American.  We forget Oklahoma City too easily.

Good arguments, all.  Time for the daily grind home.

I don't know enough about the Spanish situation to comment.

But what I do know is that people don't just "hate". I mean, think about that. What you are saying is that someone just gets up one day and for no reason at all, decides he's going to fly a jet into the WTC. That doesn't happen. Obviously, there are reason for it. You and I can dispute them all we want, but there are reasons.

The US is acting like a global bully. Excpet bully is a kids term. IN the grown up world, its called an Empire. And people resent that Not hard to imagine why.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
the 9/11 victims didn't get due process.  tit for tat.

That is probably the single most stupid statement I have ever seen on all my time on the internet.

Let me get this straight. Just because terrorists killed people in an attack on America you think that gives America the right to lock anyone away for 2 years without trial, without legal recourse and without even having any proof they actually did anything just because of the colour of their skin?
 I've already stated that one of the Brits released was arrested by the Americans in jail for spying for the Brits. That pretty much lowers the odds that he was fighting for the taliban to close to zero. Yet you feel it's okay to lock this guy in jail for two years?

Originally posted by ionia23
Of course, no examples provided other than the Soviet-Afghan war and what may or may not be a loose dig at Saddam Hussein.  Just a blanket statement.  Fine, I'll address it.

You want the list? Fair enough.

1) America overthrows prime minister Mossadeq of Iran and installs the Shah in his place.  The Shah is eventually deposed resulting in a theocratic system of government in Iran.

2) America overthrows the democratically elected president of Guatemala. This results in 200,000 civilian casualties.

3) Fearing that viet cong are hiding across the border America first bombs,  then invades Cambodia,  leading to the destablising of the country and 2 million deaths at the hands of the khmer rouge.

4) Americans back a coup in Chile to overthrow Salvador Allende the democratically elected president. They do this because they are worried about the effect having a maxist leader may have on Pepsi-cola's business in the country. The coup allows Pinoche in to begin his reign of terror. Thousends of people are disappeared.

5) America pursuade Osama Bin Laden to leave his life of luxury and fight against the russians in Afghanistan. Whn the war is over and the russians retreat having gotten what they wanted they abandon  Afghanistan to fall into civil war.

6) America gives help to Saddam Hussein so that he can solve the problem they caused themselves in Iran. The ensuing 7 year war results in millions of deaths but doesn't result in the conquest of Iran further fueling the hatred the Iranians feel for America.

7) America back wanted war criminal Jonas Savimbi in his war against the communist backed government of Angola. When free elections are finally called after many years of bloodshed the MPLA win a landslide victory over UNITA. Jonas Savimbi refuses to accept defeat and starts the war over again. To this day children continue to die from landmines planted during the war.

And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could find more if I tried. I'm not being anti-american here. I could compile a similar list against the UK if I choose to. But what many Americans don't realise is that if Iran and other countries are jealous of your freedom it's only because you insist on keeping that freedom to yourselves and bombing the hell out of any democracy you don't like.

[an0n]

WW2 would also be a good example.

But I suppose that was mostly down to American weakness against the French than any imperialistic ambitions on the part of the USA.

[Knight Templar]

Originally posted by Kalfireth
I give the human race 10 years. 20 at the most.

That is all.

At least thirty. You know, when the oil runs out.

[an0n]

I'll give them 5 years.

If they're not on the way towards a Utopia I'm putting Operation Urizen into effect and 'disappearing' some countries.