Author Topic: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists  (Read 13066 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
@Aldo: Bullcrap. The Cartoon Bobb posted makes no mention of any subgroup. Applying your fuzzy logic to the Muslim toons, it should be quite obvious to all involved that the cartoons aren't making fun of Islam in general, but rather the extremists and murderers that claim to practice the teachings of Islam.

And who the hell cares what they're portrayed as in the cartoons? Like the toons aimed at america, those cartoons are made based on the actions of the loudest and most obnoxious group. In this case, thats terrorists, religious fanatics, and crusaders. In our case, it's idiots.

Bobs cartoon depicts an anoynmous, somewhat 50s styled male and female, their nationality identified by a flag.   Bobs has an explicit reference to the anonymous couple being 'born in Middle America', identifying them as a un-defined subgroup.   Furthermore, a retro-styled couple is not generally regarded as a symbol representing of all of America.

The Danish cartoons depict Mohammad, a singular figure who represents the Islamic religion as much as Jesus Christ does Christianity.  The cartoonists associated Islam - the religion and by extension worshippers - with the violence performed by fundamentalists.  That's fine, it's a free expression - but surely it's easy to understand why Muslims would get offended by that association?  Would Americans like being called murderers and crusaders (notwithstanding the justification of such labels) for the actions of their President when they disagree with them?

Bobs cartoon depicts said couple as naive and blindly patriotic - comedic idiots, but scarcely figures of hate.  They're not, for example, celebrating bombing children in Iraq or somesuch (again, bringing back anti-semetic cartoons published in Arab papers as a more relevant analogy).

The more offensive Danish cartoon depicts Mohammed - and again, all followers of the Koran - as an evil murderer and terrorist; the accompanying cartoons added in order to raise even more trouble (i.e. not of the Danish paper) depict a Muslim having sex with a dog, and Mohammad (again, all Muslims being implied in connotation) as a paedophile and pig (akin to being called the devil).  (noting these were added to incense and presented out of context in the 'pig' sense).

Saying 'bullcrap' doesn't really make your statement any more compelling, BTW, it just makes it a tad obnoxious and irritating - which is why I mention it.  And I would think it's possible to see why there is offense, without also feeling such offence, condoning censorship, or violent protesting.

realy now, I thought the charictichers in the cartoon were suposed to be generalisations about Americans, that were a bunch of whit bred idiots more concerned about not haveing our house of cards view of the world knocked down than dealing with reality. there is a bit of that steriotype going around the world these days, yes? well I can't see any qualitative or quantitative diference between showing the steriotypical American patridiot and makeing fun of it verses showing a steriotypical islamist and makeing fun of it.

what is the diference?
also this made me think of something, oftine you'll hear Americans useing words like Islamist, terrorist, islamo-facist, and you'll think 'oh, hes got some racist thing against muslims'. NO these words are used to diferentiate against the normal muslims, when in conversations if someone says 'the muslims' two or three people will stop them and corect them 'oh, no it's not all muslims, just the ones trying to kill us'

I find it interesting you instantly connect 'terrorist' to 'having something against Muslims'. 

And that it's ok to casually refer to 'the Muslims' as 'only the ones trying to kill us'; does that mean non-violent muslims are no longer to be referred to as Muslims? 

Moreso, the annoyance towards terms like (less so) Islamist and islamo-facist is, I believe, because it connotes the religion with being a composite the act when most Muslims abhor that sort of act and don't accept it as justified by their religion.  Effectively you're implying that all Muslims are violent fundamentalists by that connection; if I said "oh, all blacks are thieves... well, just the blacks in jail' or similar, do you really think people would disregard the first, casual statement?  It's the correction that shows the thought 'I'd better say this not to cause offense, even though I don't necessarily believe it', to any casual observers.

 
Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists

Bobs cartoon depicts an anoynmous, somewhat 50s styled male and female, their nationality identified by a flag. Bobs has an explicit reference to the anonymous couple being 'born in Middle America', identifying them as a un-defined subgroup. Furthermore, a retro-styled couple is not generally regarded as a symbol representing of all of America.

You are drawing WAY too much meaning out of simple phrases. It's "having been born in the middle of the North American Landmass," not "Middle America." It has about as much meaning as 'living in the middle of nowhere' (I.E. Not much) so stop trying to portray it as such.

The characters in the cartoon Bob posted are the stereotypical view of the average American. Ignorant, naive, blindly patriotic. It's not a specific, unidentified subgroup (at least, not without MUCH more proof than you've managed to supply).

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The Danish cartoons depict Mohammad, a singular figure who represents the Islamic religion as much as Jesus Christ does Christianity. The cartoonists associated Islam - the religion and by extension worshippers - with the violence performed by fundamentalists. That's fine, it's a free expression - but surely it's easy to understand why Muslims would get offended by that association? Would Americans like being called murderers and crusaders (notwithstanding the justification of such labels) for the actions of their President when they disagree with them?

Lightly offended, perhaps. Not "rioting in the streets, burning Danish flags and killing the odd person" hysterical. And claiming that the cartoons are offensive to all muslims due to association is kinda weak, not even considering that that's only a part of the reason they actually find the toons offensive.

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Bobs cartoon depicts said couple as naive and blindly patriotic - comedic idiots, but scarcely figures of hate. They're not, for example, celebrating bombing children in Iraq or somesuch (again, bringing back anti-semetic cartoons published in Arab papers as a more relevant analogy).

Again, who cares? Loudest, most obnoxious group. Being made fun of. Simple.

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The more offensive Danish cartoon depicts Mohammed - and again, all followers of the Koran - as an evil murderer and terrorist; the accompanying cartoons added in order to raise even more trouble (i.e. not of the Danish paper) depict a Muslim having sex with a dog, and Mohammad (again, all Muslims being implied in connotation) as a paedophile and pig (akin to being called the devil). (noting these were added to incense and presented out of context in the 'pig' sense).

Mohammed /= All followers of the Koran. Mohammed just happened to be extremely unlucky in that the Islamic extremists tend to tout him as their figurehead.

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I find it interesting you instantly connect 'terrorist' to 'having something against Muslims'.

You shouldn't. It's not that hard a leap to make for most people, considering the terrorists that most people know of tend to be Muslim.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists
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I find it interesting you instantly connect 'terrorist' to 'having something against Muslims'.

You shouldn't. It's not that hard a leap to make for most people, considering the terrorists that most people know of tend to be Muslim.

And would you say that in the 1970s the word 'terrorist' meant 'having something against Irish'?
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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists
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I find it interesting you instantly connect 'terrorist' to 'having something against Muslims'.

You shouldn't. It's not that hard a leap to make for most people, considering the terrorists that most people know of tend to be Muslim.

And would you say that in the 1970s the word 'terrorist' meant 'having something against Irish'?

Pretty much. Back then, they were the prime example of it in the media. Now, it's Muslim extremists.

It's all relative. The point is you shouldn't be surprised nowadays if people associate Muslims with terrorists.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 01:55:05 am by Jetmech Jr. »
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris

You are drawing WAY too much meaning out of simple phrases. It's "having been born in the middle of the North American Landmass," not "Middle America." It has about as much meaning as 'living in the middle of nowhere' (I.E. Not much) so stop trying to portray it as such.

The characters in the cartoon Bob posted are the stereotypical view of the average American. Ignorant, naive, blindly patriotic. It's not a specific, unidentified subgroup (at least, not without MUCH more proof than you've managed to supply).


Who are you to decide what is 'way too much meaning' to draw?  I'm in the UK, why the hell am I not allowed to have a view of what is a stereotypical American (or american subgroup) or not?  In fact, isn't a foreigner better equipped to recognise stereotypes of an entire place than the place itself?  Or are we uneducated foreigners unable to comprehend that maybe there are a lot of disparate political, social, ethnic, cultural groups in the US despite the reams of media we get imported over?

Moreso, it's pretty damn obvious what 'born in the middle of the North American landmass means'; not only is the term 'Middle America' a widely known one derivative of the basic Middle #### term reflecting a reactionary middle class 'traditional' group within a country (i.e. Middle England), it's also equally of satirical value in that it ignores that North America is more than one country.  Furthermore the waving US flags also have just a hint of what country is being referred to, not to mention the mention of a controversial President.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a continent is a little more specific than 'nowhere'.  I'm in the north-west of the British Isles with a Scottish flag waving behind me - does that mean you have absolutely no inkling whatsoever where I might possibly be?  Could I be, ooh, in Japan?  In Spain?  In Mexico?  In 'nowhere'?

Lightly offended, perhaps. Not "rioting in the streets, burning Danish flags and killing the odd person" hysterical. And claiming that the cartoons are offensive to all muslims due to association is kinda weak, not even considering that that's only a part of the reason they actually find the toons offensive.

I never said it justified violence - in fact, I said that it didn't.  All I wanted, was for you to understand the reasons for being offended, not to justify the expression of that from a vocal minority, nor to condone using it as a basis for censorship. 

I think, in fact, I've said that 3 times very explicitly - what you need to realise is that you can defend the right of free speech whilst also being able to question whether something that was said was right to be said.  There is a responsibility in free speech, of not to incite violence or hatred without a very,very good reason for it.  I can defend the right to publish those cartoons, even whilst saying it was an insensitive action.  I can say they were rather daft for publishing those cartoons, yet defend their right to publish them as part of our intrinsic freedoms.  I can understand the offense they cause, without justifying either the violent expression of that offense or calling for legislation to prevent it.

Again, who cares? Loudest, most obnoxious group. Being made fun of. Simple.

The 'who cares' being evident of the fundmental inanity of your 'simple' conclusion. Presumably being called an 'evil bastard' always has the same meaning regardless of the tone of voice used?  Being made fun of is different to being called paedophiles (or worshippers of), etc.  Calling me a 'dumbass' is a lot less offensive than calling me 'evil', a 'child molester' or even 'racist'.  Saying I'm an idiot who naively allowed something bad to happen is less insulting than saying I perpetrated that act.

Mohammed /= All followers of the Koran. Mohammed just happened to be extremely unlucky in that the Islamic extremists tend to tout him as their figurehead.
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Muhammad is Gods final prophet in Islam; sent to guide humanity and to act as the voice of God (Allah) in establishing Islam and writing the verses that form the Koran.  This means that Muhammad is a literal representative of God, and to insult him is commonly regarded as insulting Allah and hence the entire religion; many hard-line Islamic states regard criticism of Muhammad as blasphemy.

You shouldn't. It's not that hard a leap to make for most people, considering the terrorists that most people know of tend to be Muslim.

FARC, ETA, IRA/PIRA/Real IRA, UVF, Black Hand, Bader-Meinhof......

I believe most Muslims don't consider those terrorist to be Muslims; that suicide (i.e.bombing), for example, is totally unacceptable within the Koran.  And I'd imagine that having that sort of moderate viewpoint ignored, and your belief system presented without questioning as a source and perpretator of violence is a rather insulting thing to happen.  When we have a situation where people quite willingly accept, as here, the reference of an entire religion as criminals... well, that offends me, and I'm not even a muslim.  Is it any more right for 'the Irish' to become synonymous with terrorist for the IRA?  For 'the Columbians' to be synonymous with drug dealers and kidnappers?

Or do we just accept blind racial stereotyping and the eventual racism that results, because we can cling to a few straws of justification?

 
Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists

Who are you to decide what is 'way too much meaning' to draw? I'm in the UK, why the hell am I not allowed to have a view of what is a stereotypical American (or american subgroup) or not? In fact, isn't a foreigner better equipped to recognise stereotypes of an entire place than the place itself? Or are we uneducated foreigners unable to comprehend that maybe there are a lot of disparate political, social, ethnic, cultural groups in the US despite the reams of media we get imported over?

Oh, way to throw a hissy fit. Remember what I said about drawing to much out of a simple phrase? Well, you did it again. Of course when I say you're seeing too much in something, I mean your uneducated (because, after all, you're a foreigner :rolleyes:).
And no, being from another country does NOT make you instantly better suited to judge such things. You think because your part of one of the MANY groups that targets us, you have the authority? Hah.

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Moreso, it's pretty damn obvious what 'born in the middle of the North American landmass means'; not only is the term 'Middle America' a widely known one derivative of the basic Middle #### term reflecting a reactionary middle class 'traditional' group within a country (i.e. Middle England), it's also equally of satirical value in that it ignores that North America is more than one country. Furthermore the waving US flags also have just a hint of what country is being referred to, not to mention the mention of a controversial President.

Of course it's obvious it's making fun of the U.S., but since when were people living in the U.S. an "unidentified Subgroup?"

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but a continent is a little more specific than 'nowhere'. I'm in the north-west of the British Isles with a Scottish flag waving behind me - does that mean you have absolutely no inkling whatsoever where I might possibly be? Could I be, ooh, in Japan? In Spain? In Mexico? In 'nowhere'?
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The Cartoon doesn't just specify a continent, it quite clearly targets the U.S.'s populace. It makes no further distinction.

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I never said it justified violence - in fact, I said that it didn't. All I wanted, was for you to understand the reasons for being offended, not to justify the expression of that from a vocal minority, nor to condone using it as a basis for censorship.

I think, in fact, I've said that 3 times very explicitly - what you need to realise is that you can defend the right of free speech whilst also being able to question whether something that was said was right to be said. There is a responsibility in free speech, of not to incite violence or hatred without a very,very good reason for it. I can defend the right to publish those cartoons, even whilst saying it was an insensitive action. I can say they were rather daft for publishing those cartoons, yet defend their right to publish them as part of our intrinsic freedoms. I can understand the offense they cause, without justifying either the violent expression of that offense or calling for legislation to prevent it.

Fair enough. I never denied it. I merely called you out on your claim that Bobb's cartoon targetted a specific subgroup while the Muslim cartoons were meant to be representations of the entire Islamic religon.

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The 'who cares' being evident of the fundmental inanity of your 'simple' conclusion. Presumably being called an 'evil bastard' always has the same meaning regardless of the tone of voice used? Being made fun of is different to being called paedophiles (or worshippers of), etc. Calling me a 'dumbass' is a lot less offensive than calling me 'evil', a 'child molester' or even 'racist'. Saying I'm an idiot who naively allowed something bad to happen is less insulting than saying I perpetrated that act.

No, "who cares" being meant to underline the fact that the Cartoons are not meant to represent ALL of the followers of Islam.

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Muhammad is Gods final prophet in Islam; sent to guide humanity and to act as the voice of God (Allah) in establishing Islam and writing the verses that form the Koran. This means that Muhammad is a literal representative of God, and to insult him is commonly regarded as insulting Allah and hence the entire religion; many hard-line Islamic states regard criticism of Muhammad as blasphemy.

Thats their problem. No one elses.

Well, at least, not until they make it everyone else's problems.

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FARC, ETA, IRA/PIRA/Real IRA, UVF, Black Hand, Bader-Meinhof......

I believe most Muslims don't consider those terrorist to be Muslims; that suicide (i.e.bombing), for example, is totally unacceptable within the Koran. And I'd imagine that having that sort of moderate viewpoint ignored, and your belief system presented without questioning as a source and perpretator of violence is a rather insulting thing to happen. When we have a situation where people quite willingly accept, as here, the reference of an entire religion as criminals... well, that offends me, and I'm not even a muslim. Is it any more right for 'the Irish' to become synonymous with terrorist for the IRA? For 'the Columbians' to be synonymous with drug dealers and kidnappers?

Or do we just accept blind racial stereotyping and the eventual racism that results, because we can cling to a few straws of justification?
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It hardly matters. They call themselves Muslim, so that's what the world will call them. There's not much that can be done in that regard.

And I DID NOT SAY ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS. I said most people hear the term terrorists, and nowadays associate it with Muslims. Why? Because their extremists are the most current, obvious example. Did I say it's right to stereotype them that way? NO. I said don't be surprised by it.
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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists
On a more lighthearted note:

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/295289


*Does not accurately demonstrate my views, but is funny non-the-less*
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
I still see gaping inconsistency here. People are calling these cartoons offensive because they ridicule the negative aspects of Islam, but people do the same thing all the time with Christianity, and I don't hear the same people calling that offensive. WHAT GIVES?
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Offline vyper

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
As I've said before, they tend to blow less things up.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
Oh, way to throw a hissy fit. Remember what I said about drawing to much out of a simple phrase? Well, you did it again. Of course when I say you're seeing too much in something, I mean your uneducated (because, after all, you're a foreigner :rolleyes:).
And no, being from another country does NOT make you instantly better suited to judge such things. You think because your part of one of the MANY groups that targets us, you have the authority? Hah.

This is interesting.  Because I contend with something you said, it becomes a) a 'hissy fit' and b) 'targeting' you?  The issue of better, I would note - and I would hope it is implicit - is that a stereotype you feel is directed at you has a very different effect than a stereotype directed at someone else; that you can't pick an choose a national stereotype, and thus the way the rest of the world stereotypes you.  So whether or not a stereotype applies to a certain group perhaps is not best judged by that group, but by an external factor; for example, I see Groundskeeper Willie in the Simpsons and it quite often seems pretty insulting, etc - but that's because I'm defensive of my own nationality and identity.


Of course it's obvious it's making fun of the U.S., but since when were people living in the U.S. an "unidentified Subgroup?"

Actually, it's making fun of a specific group of, for lack of a better term, insulated middle-America group who are blindly patriotic and unquestioning (rather than, say protestors, or hispanics, etc), but exactly who encompasses that group is very much in the eye of the beholder.  For example, here you take it to refer to all of the United States populace and I, admittedly an outsider, clearly interpret it to be referring to very specific group of political views (albeit one whose members are not explicitly specified as whether being all Americans, middle-Americans, all white, what social class, etc).  Of course, the lack of having the same perception is in itself illustrative of the difficulties of considering how different cultures can be offended; the US and UK are about as similar as 2 nations can be in cultural terms, yet clearly there's a vast difference of opinion in what that (Bobs) cartoon 'attacks' and how badly.


The Cartoon doesn't just specify a continent, it quite clearly targets the U.S.'s populace. It makes no further distinction.

So, it clearly says US, clearly says the middle of the North American continent, and yet doesn't actually refer to the oft used 'middle America'?  Tres bizarre.


Fair enough. I never denied it. I merely called you out on your claim that Bobb's cartoon targetted a specific subgroup while the Muslim cartoons were meant to be representations of the entire Islamic religon.

No, "who cares" being meant to underline the fact that the Cartoons are not meant to represent ALL of the followers of Islam.
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Thats their problem. No one elses.

Well, at least, not until they make it everyone else's problems.

Again, this is exactly what I mean by needing to consider other cultures.  You see, just above you're saying it's not representative of their religion - and yet here you're saying it's their problem for actually holding it as representative of their religion. 

Surely you see the contradiction - you're effectively stating you can define the boundaries of what represents a fairly large cultural group, and what they should identify with, despite being not of that religion.  You say 'it's their problem' that their religion is setup such as Muhammad is representative of God / Allah; so presumably we don't have to take any interest into other cultures when communicating? So any time the Islamic world takes offence, we can easily blame it on them?

What is it, cartoonists asked to draw pictures of their view of Muhammad have no idea whatsoever of the meaning of that figure?  That in itself is worrying when it comes to cross-cultural understanding.

And, of course, I don't believe I've ever said the Danish paper (gah, keep forgetting the name) intended to insult - that'd be a purely assumptive conclusion to make, and the least likely in reality.  However, that doesn't mean they didn't insult either, that it wasn't a bad idea and is free from criticism.


It hardly matters. They call themselves Muslim, so that's what the world will call them. There's not much that can be done in that regard.

And I DID NOT SAY ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS. I said most people hear the term terrorists, and nowadays associate it with Muslims. Why? Because their extremists are the most current, obvious example. Did I say it's right to stereotype them that way? NO. I said don't be surprised by it.

And that association is clearly wrong and breeds descrimination, intolerance and secterianism.  That's completely my point, and thats why people get offended.  What surprises me, is that it's used in the term of discussing how said cartoons aren't labelling all Muslims as terrorists, and yet we have this clear and explicit connotation of exactly that just being accepted as ok because 'some' are; and that some (all, most likely) aren't even accepted as following Islam in these actions by moderate Muslims.

The IRA called themselves 'Irish patriots' - should we have called them that, rather than murderers they are?  The likes of Hamas claim suicide bombing Israelis is justified in the interests of freedom for Palestine - do we accept that without question?  Do we just take the labels terrorists use to justify themselves and accept them blindly now? 

More importantly, what's wrong with 'extremist'?  Why does it have to be Muslim terrorist, Islamic terror groups?  Is it not simply because it's easier to label these things in that way, blame them on a religion, than realise every human creed has the capacity for great evil?  Not to mention these labels just hurt in the long run - we insult the moderate Muslims by implying their religion is terrorist, and breed violence because our attempts to deal with said groups can be easily be characterised as crusading against Islam.  So it hurts both ways.

But that's kind of beside the point.  Do you understand why Muslims could be upset by the cartoons, both the published and faked?  Because ultimately, that's all that matters - the understanding... because we're not all supposed to act the same way, are we?

I still see gaping inconsistency here. People are calling these cartoons offensive because they ridicule the negative aspects of Islam, but people do the same thing all the time with Christianity, and I don't hear the same people calling that offensive. WHAT GIVES?

Cultural differences, primarily.  The Muslim world increasingly feels under attack by the Christian (western) world, lacks much of the same freedoms of expression and democracy (i.e. other outlets for anger), and that creates a situation that is more volatile.  I think, though, the real difference is the scale; there have been similar reactions in the UK by (minority elements of) the Sikh and Christian community due to offensive plays in the UK, but it's not been a cross-national phenomenon.  Of course, this may in part be reflected by the Middle East itself being artificially divided by the imperial powers of the 1900s, so there's perhaps more of a cross-national 'culture' than, say, across the UK and France would have.  Also the 'Christian world' is increasingly secular and/or aetheistic, and Christianity in general is a less life and culture dominating religion than Islam (based on what I've been told by Muslims).

Albeit I'd note a large part of the whole offense is that what's being ridiculed, is something many Muslims reject as being an aspect of Islam - terrorism being one.   There's, of course, an interesting hypocracy between this and the publication of anti-semitic cartoons in the Arab world, which I wish a politician would/had addressed.

I don't know of any cartoons, though, publlished in national newspapers depicting Jesus as killing children or somesuch in Iraq.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists
I?ll gove you an example of the depths this problem can go into...

A cartoon came out in a Croatain paper.

Jeses, in rags like a drunk or a bum, sitting behind a table and saying to Mohamned (who sits next ot him but we do not see him in the picture) "You know Mohamed, sometimes I envy you for how your people act."

This was clearly ment to be satiric - showing how the Christian world is too unsensitive and too far out of touch with it's religion. the artist himself tough that the cartoon isn't offensive.
However, there were protest letters sent to the newspaper saying that showing Christ as adunkard & weak (basicly a loser) is highly insulting - amd indeed, it somehow is.

*Note that any comparison between Mohamed nad Jeses is flawed - Mohammed was a man, with all the flaws and imperfections that come with it (like St. Peter), while Jeus is the son of God*

See the problem?It is impossible to write or draw ANYTHING regarding a sensiive subject without insulting someone. This is becosue different people wil lgive different meaning to what you write/draw, and see things that aren't tehre (or are they?).

This is one thing I mayself am unsure of.. Where does the freedom of speech and news end and the insult begin? Who can determine that?
It' is clear that no one organization or person can - it's largely individual.

While one can say that Christians are too quiet when it comes to insulting their religion, it is only partialyl true, as following Christs teachings, it would be wrong to forbid it... after all, Christ didn't stop the ones who spread lies and vicious accusations again him...he didn't stop his captors and torturers..he did not curse them and deman theri punishemt - in fact, quite the contrary - "bless those who curse you".
So this is (partially) becoause of it..alltough I personally think we went ot far and shoudl really start to speak out againts such things more often..
 
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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists
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This is interesting.  Because I contend with something you said, it becomes a) a 'hissy fit' and b) 'targeting' you?  The issue of better, I would note - and I would hope it is implicit - is that a stereotype you feel is directed at you has a very different effect than a stereotype directed at someone else; that you can't pick an choose a national stereotype, and thus the way the rest of the world stereotypes you.  So whether or not a stereotype applies to a certain group perhaps is not best judged by that group, but by an external factor; for example, I see Groundskeeper Willie in the Simpsons and it quite often seems pretty insulting, etc - but that's because I'm defensive of my own nationality and identity.

It's phrases like this:

" I'm in the UK, why the hell am I not allowed to have a view of what is a stereotypical American (or american subgroup) or not?"

And this:

"Or are we uneducated foreigners unable to comprehend that maybe there are a lot of disparate political, social, ethnic, cultural groups in the US despite the reams of media we get imported over?"

That make it come off as a hissy fit. Not because you're arguing a point, but because you seem to be TRYING to take offense to what I say, and are getting up in arms over it, despite the fact that I never intended that or said anything to imply it.

And while the people who are targeted by a stereotype may not be the best to judge, that doesn't mean the people making fun of the said stereotype are on better footing.

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Actually, it's making fun of a specific group of, for lack of a better term, insulated middle-America group who are blindly patriotic and unquestioning (rather than, say protestors, or hispanics, etc), but exactly who encompasses that group is very much in the eye of the beholder.  For example, here you take it to refer to all of the United States populace and I, admittedly an outsider, clearly interpret it to be referring to very specific group of political views (albeit one whose members are not explicitly specified as whether being all Americans, middle-Americans, all white, what social class, etc).  Of course, the lack of having the same perception is in itself illustrative of the difficulties of considering how different cultures can be offended; the US and UK are about as similar as 2 nations can be in cultural terms, yet clearly there's a vast difference of opinion in what that (Bobs) cartoon 'attacks' and how badly.

I.E. the point is unarguable, as it's entirely subject to interpretation. Great.

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Again, this is exactly what I mean by needing to consider other cultures.  You see, just above you're saying it's not representative of their religion - and yet here you're saying it's their problem for actually holding it as representative of their religion. 

Surely you see the contradiction - you're effectively stating you can define the boundaries of what represents a fairly large cultural group, and what they should identify with, despite being not of that religion.  You say 'it's their problem' that their religion is setup such as Muhammad is representative of God / Allah; so presumably we don't have to take any interest into other cultures when communicating? So any time the Islamic world takes offence, we can easily blame it on them?

What? I'm only saying that they're causing their own problems by assuming that these cartoons automatically apply to them, merely because they contain images of someone they revere.

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I don't know of any cartoons, though, publlished in national newspapers depicting Jesus as killing children or somesuch in Iraq

Uhm...I may have missed one, but I don't recall any of the danish cartoons featuring anything like THAT...
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
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It's phrases like this:

" I'm in the UK, why the hell am I not allowed to have a view of what is a stereotypical American (or american subgroup) or not?"

And this:

"Or are we uneducated foreigners unable to comprehend that maybe there are a lot of disparate political, social, ethnic, cultural groups in the US despite the reams of media we get imported over?"

That make it come off as a hissy fit. Not because you're arguing a point, but because you seem to be TRYING to take offense to what I say, and are getting up in arms over it, despite the fact that I never intended that or said anything to imply it.

Well, did you expect me to react nice and politely to '@Aldo: Bullcrap' and 'applying your fuzzy logic to the Muslim toons' (begin strawman here)?  Essentially I feel you're calling me an idiot for my opinion - without any real justification for it - and, well, I tend not to react politely to that.  Dictating what should be obvious to me and soforth.  Doesn't make aldo a happy bunny, oh no.

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And while the people who are targeted by a stereotype may not be the best to judge, that doesn't mean the people making fun of the said stereotype are on better footing.

Making fun?

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What? I'm only saying that they're causing their own problems by assuming that these cartoons automatically apply to them, merely because they contain images of someone they revere.

Didn't you just assume a cartoon referred to all Americans because it shown the US flag and mentioned the North American continent?

Are we supposed to ignore another culture in considering actions directed at them?  It seems to me that if we're to debate the appropriateness of a cultural response, we have to understand that culture, not blame them for the key differences that cause their different response.  'Merely' would seem to be somewhat a misleading term, too - in fact it's the root of misunderstanding, by mischaracterising the depth of belief and emotion surrounding the religion based on our somewhat secular context.

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Uhm...I may have missed one, but I don't recall any of the danish cartoons featuring anything like THAT...

(firstly, that was perhaps poorly phrased as an analogy; it wouldn't have to directly depict it, but present a comment that directly or indirectly does so)

By implication as depicting Muslims as violent terrorists; the most famous, the turban as bomb, essentially analogues Islam as a ticking timebomb.  There's another one, IIRC, depicting Muhammad as a fairly evil looking, menacing and violent guy with a huge knife which can be said to have a similar effect.

Additionally, including the far more offensive 3 cartoons that were portrayed - falsely - as being published in the Danish papers; bear in mind this is relating to the reasons for offense, not the correctness of directing it; I don't believe that there's any sense whatsoever in attacking a country (be it by boycotts, flag burning or attacks on embassies), of course, but a lot of those protesting most violently would have been lead to believe said cartoons would Danish. 

 
Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terrorists
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Well, did you expect me to react nice and politely to '@Aldo: Bullcrap' and 'applying your fuzzy logic to the Muslim toons' (begin strawman here)?  Essentially I feel you're calling me an idiot for my opinion - without any real justification for it - and, well, I tend not to react politely to that.  Dictating what should be obvious to me and soforth.  Doesn't make aldo a happy bunny, oh no.

Point, and my apologies, though in my defense, I will point out that I did not misconstrue what you were saying there into an insult against myself.

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Making fun?

Yes, that's generally what you do when you portray stereotypes in things like cartoons. Mock, poke fun at, etc.

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Didn't you just assume a cartoon referred to all Americans because it shown the US flag and mentioned the North American continent?

Are we supposed to ignore another culture in considering actions directed at them?  It seems to me that if we're to debate the appropriateness of a cultural response, we have to understand that culture, not blame them for the key differences that cause their different response.  'Merely' would seem to be somewhat a misleading term, too - in fact it's the root of misunderstanding, by mischaracterising the depth of belief and emotion surrounding the religion based on our somewhat secular context.

The Main difference as I saw it was that the U.S. toon depicted a pair of generic nobodies. whereas the danish toons depicted a specific person.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
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Yes, that's generally what you do when you portray stereotypes in things like cartoons. Mock, poke fun at, etc.

It is?  You mean like this? (NB: this is far, far more offensive than the Danish toons, of course, and I'm not claiming the two are anywhere near equivalent - in fact I'd like to mention the fundamental hypocracy here, in these states being willing to post this stuff - it's filth,  really -  and note that not a single western politician seems to have mentioned it when they bloody well should have).

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The Main difference as I saw it was that the U.S. toon depicted a pair of generic nobodies. whereas the danish toons depicted a specific person.

Who was representative of a religion (or, specifically, a figure representative of God in said religion and revered as the orignator of Gods words in that religions holy book).
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 06:37:27 pm by aldo_14 »

 

Offline vyper

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
Those cartoons are intersting. I actually find the one with the Jewish character with a nazi sword in his back, stabbing the arab with a star of david sword, rather intriguing.

It seems like genuine political commentary that explores the effect the holocaust had on the future behaviour of Israel - perhaps the toon was designed to fly under the radar of the arab powers-that-be. Or perhaps I'm giving the author too much credit.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
The IRA called themselves 'Irish patriots' - should we have called them that, rather than murderers they are?  Do we just take the labels terrorists use to justify themselves and accept them blindly now? 

Necessary qualifier: The IRA called themselves Catholic Irish patriots. And that they were/are Catholic was generally accepted. Hamas calls themselves Muslim Palestinian freedom fighters. And that are Muslim is generally accepted. Religious labels=other labels? No. Not going to fly. Why I don't know, but it doesn't.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
The IRA called themselves 'Irish patriots' - should we have called them that, rather than murderers they are?  Do we just take the labels terrorists use to justify themselves and accept them blindly now? 

Necessary qualifier: The IRA called themselves Catholic Irish patriots. And that they were/are Catholic was generally accepted. Hamas calls themselves Muslim Palestinian freedom fighters. And that are Muslim is generally accepted. Religious labels=other labels? No. Not going to fly. Why I don't know, but it doesn't.

I don't ever recall the IRA calling themselves Catholic in any public statement on the British news.  In fact, I'm 99.9% sure they never did, for the simple fact that only way they could preserve support would be not to do so; I doubt they'd receive much funding from donors in the US and Ireland if they were dedicated to eradicting protestants from either Eire or Northern Ireland.  Whilst the IRA used sectarianism as justification, and committed sectarian acts of terror, their expressed ideology was always to style themselves as national patriots and freeom fighters, not religious extremists; I can't think of a single statement, ever, where the IRA attributed their crimes to being down to Gods' will, which is the identification we use in demarcating religious terrorist organisations.

 

Offline vyper

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
Think of it this way: How many of them were Protestant?
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Cartoon Protesters threaten to become Terroris
Think of it this way: How many of them were Protestant?

EDIT; actually, that last reply was at a tangent (so I've removed it and added this). 

The point is that the IRA have always presented themselves as justified by being 'Irish patriots', not as justified by Catholicism or God.  Same way that the likes of Al-Queda justify themselves as being supported by Islam.  If we accept that Al-Queda are justified by Islam - which we do by taking that as a label without questioning - then surely we have to also accept labelling the IRA by their justification of being freedom fighters.  When really, the only label they need is 'murdering bastards'.

The problem with 'Islamic terrorist group' for Muslims is that it makes Islam synonymous with terrorism, without questioning or noting that terrorist ideology is a perverted form at best.  We would make the same assumption if we labelled the IRA by their own justifications, and would be inherently applying a stereotype that Irish patriotism amounts to killing innocents.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 10:19:20 am by aldo_14 »