Author Topic: **** Approval at all-time low  (Read 15459 times)

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Offline Rictor

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**** Approval at all-time low
Quite the tinderbox, this.

I'm going to swallow my pride here and admit that I was probably wrong on this one. I get mighty pissed off when people don't want to admit they were in error, and topple the proverbial chessboard, so I'm not going to do that. Yup, in all likelyhood, I was wrong.

Now, to address some of the other stuff:

1. I'm not rascist toward Muslims. Thats like saying I'm anti-Semetic for being against the occupation of Gaza. The actions of a select few do not relfect (well, not for me anyway) badly on the entire group. Same goes for nations, religions etc etc. I'de also bring up the fact that I've got two Muslim friends who are some of the best I have, but thats like the people who say "sure, I've got black friends", it proves nothing.

2. I try to be colourblind where it is reasonable to be. It is not reasonable to be so in areas of conflict between two sides, divided mostly along ethnic lines (Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan etc). If there is a dead Palesitinian in Jenin, riddled with bullets, I am not going to consider equally the possibility that he was killed by Palestinians as Israelis. This has nothing to do with prejudice, it has everything to do with reality.

3. The say-so of the following organizations means nothing to me: The US government, the Macedonian government, Amnesty International, CNN et al. The first and last are known liars, Amnesty International has previously intentionally distorted evidence in pursuit of an agenda, and the Macedonian government is scared ****less, and have no independent or reliable voice to speak of..

4. The Albanian population is probably quite a bit higher in Macedonia now than it was in '94 when the census was conducted. This is due to the high influx of refugees during the Kosovo war in '99.

This does not change any of my views on the KLA, the US, Kosovo or anything in that area. But those discussions can wait for another day, and for some major breakthroughs in flame-proof technology.

 

Offline karajorma

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**** Approval at all-time low
Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Dont watch Penn and Teller, didnt know they were experts on the subject.


The reason I mentioned Penn & Teller is cause they are one of the few mainstream programmes to feature an interview with Norman Borlaug. This is the man who is the father of the The Green Revolution and is credited with saving over 1 billion people from death from starvation.
 
 When this guy speaks about world hunger you know you're listening to an expert :) Norman is fiercely anti-organic and pro GM.

Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Just read up on what you were saying in that thread and I think you misunderstand the main reason people oppose GM foods, its not because its unsafe or unnatural, but because its being done by companys like Monsanto purely for profit, patented foods are not going to help eliminate world hunger.


The simple fact is that I'm not wrong about the reasoning behind the anti-GM movement. Sure there are some people who are against gene patenting and believe that Monsanto is purely out for profit.

Guess what. I'm one of them. :)

Lets say that the main reason that the anti-GM lobby is exactly that which you say. That they distrust Monsanto and that they hate patenting of genes. How would you fight that? I personally would think that lobbing against the introduction of gene patenting was something worth doing. That is the best way to stop this nonsense.  If genes can't be patented it removes Monsanto's biggest weapon from their arsenal.

Now compare that with what the anti-GM movement actually do.

Refering to Frankenfoods.
Consistantly claim that GM is untested and unnatural
Refer to debunked scientific studies and then claim that GM is proven unsafe.
Tearing up the crops planted as part of scientific studies
Convince third world nations to reject GM-seeds given to them for free.

Does that really sound to you like the actions of people who are pro-GM but just anti-Monsanto? I've hardly peep out of the anti-GM movement in regards to lobbying against gene-patenting. If they were anti-GM for the reasons you claim it would be their biggest issue. In fact most of the people I've heard complain about gene-patenting are actually people with similar opions to myself.

The simple fact is that the anti-GM movement is led by and consists largely of people who believe that GM is unnatural and therefore wrong. These people won't be satisfied with any amount of studies into GM. They won't be happy using GM if it was regulated and companies like Monsanto were prevented from using it to exploit the third world. They hate GM and they want all research into it stopped and buried. And that is why (to quote Penn & Teller again) until they themselves are starving, they need to shut the f**k up.


What needs to be done is not an end to work on GM. What needs to be done is more research in universities and other organisations for whom profit is not the bottom line. Work done by these sort of people can put an end to world hunger (at least temporarily, we'll need to do something about population control sooner or later).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 04:44:36 am by 340 »
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Offline karajorma

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**** Approval at all-time low
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
I'm going to swallow my pride here and admit that I was probably wrong on this one. I get mighty pissed off when people don't want to admit they were in error, and topple the proverbial chessboard, so I'm not going to do that. Yup, in all likelyhood, I was wrong.


At least your man enough to admit that. It's always a hard thing to do but I've always felt that if you're wrong it's better to admit it rather than continue to argue a point past the point of all rationality.


Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
1. I'm not rascist toward Muslims. Thats like saying I'm anti-Semetic for being against the occupation of Gaza. The actions of a select few do not relfect (well, not for me anyway) badly on the entire group. Same goes for nations, religions etc etc.


So why were you claiming that any Muslim in Macedonia must be supporting the KLA? Would you claim that all the jews in Israel support the occupation of Gaza? Cause if so that is an anti-Semetic view.


Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
3. The say-so of the following organizations means nothing to me: The US government, the Macedonian government, Amnesty International, CNN et al. The first and last are known liars, Amnesty International has previously intentionally distorted evidence in pursuit of an agenda, and the Macedonian government is scared ****less, and have no independent or reliable voice to speak of..


If you distrust a news source that's fine with me. There is no such thing as an objective news source. So I always take anything I read with a pinch of salt.

However just because you distrust the official sources doesn't mean that you can simply reject them out of hand when you have no evidence whatsoever to refute them. Politicans may be liars but occasionally their agenda happens to coincide with the truth.  There was no logical reason for this story to not be the truth.

 Lets make this interesting. Lets say that the 7 men were terrorists. Lets say that we know with 100% certainty they were working for either the KLA or any other islamic terrorist group you want. Can you present a credible theory why the Macedonian government would say they weren't? Can you also make it one which the US and Amnesty would agree to go along with?

The best you've come up with so far is that the US said they weren't so Macedonia arrested their own security forces and (probably) their former interior minister because they were scared. Is that really the best you can do?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 05:17:29 am by 340 »
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