Author Topic: **** Approval at all-time low  (Read 15486 times)

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Offline Turambar

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Cut all funding to Israel, then Arab terrorists will stop attacking us, then we can see how well Israel does without US backing and only their tourist industry to support them.  *watches out for helicopters*  (well, apparently none of them are brave enough to try an actual fight)
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Grey Wolf

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Let's see.... ways to decrease world population:
1. Draconian international laws that were actually enforced
2. Bio-engineered plague
3. Nuclear winter

Hmm... None of those seem like very good ideas....
I guess we'll just end up with #4:
4. Population outstrips food-producing capacity, leading to mass starvation, rioting, and anarchy.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Rictor

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
4. Population outstrips food-producing capacity, leading to mass starvation, rioting, and anarchy.


Which, of course, would not include you and your loved ones. You had the good fortune to be born in a First World nation. Quite easy to condone death when its not your own, ain't it?

 

Offline Grey Wolf

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No, I'm being sarcastic and flippant. Realistically, something needs to be done. And in the event of mass starvation, rioting, and anarchy, do you think anyone would really escape? The infrastructure would break down.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Rictor

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Yeah, plenty of people would escape. The US, Western Europe, Japan, most of Eastern Europe...the First World. Not only do they control the capital, but they also have sizeable armies to look out for their interests. If there is ever a shortage of resources, you can bet your ass that Americans will be the last to be affected.

 

Offline mikhael

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Not our fault you weren't born in the First World. Ah well, consider it the Darwinian result of not being born with genes for good luck.
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Rictor

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I was born in what was then the First World, and am now living in Canada. I'm among the most privileged in the world, though why that should stop me from caring about all those that are not is beyond me.

 

Offline mikhael

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Why it should make you CARE about them in the first place is beyond me.
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Rictor

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Two reasons. First, is becuase I am partly responsible for their condition. And secondly, because I realize that I could just as easily have been one of them. The fact that I'm not is not through any merit of mine.

also, becuase I reconginze that the "not my tribe, not my problem" as you put it, attitude is going to lead to the ruin of humanity. Naturally, I have no wish to see that happen, so.....
« Last Edit: April 30, 2004, 08:13:44 pm by 644 »

 

Offline Bobboau

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there realy isn't anything to be done, if we feed the people that are there now it will cause a surge in population untill it outstrips the food suply again, then the following population colapse would be even worse, the culture in many parts of the world sais that you are to have as many childeren as posable, wether you can feed them or not, it simply isn't posable to take care of them all, some people are born screwed. becase the culture of the first world tells you that you should make sure you can aford a fammily before you make one, we don't have nearly the problems of hunger as the rest of the world, and untill the rest of the world figures this out there isn't anything that can be done.
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Offline Rictor

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Yeah, well all the countries which are now the First World were exactly like that a century ago. Due to poverty, poor medical treatment, no access to running water etc, the mortality rate is quite high. So if you want to have a family, you need to have a ton of kids. In Britain, America, France and so on, this went away as the people grew more wealthy and parents could count on their children surviving, so they had less of them. I don't see why the same should not apply to the current population boom, mostly happening in China and India. As the people grow more prosperous, the population problem should slow down if not go away altogether. Of course, this is dependant on said countries getting more prosperous, which many people here and in general seem to oppose or at least do nothing to help along.

 

Offline Bobboau

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why should someone here care about someone on the other side of the planet?
sure it would be good, but why should you look down on them for not careing, there is a diference between not helping and hurting
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline an0n

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Yeah, plenty of people would escape. The US, Western Europe, Japan, most of Eastern Europe...the First World. Not only do they control the capital, but they also have sizeable armies to look out for their interests. If there is ever a shortage of resources, you can bet your ass that Americans will be the last to be affected.
Aw, hell no.

America will be the first to be affected. It's one of the downsides of having the most wasteful and most foreign-dependant nation in the world.

If other countries suddenly get poor, they cut their import markets to try and control the situation, then big companies move in to suck up all the cheap labour and 'outsource'. In America, if all the other countries suddenly get poor they also have to cut back on their imports, but due to **** like Minimum Wage and unions you can't get cheap American labour, so no-one would be interested. Thusly, America would have to resort to bolstering its internal economy which is a piece of **** to begin with. Add to this all the greed and 'looking out for number one' that's the foundation of America society and you've got a pretty sorry state of affairs.

Think of it this way: You take a loaf of bread from an Etheopian and he's pissed but he's used to it. You take a loaf of bread from an American and they'll ***** and whine and kick up a fuss on general principle.

THAT's why America would be the first to get ****ed, and by internal dickheadery, if the world economy suddenly went belly-up.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Two reasons. First, is becuase I am partly responsible for their condition. And secondly, because I realize that I could just as easily have been one of them. The fact that I'm not is not through any merit of mine.

I'm not responsible for anyone's condition but my own and the people with whom I interact. Those other humanoid organisms on the other side of the dirt ball? I don't do a thing to affect their condition. You might argue that I interact with organizations that have affected their condition, but that's like arguing that lumberjacks are responsible for murder because someone beats someone else to death with a 2x4. Non seqitr, as the Romans like to say.

I could just as easily been born a cockroach. Actually, given the strict mathematical odds, I had more of a chance to be born a roach, or other arthropod, than I did of being born a mammal, let alone a hominid, or indeed a homo sapien. That doesn't mean I'm going to help them flourish.

All any rational person needs to care about is their segment of the world. Rational self-interest dictates the rest. What this actually boils down to is an exercise left to the reader.

Quote

also, becuase I reconginze that the "not my tribe, not my problem" as you put it, attitude is going to lead to the ruin of humanity. Naturally, I have no wish to see that happen, so.....

The herd needs thinning.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2004, 08:32:30 pm by 440 »
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Rictor

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anon: you may not have noticed, but there is already a resource crisis going on, though not quite of apocolyptic proportions. When people starve to death, ain't got fresh water, thats a crisis. And this is happening to billions of people, by no means a small number. I look at the past and the present, and perdict that any further shortages will not be taken out of the American pot, just like now.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

I'm not responsible for anyone's condition but my own and the people with whom I interact. Those other humanoid organisms on the other side of the dirt ball? I don't do a thing to affect their condition. You might argue that I interact with organizations that have affected their condition, but that's like arguing that lumberjacks are responsible for murder because someone beats someone else to death with a 2x4. Non seqitr, as the Romans like to say.

I could just as easily been born a cockroach. Actually, given the strict mathematical odds, I had more of a chance to be born a roach, or other arthropod, than I did of being born a mammal, let alone a hominid, or indeed a homo sapien. That doesn't mean I'm going to help them flourish.

All any rational person needs to care about is their segment of the world. Rational self-interest dictates the rest. What this actually boils down to is an exercise left to the reader.


Among others things, you are a citizen of the United States and you are a consumer. Those two things are your clearest links to Third World exploitation and suffering.

Unless you disown your country, which I don't think you're doing, you are responsible for the government's actions. Good so far? OK, then we have the US government using its influence (sanctions, trade threats, military threats, debt, media representation etc) to push what is commonly reffered to (though rarely in the States) as neo-liberal economic programs. Countries which are too weak to resist, as most are, really have no choice but to accept. The damage that could be inflicted on them by refusing is just too great. So, under "globalization", several things happen to a country's economy. First, all government works are privatized and sold off at bargain prices. And who buys them? American and British corporations mostly. Another thing that happens is that borders are opened up to free trade. Imports from heavily subsidized foreign nations (First World) flow in, while the local goverment is prevented from subsidizing its own economies under the rules which they accepted. This destroys local industries, who can not compete with foreign imports. You then have a large number of jobless people, who flock to the cities in hopes of finding work there. A massive influx of people creates a large pool of cheap labourers. Wages go down, work conditions worsen. The government, in an effort to attract foreign investors which they believe will get their economy out of the gutter, creates Export Processing Zones (EPZs), which are  factory complexes where foreign companies get a several years (5-10) tax holiday. American corporations (Nike, Walmart, GAP etc etc) use these EPZs as a means of ultra-cheap manufacturing. Materials are brought it, tax free, the workers assemble them, tax free, and the final goods are exported again, tax free. Within the EPZs, local government allow gross violations of labour law, all in an effort to keep the foreign investors. Sometimes, they even use the military to crush unionization attempts. When the 5 year tax holdiay runs out, the American corporations either move to a new country or sign up with a new contractor to get the tax break all over again. The workers are paid so little that they can not contribute to the local economy in any meaningful way. The corporations contribute nothing at all to the economy, so instead of being a give-take relationship as it usually is, it is what amounts to economic plunder. The wages are kept down by competing nations using the low wages as an incentive to attract foreign corporations. A race to the bottom. All this is conductedthrough smany layers of contracting and sub-contracting to excuse the multination corporations from any responsibility.

Thats the first part, thats how you as an American citizen are responsible. As a consumer, its much simpler. You buy the goods which are manufactured by these companies, thus supporting them. At no point do you question their unethical practices. These goods that are produced in sweatshops around the world, they're made for you. A $30 shirt is not made to be bought by an Indonesian making 20 cents an hour.

Furthermore, you defend (as I understand it) the government which allows these corporations to do as they please. The fact that Dubya (and Kerry and most politicians) are feasting at the corporate trough is no secret. Nor is the fact that they consistantly make policy to help their corporate buddies get off the hook.

This is not an abstract link, its quite direct if you think about it. What you are implying, is that might makes right. There is no such this an justice or injustice, because it doesn't concern you.

You can disregard others, so long as your are not actively harming them. If you are, you are responsible.

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Among others things, you are a citizen of the United States and you are a consumer. Those two things are your clearest links to Third World exploitation and suffering.

Ah, so lumberjacks are responsible for murder, yes?

Quote

Unless you disown your country, which I don't think you're doing, you are responsible for the government's actions. Good so far? OK, then we have the US government using its influence (sanctions, trade threats, military threats, debt, media representation etc) to push what is commonly reffered to (though rarely in the States) as neo-liberal economic programs. Countries which are too weak to resist, as most are, really have no choice but to accept. The damage that could be inflicted on them by refusing is just too great. So, under "globalization", several things happen to a country's economy. First, all government works are privatized and sold off at bargain prices. And who buys them? American and British corporations mostly. Another thing that happens is that borders are opened up to free trade. Imports from heavily subsidized foreign nations (First World) flow in, while the local goverment is prevented from subsidizing its own economies under the rules which they accepted. This destroys local industries, who can not compete with foreign imports. You then have a large number of jobless people, who flock to the cities in hopes of finding work there. A massive influx of people creates a large pool of cheap labourers. Wages go down, work conditions worsen. The government, in an effort to attract foreign investors which they believe will get their economy out of the gutter, creates Export Processing Zones (EPZs), which are  factory complexes where foreign companies get a several years (5-10) tax holiday. American corporations (Nike, Walmart, GAP etc etc) use these EPZs as a means of ultra-cheap manufacturing. Materials are brought it, tax free, the workers assemble them, tax free, and the final goods are exported again, tax free. Within the EPZs, local government allow gross violations of labour law, all in an effort to keep the foreign investors. Sometimes, they even use the military to crush unionization attempts. When the 5 year tax holdiay runs out, the American corporations either move to a new country or sign up with a new contractor to get the tax break all over again. The workers are paid so little that they can not contribute to the local economy in any meaningful way. The corporations contribute nothing at all to the economy, so instead of being a give-take relationship as it usually is, it is what amounts to economic plunder. The wages are kept down by competing nations using the low wages as an incentive to attract foreign corporations. A race to the bottom. All this is conductedthrough smany layers of contracting and sub-contracting to excuse the multination corporations from any responsibility.

This is as it should be. The third world exists to provide for whomever can exploit them the most efficiently. Its an excellent system.

Quote

Thats the first part, thats how you as an American citizen are responsible. As a consumer, its much simpler. You buy the goods which are manufactured by these companies, thus supporting them. At no point do you question their unethical practices. These goods that are produced in sweatshops around the world, they're made for you. A $30 shirt is not made to be bought by an Indonesian making 20 cents an hour.

I do question their unethical practices. I wonder, for example, why, if a clothing manufacturer can get piecework done for $.50 I have to pay $30. It really isn't fair. I should only have to pay $10-15. The markup is outrageous.

Quote
Furthermore, you defend (as I understand it) the government which allows these corporations to do as they please. The fact that Dubya (and Kerry and most politicians) are feasting at the corporate trough is no secret. Nor is the fact that they consistantly make policy to help their corporate buddies get off the hook.

This is not an abstract link, its quite direct if you think about it. What you are implying, is that might makes right. There is no such this an justice or injustice, because it doesn't concern you.

You can disregard others, so long as your are not actively harming them. If you are, you are responsible.

Me? Actively harming them? Nope. By your description I am harming them through passivity. Check your logic.

I don't defend the government. I just don't care what they do. I'm content to enjoy the fact that I'm born lucky and other people aren't. Does this hurt my feelings  or make me feel guilty? Nope. They're not people. They're statistics.

Remember, though: justice is blind. All you have to do is slip her the right bribe and she doesn't see anything you do.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2004, 10:39:25 pm by 440 »
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Liberator

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*ROFLMAO as mik emasculates Rictor*
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline mikhael

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I. NEVER. TOUCHED. THAT. BOY. Honest!

You know what they can do with tape these days... It wasn't me. I was digitally editted in after the fact. You gotta believe me, Lib. Honest!
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Offline an0n

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BOY FOR SALE! BOOOOYYY FOR SAAALE!!!!
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline Rictor

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

Ah, so lumberjacks are responsible for murder, yes?


This is as it should be. The third world exists to provide for whomever can exploit them the most efficiently. Its an excellent system.


Just so we're clear. And people wonder why the world hates America.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I do question their unethical practices. I wonder, for example, why, if a clothing manufacturer can get piecework done for $.50 I have to pay $30. It really isn't fair. I should only have to pay $10-15. The markup is outrageous.


Poor thing, they've cheated you. I'll have them sent to a firing squad at once.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Me? Actively harming them? Nope. By your description I am harming them through passivity. Check your logic.


Passivity would imply you have nothing to do with the situation. You're responsible for the actions of your government.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I don't defend the government. I just don't care what they do. I'm content to enjoy the fact that I'm born lucky and other people aren't. Does this hurt my feelings  or make me feel guilty? Nope. They're not people. They're statistics.


Same as #1.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Remember, though: justice is blind. All you have to do is slip her the right bribe and she doesn't see anything you do.


Same as #1.