[Nuclear1]

Again, my question is about who really owns the land if people can come in and kick you off of it?

The United States of America owns it in the end.  Unless you want to start your own country, the land you live on inside these borders belongs to the USA.  You are just renting it.

It's not communism, it's being part of a community.  Or has selfishness really gone THAT far?

I guess it doesn't occur to you that the word communism is obviously based off of the word community.

Don't insult my intelligence.

For one, not everything about communism is evil.  Two, being part of a community is just as American as apple pie.  

And my whole rant isn't about selfishness.

Yes, it is.  

You want something for yourself without having any responsibility to the people around you.  That's selfishness.  You can scream "taxes are evil" till the day you die, but fact is, it goes to help the people around you.  You don't pay that, you're just being selfish.

I'm not in here for talking about taxes. I did not display being totally retarded concerning what taxes are used for either. All i did was not talk about what the taxes get used for. I'm after something more juicy.

Dude, the whole thread is called  property taxes.  The whole thread started about you complaining about having to pay them, and then irrationally screaming "COMMUNISM!" when that's got absolutely nothing to do with it. 

Live in this country, play by its lawful rules.  Property taxes have been around since the USA was founded.  It's a responsibility.

[Solatar]

yeah, cause last time I didn't pay my electricity bill they came and confiscated my electronics.

Me too! Although at the time I thought it was a robber who took them.

[Kosh]

That's like saying your computer doesn't belong to you because you need to pay for the electricity service to run it.

yeah, cause last time I didn't pay my electricity bill they came and confiscated my electronics.

No, instead they cut off your power so you can't use your computer anymore. Same effect really.

[MP-Ryan]

I guess it doesn't occur to you that the word communism is obviously based off of the word community.

In point of fact it's not, but you haven't let facts get in the way of your foolishness so far, so why start now?

If you look at residential land titles (I'm positive that you haven't), you'll find that the majority are listed as "Fee Simple" estates, and virtually always exempt mineral rights.  Fee simple grants the owner of the title absolute ownership over the property to transfer title and undertake what s/he pleases on it, subject to the legal obligations imposed upon the owner by governing authorities.  Those authorities consist of the municipality up to and including the federal government.  Here's an excerpt from the legal title for my property (identifying details removed, naturally):

Code: [Select]

LEGAL DESCRIPTION
PLAN 0325486
BLOCK 17
LOT 71
EXCEPTING THEREOUT ALL MINES AND MINERALS

ESTATE: FEE SIMPLE
ATS REFERENCE: X;X;X;X;SW

MUNICIPALITY: TOWN OF X

REFERENCE NUMBER: XXX XXX XXX

Among the legal obligations imposed upon the owner is the obligation to pay property taxes.  It is not a rent - the property title remains in the name of the landowner.  The provisions for seizure are not arbitrary or discretionary.  Rather, seizure is a penalty imposed by the governing body for a failure to meet one's legal obligations.

Just as you can go to jail for failure to pay income tax under federal legislation, other government bodies have the right to seize real property for non-payment of legally-imposed taxes.  As it is technically a crime to fail to pay a legally-imposed tax, the law has provisions for penalties or recompense.

You own the land - but legal ownership comes with both rights and responsibilities.  You have absolute legal right to possession of your property, but you have legal obligations to pay the taxes owed.  If you do not pay them, you can be stripped of the legal title to the property as a penalty/compensation.  This is no different than the legal right to liberty - if you fail to meet your responsibilities (to obey the law) you can be stripped of that right and be incarcerated.

[Bobboau]

No, instead they cut off your power so you can't use your computer anymore. Same effect really.

no that's a completely different situation, it is in no way analogous. in one situation you lose property in another you loose access to a resource needed to operate said property. just because it is inoperable does not mean that you no longer have ownership of it, they are completely orthogonal concepts.

[redsniper]

Anything is only owned so far as one can defend it. So yeah, the only way you could 100% completely OWN a piece of land would be if you could kill or otherwise dissuade anyone who would try to take it from you.

[Nuke]

its simple, buy property, buy nukes, claim yourself a sovereign state with a nuclear arsenal.

[S-99]

That's like saying your computer doesn't belong to you because you need to pay for the electricity service to run it.

You still own your computer in the end. Might not be usable, but it was not taken from you.

Don't insult my intelligence.

For one, not everything about communism is evil.  Two, being part of a community is just as American as apple pie.  

Not really trying to insult your intelligence. I just thought the word usage you used for that sentence was funny. And i am not equating being in a community with communism. I was noting on the word usage, because this

It's not communism, it's being part of a community.

was sort of funny to read. It sparked my imagination and the imagery was someone in self denial about being a communist telling themselves while staring in the mirror repeatedly This was random of me.

You want something for yourself without having any responsibility to the people around you.  That's selfishness.  You can scream "taxes are evil" till the day you die, but fact is, it goes to help the people around you.  You don't pay that, you're just being selfish.

This is not about being selfishness. It's about purely who owns the land in the end. This is a discussion. It's not about my current affairs or how i plan to rebel in the future. I'm not screaming taxes are evil either. I have expressed not really liking the whole illusion to ownership for land mainly because i think ownership should reflect what owning something actually is.

Dude, the whole thread is called  property taxes.  The whole thread started about you complaining about having to pay them, and then irrationally screaming "COMMUNISM!" when that's got absolutely nothing to do with it.  

You can blame me for not picking a better title and irrationally saying communism. Land ownership would have been a better title. Not the first time i could have picked a better title I'm only complaining about the taxes for what they represent when someone has purchased a plot of land; not taxes in general.

But, thx for answering the question.

In point of fact it's not, but you haven't let facts get in the way of your foolishness so far, so why start now?

Community....communism. I see a similarity here. I was thinking more about the word commune after community and communism were used in the same sentence which i thought was funny.

Among the legal obligations imposed upon the owner is the obligation to pay property taxes.  It is not a rent - the property title remains in the name of the landowner.

My point is that property taxes can be thought of as rent. And if thought they are thought of as rent. Then who really owns the land? For myself, i think of property taxes as rent.

[Ghostavo]

The word communism comes from common, which is also the origin for the word community.

[Bobboau]

I thought it came from the fact that everything is supposed to be communally owned in a communist society.

[Mefustae]

My point is that property taxes can be thought of as rent. And if thought they are thought of as rent. Then who really owns the land? For myself, i think of property taxes as rent.

Yes, it can be presented as a similar situation to "paying rent", but only because the theory of "renting" has such a broad and simple definition that it can be applied to many things completely unrelated to the true meaning as we use it.

As MP-Ryan very effectively pointed out:

You own the land - but legal ownership comes with both rights and responsibilities.  You have absolute legal right to possession of your property, but you have legal obligations to pay the taxes owed.  If you do not pay them, you can be stripped of the legal title to the property as a penalty/compensation.  This is no different than the legal right to liberty - if you fail to meet your responsibilities (to obey the law) you can be stripped of that right and be incarcerated.

So, S-99, by extending your argument to the realm of common law, we don't even own ourselves. We pay "rent" by acting in a fashion as outlined by our government. When we fail to make that rent, and act in a manner contravening said outlines, we are stripped of our freedom and our persons are "repossessed" and placed in a correctional institution. From this, we can conclude - using the very same logic you have demonstrated - that we cannot truly claim ownership over our own lives. Indeed, it would seem that our very existence is allowed only at the sufferance of our own respective governments, and hence, the rest of humanity.

I'm not entirely sure whether  or not that makes sense whatsoever, but I was just trying to demonstrate how the question of true ownership, at any level, can be shoehorned into bloody well anywhere!

[StarSlayer]

To be fair, you need to be delinquent for three years.  Plus if you file for bankruptcy I believe the gov't will not foreclose your property.  So really if you're truly unable to pay property taxes your house isn't just going to be snapped up by the county treasurer.  If you can pay and you've decided not to, then you've been receiving gov't services without paying your due, there are consequences.

[MP-Ryan]

Community....communism. I see a similarity here. I was thinking more about the word commune after community and communism were used in the same sentence which i thought was funny.

Word similarity does not equate with etymology.  For one, the original term was written in German and Communism is the closest translation in English.  Both community and Communism derive a root from the word commun, derived in turn from the Old French term comun, which actually has a meaning closely equivalent in definition to the English word "common."  So while community and Communism share a root, one is not based upon the other, and they are not even terribly similar in meaning.

My point is that property taxes can be thought of as rent. And if thought they are thought of as rent. Then who really owns the land? For myself, i think of property taxes as rent.

If you're unfamiliar with the actual concept of rent and its historical use then I suppose one could call it rent, but that's the equivalent of being unfamiliar with the actual concept of community and its historical use and calling it Communism.  See what I did there?

Sure, if you ignore all evidence to the contrary you can think of one thing as being or equivalent to something else, but that doesn't make you correct, it just means your assertion has absolutely no factual or evidence-derived basis.  In short, it becomes an opinion - which have quite legitimately been compared in simile to a certain orifice of the body.

[Nuke]

To be fair, you need to be delinquent for three years.  Plus if you file for bankruptcy I believe the gov't will not foreclose your property.  So really if you're truly unable to pay property taxes your house isn't just going to be snapped up by the county treasurer.  If you can pay and you've decided not to, then you've been receiving gov't services without paying your due, there are consequences.

i think the government should pay you the balance on the value of the property, after back taxes have been recovered. i dont know if they do this or not. still, if youre in danger of loosing your property because of back taxes, that would probably be a good time to sell it. one of my ex girlfriends (the ugly one) was in a situation where she couldnt pay the taxes on a $500,000 peice of property she inherited. so she sold it. paid off the back taxes, bought her a nice sports car and rented a rather pricey down town apartment.

[Topgun]

http://www.cracked.com/article_18753_the-6-most-creative-abuses-loopholes_p2.html
scroll down to number 2.

[StarSlayer]

http://www.cracked.com/article_18753_the-6-most-creative-abuses-loopholes_p2.html
scroll down to number 2.

Jeez I hope someone in that dynasty someday names their kid Jabba.