[Fury]

Moths ago I read about Oracle making changes to Java's license for linux, I dismissed these news as uninteresting.

Then little over a week ago my dad texts me that bank web application isn't working on their computer. You see, they had an old computer running Lubuntu (Ubuntu with LXDE). The problem was that Chromium was complaining that Java was outdated and potentially unsafe. Which it was, as there have been security fixes since the last version that was still available in ubuntu repositories. Currently Oracle's Java doesn't exist in the repos and you have to use OpenJDK instead.

Well, starting from Java 7, OpenJDK is the official version for linux anyway so I thought no biggie. Wrong, the bank web application only partially works with OpenJDK. So I tell my parents they have two choices. Change their bank to less sucky bank that doesn't use Java, or use the bank's mobile version which doesn't use Java.

At first I though my dad understood why and what's the problem. But later found out that he had contacted the bank and had received troubleshooting instructions via email. As you might already guess, these instructions were only for Windows and OS X. They are adaptable to linux as browser and Java are all the same, but obviously Oracle's Java wasn't installed but OpenJDK.

In the end I was forced to contact the bank myself, after which they stated they do not support linux officially. I thought that would finally let my dad move on.

Wrong. Later same week I receive yet another text message telling me the computer doesn't boot, but gets stuck in POST. A few days later I investigate and notice that the computer has trouble even powering on. Long story short, there's almost identical computer in nearby closet that I've cannibalized for spare parts when some part of another has failed over the years. Well, I ran out of spare parts now and told my parents they need a new computer.

I was planning to give them my old laptop, a macbook actually. I had installed Lubuntu on it and set it up. I was about to leave to my parents when my mom texts me dad had bought a new computer. I was ready to cry as I knew what would wait me.

The computer was Acer Aspire desktop. With PS/2 keyboard and mouse. I thought I had traveled back 10 years in time or something. Plugging the computer in was done in a few minutes. Then I had to do typical OEM **** like selecting language and let the initial setup do its thing. The computer was pretty decent actually, quad-core Core i3, 4GB RAM, Geforce GT330, 1TB HDD and 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium.

Like everyone here knows, OEM computers are bundled with a lot of ****, this was not an exception. I must have uninstalled about half of the software because it was either outdated or completely unnecessary. Remaining half I left to rot in there, otherwise dad would bug me about where's the software that came with the computer. The very first to go was Norton Security with 2 month trial, welcome Microsoft Security Essentials.

And now to the hard part. Installing every bloody windows update. There's the initial batch of updates, reboot. Oh lookie, new updates and updates to updates. Reboot. Huh, new updates again and updates to update's updates. Reboot. Rinse and repeat for god knows how many ****ing hours. Next, hunting for drivers.

I hate Windows. You spend so much time with just sitting there and waiting it downloads and installs updates, then repeat ad nauseam. It doesn't help that parents only have 1Mbit download.

If it had been linux, only one download, install and reboot process would have been enough.

But at last, it's all done. It's parents turn to use the damn thing. When it's my dad's turn, he had trouble even opening desktop shortcut to his bank web application I had so conveniently created for him. There must have been tears in my eyes when I shout at him, use the left mouse button, not the right!

I suppose now I can start counting days when I have to reinstall Windows, system restore is not parent proof. Maybe I'll install Lubuntu on it instead and wait my dad to text me bank web app doesn't work again. Oh and of course they have to try and update Java, Flash and whatever else 3rd party software on their own as there is no centralized update repo like linux has. This is so going to fail.

I can quote Saints Row: The Third here. **** my life.

[S-99]

That is really ****ty for java. I wish oracle had not purchased sun. Openoffice essentially got scrapped, luckily the document foundation came about and libreoffice is in effect...which  uses java. And java is used by so many platforms. This really sucks for linux. What do i use now that may not work in the future entirely in linux? That's what matters.

I share your sympathies with windows. The update process can be quite arduous, not to mention getting all of the drivers. In retrospect, windows is a great os, there's plenty of things that it could do better though (same for linux and macosx).

What i'm curious about is what is oracles agenda for this anticompetitive move? All this will do is limit java usage.

[Fury]

What i'm curious about is what is oracles agenda for this anticompetitive move? All this will do is limit java usage.

See the link in the very first line in my first post.

[Ghostavo]

So why can't you just install Oracle's JDK on linux?

It's not like you have to use the repositories to get it.

All the licensing deal seems to do is prevent the repositories from having the JDK, it doesn't actually prevent it from being used.

[pecenipicek]

OpenJDK sucks donkey balls in any case.

[Kosh]

PS/2 ports on a Core motherboard? How did that happen? I thought the OEM's phased that out years ago.......

[Fury]

So why can't you just install Oracle's JDK on linux?

It's not like you have to use the repositories to get it.

All the licensing deal seems to do is prevent the repositories from having the JDK, it doesn't actually prevent it from being used.

Correct. But how do you suppose it'd be possible to keep it up-to-date automatically? Well, sure you could script a downloader that converts the rpm to deb and installs it, but detecting when it is in fact a newer version would be a lot harder if not even impossible.

[Ghostavo]

You could script something to check the filename of the rpm...

Or, you could just update it when there's a problem. It's not like the bank in question modifies their application to be incompatible with previous versions every time there is a new release.

[Fury]

Or, you could just update it when there's a problem. It's not like the bank in question modifies their application to be incompatible with previous versions every time there is a new release.

No but Java is updated to fix security holes and other issues every now and then. The easier solution is for my parents to change their bank. No Java, no problem.

Although now that they have their brand spanking new computer with Windows 7 in it, they have no reason to. But that is actually a bigger headache to me as Win7 requires more maintenance than linux ever would. I've lost this battle regardless, so I might just live with it.

[S-99]

That article didn't really answer too much. The license got changed after oracle bought sun, and because openjdk is considered mature enough even though it still ****s up. That didn't even scratch the surface of what i was hoping to find out. Wanted the nitty gritty. Oh well, java has always been non free anyway (unless openjdk). Says you can still download the non free java under the new end user license agreement for linux.

Technically that means your parents wont have so much of a problem with java on linux in the future? Perhaps just not so easily attainable through the repos as usual. Oh well, they're running windows again, what a *****. Of course i don't recommend any kind of online banking, but that's not even something i can rip my mom away from (so i don't bother too, luckily she just does it from linux and the extra requirement being a web browswer).

Onto windows...

Have fun with your parents new computer. Updates updates updates. I install my updates all in one round without requiring a restart for installing the rest. I can also batch install/uninstall programs galore (you know which os i use). I'm not trying to gloat with other os superiority, just really really wish windows could do these things which would make it a better os (and it'd give me less of a ***** of time for supporting others who do use it, ms also needs to mandate one program installer to rule them all so this can happen). What's really a bad thing ms did was adding that restart-your-computer-reminder-so-updates-can-take-effect bull**** when updates are finally done being downloaded and or partially installed. It's not like you're average user doesn't turn off their computer at the end of the day anyway.

I do frequently clean out the garbage of an oem install for other people like you have, and it's a pain even separate of the updates. What i do enjoy about it is replacing bloated apps like adobe acrobat reader with evince, ms office trial with libreoffice, defaulting windows to vlc player, blablabla (lighter equivalents that come with no or let you turn off auto updating too and tend to be no nonsense usage).

This however reminds me of the copy of the 18 in one brand oem vista install disc i downloaded. Dell, acer, lenovo, asus, etc (18 brands that this oem disc will work with, and 18 brands that don't really ship reinstall discs with their computers anymore). Handy and legal for those brands of computers that came with an install license for vista (in one disc). After all, i don't like the idea of being stuck with a hard disk parition for reinstalling or having to make your own reinstall disc from it. That's my nitpick though (i recommend getting such an oem install disc for support purposes).

This may sound horrible, but it's really not. Set up a passworded admin account, and set up a standard user account that's either passworded (preferably it is) or not, and leave UAC on. I did this on my dad's, mom's, 8 friends computers. It works fine, it's more secure, really lessens os ****ups on part of the user, much less receiving calls from people needing tech support, and they all like how easy it is as well as understanding why i set it up like that. The standard user account is meant to be used soley, while the admin account is never actually logged into.

And when using a standard user account and something administrative tries to happen or needs to happen. Then the powers that be makes UAC do this...

Screenshot of UAC asking for admin approval for program installation (it's an example and just like how linux does it).
That's really awesome. You have just replicated the basic security found in linux. Do everything administrative on an approval by approval basis from the safer standard user account (restricted permissions, proper use of admin privileges, UAC, and not needing to log in and out constantly is everyones friend).Tell your parents the damn password because they will be installing programs like skype or yahoo messenger, but with guidance can be taught to stay away from malicious softwares (although yahoo messenger isn't terribly great unless a third party client). My dad is 65, and my mom is in her late 50's, and they get along with it just fine as do my friends who are my age (so do it because it means less maintenance dude). And yes, i do believe that users can learn, and learn they do happily with great tutors. Main point:  do this on your parents computer. Good luck

Of course there will be the people stopping in here yelling BAD ADVICE BAD ADVICE USERS ARE STUPID RAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!111111. lulz
You guys will probably laugh at my next project involving having confidence in the user

[Fury]

I actually left my parents accounts admin privileges just to spite them and fate. No, actually I couldn't be arsed to teach them how to use separate admin account. Explaining it to someone who has trouble even opening a desktop shortcut is like having rectal exam. I just wanted to finish with the PC and get the hell out of there. I did burn the Recovery discs just in case. That's right, I had to burn them because the Acer didn't come with any disc from which to reinstall the OS from, you have to burn it yourself. Three DVD's.

That's ****ed up.

[Nuke]

dont ever let windows tell you how to run your system. only install the most recent service pack and disable updates for everything. i follow a few basic rules:

1. disable windows update and automatic updates from any software except firewall and antivirus (both should be 3rd party)

2. install most recent service pack through the standalone installer (the one for it admins that dont want to web instal every computer on their network)

3. only time you should ever use windows update is for finding drivers for "unknown device" (if you built the rig you should know where to get drivers and should never have to use this)

4. disable any multi-user features of the os, secondary logon, remote registry, etc. if your logged in no one else will be able to do likewise, and if your not using the computer turn it off.

5. never store data on the same partition as windows. this is my golden rule, i swear by this. i keep a nice directory structure on my d drive that has everything sorted the way i like it, i never have problems with search because i never need to use it. if the system goes tits up re-instal will only take 30 minutes, if it goes tits up often, make an image after a fresh instal and restore it (im going to start doing this once i have my new rig because i will have my old drives available to store the image). these days i let my os stay put for a year (7 seems to be less likely to bog down than older windowses).

6. if #5 was my golden rule then this is my platinum rule: use as little of windows as possible. 3rd party applications are key. you need a layer of isolation between your os and your applications, and you cant have that when your applications are integrated into the os. the job of the os is to sit between your hardware and your software providing a means to run the latter on the former. it shouldnt also browse your web, play your music, and wipe your ass.

this is what i do, i really dont care what you do. i must reiterate that it is a very bad idea to do what i do without understanding why i do it.

im kinda old skool here but it works. i also kill uac on my computers, i didnt need it 3.1-xp and i dont need it now. il leave it on for other peoples rigs because they are dumb and need to be educated. when it comes right down to it the problems you see with windows are just the problems of the common user reflected back at you. people dont know what common words like format and partition mean, people dont understand what files are safe to delete or change. people dont know that ****ing with drivers or services has widespread consequences. they dont know proper maintenance procedures. all those annoying features of windows, uac, automatic updates, etc are there because people dont know what the **** they are doing. they are reactive measures to make sure users dont screw up their ****. and babying the user with such features is doing nothing for their understanding of computers. it creates a race of mindless cattle.

also from my years as an oem system builder i find the biggest mistake an oem can make is to install the trial version of norton. users think they are protected, then it expires, and they think they are still protected. its quite sad. i suggested we not install it and instead give the user a web installer for the current version of avg and suggest users instal it. this cut our virus related support in half.

tldr: windows is ok if you dont suck as a user

[Fury]

7. Nuke it from orbit. Only way to be sure.

[S-99]

I see what you're getting at in that case with your parents. Just harder to teach (you grew up with them, you know how they are, you sound justified in saying **** it honestly).  But, do get a hold of a windows 7 18 in one oem disc (if one has even been made yet,). They're called aio discs "all in one". When in reality it of course covers a certain list of oems. The vista ultimate aio disc i use was some great work by some chinese guy (it's a really awesome multi-oem disc). It did come with instructions for how to activate with slic v2 bios emulation for computers that didn't come with a copy of windows or came with something like windows xp (to get your windows free), but that's not why i downloaded it. I ignored those instructions by deleting the readme and vista tools (the only thing the readme should have said was "burn to dvd").

Handy for supporting others with no bull**** to uninstall afterwards. This is all legal if you install it on a computer that came with that version of windows since that computer already had a preactivated same version of windows back at the manufacturer (the manufacturer just happened to not ship an install disc). This is quite a black and white issue, not a gray one. It's legality is established as though it were the oem disc you never got from dell, acer, etc. It's illegality is established with the use of slic v2 bios emulation and vista tools for fake activation (something all vista oem discs are vulnerable too, and uhh just don't fake activate for anyone). Oh yeah, said disc was one disc. Sucks you ended up with three, that is ****ed up.

Sort of lengthy, but if you get a hold of one of these awesome aio oem discs, this is so you know what to expect and answers all your questions. I have three friends with laptops that came with vista (2 dells and an acer) where that reinstall partition didn't work, or hard drive died and had to get a new hard drive. And well, they were on linux mint for a little while, but were soon to playing the games in a windows environment they happen to own that aren't compatible with wine yet.

[Nuke]

7. Nuke it from orbit. Only way to be sure.